For *controversial* inspiration or discussion. :)

[HafDressage]

Stealing the thread name.

Okay so... https://www.facebook.com/USADressage/videos/10156669843408395/UzpfSTExNDIwMjEyMTk5MTU5MjpWSzoxMDE1NjY2OTg0MzQwODM5NQ/

On the one hand: I mean AMAZING passage, excellent piros. Lots of foot perfect things including excellent activity behind.

On the other hand: The horse is nearly always opening and closing his mouth. Behind the vertical and the poll is never the highest point.

So...idk mixed emotions on it. I will say most of my fb friends are heralding it as amazing.

[Chisamba]

This horse is being asked to.perform approximately five minutes of hard task after hard task in a challenging environment and he is not allowed to chew? Or show his concentration and engagement in any way?

What do you want? Emotionless performance. Dont expect that from a living breathing animal. Go watch motorcycle riding. Bikes dont have emotions.

[piedmontfields]

I think their partnership is amazing.

But I'm less a fan of the kind of horse/mover Diddy is. I do look forward to seeing Graves on many other horses in the future.

[Chisamba]

Well now that is interesting. Discussing the movement. There has been an increased popularity in the leg moving trot breeds in dressage. By which I mean the harness bed high stepping horses crossed with warmbloods. Its most obvious in the Dutch bed horses. I agree, they ate just not as attractive to my eye as the horses that use their back and have a longer ground cover in stride

[PhoenixRising]

On the one hand I think they perform very nicely done tests, and I think Laura is a lovely rider.
On the other hand, I've never really been a big fan of how he moves. I don't personally find it all that impressive.

[Tsavo]

I never watched this pair before. There is something special between them in my opinion.

The judges must be viewing the mouth action as chewing and not lack of submission because she would get gigged on every movement for lack of submission and would not score highly. Or it is lack of submission and the judging is whack ("I'm shocked, shocked there is gambling going on here."). Based on the overall picture, the last thing that horse is showing is lack of submission.

She takes the movement in sit trot with a front to back undulation of her torso. I have never seen that before but it is effective.

[Dresseur]

While I don't love his movement, to me, it is representative of his breed, and not manufactured. I also think that he's gotten better and better, particularly in the transitions between p/p.

[HafDressage]

This horse is being asked to.perform approximately five minutes of hard task after hard task in a challenging environment and he is not allowed to chew? Or show his concentration and engagement in any way?

What do you want? Emotionless performance. Dont expect that from a living breathing animal. Go watch motorcycle riding. Bikes dont have emotions.

I'm sorry but the mouth opening and closing every stride is not "emotion." That is laughable. The mouth should be relatively quiet or have soft chewing. That is not what is shown. This could be any pair and I would have the same comment. So in your opinion, never having the poll as the highest point, always being btv, and mouth opening and closing every stride, is "normal" for 5 minutes of hard work and just shows emotion? The old dressage masters just rolled over in their graves.

We either have a standard about that stuff or we don't. I agree that in other aspects the ride was amazing, but it's hard for me to get over the look of the front end relative to classical standards. To me, this is a step back from the harmony that has gained in popularity in the post-rollkur era and what Hester's Team and Werth are offering in the way of classical standard.

[musical comedy]

HafDressage, your post reminds me of the heated BTV/RK discussions of 15+ years ago. I thought (hoped) those days were over. Discussions about this kind of stuff are enjoyed by a select set of riders/posters. Others, like me, just sit here rolling their eyes.

[Sue B]

I'm sorry but the mouth opening and closing every stride is not "emotion." That is laughable. The mouth should be relatively quiet or have soft chewing. That is not what is shown. This could be any pair and I would have the same comment. So in your opinion, never having the poll as the highest point, always being btv, and mouth opening and closing every stride, is "normal" for 5 minutes of hard work and just shows emotion? The old dressage masters just rolled over in their graves.

So, in keeping with your hyperbole, HD, I take it you prefer the mouth to be clamped shut with a good, tight, crank noseband and a joyless automaton of a horse being carted about the arena?

