Episode 3 in which my horse tries reining

[Tsavo]

This is pretty good...

Today I call him and instead of walk or trot or canter to me, he spins like a reiner and then gallops towards me. He doesn't get more than 3-4 strides before he pulls up to trot and is limping like a mofo. He comes down to walk and is still limping. This is the exact limp he did in the arena when I was running next to him only this time I don't panic. LOL

I groom him, treat him, and hang with him for a while. Then on my way out I am at the other end of the pasture and I call him. The limp at trot is still there though very slight and he is sound at walk.

I guess if he is going to come sound within a few minutes I am not going to restrict his movement. This crap never happened with shoes.

He has been known to gallop towards me if I have been out of town and hadn't seen him in a while. But in this case, I saw him yesterday. I am thinking he liked the mouthwash splash. I have no other explanation. And there was no bugs around him that I saw so he was still minty fresh!

[Tsavo]

Yesterday was pretty bad. He was walking like the shoes were just pulled. He lost all the progress he made.

This makes no sense unless he is still hurting from the irrational exuberance yesterday.

[Sue B]

Sheesh, I wonder if he pulled a muscle when he spun or something.

[Tsavo]

Sheesh, I wonder if he pulled a muscle when he spun or something.

I think you might be correct. He is moving like he is footsore but that makes absolutely no sense. He has made great progress on that score since pulling the fronts a month ago.

It has to be something besides foot because he is doing it on grass and in the ring when he was pretty close to normal stride length on grass and 90% in the arena. I am betting it is the ringbone which is bilateral. He is moving very short on both fronts.

I contacted my farrier about immediately putting him in those soft plastic shoes. My boy has suffered enough. On the last trim my farrier said there was progress but he still has a little more heel to grow before he can go back into shoes. No more suffering for my boy. If I have to retire my horse over making him comfortable I will. My eyes have been opened on this transitioning issue.

[Abby Kogler]

There are things you can do to keep him comfortable until his heel corrects itself. There is NO EVIDENCE that being barefoot is the problem.

Magic Cushion is a very comforting product if indeed it is hoof soreness or irritated ringbone.

Adequan.

Surpass, if your vet says its ok to use with Equioxx.

Sore No More on neck and shoulder pastern or ankle.

Body work.

Standing wraps.

Ice.

[musical comedy]

What don't you get the joint blocked to see if it is ringbone? If it is, why don't you inject the joint with steroids?

[Tsavo]

What don't you get the joint blocked to see if it is ringbone? If it is, why don't you inject the joint with steroids?

Hey that is a great suggestion! I will ask my vet. The only potential issue is that it is asymptomatic in shoes. I think that means it isn't near enough to the joint such that when the foot is supported there is nothing to address in the joint, no? It would be a needless risk. I am not having him injected if shoes solves the issue which it certainly appears it will given it is likely ringbone causing the pain.

[orono]

I would probably put the shoes back on and see how he does, this doesn't sound like fun for either of you.

[Tsavo]

I would probably put the shoes back on and see how he does, this doesn't sound like fun for either of you.

Exactly so.

I am counting the hours. I am coming around to feeling like it isn't right or fair. I have growing guilt. I am not sure how much longer I can hold out. He doesn't know why he is hurting. He obviously doesn't know not to do reining/galloping lol.

It is my fondest hope that if we use the softest of those blue pegasos shoes that he will continue to grow his heel out. I have a growing fear that if I press ahead with barefoot much more there will be serious ramifications to his health and soundness.

My farrier trimmed him on 28 Sept and said "he needs a little more growth before we shoe him again". His heel really has improved in only a month so he is trying! Such a good boy. I hope the end is in sight.

[Tsavo]

What don't you get the joint blocked to see if it is ringbone? If it is, why don't you inject the joint with steroids?

Apparently, injections don't work as well in older horses plus they only last a few months at best even if they do work.

This is only one article but the n is pretty decent for a horse study.

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1 ... 12383/full

Article
Intra-articular treatment with triamcinolone compared with triamcinolone with hyaluronate: A randomised open-label multicentre clinical trial in 80 lame horses
Authors
J. C. de Grauw,
M. C. Visser-Meijer,
F. Lashley,
P. Meeus,
P. R. van Weeren
First published: 2 February 2015Full publication history
DOI: 10.1111/evj.12383 View/save citation
Cited by (CrossRef): 4 articles Check for updates Citation tools
Article has an altmetric score of 10
Funding Information
Summary

Reasons for performing study

Intra-articular (IA) injection of corticosteroids with or without hyaluronate (HA) has been used for decades in equine practice for treatment of noninfectious synovitis and osteoarthritis. However, to date, no large-scale randomised equine field trials have been reported that address the supposed superior clinical efficacy of the combination of corticosteroid + HA compared with IA injection of corticosteroid alone.
Objectives

To compare the clinical efficacy of IA triamcinolone acetonide (TA, 12 mg) compared with IA TA (12 mg) + high molecular weight HA (20 mg) in horses with clinical joint disease.
Study design

Prospective, randomised, parallel, open label, multicentre clinical trial.
Methods

Eighty client-owned horses from 13 clinics were included. Lameness and effusion scores were assessed at baseline and 3 weeks after IA treatment. A standardised telephone questionnaire was completed between the owner and consulting veterinarian at 3 months. The primary outcome parameter was clinical success rate, defined as ≥2 grades lameness reduction (on a 0–5 scale) at 3 weeks. Chi-square statistics and binary logistic regression were used to analyse data on an intention-to-treat basis for the 3 week outcome.
Results

The success rate of IA TA 3 weeks after treatment was 87.8%, while that of TA+HA was 64.1% (P = 0.01). Age >13 years was associated with a reduced success rate for the combination treatment (P = 0.004) at 3 weeks. At 3 months, half the horses in each group had returned to their previous level of performance.
Conclusions

The combination of TA with HA was associated with a lower short-term clinical success rate and a similar medium-term outcome compared with IA TA, with only half of the horses performing at their previous level of exercise after 3 months regardless of treatment group allocation.

