The club foot argument.

[Chisamba]

I know that there are various considered ideals about the actual weight of contact in the rein. From " the horse should stay in position with a draped rein"

to " you must have enough weight in each the rein to influence the whole horse"

i also know that when you start a horse and a finished horse should have a different feel.

However, what do you consider a good weight in the reins?
does it change from horse to horse?
if you have a horse that is naturally a leaner versus a horse that is naturally a curler do you still strive to finish the horse with the same weight in the rein?

How much change of weight do you feel you should use to effect a half halt, or bend/turn/ yield.

i guess you could liken it to holding a cup of coffee, a one pound can of beans or a five pound bag of flour

[Dresseur]

Very interesting subject. A couple of things that I think of -

1. different riders perceive weight differently. A weak rider (musculature only) will feel that a horse with 3lbs of weight in the reins has 10lbs and a strong rider will think that same 3lbs is much less.

2. Horses also have a preference, some seem to go best with a firmer, steadier contact, some tend to go better on a lighter contact.

3. Depending on the horse, you do have to change up the feel of the contact. So, for instance, a horse that wants to duck, I purposefully take a firmer contact and drive the horse up and take quick upward half halts and larger releases to bring the neck out. A horse that wants to lean, I don't let them take a firm contact at all, but I keep the transitions and half halts coming so that they carry themselves.

4. Contact and firmness/weight in the reins does not happen in a vacuum. The hind end and how the horse uses it's back to bridge to the front end has a lot to do with weight and perceived weight in the reins. The stiffest horses that I have ridden, have tended to be the lightest because they were posing and there was zero connection.

That brings me to this particular line of thinking...
I'm ok with weight in the reins, sometimes a lot, when the horse is learning something new, or is struggling with something. However, the horse is not allowed to pull, or get dead in the contact. If the contact remains elastic, I am ok with weight - because I know that when the contact is elastic, my hh will go through and I can affect the hinds and change the weight in the reins.

In ordinary riding, I strive for about a pound or two, again, as long as it remains elastic. I don't subscribe to lighter is always better - because light can be frozen. I want to know if can I do something with the contact - will the horse follow my inside rein, will a hh "squish" the horse together, will the horse yield when I touch the rein. If I don't have those things, no matter if it's ounces or pounds in the reins, I can't affect the horse's hind legs or balance and therefore I can't change the feel in the reins

[Tsavo]

1. However, what do you consider a good weight in the reins?

The horse takes the contact forward but it is always retrievable (i.e., not pulling and taking HHs).

2. does it change from horse to horse?

I think good trainers can produce similar results on many horses.

3. if you have a horse that is naturally a leaner versus a horse that is naturally a curler do you still strive to finish the horse with the same weight in the rein?

I think good trainers do that.

4. How much change of weight do you feel you should use to effect a half halt, or bend/turn/ yield.

Very little. The horse learns the HH and it can be reduced to almost a ritual done mostly on seat.

[mari]

I like Dresseur's post.

My horse likes a firm contact. He does better dressage with quite a lot of weight in the reins, and certainly jumps better. He is elastic and responsive in that firm contact, but you need to be strategic and diligent in your HHs and transitions to maintain that elasticity.

Interestingly, I'm now forced to try and retrain him to be lighter in the contact. I ruptured a disk in my neck last year, and have started riding gently fairly recently. The weight in the reins that was previously comfortable for me is now unmanageable, so it's a bit of a battle at the moment...

[khall]

But are they in self carriage when there is a firm contact with the rein?

I am of the light contact practicer, when a horse has the training up to the point of riding with a drape in the rein. That is why I liked auditing the Col from Saumur so much, he really emphasized giving big both rein releases to keep the horse open in the throat latch and longer in the neck. Often because the horses were being compressed by their riders causing tension.

[Dresseur]

Khall, I think in moments when there is more firmness, no, they are not in self-carriage - the rider is helping to support the horse in that instance. I don't think that the rider should be satisfied with constant heavy, dead pressure. The goal should always be to have the horse as light as it can be, but I do think that some horses prefer and go better with definite contact and some prefer less. That's why I think that the test is always can/does a hh go through, will the horse follow the rein. I'm just saying that I think it's ok to accept a heavier contact in certain instances when the horse is struggling or new to a movement.

[khall]

Dresseur yes I can see that. I have just rarely ridden one that required a heavier contact, though I am helping to ride one now that will do this. She is a Perch/TB X that came here not having a clue about correct contact and was very crooked and did not know how to stretch down. Now that she has learned how to stretch down that is all she wants to do! Getting heavy in the process. We are in the training regime now of getting her stronger behind and having some understanding of carrying more, not easy with a big moving big long mare that is not light on her feet.

[Kathy Johnson]

I knew an instructor who told her to ride with 25 pounds of weight in the reins. I am not kidding. I brought out my son's weights to show the students what 25 pounds felt like.

I'm another person with disc issues and do not ever want heavy contact or pulling or hanging. Nor do I want no contact. I've always been a fan of the French school, toujours la main très légère.

I am looking for an elastic, electric connection where I can feel the horse's tongue move and he can feel my ring finger move. I want the connection both ways so we can talk to each other. I like when I can feel the horse's hooves in my hands and the movement of the horse's leg goes through my hands and arms to my shoulders that causes a slight vibration of the joints of my arms and shoulders.

[galopp]

There is a difference between the connection of riding a horse evenly into both reins, what happens after a half halt, and when the horse learns to 'stand on the outside rein' when it is developing collection/lightness/greater self carriage. A horse cannot stay in position/complete self carriage early on, it is a result of developing balance and self carriage.

Certainly a baby/greener horse evenly into both reins with minimal longitudinal flexion (basically up and open and active) actually has more to share with the finished horse than when the horse is developing greater impulsion/amplitude where there might be a 'tighter strung bow' (i.e. in third/fourth levels).

More than a couple of pounds would be alot imho, on the finished horse it truly is by the weight of the reins (and then we must always talk about which bit as well. Steadily into a snaffle (which acts on the corners of the lips and keeps the horse up and open) is different than a steady torque on a weymouth (which takes the horse lower and closed) and which should NEVER be steadily torqued and never more than 45 degrees.