Laura Graves does a superb job with this horse, who, as many have said, is perhaps not the best mover and is super "emotional." Does he drop behind the vertical at times? Sure, but then again, she always tries to correct it when that happens. I was there when an ODG rode a little horse named Alherich in the Olympics. Not his best performance, he too dropped behind the vertical, in addition to other little oopsies, but their partnership was one to marvel at--just as is Laura and Verdades. Sad that you can't see that.

[Rosie B]

To dismiss a ride like this because it doesn't adhere to "the standard" for where the horse's head is positioned is to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

I would use a different word than standard - "Ideal". The classical profile - poll highest point and nose slightly IFV is an IDEAL.

Do you know what an ideal is? It's "A concept of perfection, existing merely as an image in the mind." (dictionary.com)

If "neck and head position" was that important, it would be on the training pyramid. Annnnnd it's not. It's not there because it's of marginal importance when compared to the things that ARE on the pyramid, and this ride is exemplary of those things.

[Ponichiwa]

I like this pair a lot-- Verdades looks and moves a lot like my old GP guy. Almost identical-- except for the huge score and the fact that Laura is a 10000x better rider than I am.

[Dresseur]

The only place where he really dips behind the vertical is in the one passage section. By and large though, he's really not that bad in the shape, and it gets better throughout the ride. The p/p transitions are a lot smoother than most pairs, and that says a lot IMO about the direction the training and riding has taken. He is a hot horse, and I think that the mouth while busy, is not crossing or gnashing or gaped open. I think that it is showing his worry, but she's managing him remarkably well.

[Ponichiwa]

The only place where he really dips behind the vertical is in the one passage section. By and large though, he's really not that bad in the shape, and it gets better throughout the ride. The p/p transitions are a lot smoother than most pairs, and that says a lot IMO about the direction the training and riding has taken. He is a hot horse, and I think that the mouth while busy, is not crossing or gnashing or gaped open. I think that it is showing his worry, but she's managing him remarkably well.

Agreed. Also, the entire video is filmed from above. Not a great angle for diagnosing on/behind vertical issues.

[khall]

I like the partnership between the two. Diddy was a difficult horse in his earlier years so it is inspiring how much he trusts Laura now and can go in and keep it all together even in some challenging venues. His natural way of moving is not something I would pick. Too much of the look of a Hackney.

I did not think his piri's were very good, first was too big, second he almost stepped backwards. While his passage is good, his piaffe does not sit enough for me. Reminds me of Remi years ago. That makes it easier to move from piaffe to passage. It is a good pair though and I hope they do well at WEG.

I've heard very good things about Laura as an instructor and trainer. She is in FL (or was) and has worked with some rescue horses down there for a rescue. Seems to remember where she comes from.

[HafDressage]

I'm sorry but the mouth opening and closing every stride is not "emotion." That is laughable. The mouth should be relatively quiet or have soft chewing. That is not what is shown. This could be any pair and I would have the same comment. So in your opinion, never having the poll as the highest point, always being btv, and mouth opening and closing every stride, is "normal" for 5 minutes of hard work and just shows emotion? The old dressage masters just rolled over in their graves.

So, in keeping with your hyperbole, HD, I take it you prefer the mouth to be clamped shut with a good, tight, crank noseband and a joyless automaton of a horse being carted about the arena?

Laura Graves does a superb job with this horse, who, as many have said, is perhaps not the best mover and is super "emotional." Does he drop behind the vertical at times?

Lol why would the opposite of not opening the mouth every stride be clamping their mouth shut? Clearly a quiet mouth like you see with CD, CH, or IW would be the goal. But all of these horses are scoring the same? So, that is my issue.

I agree that she does a superb job with a difficult horse. As I said, I'm not bashing her, but I do have mixed emotions on the ride/score. It's not a occasional drop btv, he is nearly always behind the vertical with the poll not the highest point. And that in combination with the mouth opening and closing every stride, does make it hard for me to really find this a match between score and ride.