[Chisamba]

I have not done the research myself but my vet says that most horses do not respond well to joint injections for ringbone, according to both his practical experience and the research he has done. ( in agreement with Tsavo)

[Tsavo]

I have not done the research myself but my vet says that most horses do not respond well to joint injections for ringbone, according to both his practical experience and the research he has done. ( in agreement with Tsavo)

Yep.

That's the impression I am getting from seeing a 25 yo horse in my barn getting injections for ringbone. He has low ringbone.

Maybe most ringbone is not near enough to the joint? I only got a quick look at the most recent rads and my vet has to send me them but it didn't look like it was in the joint. That said, I am pretty sure I don't know how to read radiographs other than measuring the PA. I can do that in my sleep LOL.

[Flight]

I'd just go back to shoes when he's ready for them.
My horses are barefoot but the big horse has had shoes on twice now when he needed them. I think you've got to do whatever makes them most comfortable?

[Tsavo]

I'd just go back to shoes when he's ready for them.
My horses are barefoot but the big horse has had shoes on twice now when he needed them. I think you've got to do whatever makes them most comfortable?

Yes I agree. The all-barefoot all-the-time crowd has been dope slapped enough at this point. I think most people are on board with shoe them if they need shoes and not if they don't. My horse is between 16.2 and 16.3 HH , weighs around 1,360 pounds, and has galloping albeit asymptomatic (when in shoes) ringbone based on serial rads. He has good quality hoof but has damage to all feet from years of working a club foot. He needs support.

I will say again, my horse has NEVER done this theatrical level limping when he had shoes like he is routinely doing now barefoot. He is doing it on soft grass where his stride length was pretty normal after a month so this has exactly zero to do with his feet at this point.

I don't want to restrict his movement because it only lasts few minutes but I don't know that these episodes are not doing crazy damage. Maybe they are. Who the hell knows.

[khall]

You can have non articular ringbone and articular ringbone with high ringbone. Low ringbone is always articular and the most difficult to manage.

Shoeing is a must when there is articular ringbone if you want to horse to be useable. You need to stabilize the foot and allow the horse to move over that foot with ease. Some farriers use half round shoes to help with this.

I have dealt with both high non articular ringbone and low ringbone. My older mare Gallie (22) has had non articular ringbone for years with little to no issues. Foot balance is key to prevent any further damage done and progression of the ringbone. Especially when you have any angular limb issues.

My mare Anna that I lost last October had low ringbone in one foot. We were very careful with her shoeing to keep her hooves in as good of shape as we could. She wore a frog support pad and either magic cushion or dental impression material underneath to promote foot growth and help prevent a negative palmer angle. Tsavo this is how I would shoe your horse to stabilize his hooves and to promote heel growth. That or a heart bar shoe. My farrier will cut the heel back until he gets straight horn tubules and then will shoe with one of these to get the horse to grow heel. I've seen this help a dead lame mare with negative palmer angle on both front feet. She went sound in about 3-4 months. She has to continue to wear a heart bar only on her low foot now. She is a big mare, a TB/Perch cross.

For articular high ringbone fusion can be done when pain is not able to be controlled.

[Tsavo]

khall thanks you SO MUCH for this information. So very helpful to me.

You can have non articular ringbone and articular ringbone with high ringbone. Low ringbone is always articular and the most difficult to manage.

Shoeing is a must when there is articular ringbone if you want to horse to be useable. You need to stabilize the foot and allow the horse to move over that foot with ease. Some farriers use half round shoes to help with this.

Yes this is what I am gleaning from reading. My vet wants him in a full rocker shoe. My horse has been in these before and loved them but other horses my farrier had in them were losing their quarters so we took my horse out before that might have happened. I am now thinking that his ringbone might not be so advanced if we kept him in them (and if he kept his quarters). Hindsight...

I have dealt with both high non articular ringbone and low ringbone. My older mare Gallie (22) has had non articular ringbone for years with little to no issues. Foot balance is key to prevent any further damage done and progression of the ringbone. Especially when you have any angular limb issues.

I think this is what I am dealing with also and why the ringbone has been non-symptomatic in shoes. This recent slight lameness is somewhere in the foot and nowhere near the ringbone based on the blocking.

My mare Anna that I lost last October had low ringbone in one foot. We were very careful with her shoeing to keep her hooves in as good of shape as we could. She wore a frog support pad and either magic cushion or dental impression material underneath to promote foot growth and help prevent a negative palmer angle. Tsavo this is how I would shoe your horse to stabilize his hooves and to promote heel growth. That or a heart bar shoe. My farrier will cut the heel back until he gets straight horn tubules and then will shoe with one of these to get the horse to grow heel. I've seen this help a dead lame mare with negative palmer angle on both front feet. She went sound in about 3-4 months. She has to continue to wear a heart bar only on her low foot now. She is a big mare, a TB/Perch cross.

