The "falling down" neck / neck like a waterfall

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piedmontfields
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The "falling down" neck / neck like a waterfall

Postby piedmontfields » Sat Jul 22, 2017 9:09 pm

A topic for reflection: Does the phrase "falling down neck" or "neck like a waterfall" resonate with you and your training?

I learned this indirectly from a few trainers, but would source it to deKunffy and his students. When I pay attention to the quality of waterfall neck consistently, I like the results. Emi is much looser and her topline is much "fluffier." She even feels taller. I'll add that this is very quiet attention--not a fiddling attention, but more of an assessment: Did I lose waterfall neck? If so, address.

Lately I've been finding that if make sure my attention is in place from the beginning of my ride (as opposed to when I start "work"), I have much better success.

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Re: The "falling down" neck / neck like a waterfall

Postby Tsavo » Sat Jul 22, 2017 10:12 pm

How do you address it?

I think it is just another way to say if the back is up or dropped until the horse is strong enough to keep the back/withers and the neck up. I think it can be misunderstood and people might be throwing the horse on the forehand.

Or it could be another way to say the horse is leg to hand to establish the contact and then you can take the neck anywhere... down, side, (not too far) up. Then you add getting the horse inside to outside.

Attention/focus is very hard, as hard as the physical aspect of riding in my opinion. My horse "magically" becomes more consistent in the contact and in everything when I am more consistent. LOL. Horse are so tractable. They just want to know what you want.

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Re: The "falling down" neck / neck like a waterfall

Postby piedmontfields » Sat Jul 22, 2017 10:53 pm

Tsavo, I think I agree in that the neck is symptom but not cause. However, it is an expressive symptom! (so it can break through our awareness and remind us--huh, attend to that which produces a not nice waterfall neck).

I absolutely agree with your comment on the magic of human consistency :-D I am so grateful for the kind patience and willingness of horses!

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Re: The "falling down" neck / neck like a waterfall

Postby Ryeissa » Sun Jul 23, 2017 1:56 am

absolutely, I Have a distinct feeling in the hand and motion when the neck is "falling over the withers".

I think horses can absolutely get stuck in the neck, and it's not always/only a symptom of the back/hips. I massage horses professionally and many many are locked near c5/point of shoulder and massage/chiro really helps, for starters.

Anyways, yes, I also like the phrase "telescoping neck"- all of these images I am able to use to understand a dynamic PUSHING force over the withers. The next step is to stop the front feet from going too quick and keep the lift in the horses' sternum. Too much flow over the top with out balancing this creates a rushing horse, on the forehand.

My horse is particulatly prone to jamming up, quickly, with disasterous results. More than any horse I have ever ridden so that might play into this for me.

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Re: The "falling down" neck / neck like a waterfall

Postby StraightForward » Sun Jul 23, 2017 2:19 pm

Maybe because of my western pleasure past, the "falling down neck" phrase did not sound positive for dressage to me when I first read this. I'm not sure about neck like a waterfall either. Sally Swift has an image in Centered Riding where the rider's hands are hoses with water gushing out of the front - if I think of the horse's neck like that, more arcing up and out before falling, it does resonate for me. It seems the hose could be pointed to different directions, but the water will always fall towards the ground, and you always want a graceful arc.
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Re: The "falling down" neck / neck like a waterfall

Postby musical comedy » Sun Jul 23, 2017 3:39 pm

All these years riding and reading, I've never heard that term. :oops:
So, I googled it and found lots. Here are a couple links. Sounds like it originated from Conrad S.

https://www.usdf.org/EduDocs/Training/C ... 09_jul.pdf

http://www.ridingmagazine.com/index.php ... y-clayton-

I don't like the term nor do I like the waterfall one. It is basically a horse dropping this neck after the withers are raised. Another trainer (name escapes me) says a horse's neck should look like he's drinking out of a fountain. But come on, we all know what a nice neck should look like.

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Re: The "falling down" neck / neck like a waterfall

Postby piedmontfields » Sun Jul 23, 2017 6:02 pm

StraightForward wrote:Maybe because of my western pleasure past, the "falling down neck" phrase did not sound positive for dressage to me when I first read this. I'm not sure about neck like a waterfall either. .. It seems the hose could be pointed to different directions, but the water will always fall towards the ground, and you always want a graceful arc.


Maybe because I live in a land of many waterfalls, I do not think of the water as going straight down but actually arcing out gracefully (that is what happens, due to the force of the river). I do agree that it is a funny term, though (and has nothing to do with a neck/crest that is fallen).

MC, while we might share common ideals of an "ideal neck", there is also the reality of given individuals. My mare has quite a short neck (not ideal), so any further shortening by my poor training/riding = a very obvious tragically short neck. I do think some horses can present with a good neck even when not fully arcing, just because of their conformation.

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Re: The "falling down" neck / neck like a waterfall

Postby musical comedy » Sun Jul 23, 2017 8:23 pm

piedmontfields wrote:MC, while we might share common ideals of an "ideal neck", there is also the reality of given individuals. My mare has quite a short neck (not ideal), so any further shortening by my poor training/riding = a very obvious tragically short neck. I do think some horses can present with a good neck even when not fully arcing, just because of their conformation.
Of course. My point is that I don't think the term falling down neck or waterfall is helpful to many people trying to figure out the way to get the neck as nice as it can be.

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Re: The "falling down" neck / neck like a waterfall

Postby Chisamba » Sun Jul 23, 2017 11:23 pm

I read it, disliked the imagery, did not Google, and will find a thought or term that resonates with me of the idea of balance and carriage better than one of water forcefully crashing down into a casm.