What holds the connection? The upper arms hanging as part of the trunk, so it is the spine/the posture of the rider, not the hand per se. Does it change between horses? Imho yes, some are simply more athletic and easier to maintain balance, and some are more 'muscle packets'. Imho there is no natural 'curler', but there are horses with little to no neck and very thin throat latches and longer neck (i.e. arabs/friesans) which offer logntidinal flexion way too easily; and those horses must be ridden for a longer period of time with a more open posture. If a horse tends to lean, then it is up to the rider to use more half halts and not participate in that loss of balance. Our actions create their reactions; if we want to change their reactions we must change ours.

It is up to the teacher to illustrate what a hh (posterior tilting of the pelvis for a step) should create in the hands. So that the rider understands what the feeling should be. What we too often see are riders driving and holding, or creating precipitous flexion/parotid glands outside the jaw/compressed outlines (vertical/btv/even third vertebrae the highest point), and horse riders will create more in their hand.

Imho all horses should have a steady connection, it is like holding a sail in the hand and the wind into it comes from the fluffing with the leg/seat. There are times where there is greater wind and softer breazes. But the horse must maintain its open/ifV posture/and be ridden 'in position' (seeing inside eyelashes).

Horses do not duck behind a connection if the rider has taken time to educate the horse to first 'simply' being up and open, and evenly into both hands, this means going large, slowly introducing rein effects. Then riding large curved lines, developing mobility of the jaw, and slowly allowing longitudinal flexion which comes from lateral flexibility. Vertical hh's purpose is to sustain the proper balance and activity. And IF the horse is in proper balance, mobile in the jaw, then it can be asked to lengthen the outline and 'chew the reins from the hand' forward/down/out.

Once the horse will follow the hand, be accordion like, and start to shorten the base of support, and be more laterally flexible then the rider can start to offer uberstreichen moments (giving the inside rein to test greater collections/self carriage) at the end of first and early second (depending upon the rider and the horse). IF the rider instead saws on the mouth/poses the horse behind the hand it creates false lightness (and these horse will not lengthen the outline as well), just as a horse which is ridden ldr will continue to lean and there are NO moments of giving the rein at all.

Imho the only thing that should yield in a hh is the greater folding of the hind leg joints, but a hh is for a STEP, if it is sustained for strides it is the neck/jaw that will yield and the effect on impulsion/amplitude is lost.

The type of horse should make little difference, we must ride the horse in the manner we want to create. That means being far quicker with hh, action and allowing time for a reaction (rewarding what we want almost before it happens). First in balance, up and open, and then through the stages of training. Unfortunately in today's world too many think that fdo is a beginning stage vs a test of a correct develop of balance/lateral flexibility/mobility of the jaw; if it is used too early the horse will not develop self carriage and will be heavier in the hand. mho

[HafDressage]

Funny you should start this thread, I just stumbled across this post on facebook and it seems like an interesting add to the discussion. Would be curious to hear thoughts on it.

https://warneyswhip.me/2017/04/05/this- ... lightness/


For me, some horses will have a stronger feel in the mouth than others, but until your horse is fully trained at GP, then there should be contact of some variety and I always try to think light, but steady. So, I totally agree with Gallops statement of:

There is a difference between the connection of riding a horse evenly into both reins, what happens after a half halt, and when the horse learns to 'stand on the outside rein' when it is developing collection/lightness/greater self carriage. A horse cannot stay in position/complete self carriage early on, it is a result of developing balance and self carriage.

Also, I feel that conformation and "way of going" affects contact a lot. If your horse has a very strong hind leg (especially one with a good push forward), I almost always find that they need/offer stronger contact. My haflinger is a big boy with a big neck, but is relatively light in the contact and it's because he isn't a huge horse with a ton of pushing power. Also, he's built uphill, so that helps as well. With him I am constantly trying to achieve more contact, not less contact.

Overall, I think there isn't one "correct" contact for all horses, but variations of correct contact depending on the horse.

[Kathy Johnson]

Acceptance of the bridle is an obvious but good way to gauge how much contact is needed for each individual. Issues in the bridle are clues to what is going on with the rest of the horse. Problems with contact are usually symptoms, rather than the problem.

For instance if a horse is throwing his head up and yanking, then the contact, no matter how light, feels too much for the horse who usually does not understand the concept of back to front riding, or how to move from leg to hand. Heavier contact won't fix it.

If the horse is consistently behind the contact, then often the rider has used too much hand in the past and the horse is hiding back there, hoping he's found a place that will satisfy the rider. Horses will go where it's easiest for their conformation.

Some horses will be perfectly "posed" on the bit, tooling around in truckling subservience, a show ring rider's dream with great scores for submission. But the contact is inelastic and invariable, usually the result of devices such as drawreins. This is where the stretching circle and uberstreichen can tell the real story.

Sometimes horses stay consistently and quietly above the bit, quite falsely light because the rider is happy with the light feel but does not have the wherewithal to engage the hindquarters in a way that will allow the back to release and swing, so the horse can become truly round.

Horses who hang and pull on the bit are "getting the idea," to reach for the bit, but usually don't have the strength to stay in an sort of self carriage. They are best ridden by riders who understand the horse is always reaching for the bit, but never quite getting there, a rider who knows how to give frequently and at the correct time.

In general, and this is a subject I've been thinking on for a long time, so see what you think, and if you agree or disagree. In general, I've found that horses who evade contact by going above the bit as a default are more likely to have front foot and leg issues. Horses who pull down or go behind the bit are more likely to have hind leg issues.

[Chisamba]

Kathy, thank you, that is exactly the kind of thoughtful response i was hoping to hear. How others have evolved after riding a lot of horses, in their feeling about contact. I find your thoughts on front leg versus hind leg issues very interesting.

You did not mention the horse that hangs on one side and avoids the other, thoughts on that?

[galopp]

..... but usually don't have the strength to stay in an sort of self carriage. .....

.......In general, I've found that horses who evade contact by going above the bit as a default are more likely to have front foot and leg issues. Horses who pull down or go behind the bit are more likely to have hind leg issues.

A couple of thoughts. There is a difference between self carriage in terms of collection, and a horse staying up/open/active (very much ifV). All horses can be up and open, greenies/etc, they might not be able to sustain it (and should not be asked to) for long periods of time. And if a horse is being asked for greater collection, the horse must be allowed to be to be an accordion, moving in and out of it.