For articular high ringbone fusion can be done when pain is not able to be controlled.

I will keep that in mind going forward.

My horse has about a +6 on the RF and about a 0 or +1 on the LF. As soon as I get the rads I will measure them but that is my guess looking at them on the screen. I am hoping once the heel regrows that we can get another degree on the LF.

Thanks again for sharing your experience with me. I appreciate it.

[demi]

You can have non articular ringbone and articular ringbone with high ringbone. Low ringbone is always articular and the most difficult to manage.

Shoeing is a must when there is articular ringbone if you want to horse to be useable. You need to stabilize the foot and allow the horse to move over that foot with ease. Some farriers use half round shoes to help with this.

I have dealt with both high non articular ringbone and low ringbone. My older mare Gallie (22) has had non articular ringbone for years with little to no issues. Foot balance is key to prevent any further damage done and progression of the ringbone. Especially when you have any angular limb issues.

My mare Anna that I lost last October had low ringbone in one foot. We were very careful with her shoeing to keep her hooves in as good of shape as we could. She wore a frog support pad and either magic cushion or dental impression material underneath to promote foot growth and help prevent a negative palmer angle. Tsavo this is how I would shoe your horse to stabilize his hooves and to promote heel growth. That or a heart bar shoe. My farrier will cut the heel back until he gets straight horn tubules and then will shoe with one of these to get the horse to grow heel. I've seen this help a dead lame mare with negative palmer angle on both front feet. She went sound in about 3-4 months. She has to continue to wear a heart bar only on her low foot now. She is a big mare, a TB/Perch cross.

For articular high ringbone fusion can be done when pain is not able to be controlled.

Just another experience here, not ringbone but about half rounds. After all the initial treatments, we tried my Arabian gelding (around 22 yrs old at the time) in half rounds for founder. He was horrified! He couldn't find his balance and even though we left them on for a full cycle he never got used to them. We then tried slightly rocking the toe and he didn't like that much better. He ended up best with wide web shoes. And, fwiw, I keep a horse barefoot unless they need shoes for special reasons, and I've had a few that needed shoes for their lifetime.

[kande50]

I would probably put the shoes back on and see how he does, this doesn't sound like fun for either of you.

Exactly so.

I am counting the hours. I am coming around to feeling like it isn't right or fair. I have growing guilt. I am not sure how much longer I can hold out. He doesn't know why he is hurting. He obviously doesn't know not to do reining/galloping lol.

He's obviously not hurting enough to restrict his willingness to move, which tells me that he just needs more time to develop a stronger hoof. A horse with a hoof abscess is an example of a horse who is in serious pain; a horse who is willing to spin around and gallop down the field isn't.

The shoeing is likely connected to his current problems, so why would you even consider putting him back into shoes until his problems are healed?

The entire back of the hoof (digital cushion, frog, sole, walls) need to develop and strengthen before he has much chance of becoming sound again, so why would you want to duplicate the very same issue that caused his hoof to become so weak in the first place?

I did it with the mare I had back in the 70's, 80's and 90's. Had her in shoes all the time, then got into wedges, full pads, glue ons, durasole, thrushX, and on and on and on trying to keep her ever weakening hooves strong enough to hold shoes. Finally, when she was in her mid to late 20's, she started developing hoof abscesses so I pulled her shoes. It took about 2 years before she developed a good enough hoof so that she was sound on most surfaces, and if she hadn't been retired by then I probably could have started riding her again.

For most horses, the longer they're in shoes the weaker the hoof becomes, and then it takes a lot longer for them to build all that lost hoof density back up again.

[Tsavo]

I see you are in the Hiltrud Strasser school of let them suffer for long periods of time. I am not.

[orono]

I've had soft soled horses tough it out for a few cycles when transitioning. That isn't what's happening here, he isn't just 'ouchy when walking across some gravel' etc.

[Tsavo]

I've had soft soled horses tough it out for a few cycles when transitioning. That isn't what's happening here, he isn't just 'ouchy when walking across some gravel' etc.

Thank you. I can't get this across to some folks. It is like a different worldview or something, I don't know.

[Dresseur]

^ Yes, this. I have let hooves grow out over the winter, and I try to keep barefoot as long as I can, and ideally in my world, horses could be kept barefoot. However, when the hoof is inflamed - and that's what's happening anytime there is ouchiness - the longer you allow that hoof to be inflamed, the greater your risk of laminitis and worse, getting into situations where there is coffin bone rotation. I know specifically of a horse that had shoes pulled. The xrays were good before hand - the owner got it into her head that because the horse was sore without shoes, that the shoes had to be pulled and the horse needed to toughen up. The horse was uncomfortable for 2 years and then started to get worse. New rads were pulled and there was evidence of rotation due to the inflammation over the years. Now the horse will NEVER be sound shoes or no shoes. You do what makes the horse comfortable.

[Tsavo]

^ Yes, this. I have let hooves grow out over the winter, and I try to keep barefoot as long as I can, and ideally in my world, horses could be kept barefoot. However, when the hoof is inflamed - and that's what's happening anytime there is ouchiness - the longer you allow that hoof to be inflamed, the greater your risk of laminitis and worse, getting into situations where there is coffin bone rotation. I know specifically of a horse that had shoes pulled. The xrays were good before hand - the owner got it into her head that because the horse was sore without shoes, that the shoes had to be pulled and the horse needed to toughen up. The horse was uncomfortable for 2 years and then started to get worse. New rads were pulled and there was evidence of rotation due to the inflammation over the years. Now the horse will NEVER be sound shoes or no shoes. You do what makes the horse comfortable.

