Intro to Pirouettes: What's your strategy?

[Dresseur]

This is also why I like the the haunches in on a large circle, you can keep the sweep and fluidity of the stride, and you are bringing the hind under more, which helps with collection and will build strength. I would not/do not wait until the canter on the spot is 100% confirmed - you can work on them in tandem. We're talking about the start of the pirouette, not the actual pirouette taking place over 6-8 strides.

That being said, most people try to make the circle too small, and many people mistake slowing down for collection. The horse cannot slow down. And, you can teach a lazy horse to respond to the aids better. So, while you don't have to drill, do a few steps of very quality canter on the spot or whatever your horse can muster and move on. But honestly, canter/transitions should be good at this point, with the horse doing a few steps of canter on the spot and then softly landing the walk. I suspect that if your horse dies in the canter on the spot, your horse is also dying in the transition. I find that doing canter on the spot actually helps horses that have a tendency to drop out from under you because you can move them right back out again. I will do it several times on a circle to test the response and then do a transition to walk. So, don't abandon the canter on the spots, just be quicker about moving the horse back off and make sure that when you do, the horse doesn't just surge forward over the shoulders, but that the balance stays up.

[galopp]

The thing is that that there are good points of use of travers circles can also have a negative of too much bending, which can truncate the purity of the canter.

Agree about the quality of walk, canter, almost walk, canter, walk, etc....horse in front of the leg. The problematic thing that horses get stuck behind the hand (to strong in some way, often too compressed), and then they aren't in front of the leg (they end up climbing or over-rotating).

As an aside, how many riders start the CP with a walk P, transition to canter, a few steps, and walk. Helps with rider timing of their leg.

[Dresseur]

I use that exercise, w piri right, walk straight, walk piri left, left lead canter, collect and walk. Then repeat walk piri left, walk straight, walk piri right, right lead canter, collect and walk - but, even the w piris, I don't shut down. I always school them pretty large - it makes it much less difficult for the horse to step out. Many people seem to be in a big hurry to get them small, IMO this is a mistake. I'll make them smaller before I go to a show but then it's always back to larger, looking for the quality of the step.

I also agree with the chances of overbending the horse in haunches in on the circle. You have to make sure that the hinds describe a smaller circle, and that the shoulders describe a larger circle... and make sure that the neck is straight out of the withers, inside flexion, not overbending the neck.

[galopp]

Certainly the first part of school WP (because there is no air time) is to keep the mobility/regularity of walk, largeness. If the horse learns to cheat in collecting the walk it easily creates the need to push to keep it, which means the likelihood of lateral walk increases. And yes, walk is the last gait to be truly collected. But WP also teaches the rider to be able to alternate the legs, to 'speak to the hind legs' and to stay in front of the inside leg. The regularity of the gait in the exercise IS everything. It is where a higher scores should NOT be given to a rider who rides a WP when the test asks for a toH instead; the exercises are linear imho. And if one cannot do the WP exercise well, or do all the lateral movements on a curved line, truly collect the horse within the other gaits, then CP will be problematic in some manner. Two exercises are the relatively the 'ultimate hh': piaffe, and CP.

[HafDressage]

As an aside, how many riders start the CP with a walk P, transition to canter, a few steps, and walk. Helps with rider timing of their leg.

This was the way that my former trainer tried to introduce the piros and I can tell you that was a disaster. If your horse is a minimalist, this might help later, but I can tell you from experience, this won't help out in the beginning.

[HafDressage]

I suspect that if your horse dies in the canter on the spot, your horse is also dying in the transition. I find that doing canter on the spot actually helps horses that have a tendency to drop out from under you because you can move them right back out again. I will do it several times on a circle to test the response and then do a transition to walk. So, don't abandon the canter on the spots, just be quicker about moving the horse back off and make sure that when you do, the horse doesn't just surge forward over the shoulders, but that the balance stays up.

The downward transitions are pretty good at this point, but dying in the transition was a problem I had to address over the past year. I don't know if dying was as accurate a term as slamming on the breaks. My boy was started by some western people and let me tell you, the stop is there when necessary. SO, over the last year, there have been a lot of discussions about keeping the hind end working as I come into the transition. I think it takes time and good exercises to build the necessary strength for the piros and that is where we are at with it right now.

[Dresseur]

I had a gut reaction that your boy may have been one to slam on the brakes!
I wouldn't abandon the canter on the spots (not saying you are, but it WILL help with the piri work if you start getting more honest responses there too). Think of it not as a transition to bring it down to, think of it as boosting it up and keeping the hind working for a step or two. That way it doesn't feel like drilling, you are just putting gears into the canter. But really, for the piri work, ESPECIALLY if your guy is lazy, I would not get complicated in the exercises for the working piri - (obviously, this is without seeing a video) but my gut says traver on a circle will allow you to access the hind and keeping it big will keep the hind moving. You can take this into the exercise that I mentioned in my first post - traver down the long wall, haunches in in a very, very large demi volte, hp back to the wall and simple or flying change, or continue cc until you go across diagonal and back on the true lead.

One you start being able to tighten these up a bit - the exercise in the 4th level test is a good one, diagonal, a few steps of piri, leave in the opposite diagonal - basically making a v shape. Helps the rider not let the horse go splat up front too...

[Ponichiwa]

Some thoughts, Hafdressage...

How often do you school towards pirouettes from a medium or extended canter? You may need to capture more of that forward energy and channel it upwards to keep the pirouette canter going. I like doing 2-3 pieces (bursts?) of medium canter and 2-3 steps of collected canter down the long side.

Alternatively, divide the arena into 6 pieces: short side, m-e, e-f, short side, k-b, b-h and alternate between medium and collected canter. Try to put a medium canter in the short side and use the bend to encourage the hind leg to strike further up underneath the horse.

Another thing to try: walk pirouette to canter, but transition to medium canter along a straight line (no turning) from the walk pirouette. You can also do rein-back, medium canter, halt, rein back.

All of the above are trying to connect the dots to your horse that he has to sit down on his hind end and stay there as you change the stride length. Troubleshoot by staying aware of any attempts to change the tempo or the connection. If he gets quicker instead of longer in the mediums, you may find that it helps to school medium canter in a leg yield or in a shoulder in to help him figure out how to step further underneath himself.

None of the above are strictly pirouette exercises, but all will help with the pirouettes.

[HafDressage]

Thanks for the thoughts Ponichiwa!

I did a few super collected - mediumish - super collected - mediumish - walk - exercises the other day. We were very successful to the right (his stronger side) and less successful to the left (weaker side). I will try some more of these exercises as soon as I can get back out in the grass and do some more serious work. The arena footing at my barn is a mess (moving to a new barn soon partly for that reason), so I'm pretty cautious about doing too much collected stuff in there and the grass is still to wet. As soon as I get back out there, I'm going to try a bit more and I'll report back.

In the meantime, yesterday we did our second jumping lesson, which I'm hoping will help us build strength on the left hind. He was wild and got in big trouble after he got too frisky after a jump and tried to unload me. Bad fat haflinger.

I'm also hoping that a little hill work once it dries out in combination with jumping and strength building collected work will get us where we need to be.