For me, the horses who evade contact (hollowing or curling) are out of balance, but it is 99% the fault of the rider's aids/tact/or timing.mho

[kande50]

For me it's a humane issue, and as soon as I realized that the contact didn't need to be strong/heavy I couldn't wait to learn how to train my horse using a much lighter contact.

[Chisamba]

Do we agree that contact means a connection that is sufficient to improve the balance of the horse?

[khall]

IMO contact means a connection that changes the posture of the horse. It is this change in posture that leads to better balance with time and training and development of the horse through various exercises.

I like the details of training that lead to the big picture. Why I enjoyed riding with Mark Russell so much, he was all about the minute details.

[galopp]

I would say it is to sustain or improve the balance and bearing, depending upon what is needed.

[kande50]

My own theory is that strong contact is another one of those smoke and mirrors things that have developed to allow riders to make it look like they (horse and rider) are well enough balanced to be able to sustain a steady, soft, light contact long before they actually can. And as long as judges will accept that kind of contact, and the accompanying braced, unbalanced movement, and give it decent scores, then of course riders will continue to believe that it's what they should be doing.

IMO, there's are a lot of smoke and mirrors shortcuts that are now accepted as the way it should be done, even though they're not consistent with what the odg's have written, nor what the FEI rules describe, nor what any thinking human being would believe if they hadn't gotten so used to seeing ugly shortcuts presented as acceptable training.

http://eclectic-horseman.com/the-defini ... n-the-bit/

[Kathy Johnson]

You did not mention the horse that hangs on one side and avoids the other, thoughts on that?

A unilateral vs. bilateral issue. In other words, weaker in one hind leg than the other. I think it's going to be hind leg and not front, as front foot would cause head throwing, the hind foot more hanging. If one hind leg is pushing harder than the other, the horse is not going to want to bring the weak hind leg up and/or under as far. This would make the weaker side of the horse stiff or short and unable to bend as well in that direction. So the rein he hangs (always the same rein in either direction) will point to the weaker hind leg.

I.e. your horse chronically travelling "banana left" will hang on the right rein in either direction. This would point to the right hind that would have more trouble engaging.

Green horses are exempted unless it becomes a chronic way of going. Some are all over the place with contact in the beginning. But in general, I have found a young horse who naturally accepts the contact from the start tends to be a very balanced and sound individual. And sometimes a duck is a duck. Sometimes it is bad teeth and poor bit and bridle fit. But usually we have those things taken care of first. I have met two horses with something that used to be called lampas in the old days. It is extra flesh in the pallet and lips that can cause real problems with bitting. They used to burn it off with a hot poker.

[kande50]

This would make the weaker side of the horse stiff or short and unable to bend as well in that direction. So the rein he hangs (always the same rein in either direction) will point to the weaker hind leg.

This is interesting, because everyone who looks at my horse thinks that he's short on his right hind, which I'm thinking would mean that the RH is the weaker one?

The way he uses his hinds looks pretty even to me, but if he's shorter on either I'd say it's his left one, because that's the side he's stiffer on and the rein he'll take more contact on.

But hinds aside, my own theory is that the problem is that he's "tied in" somewhere in or around his right front (the clubby one), and the problem doesn't originate in either hind. It certainly could be in one or both of his hinds, or his back, or his withers, or anywhere really. But whatever the problem, he takes a contact with the left rein easily, but not so much with the right.

I have met two horses with something that used to be called lampas in the old days. It is extra flesh in the pallet and lips that can cause real problems with bitting. They used to burn it off with a hot poker.

Arrggghhhh.

I've been looking in horses' mouths since I realized that my club footed horse only has cuspids on one side of this mouth. He has a well developed top and bottom cuspid on the right side, but none the left. So I looked in a friends' one up/one down horse's mouth, and that horse had well developed cuspids on the opposite side of his up hoof (instead of the same side like my horse). So now I need to find more club footed horses so that I can look at their teeth.

[galopp]

It is the rider who sustains a posture and are balanced enough to allow a steady connection. With greener horses the problem is that they cannot sustain it for periods of time with our weight, and are put out of balance if the rider makes precipitous attempts at longitudinal flexion. First the horse is just allowed to be up/open/and steadily going (not over tempo); attempts at precipitous flexion cause losses of balance and willingness to go. So, it is not smoke and mirrors, it is rider alignment/tact/timing which allows methodical development.

I do agree that it is judges which not only to accept, but reward, that kind of precipitous flexion, low closed postures, and the accompanying braced, unbalanced over tempo movement by making comments like needs to be rounder in training level tests (where horses are only supposed to accept the bit, not be on the bit). What is rewarded will be copied (be it square saddle pads or compressed postures. There has never been a period of time where so many horses are accused of not going forward, shying, etc and it is a direct off spring of the compressed/low postures because students think it gives them 'control'.

For sure such lack of bearing/balance is not consistent with the FEI rules describe, "nor what any thinking human being would believe if they hadn't gotten so used to seeing ugly shortcuts presented as acceptable training".

Imho horses do not hang on one side and avoids the other, it is riders which do the hanging and play to lack of balance. Although injury may play into unequal contact/etc, it is mostly a human characteristic. As riders we constantly have to evaluate the balance onto four feet, yet we think in two dimensions, but for horses it is not just unilateral vs. bilateral issue (straight into both hands), but also diagonal (the later is the most important in straightness and therefore lightness and self carriage). So we have to ask what basic exercise is not being used to success, and it often goes back to the lack of basic rein/leg/weight technique, which also has to address the rider's alignment/tact/timing.

With greenies I find most to be quite equal (if they are methodically started on the ground), it is not until they are ridden some moths that they become crooked. That speaks to the rider's effect (unless thehorse has been injured/etc); and if we can find an opposite handed rider (i.e. left if we are right handed), the horses remain straighter. mho

[Kathy Johnson]

The way he uses his hinds looks pretty even to be, but if he's shorter on either I'd say it's his left one, because that's the side he's stiffer on and the rein he'll take more contact on.