Thank you.

Horses have relatively short lives. We owe them as much comfort as possible.

[angela9823]

I think most people are on board with shoe them if they need shoes and not if they don't. My horse is between 16.2 and 16.3 HH , weighs around 1,360 pounds, and has galloping albeit asymptomatic (when in shoes) ringbone based on serial rads. He has good quality hoof but has damage to all feet from years of working a club foot. He needs support.

Definition of "asymptomatic" is showing no signs of of disease or disorder. You used this terminology to describe a horse who you have identified as needing more heel (whatever that means) in several of your posts. You said you pulled the shoes to grow more heel. If your shoe provides support, why could the horse not grow heel in them?

I think this is what I am dealing with also and why the ringbone has been non-symptomatic in shoes. This recent slight lameness is somewhere in the foot and nowhere near the ringbone based on the blocking.

I don't understand this. You mentioned on several of your posts that you believe the issue to be that the hoof is now not getting the support it needs and it could be aggravating the ringbone and the shoe would help in that case? If it is coming from "somewhere in the hoof" and "nowhere near the ringbone" why do you think this has anything to do with ringbone and not about the horse possibly having thrush or imbalance from trying to grow heel etc?

I've asked before, why are you trying to grow heel? How are you accomplishing that? In my experience (have been trimming a ringbone horse since 2001), trying to grow heel on a horse doesn't work unless you are talking about growing depth to the overall heel. Those feet always underrun if you are just trying to accomplish getting heel wall growth. What have you done different to the club foot to support this? This is of course assuming the hoof you want to grow heel on is NOT the club hoof. Why did you pull the shoes in the first place if your horse was going sound? What made you think he needed heel on the hoof if he was sound?

[Tsavo]

I think most people are on board with shoe them if they need shoes and not if they don't. My horse is between 16.2 and 16.3 HH , weighs around 1,360 pounds, and has galloping albeit asymptomatic (when in shoes) ringbone based on serial rads. He has good quality hoof but has damage to all feet from years of working a club foot. He needs support.

Definition of "asymptomatic" is showing no signs of of disease or disorder. You used this terminology to describe a horse who you have identified as needing more heel (whatever that means) in several of your posts. You said you pulled the shoes to grow more heel. If your shoe provides support, why could the horse not grow heel in them?

The RINGBONE was asymptomatic in shoes. I am sorry if that wasn't clear until this point.

The heel was fine for almost 13 years in shoes. It went south starting this spring/summer I think in response to pulling the hind shoes. That is the only correlate. The foot blocked out and he was sound but he was still in shoes at that point. Without shoes he is clearly intermittently crippled. This has nothing to do with the feet.

I think this is what I am dealing with also and why the ringbone has been non-symptomatic in shoes. This recent slight lameness is somewhere in the foot and nowhere near the ringbone based on the blocking.

I don't understand this. You mentioned on several of your posts that you believe the issue to be that the hoof is now not getting the support it needs and it could be aggravating the ringbone and the shoe would help in that case? If it is coming from "somewhere in the hoof" and "nowhere near the ringbone" why do you think this has anything to do with ringbone and not about the horse possibly having thrush or imbalance from trying to grow heel etc?

There are two separate issues here. A lameness in the foot somewhere that resolved a week after pulling the shoe and then the crippling lameness not associated with the feet associated with pulling the shoes. Two separate issues with separate timelines and separate indicia.

I've asked before, why are you trying to grow heel? How are you accomplishing that? In my experience (have been trimming a ringbone horse since 2001), trying to grow heel on a horse doesn't work unless you are talking about growing depth to the overall heel. Those feet always underrun if you are just trying to accomplish getting heel wall growth. What have you done different to the club foot to support this? This is of course assuming the hoof you want to grow heel on is NOT the club hoof. Why did you pull the shoes in the first place if your horse was going sound? What made you think he needed heel on the hoof if he was sound?

Let me try a timeline as a last ditch effort:
1. Last week in August he develops a slight lameness on the LF ONLY when it is on the outside of a circle. He is sound left and straight.
2. The end of August the vet comes, confirms my observation about the lameness, blocks the LF, the horse comes sound, suggests pulling the shoes for one cycle to grow the heel if that is the reason for the lameness. I can believe it might be as it started getting underrun this year a few months after we pulled the hinds last winter.
3. I have worked him in the arena and we was sound in both directions for a few weeks.
4. Then he had a sudden lameness while trotting left (note this is not the original problematic direction nor the original presentation because it is a separate issue).
5. Then last weekend he develops the SAME giant gimp after spinning and galloping towards me. Limping at walk also. After a few minutes he is sound at walk and almost sound at trot. Had I waited a few more minutes he probably would have been sound at trot like in the arena earlier when he gimped like that.
6. The next day I couldn't check if he was sound because he was walking like we had just pulled the shoes. Just prior to that his stride length was normal on grass and almost normal in the arena.

The vet wants him in full rockers after the heel grows out for a reason.

[khall]

Tsavo what does radiographs show ringbone wise? High, low, non articular high?

[Tsavo]

Tsavo what does radiographs show ringbone wise? High, low, non articular high?