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Re: The "falling down" neck / neck like a waterfall

Postby Dresseur » Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:11 am

To me, it brings to mind a downhill balance, where all of the energy is escaping out front. In my mind, the reference of a chandelier hanging off the poll (DeKunffy said that, I believe) at least brings to mind softness and mobility.

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Re: The "falling down" neck / neck like a waterfall

Postby Tsavo » Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:16 am

I think the phrase is like draw reins... the people who already know how to lengthen the neck and raise the withers without throwing the horse on the forehand don't need the phrase. And people who don't know how to do those things probably shouldn't be keying into the phase because it is fraught with danger of lowering the withers with the neck.

I will say that if the phrase gets people to do whatever to get the horse to use the top of the neck, take out the underneck, and not throw the contact away, it is useful. I am just not sure that the phrase will work that way with enough people.

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Re: The "falling down" neck / neck like a waterfall

Postby piedmontfields » Mon Jul 24, 2017 1:09 pm

Tsavo wrote:I will say that if the phrase gets people to do whatever to get the horse to use the top of the neck, take out the underneck, and not throw the contact away, it is useful. I am just not sure that the phrase will work that way with enough people.


Fair enough! I appreciated hearing people's reactions. I think it was taught to me in a way that got the point across (your 1st sentence above--it's a reminder to me to make sure the neck is being used correctly) but I've never been able to use that phrase talking to other people and succeeded in having it make sense :lol:

I was thinking about this topic because there some people attached to using draw reins at my newish barn for "carriage." Ugh. (I am not opposed to draw reins for very basic safety/introduction of an idea of where one could carry the head for a challenging horse--but I can't imagine using them for more than a week or two). It's clear to me that they are teaching/doing all of the bad associations that many of you had with this phrase: tumbling over the poll, escaping out the hinds, etc.

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Re: The "falling down" neck / neck like a waterfall

Postby Chisamba » Mon Jul 24, 2017 1:48 pm

I suppose it might have to do with the kind of waterfall one is used to. Sitting in the devils pool and watching the water flow down the Victoria falls is awe inspiring, but all the power really is down. for me, body surfing on the crest of a wave is really helpful, because if you push too forward, on fall into the white water and are pulled under, if you sit too far back, the wave flows off leaving you behind, but if you stay in perfect balance, you are swept along with brilliant energy for as long as the wave has formation. However i think i will agree with what Tsavo said. if the imagery works for you, and helps you find the right feeling, then that is really a positive.

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Re: The "falling down" neck / neck like a waterfall

Postby Ryeissa » Mon Jul 24, 2017 2:34 pm

For me, a waterfall is an active thing, flowing energy-- the opposite of this is when the horse "stops at the wither" and the horse is in two halves. As I said above, the rider needs to keep sternum lifted. I think the tendancy to rush the horse and drop on the forehand always exsists, no image will perfectly capture the essence of all this "ying and yang"- give but don't over-give, contain but don't restrain the energy.

I picture it and feel it over the withers, so I had no issues with this being negitive. It's OVER the withers, which is a very plesant feeling in the hand, and I can tell immediately when it stops.

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Re: The "falling down" neck / neck like a waterfall

Postby Bats79 » Tue Jul 25, 2017 1:29 am

Don't like the description at all. For me that says that all the energy is going down the neck to the ground.

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Re: The "falling down" neck / neck like a waterfall

Postby Anne » Tue Jul 25, 2017 5:09 am

Agree with you Bats79 - not a description or image I like (and had never heard it before). 'Falling down' to me implies loss of control (who ever *wants* to fall down?), and a waterfall is similarly negative - the water crashes into the ground with considerable force, not what I want the front of the horse doing... Also agree with Tsavo and Chisamba, if it is an image that works for you, it is all good!

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Re: The "falling down" neck / neck like a waterfall

Postby MaryC » Wed Aug 02, 2017 5:06 pm

Tsavo wrote:get the horse to use the top of the neck, take out the underneck, and not throw the contact away.


This. My trainer uses "falling down neck" often, and it works for us. My girl loves to brace against the bit in upward transitions, and if I think about "falling down neck" I can keep the softness. It's not hanging or on the forehand, the goal is to have suppleness.

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Re: The "falling down" neck / neck like a waterfall

Postby DJR » Wed Aug 02, 2017 6:06 pm

MaryC wrote:
Tsavo wrote:get the horse to use the top of the neck, take out the underneck, and not throw the contact away.


This. My trainer uses "falling down neck" often, and it works for us. My girl loves to brace against the bit in upward transitions, and if I think about "falling down neck" I can keep the softness. It's not hanging or on the forehand, the goal is to have suppleness.


Ditto this. And, for some breeds like my up-necked Friesian/Perch, it's a helpful analogy to encourage "forward out to the bit" with energy flowing up through the withers rather than the energy dammed up like the Houston dam when he evades through the base of his neck and through his back.

I don't think of the analogy as though water were crashing into a chasm. Rather, I think of it as harnessing the energy and the out/forward neck like is seen at the base of a waterfall.

Anyway, it helps in my case.
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Re: The "falling down" neck / neck like a waterfall

Postby Ryeissa » Wed Aug 02, 2017 7:39 pm

Agree! Its a way to keep active energy, no block at the wither

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Re: The "falling down" neck / neck like a waterfall

Postby orono » Wed Aug 02, 2017 8:44 pm

I've heard it a few times, but clinicians who's first language was not english. I think it's a way of describing something that doesn't have an exact translation.


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