That one is pretty easy to check out, either from the side or on video. Going straight, one hind leg will track up or over track the front foot more than the other one. It can be at walk or trot, but is usually more apparent in trot. You can also check out hoof prints on the ground for straightness.

In response to galopp, I think rider can certainly cause a horse to become crooked. But a lot of horses do not track straight on the longe line. Whether a prior rider caused it, injury had a play or the horse is just not as strong in one hind leg as the other. Right or left handedness is fairly common in horses from birth.

[kande50]

That one is pretty easy to check out, either from the side or on video. Going straight, one hind leg will track up or over track the front foot more than the other one. It can be at walk or trot, but is usually more apparent in trot. You can also check out hoof prints on the ground for straightness.

Interestingly, my club footed horse tracks up evenly (if "tracking up" means that the hinds step the same distance in a forward direction relative to the fronts), but his hinds don't land exactly behind the fronts, because he displaces both medially/laterally to 'frame" the club foot.

It makes sense, because if the club foot shoulder is weaker, or tied in somehow, then it would need more support, and the way at least some horses seem to do that is by bringing the diagonal hind under more and the same side hind out (laterally) more so that the tracks of the hinds frame the track of the club.

One up/one down horses do it too, but probably just not as noticeably.

Dr Ridgeway has a video that shows this at the walk, but I can see it on video at the trot, too.

Right or left handedness is fairly common in horses from birth.

And while riders can make it better or worse, they can't actually fix it.

I also wonder how many of the soundness issues that develop in horses are caused by trying to make them travel straight when they aren't?

It's not easy for me to leave it alone because I ride much straighter horses too, and prefer riding a straighter horse, but I've backed off considerably on trying to make my club footed horse straighter because I think it's possible that continuing may not be a great idea when it comes to long term soundness.

I also wonder whether horses that are considered straighter actually aren't, because when we teach them to track up more evenly the crookedness just appears elsewhere?

[Tsavo]

I also wonder how many of the soundness issues that develop in horses are caused by trying to make them travel straight when they aren't?

It's not easy for me to leave it alone because I ride much straighter horses too, and prefer riding a straighter horse, but I've backed off considerably on trying to make my club footed horse straighter because I think it's possible that continuing may not be a great idea when it comes to long term soundness.

I also wonder whether horses that are considered straighter actually aren't, because when we teach them to track up more evenly the crookedness just appears elsewhere?

I think straightness or ability to straighten is a barometer of soundness, not the other way around.

I would think you would have to ride a club-footed horse especially straight to avoid lameness, no? Maybe these horses will only stay sound if riding straight.

I agree a horse can be tracking straight and not correct in the body (counterflexed, etc.). But that is not inevitable and must be corrected. Just because it pops up when straightening doesn't mean you allow it. If you allow it then I think that is asking for unbalance and future lameness.

[kande50]

I think straightness or ability to straighten is a barometer of soundness, not the other way around.

I think that would depend on whether one considers an asymmetrical horse unsound. And even then, how asymmetrical would a horse need to be before he was considered unsound? Do you think a club footed horse would be considered unsound? How about a one up/one down horse?

I would think you would have to ride a club-footed horse especially straight to avoid lameness, no? Maybe these horses will only stay sound if riding straight.

Possibly, so then how to get them straight?

Multiple odg's have written that horses can't be made straight but can only be made straighter, so that tells me that if a slightly asymmetrical horses can't be made straight then a considerably asymmetrical horse likely can't either.

I agree a horse can be tracking straight and not correct in the body (counterflexed, etc.).

It doesn't seem to be a matter of counterflexed so much as a wavy arc instead of a smooth one from head to tail. So as the rider moves parts of the horse into alignment other parts move out. An example would be when the rider gets the horse aligned so that his fronts and hinds are on the same two tracks and his nose is aligned, but then the neck moves out of alignment (by twisting). Or when the head, neck, and shoulders become aligned, but then the hinds move out of alignment.

[Tsavo]

I think straightness or ability to straighten is a barometer of soundness, not the other way around.

I think that would depend on whether one considers an asymmetrical horse unsound. And even then, how asymmetrical would a horse need to be before he was considered unsound? Do you think a club footed horse would be considered unsound? How about a one up/one down horse?

I think unevenness, over time, can become a lameness if worked over sufficient time.

I would think you would have to ride a club-footed horse especially straight to avoid lameness, no? Maybe these horses will only stay sound if riding straight.

Possibly, so then how to get them straight?

Multiple odg's have written that horses can't be made straight but can only be made straighter, so that tells me that if a slightly asymmetrical horses can't be made straight then a considerably asymmetrical horse likely can't either.

Is the horse sound? Even? If so then you can ride them straight for their fitness level.

I don't understand the semantic argument of straight versus straighter and I would have to see the ODG quote verbatim to comment.

I agree a horse can be tracking straight and not correct in the body (counterflexed, etc.).

It doesn't seem to be a matter of counterflexed so much as a wavy arc instead of a smooth one from head to tail. So as the rider moves parts of the horse into alignment other parts move out. An example would be when the rider gets the horse aligned so that his fronts and hinds are on the same two tracks and his nose is aligned, but then the neck moves out of alignment (by twisting). Or when the head, neck, and shoulders become aligned, but then the hinds move out of alignment.

Yes I agree there are many flavors of incorrect despite footfall being correct. I do not agree that a rider can't fix that. The twisting of the barrel usually means the horse's barrel is not rotated in the correct direction.

[galopp]

Since a horse is trapezoid, wider behind, then straightness is achieved through lateral flexibility and axial rotation. It creates a horse which is more rectangular. Tracking up means that the horse steps into the hoof prints of the forefeet with the hind feet (this should be minimal except in collection), over tracking (produced by freedom and sustaining energy and thrust) means the horse is stepping beyond the forefoot prints with those of the hind feet (depending upon whether it is working trot, medium, and extensions).

[khall]

I have wondered if you can straighten a serious club footed horse much at all. Because of the shoulders in a club footed horse are out of wack (one shoved up and other dropped down) from their grazing stance. This is so out of balance how much can lateral work change them? And if it does, will the club foot change/resolve?

[Tsavo]

I have wondered if you can straighten a serious club footed horse much at all. Because of the shoulders in a club footed horse are out of wack (one shoved up and other dropped down) from their grazing stance. This is so out of balance how much can lateral work change them? And if it does, will the club foot change/resolve?