It is high and doesn't appear to my eye it is articular but I would have to ask the vet. The fact that it was asymptomatic in shoes suggests it is probably non articular, yes?

[kande50]

I see you are in the Hiltrud Strasser school of let them suffer for long periods of time. I am not.

If you were worried about suffering then why did you put a club footed horse in shoes and then work him so hard? All you had to do was read up on the risks, and what happens to club footed horses when they're worked hard (they stay sound for a number of years and then the heel on the down hoof goes and then the club is next).

Shoes, IMO, just speed up the damage because of the peripheral loading, although in your horse's case I think I remember that there was sole or frog support, which likely helped slow it down. Wedging the hinds up to match each other was, IMO, questionable too, although the real problem (also IMO, because who can know) is the amount and kind of work.

So now, after the damage is already done you're going to worry about whether to keep the band aids on or off?

[Tsavo]

If you were worried about suffering then why did you put a club footed horse in shoes and then work him so hard? All you had to do was read up on the risks, and what happens to club footed horses when they're worked hard (they stay sound for a number of years and then the heel on the down hoof goes and then the club is next).

1. show me that reading up you did
2. define "hard"

[Abby Kogler]

Let me try a timeline as a last ditch effort:
1. Last week in August he develops a slight lameness on the LF ONLY when it is on the outside of a circle. He is sound left and straight.
2. The end of August the vet comes, confirms my observation about the lameness, blocks the LF, the horse comes sound, suggests pulling the shoes for one cycle to grow the heel if that is the reason for the lameness. I can believe it might be as it started getting underrun this year a few months after we pulled the hinds last winter.
3. I have worked him in the arena and we was sound in both directions for a few weeks.
4. Then he had a sudden lameness while trotting left (note this is not the original problematic direction nor the original presentation because it is a separate issue).
5. Then last weekend he develops the SAME giant gimp after spinning and galloping towards me. Limping at walk also. After a few minutes he is sound at walk and almost sound at trot. Had I waited a few more minutes he probably would have been sound at trot like in the arena earlier when he gimped like that.
6. The next day I couldn't check if he was sound because he was walking like we had just pulled the shoes. Just prior to that his stride length was normal on grass and almost normal in the arena.

The vet wants him in full rockers after the heel grows out for a reason.

But...but...you have no idea, not one bit of evidence, that this is the ringbone irritated by the foot change. You have no idea if he didn't strain a DDFT, or tweak another issue...you have no idea if it is the shoeing or lack thereof. You have no proof really of anything.

I have no vested interest in when anybody puts shoes on their horses or not. But it is frustrating to read your posts...you wont do Adequan *on the recommendation of your vet* because that does not suit your need for 'evidence'... you worry about him being in pain but you aren't willing to do something that your vet even suggest might help...you jump to conclusions with any evidence at all...you could do an MRI if you really wanted to know what is going on in there. You could post his rads here and get input...Angela is such an experienced foot person and I have also successfully taken many horses barefoot through the years.

No one is telling you what to do, as far as I can tell, but I wonder that you are so quick to lump other, more experienced viewpoints as not caring whether horses are in pain or not. I certainly care quite a bit and do not nor have ever espoused a Strasserian view of the world.

You wont even take the suggestion of Magic Cushion, a product that is readily available, commonly used, and can be very comforting to a horse, because the suggestion comes from me. So if I don't believe that you are always motivated by your desire to reduce your horse's pain rather than cling to and espouse your own agendas and personal feelings, don't be surprised.

[Dresseur]

If you were worried about suffering then why did you put a club footed horse in shoes and then work him so hard? All you had to do was read up on the risks, and what happens to club footed horses when they're worked hard (they stay sound for a number of years and then the heel on the down hoof goes and then the club is next).

1. show me that reading up you did
2. define "hard"

Among other examples, I personally know a 20+ year old TB schoolmaster that has a low grade club. I'm speaking specifically about him because he has been and continues to be sound despite a hard work schedule (lessons plus schooling), and has been that way since he was acquired 10-15 years ago. I find the above to be an incredibly generic statement. Correct work and strict adherence to hoof care can keep low grade club horses sound for years. Or not. But it's not a black and white one size fits all. As with anything horse related, it all depends.

Tsavo - because some of what you describe rings similarly to what presented itself with Miro, I'd look into a soft tissue injury, specifically DDFT. It did take stall rest to calm things down - I had him on pasture for 2 months + because I was hoping it would resolve without stall rest. I would also look into trying Magic Cushion or a similar product to see if it brings some relief.

[kande50]

1. show me that reading up you did

The previous 40 years or just the more recent stuff?

2. define "hard"

The amount of work that causes significant damage.

[Tsavo]

1. show me that reading up you did

The previous 40 years or just the more recent stuff?

2. define "hard"

The amount of work that causes significant damage.

That's what I thought. Thanks anyway.

[Tsavo]

Correct work and strict adherence to hoof care can keep low grade club horses sound for years. Or not. But it's not a black and white one size fits all. As with anything horse related, it all depends.

Tsavo - because some of what you describe rings similarly to what presented itself with Miro, I'd look into a soft tissue injury, specifically DDFT. It did take stall rest to calm things down - I had him on pasture for 2 months + because I was hoping it would resolve without stall rest. I would also look into trying Magic Cushion or a similar product to see if it brings some relief.

Hi. Do you mean you think he injured his DDFT in the spin and gallop? After a few minutes he was almost sound. Does that fit? Also do you mean he injured both front DDFT? He was not limping on Sunday, just short like right after we pulled the shoes.

I am at the barn now and about to assess him... I'll report in a little while.

Also, I have asked 3 vets and they say what you said at the beginning of the quoted material... there is no a priori reason to say there is no long term per se on club footed horses. On the other hand, one did say it wasn't likely no matter what you do if in work.

Thanks.

[Tsavo]

Dresser, by the way, if you know that there is a high chance he would injure some soft tissue in his circumstance I will ask my vet about restricting him. But I have to tell you that my vet said I could ride him at walk after we pulled the shoes. I never could do it because he was so tender footed. I was going to try it on grass after his stride length came normal a few weeks ago before the theatrics.

[angela9823]

Dresser, by the way, if you know that there is a high chance he would injure some soft tissue in his circumstance I will ask my vet about restricting him. But I have to tell you that my vet said I could ride him at walk after we pulled the shoes. I never could do it because he was so tender footed. I was going to try it on grass after his stride length came normal a few weeks ago before the theatrics.

Quick question. Did your farrier trim the horse upon removal of shoes? How long was the trim he was on before pulling them? One thing I do so I don't have tender horses out of shoes - try to wait at minimum four weeks after last shoeing. Remove shoes and don't trim for another two weeks if possible. There is no callous on those hooves - especially being in shoes that long. Understand I'm not going to comment on whether shoes damaged his hooves. I don't really care about that. I've seen barefoot clubbed horses that suffer just as much as horses in shoes; some clubbed horses treated better in shoes than the barefoot counter part depending on how things are addressed. But if you trim a recently deshod horse, you are going to have a sore horse. ESPECIALLY if that horse is then trimmed with rasping at the toe. Can you give timeline of when the horse was trimmed in relation to soundness issues? If I remember in a post you said the farrier recently trimmed? How close was that to horse being more sensitive this time?

What was blocked that made the horse sounder? How high up? I am confused when you say not the hoof but then the horse was blocked and he went sounder. Was he blocked at the hoof with no resolution and then blocked again higher up with resolution?

Honestly reading this, I would automatically suspect an abscess even in shoes. Abscesses come and go on lameness. They can even be much more problematic after pulling shoes. DDFT wouldn't be my first suspicion only because there doesn't seem to be a history of those issues with this horse and doesn't sound like he suffered an injury. And I don't think he would have blocked sound low if that was the case either -but could be.

[kande50]

Correct work and strict adherence to hoof care can keep low grade club horses sound for years.

Of course it can, and the lower grade the club the lower the risk that things will go south (if other factors that affect soundness remain the same). Some low grade clubs are actually one up one down, as they don't fit the radiographic criteria to be considered a true club.

[Tsavo]

Quick question. Did your farrier trim the horse upon removal of shoes?

Yes but he was following specific trimming instructions from the vet. If left to his own experience, maybe he wouldn't have trimmed him.

How long was the trim he was on before pulling them?

I will have to check my calendar but I am pretty sure he was shod about 5 weeks prior to puling the shoe so he was due.

One thing I do so I don't have tender horses out of shoes - try to wait at minimum four weeks after last shoeing. Remove shoes and don't trim for another two weeks if possible. There is no callous on those hooves - especially being in shoes that long. Understand I'm not going to comment on whether shoes damaged his hooves. I don't really care about that. I've seen barefoot clubbed horses that suffer just as much as horses in shoes; some clubbed horses treated better in shoes than the barefoot counter part depending on how things are addressed. But if you trim a recently deshod horse, you are going to have a sore horse. ESPECIALLY if that horse is then trimmed with rasping at the toe.

Reading this I now wished he wasn't trimmed. I think you are right about that. The instructions included "roll toe from the bottom". Is that what you mean?

Can you give timeline of when the horse was trimmed in relation to soundness issues? If I remember in a post you said the farrier recently trimmed? How close was that to horse being more sensitive this time?

The original issue of the slight lameness on the LF only when going right - He was about 4 weeks into a 5 week shoeing cycle as I recall. When he started the lameness I stopped riding and just came every day to check it. After a week of no resolution I called the vet.

The spectacular lameness (take one) - This was about 2 weeks ago. He was sound trotting right. He started sound trotting left then boom... crippled. I would have to review the days when he has been trimmed to tell you when that was in relation to the sudden crippling.

The spectacular lameness (take two) - This past sunday he spins and gallops when I call him. Crippled for a few minutes.

What was blocked that made the horse sounder? How high up? I am confused when you say not the hoof but then the horse was blocked and he went sounder. Was he blocked at the hoof with no resolution and then blocked again higher up with resolution?

You're right. My timeline was unclear on this point. He came sound with a low block. So the original slight lameness on the LF was in the foot. That's why the vet suggested we pull the shoe and try to address the underrun heel.

Honestly reading this, I would automatically suspect an abscess even in shoes. Abscesses come and go on lameness. They can even be much more problematic after pulling shoes. DDFT wouldn't be my first suspicion only because there doesn't seem to be a history of those issues with this horse and doesn't sound like he suffered an injury. And I don't think he would have blocked sound low if that was the case either -but could be.

I would love you to be right about that. That also fits with tonite's observations which I will put in a separate post.