Don't non-club-footed horses also graze with one foot forward???

Club-footed horses are not necessarily out of whack if you ride them for straightness. They can be sound and even in footfall and in the bridle despite the grazing stance.

I also think there is a chicken-egg thing. I think the grazing stance is due to the shoulder asymmetry, not the other way around.

I am not sure if anyone has ever cured a club foot.

[Tsavo]

Does anyone know of any upper level or FEI horses with club foot?

[khall]

Tsavo: Don't non-club-footed horses also graze with one foot forward???

Club-footed horses are not necessarily out of whack if you ride them for straightness. They can be sound and even in footfall and in the bridle despite the grazing stance.

I also think there is a chicken-egg thing. I think the grazing stance is due to the shoulder asymmetry, not the other way around.

I am not sure if anyone has ever cured a club foot.

Tsavo I disagree with most of what you have written. A club footed horse (now I am talking a pretty severe club footed horse) where the shoulders are definitely out of alignment when looking from above/behind the horse I just do not see how you could straighten them. When they are that severe, they graze with an extreme split legged stance that perpetuates the problem. I know because I cared for an Arab g that had a pretty severe club foot for 15 yrs, he ALWAYS grazed with LF foreword and RF back. RF was of course the club foot. I also had a TB mare that had a milder club foot that also grazed in the same pattern. Her RF was the high foot. The Arabian had very mismatched shoulders, don't really remember if my TB did or not.

The grazing stance CAUSES the shoulder asymmetry and club foot, how do I know? Because I have seen it happen with 2 foals I have bred (my farrier agrees with me on this too). One foal at 3 months was able to go into a glue on shoe with wedge that cured her clubby tendencies and changed her grazing stance. What happens is you have fast growing foals with shorter necks in proportion to the length of leg, especially these high necked horses like Arabs and my Luso X filly. They graze with extreme split stance causing the muscles to tighten on the leg that is back which draws the boney column out of alignment. The wedge allows for the muscles to relax and the foal to learn not to graze in such a manner breaking that habit. They wear the wedge for a week and the cuff for another week, that is all it took for my one filly. She is now 9 with very much matching angles yet that RF is boxy compared to the LF. My Luso filly though was more extreme and the cuff/wedge did not work for her. So at 5 months she had check ligament surgery to correct her very extreme club foot. She was stalled for 2 months and kept wrapped and quiet until everything healed and she had a toe cap on to protect that hoof. She now at 3 has even angles on the front but again the RF (which was her leg she grazed with back) is boxy compared to the LF. Shoulders are very even on her as well.

You cannot cure a club foot on a mature horse, but you absolutely can with a foal. Yearling can be hit or miss. Now these are all acquired club feet, not genetic club feet. Those are usually treated when the foal is born with tetracycline I believe to relax the tendons in the leg and allow for the boney column to drop back into alignment. Sometimes check ligament surgery is also called for.

As far as sound yes, I do think a severe club footed horse can be somewhat sound. I do not think they can be 100% even though when you have an extreme club foot. The Arab had trouble with the R lead in the canter because of the club foot. They often will be unlevel in their movement especially in the trot unless you have a good farrier who can address it with pads (believe it or not my farrier pads up the club foot to raise the shoulder up and level the horse out. He specializes in park Arabs and ASBs. He sees a fair bit of club feet in his work.

[kande50]

I have wondered if you can straighten a serious club footed horse much at all. Because of the shoulders in a club footed horse are out of wack (one shoved up and other dropped down) from their grazing stance. This is so out of balance how much can lateral work change them? And if it does, will the club foot change/resolve?

I had the check ligament surgery on mine, which improved the club (I think), but it's still a club. I've also been working on straightness training since he was a weanling, but the maximum amount of work he gets is about an hour a day and then he goes right back to moving the way he wants to move for the other 23 hours, so I'd say no, that a club footed horse can't be significantly straightened.

I also restricted mine from grazing when he was a weanling and I realized he was developing a club, and mowed his grass and fed it in a box that he had to reach down into so that he couldn't get into the stance to eat.

My own impression, which I'm never convinced is 100% correct, is that his shoulders are the same height but one is flatter (less muscled, and possibly set in medially more). But I think the biggest problem is that the left diagonal (the one that includes the club foot) is shorter than the right, although that's likely just a symptom, or adaptation for what I think could be a problem in his right (club) shoulder.

All of my horses and mules are barefoot now, and we ride several of them enough so that they self trim most of the time, and none have perfectly symmetrical or matching hooves, which I think is a reliable indication that their bodies are not symmetrical. None of them are as asymmetrical as the club footed one, and of course, some are more asymmetrical than others, but when I really start looking at horses who wear their own hooves (aren't shod), they're all asymmetrical to some degree.

[kande50]

The grazing stance CAUSES the shoulder asymmetry and club foot, how do I know? Because I have seen it happen with 2 foals I have bred (my farrier agrees with me on this too). One foal at 3 months was able to go into a glue on shoe with wedge that cured her clubby tendencies and changed her grazing stance. What happens is you have fast growing foals with shorter necks in proportion to the length of leg, especially these high necked horses like Arabs and my Luso X filly. They graze with extreme split stance causing the muscles to tighten on the leg that is back which draws the boney column out of alignment. The wedge allows for the muscles to relax and the foal to learn not to graze in such a manner breaking that habit. They wear the wedge for a week and the cuff for another week, that is all it took for my one filly. She is now 9 with very much matching angles yet that RF is boxy compared to the LF.

That is good evidence Khali, but the reason I think it's still theory is because 1) the treatments don't work for some foals even when started early, and 2) some foals start to develop a club but then it never progresses beyond a certain point with or without treatment, which makes it very hard to pin down whether treatments work, or not.

So the problem with evaluating treatments is that we can't know whether a horse would have progressed further, or not.

The other problem is that even those horses who receive early treatment and are "cured" still retain that "boxy" front hoof, which makes me think that the treatments may help the hoof, but don't actually fix the issue in their bodies that may have started the hoof on the path to a club in the first place.