Here are the vet's notes besides what I previously wrote:

PD block LF resolves lameness
Left heels run forward, crushed digital cushion
LF +2 sole plane, 2 cm D-P imbalance
RF +6 sole plane 1.8 cm D-P imbalance
(note I was so busy guesstimating the PAs for myself that I didn't notice he wrote them in the notes. The +2 is an improvement on previous rads where he was 0 in the past.)

Severe/advancing high ringbone both front

LF coffin joint OA
LF mild OA
(Note that one of these is obviously RF but I have to ask him which because he wrote LF for both. If he was consistent in doing L then R then the second one is RF (club).)

Exercise Limited - ride at walk only for now.

[Tsavo]

Okay I think Sue B was closest without going crazy. LOL

1. Pulled from stall (initial few yards) - better than Sunday but still shorter/stiffer than he was prior to Sunday.
2. Walked on grass several hundred yards to get to the barn while avoiding the pebbles - loosened up. Stride length almost normal.
3. Lunging - both directions/walk - stride length about where it was for the arena prior to the theatrics which is about 85% of normal.
4. Trot right - was willing to start trotting when I started running so normal there. The same slight lameness on the LF was present. It had resolved for a while but it is clearly back. This is where it would be very cool if Angela is correct about an abscess.
5. Trot left - too stiff to call.
6. Trot on grass on a straight line - I don't think he was limping but very hard to say. Could go either way. Pretty stiff.

He was pretty willing to move me made me happy.

[Dresseur]

Tsavo, the slight offness only in the circle made me suspect a soft tissue, but the sudden severe lameness could be anything from abscess to soft tissue. But if it blew, you should find the tract. If it didn't blow, he would still most likely be severely off, and there would likely be a strong digital pulse and heat. It could be a severe stone bruise or something similar. In this case, if it doesn't resolve in a few days. Check for any other clues, digital pulse, heat, swelling. But I'd be inclined to do another round of rads to see if you can find anything if this does not resolve quickly. Again, chronic inflammation will create more issues. Side note, have you tried boots or anything to see if some protection makes him more comfortable?

[Tsavo]

Tsavo, the slight offness only in the circle made me suspect a soft tissue, but the sudden severe lameness could be anything from abscess to soft tissue.

Do you mean soft tissue in the foot? The PD block resolved the LF lameness.

In re the sudden lameness, it resolves within minutes. What is consistent with that?

But if it blew, you should find the tract. If it didn't blow, he would still most likely be severely off, and there would likely be a strong digital pulse and heat. It could be a severe stone bruise or something similar. In this case, if it doesn't resolve in a few days. Check for any other clues, digital pulse, heat, swelling. But I'd be inclined to do another round of rads to see if you can find anything if this does not resolve quickly. Again, chronic inflammation will create more issues. Side note, have you tried boots or anything to see if some protection makes him more comfortable?

Nothing blew. The LF lameness is about where it was 5-6 weeks ago. It is a slight lameness, not severe. It has not gotten worse since it began 5-6 weeks ago though it did go away for a few weeks and then returned.

I was going to get some boots but after the first instance of sudden lameness in the middle of a sound trot, I stopped lunging him because it was very bizarre and appeared to have no direct connection with being barefoot. He wasn't suddenly ouchy from barefoot, he was majorly tweaked by something. So I wasn't doing anything with him work wise after that so I didn't get boots. I stopped working him to avoid the major lameness but I didn't expect he would spin and gallop when turned out. We definitely lost some ground due to stiffness but I don't think he picked up any additional lameness from that episode.

[kande50]

Reading this I now wished he wasn't trimmed. I think you are right about that. The instructions included "roll toe from the bottom". Is that what you mean?

Unless the vet marked up the hoof then it's still up to the farrier how much to take off. An experienced trimmer would likely still roll the toe if the vet ordered that, but would just make the roll minuscule until the horse had developed enough hoof to support a roll.

If he has severe advancing high ringbone and OA in both front coffin bones then I suspect that the twisting when he turns affects that, because the hooves are now too weak to be able to stabilize the internal structures. That will likely improve as the hoof strengthens.

[Abby Kogler]

[quote="Tsavo-

Here are the vet's notes besides what I previously wrote:

PD block LF resolves lameness
Left heels run forward, crushed digital cushion
LF +2 sole plane, 2 cm D-P imbalance
RF +6 sole plane 1.8 cm D-P imbalance
(note I was so busy guesstimating the PAs for myself that I didn't notice he wrote them in the notes. The +2 is an improvement on previous rads where he was 0 in the past.)

Severe/advancing high ringbone both front

LF coffin joint OA
LF mild OA
(Note that one of these is obviously RF but I have to ask him which because he wrote LF for both. If he was consistent in doing L then R then the second one is RF (club).)

Exercise Limited - ride at walk only for now.

[/quote]

The comments about not trimming when first removing shoes are correct. Many farriers trim when removing shoes..its in their nature. But its really best to let the foot grow a bit, take the shoes off, and not trim for a while. Too late now for your boy, but just for general knowledge.

As to the vet report, oy. Severe advancing high rb. OA in both coffin joints. And you are blaming being barefoot for his lameness. Oy.

IMO, if you want him to have any sort of comfortable future, you need to let that LF grow.

Your vet gave you good advice. Put your horse on Adequan. Pack his feet with Magic Cushion. Put him on MSM. Rub his ankles/pasterns every day with Sore No More gelotion, horses love that, it seems very comforting to them. LET THAT CRUSHED DIGITAL CUSHION GROW and HEAL.