My horse's club could also be described as boxy, because it no longer has the bulge at the base of P2 that is characteristic of a club. But, he's still crooked, which would be obvious to any knowledgeable rider who got on him and tried to straighten him. Not that he goes counterbent or anything (although he'd prefer to), but he's just much less willing to take a contact on the right rein than the left, and much less able to shift his weight to the outside right front (when bent left) than to the outside left front (when bent right).

(believe it or not my farrier pads up the club foot to raise the shoulder up and level the horse out. He specializes in park Arabs and ASBs. He sees a fair bit of club feet in his work.

Esco Buff (farrier) has worked on club feet some, and he too, thinks that the club should be lifted because he thinks the reason for the club is that the horse's front quarter, or at least his club diagonal, is "functionally short". I tried it on my horse when he was young, but he was too active so just ripped off anything I put on his fronts, and usually stepped on himself in the process. So I decided that he wasn't a good candidate for having anything attached to his fronts, so just kept him trimmed short and let him tear around like the maniac he is. It's a miracle he's still sound--or at least as sound as he was as a foal, depending on whether one can accurately call a club footed horse sound, or not?

[Tsavo]

The grazing stance CAUSES the shoulder asymmetry and club foot, how do I know? Because I have seen it happen with 2 foals I have bred (my farrier agrees with me on this too).

What is causing the split stance while grazing if not the shoulder? You are saying they do this before the club foot forms. Why do they adopt it before the club foot starts if there isn't some reason further up the leg?

Pete Ramey is a barefoot expert and he says nerve damage to the shoulder is the most common cause of club foot in his opinion.

Suprascapular Nerve Damage
From my observations in the field, this is the most common.

http://www.hoofrehab.com/ClubFoot.htm

This almost has to be correct because otherwise there is no explanation why they always put one leg forward versus random legs. Also, I am not convinced non-club-footed horses don't have a preferred forward leg.

Also I watched a saddle fitter measure several horses with foam-coated metal form measurement things. Like him I was looking towards the head and standing right behind the horses on a stool. There is no correlation between obvious shoulder asymmetry and club foot. None.

[khall]

Tsavo in the case of foals with acquired club foot it is because they have a short usually higher set neck and long legs like this foal: https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid ... =3&theater

This is my Luso filly shortly after she was born, she was all legs with high set neck from her Lusitano side. She quickly adopted the split legged stance for grazing once she became interested in eating grass. In the research I did after she had to have her check ligament cut, I found it is recommended to turn them out into rolling hills with longer grass so they do not have to adopt such an extreme stance. BTW the Arab I cared for with grade 3 club foot ALWAYS had this extreme split legged stance. So it is the high set neck and long legs of some foals that lead to the adopted grazing stance. My foal was not lame until much later after the club developed to the point requiring surgery. No shoulder injury ever. Neither of my foals had shoulder injury, the WB filly now 9 did have epiphysis that required me to back off on big TO and reduce her dam's grain to slow the filly's growth at the time she wore the cuff/wedge.

https://www.google.com/search?q=picture ... O3jwS19Kcg this is what will lead to an aquired club foot. This extreme stance due to short neck and long legs. I also read research where in the WBs today they are seeing much more of high/low feet issues because of the high set necks and long legs being bred. I know my old line Han have much shorter legs than what is being bred today.

The shoulder asymmetry is present in any horse that has this extreme stance and usually has high/low or club foot. The foot in front will have a shoulder that bulges where the foot behind will have a flatter looking shoulder. From Dr. Ridgeway: http://drkerryridgway.com/2016/07/06/lo ... -syndrome/ he also agrees that hi/low leads to shoulder asymmetry and observes exactly what I have done over the years looking at club feet and hi/low horses.

[kande50]

Tsavo in the case of foals with acquired club foot it is because they have a short usually higher set neck and long legs

And a short head, as some foals can make up for the long legs and short necks with a longer head.

But AFAIK, there was one graduate thesis that came up with this theory and it did not include measurements, or follow up, or confirmation of any kind. There may be more now?

This is my Luso filly shortly after she was born, she was all legs with high set neck from her Lusitano side. She quickly adopted the split legged stance for grazing once she became interested in eating grass. In the research I did after she had to have her check ligament cut, I found it is recommended to turn them out into rolling hills with longer grass so they do not have to adopt such an extreme stance.

I found that I can turn mine out into lush pasture with all kinds of tall grass that would be easy to reach, but Mr. Club still goes into the stance so he can reach the short (tender/higher sugar?) grass. So I soon abandoned the whole idea of turnout when he was still growing, because it was obvious that he was going to be spending a lot of time in the stance if I left him on pasture. He still, at 13, goes into the stance any time he wants to reach the ground. But at this point I feel like I've done what I can, his skeleton is what it is, and his club seems to be grade 1 and stable.

.BTW the Arab I cared for with grade 3 club foot ALWAYS had this extreme split legged stance. So it is the high set neck and long legs of some foals that lead to the adopted grazing stance. My foal was not lame until much later after the club developed to the point requiring surgery. No shoulder injury ever. Neither of my foals had shoulder injury, the WB filly now 9 did have epiphysis that required me to back off on big TO and reduce her dam's grain to slow the filly's growth at the time she wore the cuff/wedge.

I think this is why we still don't know what causes a club to develop, because there may be multiple causes, or hidden causes, or unknowable causes. My horse could have sustained a shoulder injury at birth, or have been more crowded in the uterus than other foals (so curved more), or could have had a shoulder injury that was mild enough so that there were no observable signs? He does fall into the long leg/short head and neck category, but that may just have caused the club to develop more, or faster--or have had no effect? He was never lame and I never saw any marks on him before I noticed the clubby front, so who knows?

This extreme stance due to short neck and long legs. I also read research where in the WBs today they are seeing much more of high/low feet issues because of the high set necks and long legs being bred. I know my old line Han have much shorter legs than what is being bred today.

I think it's common in TB's too, which is possibly because of the same kind of conformation, or maybe just because there are so many of them?

When I bought my WB I didn't even think about looking for something like a club foot, because I was under the mistaken impression that they were genetic, and I figured that all the inspections would have weeded them out of such horses. But now that I've become more tuned into one up/one down and club feet, I see plenty of them in WB's (along with all kinds of other problems that I would never have thought would crop up in horses that had to be inspected before they could be registered).

[kande50]

Worth a read perhaps? http://dressagetoday.com/theory/challen ... orse-27214

[Sue B]

To go back to galopp's last statement about greenies and straightness:

With greenies I find most to be quite equal (if they are methodically started on the ground), it is not until they are ridden some moths that they become crooked. That speaks to the rider's effect (unless thehorse has been injured/etc); and if we can find an opposite handed rider (i.e. left if we are right handed), the horses remain straighter. mho

I have had the privilege of starting both of my horses from scratch (both were only halter broke at time of purchase, 1 was coming 6 the other a long yearling when purchased) and found that, just like my prior mounts, one side is "stiffer" than the other side. In other words one side is less stretchable. Me being a right-handed (mostly) person with scoliosis, one would assume that both would have a tendency to "lean" on the left rein and be hollow to the right. Ummm, that's kinda true for Tio (who is now coming 6 and still green) and completely the opposite for Rudy (who started out completely hollow to the left and "hanging" on the right.) Going further back, Scotty and Lad were also opposites in the beginning but they were both rehabs. In the end, i.e., once trained, my horses mostly go evenly to both reins and when there's an issue it's about whatever hind leg is having an issue THAT day. So, while I agree, riders can contribute to a horse's unvenness, the horse comes to the table with its own preferences as well. carry on.

[Tsavo]

Tsavo in the case of foals with acquired club foot it is because they have a short usually higher set neck and long legs like this foal: https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid ... =3&theater

This is my Luso filly shortly after she was born, she was all legs with high set neck from her Lusitano side. [snip...]

If I understand you, you are saying that the foal is symmetrical. Then the foal, if built as you say above, randomly(?) picks a front foot to advance. Then they stick with that choice rather than randomly advance any foot at any time. Then the shoulder and foot conform to that random choice that is repeated and becomes nonrandom.

I have heard that most club feet are on the right. If that is true then it is very strong evidence against your suggestion that club is caused by a random choice of foot forward while grazing as a foal. And that something (congenital shoulder neuropathy maybe) drives the leg forward in the grazing stance and there is a positive feedback.

I also think foals adopt a split stance all the time and never develop a club. That is very good evidence that stance does not cause club.

[khall]

Tsavo did you read Dr. Ridgeway's laterality in horses?

What I am saying is that the foal is one sided and chooses based on that sidedness (see Ridgeway article) which hoof they keep back, usually the RF. This leads to high or club foot with the foot that is back (RF) while the foot that is forward (LF) heels will crush with severe hi/low. As for Pete Rammey, he is a barefoot trimmer not a vet. Ridgeway studied this issue for many years and came to very similar conclusions that I have after raising as many foals as I have. It takes time for the foot to become clubby. My Luso filly was 4-5 months before it developed and it developed quickly. Her feet (take a look at the photo of her, no club foot there at 2 weeks old) were perfect when she was born, it was as she grew and started grazing more and more that she adopted the extreme one sided grazing stance just like the foal I pictured in my last post, always with the RF back. That is what led to the club foot. You don't have to take my word for it, Dr. Ridgeway feels the same and my long time farrier does too. He was the one who put the glue on cuffs on both my fillies one that corrected the hi/low issue and one had to have check ligament surgery.

Tsavo, how many foals have you raised or been around? I have had foals off and on since '89, only 2 of them ended up with clubby tendencies in the RF. One other had high heels in both fronts and a boxy foot both fronts that happened as she was about 18 months old all of a sudden. None of my foals had the extreme one sided stance except for the 2 that developed clubby hoof. None of my horses adopt or have a side preference at this time and no one have hi/low issues. Now the Arab that I cared for for many years absolutely had a one sided grazing stance along with grade 3 club foot. My TB (interestingly enough grand dam of Luso filly) also had a one sided grazing stance and high RF.

I have read Pete Ramey's claims before and I do not agree with them. I am sure their can be multiple reasons why a club foot will develop in a foal, some are born with them. But I know for my foals and other foals that I dealt with while a vet tech they developed from their grazing stance. If allowed to continue in adulthood the club foot cannot be changed or cured. Only when the foal is young can they successfully adapt and change their stance and change their hoof angles. Club feet in mature horses have to be managed, not cured. Hi/lo in adult horses absolutely means they will have asymmetrical shoulders.

[Tsavo]

Tsavo did you read Dr. Ridgeway's laterality in horses?

What I am saying is that the foal is one sided and chooses based on that sidedness (see Ridgeway article) which hoof they keep back, usually the RF.

Okay you are saying the sidedness is causing the grazing stance which causes the club. That makes more sense.

What causes the sidedness?

[Tsavo]

I read a long while ago that someone claimed Ridgeway uses crystal therapy. I have avoided him since. If you tell me that is incorrect I will read the article.

[khall]

Tsavo umm horses usually have a stiffer side and a "easier" side. See above re gallop etc talking about evenness in rein etc. Much like humans are right or left handed. Makes sense that the horse would put most of their weight on the left shoulder when choosing a grazing stance. Now not all foals will do this and horses who do not have the high neck long legged conformation will not have this issue. My filly does not have a problem now as she has grown and her neck is much longer in proportion to her legs. Plus we are vigilant to not let her break that hoof off. Last year in our drought she started chipping her feet up on the hard ground so we put shoes on her. This is seen in young foals and if not addressed either by body work/trimming or glue ons and sometimes surgery, they will continue with the stance because it is habit. There may be some that grow a long enough neck early enough to stop the process, but that is not what happened with mine. Why I found the recommendation of putting them out in tall grass and hilly pastures.

As for Ridgeway using crystals I have no idea. I never met him, just know he had a great interest (BTW he is dead now) in correct biomechanics of the horse and did several symposiums with both Col Carde and Manola Mendez on movement in the horse. I also know several of his clients, they loved him. The article I sited had no mention of crystals, it was all about high/low and sidedness in the horse.

Ridgeway is not the only vet who has come to this conclusion, just do some research it is out there on grazing stance and club feet. Now there are other reasons that club feet can occur, but usually in aquired club feet in foals it is because of the grazing stance.