There are things you can do to make him more comfortable as he ages with these conditions. Please, just do them. Its so clear how much you love him. Could you please just put your biases aside and do whatever it takes to make him more comfortable? The rockers are going to just postpone the crash. Cant you get Angela to come help you and trim him for you? Sandy Judy is in your area and she is an excellent trimmer and foot girl. I know you hate me but if you were closer I would do anything I could to help you. Please. Ill buy the Pentosan. Cmon Tsavo, step up, will you? Please?

[angela9823]

IMO, if you want him to have any sort of comfortable future, you need to let that LF grow...

Your vet gave you good advice. Put your horse on Adequan. Pack his feet with Magic Cushion. Put him on MSM. Rub his ankles/pasterns every day with Sore No More gelotion, horses love that, it seems very comforting to them. LET THAT CRUSHED DIGITAL CUSHION GROW and HEAL.

I have limited time to respond over the next few days - traveling again. I have to say yes to the above! And then add to that - don't let your farrier over trim. Sometimes we respond to what vets tell us to do and we cringe because of it, but we do it anyway. Rolling the toe or backing it up on a horse that is too low in the toe, possibly has a retracted sole ("cupping" in hindfeet almost make me wonder on this), or one that has compromised heels (definite from what vet says about underrun heels and crushed DC), or incorrectly addressing back of hoof sets the horse up to have inflammation. I agree with what Dresseur said earlier...if your horse has inflammation, it creates a spiraling effect that wears bone even faster. Reading what the vet wrote, I would do exactly as Abby is instructing above. You must address this slowly though. Have farrier come out more often to trim less - very slow changes. Don't back the toe all at once, don't try to grow heel wall (but do try to increase thickness of heel overall). The less the hoof is changed by outside means, the less inflammation may pop up.

[Tsavo]

Thanks for this response.

don't try to grow heel wall (but do try to increase thickness of heel overall).

What does one do and avoid doing to prevent heel wall growth but instead increase thickness of the heel overall? What specifically addresses the heel thickness and NOT the heel wall length??

The less the hoof is changed by outside means, the less inflammation may pop up.

How do I know if there is inflammation?

You know, I looked for any outward evidence of the high ringbone and I just can't see any. It is advancing but isn't visible yet.

I will post the rads when I get them. I asked him to send them but we took a bunch at several angles at my request and I think he needs to burn them to a disk. This visit was just south of 4 figures (also treated a pinpoint ulcer on one eye plus the Adequan) and is the most expense vet call I have had outside a vet hospital yet LOL.

[kande50]

I will post the rads when I get them. I asked him to send them but we took a bunch at several angles at my request and I think he needs to burn them to a disk. This visit was just south of 4 figures (also treated a pinpoint ulcer on one eye plus the Adequan) and is the most expense vet call I have had outside a vet hospital yet LOL.

A friend recently had the vet out to stitch up an 8" gash on her horse's side (ripped it open on the stall latch) and it was over $800, so I'm not surprised that a lameness exam with blocks and rads added up.

The heel (the entire hoof) needs stimulation (movement and contact with the ground) to get stronger. The longer the wall the less stimulation the bottom of the hoof experiences. The less stimulation the bottom of the hoof experiences, the less it needs the protection from stronger, thicker digital cushion, frog, and sole.

Protecting the hoof with a boot or shoe does basically the same thing as letting the walls get long, but the advantage to boots is that they can be used when the footing is too harsh for the amount of hoof the horse has, and then they can be removed when the footing is soft or smooth enough that it can help stimulate the hoof to become stronger without causing excessive discomfort.

It's pretty much the same with humans. Wear shoes all the time and the bottom of the foot will get soft and thin; go barefoot all the time and the foot will lay down enough callous to protect it from the kind of footing it spends the most time on.

[orono]

True, but how many of us walk around on all surfaces barefoot?

[Tsavo]

I walked into Dover trying to buy some boots. I had tracing of his feet. They were all too small.

I have to order the larger size.

[kande50]

True, but how many of us walk around on all surfaces barefoot?

How many wear the same pair of shoes 24/7 for weeks at a time?

It's the reason I think that boots are so much healthier than shoes, because we can take them off and let the hoof air out when they don't need the boot for protection, which also give the hoof some stimulation so that it doesn't weaken further.

I have some horses and mules that only get trail ridden 1 day a week, and as their hooves got weaker from being shod all the time I decided to try pulling the shoes between rides. I thought I'd be able to nail the shoes back on using the same nail holes each time, but as it turned out the shoe really needed to be set back more so I was putting new nail holes in the hoof every week. But in spite of that, the hooves actually looked better (stayed cuppier and ran out less) even with all the nail holes than they did when I left the shoes on for longer between resets.

Now if I have to shoe I leave the shoes on for about 3 weeks to let the hoof grow some wall, and then pull them and go back to barefoot (I have one mule who is so pigeon-toed and so hard to fit that I can't keep front boots on him).

[kande50]

I walked into Dover trying to buy some boots. I had tracing of his feet. They were all too small.

I have to order the larger size.

Learning how to use boots effectively can be a project, but I think it's worth the effort. If you're planning to ride him in them get some with gaiters, as they can make a huge difference when it comes to keeping them on. I like the Easyboot Epics because I use them with ice calks which makes them even harder to keep on, but those who don't use ice calks seem to really like the Gloves, Renegades, and Scoot Boots.