[Tsavo]

Tsavo umm horses usually have a stiffer side and a "easier" side. See above re gallop etc talking about evenness in rein etc. Much like humans are right or left handed. Makes sense that the horse would put most of their weight on the left shoulder when choosing a grazing stance. Now not all foals will do this and horses who do not have the high neck long legged conformation will not have this issue. [snip...]

Okay if club is mostly found in foals with the conformation you mention then I think that would be good evidence for your suggestion.

Also if foals that don't develop club rarely graze in a split stance then that would support it also.

Is this the case? Has anyone actually looked at this in a rigorous fashion?

If club is ever traced to a hereditary orthopedic issue then that would blow any behavior argument out of the water. Is it heritable?

[kande50]

Ridgeway is not the only vet who has come to this conclusion, just do some research it is out there on grazing stance and club feet. Now there are other reasons that club feet can occur, but usually in aquired club feet in foals it is because of the grazing stance.

I think my horse may have had other issues that led to the development of his club way before he started grazing, because he was always much more resistant to picking up his right hind than his left hind. That could have been simply a sidedness issue, but he did seem much more resistant to picking up that one hind than any of the other foals I've raised.

Also, the check ligament surgery did not cure his club, and may not have even improved it, because for all I know it might have never progressed beyond what it was when he had the surgery. He still has a smaller, narrower, more upright right front than left front, he's still crooked, and he still grazes in the stance.

It's also possible that the surgery worked the way it was claimed to work and halted and improved the club considerably, and if I hadn't had it done he'd be even more one sided than he is and the hoof would be much more clubby than it is. There's just no way to know what would have happened if things had been done differently, so the only reliable way to study something like this would be to look at large groups of similar horses with clubs, treat some and not others, and try to see whether there's any correlation between treatment and outcome.

I think the tendency to develop a club can be hereditary, and may be linked to an upright hoof angle, because some mares and stallions produce way more club footed foals than others.

[khall]

Tsavo, yes club feet can be inheritable or congenital. Those foals are born with a club foot they do not develop them as they grow. That is when oxtetracycline is used to relax the tendons and absolve the retraction. I handled a stallion at a vet clinic who would throw foals with a club foot and we had to use this when the foal is first born, usually for several days in a row. This is also found in quite a few Arabian lines (the Arab I had here had actually been a stallion and had a few foals) but they hit the ground with the issue, not several months out develop it. Both of my foals were born totally normal with good conformation in the front hooves. No clubbiness whatsoever. They developed it, hence it is acquired club foot, as they grew and developed the grazing stance. It is their conformation of high set neck and long legs that led to the grazing stance and the acquired club foot.

Kande, when did Sting have his surgery? If it was done after he was a year old, it is much less likely to have as good of an out come than if done earlier.

Here is one study on WBs and club foot development.
https://barefoothoofcare.wordpress.com/ ... formation/

[kande50]

Kande, when did Sting have his surgery? If it was done after he was a year old, it is much less likely to have as good of an out come than if done earlier.

I'm pretty sure it was at 11 months, and at the time the vet didn't grade it, but I would say it was a 2. There was no deformation of his hoof wall at the toe (no ski jump or anything like that), but the bottom of P2 was bulging out just above his coronary band, and we could see on rads that he was starting to develop the bulge in the distal face of P3 and a ski tip on the front edge.

Some might say that his club was cured because it can be trimmed to look the same as the down hoof when viewed from the top, but as soon as you turn it over it's obvious that the club is still narrower, cuppier, less toe, and the heels want to be higher than the widest part of the frog.

Here is one study on WBs and club foot development.
https://barefoothoofcare.wordpress.com/ ... formation/[/quote]

Thanks! I think that's the one and only study of that kind, and was done quite a while ago and I don't think anyone's followed up on it since?

[Tsavo]

Both of my foals were born totally normal with good conformation in the front hooves. No clubbiness whatsoever. They developed it, hence it is acquired club foot, as they grew and developed the grazing stance.

You cannot conclude that just because a condition is not present at birth that it is acquired. Idiopathic scoliosis in humans is genetic yet usually doesn't present until the adolescent growth spurt. These children often have a characteristic body habitus. It could be the same with horses in that the genetics of that conformation includes clubfoot.

At this point I think it is too hard to sort out unless large numbers of foals with and without that conformation were followed for incidence of clubfoot.

[khall]

Tsavo it is not just my conclusion, if you read the articles I sited. There is more information out there if you look, I am just not inclined to go further at this time since you are so skeptical. No skin off my nose, I would just ask you to a) take a look at any horse with high/low or club foot issue and see what their grazing stance is b) think of the forces that repetitive motion (or standing) puts on the muscular skeletal system of the horse c) take a look at the shoulders of these horses and see how this stance affects them

kande I get where you are coming from as far as hoof shape being different. Both of mine are too, with the boxier hoof on the side that would have been the club foot. Thankfully though mine 2 do not practice the one sided grazing stance anymore so those forces have been negated with the glue on shoe and with the surgery.

[Chisamba]

if club foot is related to grazing stance shouldn't every horse that exists have one? they all graze.

I read your post, it was a blog about a study, the study was not actually quoted, the actual results were not described and the long term information was not given.as such i found it inconclusive. also correlation does not equal causation. It would be fairly easy to consider that a horse that has a genetic discomfort in its feet might develop a particular grazing stance because of that, not that the grazing stance would cause it.

its like diet soda studies that show a high percentage of people who drink diet soda are obese, therefore diet soda causes obesity. not, not actually, people who are obese choose to drink diet soda to try and avoid further weight gain, correlation is not causation.

a study showed that 80 percent of warmblood foals on one farm had broken coffin bones. http://www.thehorse.com/articles/25047/ ... lood-foals
so without seeing the study and xraying the hooves how do you know the cause of the club foot and grazing stance was not due to early coffin bone breaks?

I do not know what causes club feet, i have seen it in a few horses that I have had in training, if not actual club feet, at least high low heels. more regular than usual trimming and training helped them maintain even stride and soundness, so i would not automatically write off a horse for dressage because of high low heels.

in theory, if club feet is caused by grazing stance you could cure it by hobbling, or dry lot feeding and putting all the hay in higher hay racks.

I am, as always, interested in all theories, but give more impact to studies with real science and that stand up to analysis