KHall - I agree with nearly all of your points in general.

The only place where he really dips behind the vertical is in the one passage section. By and large though, he's really not that bad in the shape, and it gets better throughout the ride. The p/p transitions are a lot smoother than most pairs, and that says a lot IMO about the direction the training and riding has taken. He is a hot horse, and I think that the mouth while busy, is not crossing or gnashing or gaped open. I think that it is showing his worry, but she's managing him remarkably well.

You could pause the video at any point and you will see he is nearly never up in the poll and almost never comes to the vertical. The mouth is more than busy. Now maybe that is just showing worry, but then is the goal not relaxation? Soooo...again a mismatch to me between score and standard.

You guys are taking this a little too personal. While I agree that the old UDBB went nuts on this stuff and it was too much, it's also okay to continue having discussions about what is classical and what is not. So, have a debate about classical dressage without getting your panties in a twist.

[Rosie B]

HafDressage wrote: Clearly a quiet mouth like you see with CD, CH, or IW would be the goal. But all of these horses are scoring the same? So, that is my issue.

But they're not scoring the same. In 2015 when Charlotte won the GPS with Valegro, she got an 87.6%. There is a big difference in a performance that scores 80.6% and one that scores %87.6.

[demi]

I really like this pair. I gained a lot of respect for Graves after Gwen posted a lesson that she took on Callie. Callie was quite nervous and I thought Graves handled it compassionately.
I also noticed during the test that HafDressage posted, Graves touched him on the neck. It was a very quick touch, not a pat or slap, just a touch. She understands him. And then when the test was finished, it looked like she gave him a big hug before the camera went to the sidelines. When the camera came back to Graves and her boy, she was patting him a lot. They have a strong bond.

[Chisamba]

I think Hafdresage is so sure she is right no amount of comment, thoughtful, kind or snarky, is going to knock her if her pedestal of perfection.

I used to be like that. Then I gained a bit of wisdom and perception. Grand Prix is a hard job for a horse. The pinnacle of competition performance. I would prefer to see a horse allowed to express its stress. I have seen Laura and Diddy perform live. Their partnership was lovely, he us a nervous horse and she is there for him.

I suppose we could just ban nervous horses from competition, and then we could ban leg movers, then we could banish anyone not poll high . It would be easy because then dressage would cease to exist...which is probably the long term goal.

[Chisamba]

HafDressage, your post reminds me of the heated BTV/RK discussions of 15+ years ago. I thought (hoped) those days were over. Discussions about this kind of stuff are enjoyed by a select set of riders/posters. Others, like me, just sit here rolling their eyes.

I have changed from an avid participant to an eye roller. Lol. I guess I spat out the kool aid

[Ryeissa]

Thank God for Laura! She has been a breath of fresh air for the last few years. I love her riding and harmony. She and Charlotte have both done a lot to restore my faith in Grand Prix. This was a lovely test and I'm not quite sure there would be any use in picking it apart at this point.

He looks up into the contact, and I think it is a very nice expression. I didn't see any of the negative pointed out in this thread?

I find myself wanting to watch dressage again, so to me that's a win. If people want to get super negative that's fine, but based on the previous 10 years this is a huge step in the right direction. At some point I begin to wonder if some people are never happy?

[kande50]

[quote="Ryeissa"]At some point I begin to wonder if some people are never happy?[/quote

I woudn't expect any less from those who have chosen the Dressage sinkhole, because as we all know, there's always room for improvement.

[HafDressage]

I think Hafdresage is so sure she is right no amount of comment, thoughtful, kind or snarky, is going to knock her if her pedestal of perfection.

Lol, I'm only as convinced I'm right as you are. I'm not someone who bashes top riders, nor did I bash LG. I think she probably is all of the above nice things that people have said and is doing an amazing job with a difficult horse. That being said, I still don't think an 80% GP ride is one where the horse is opening and closing it's mouth every stride. That is my understanding of classical dressage based on my years of training and every classical lesson or text I've ever gotten/read - nerves or not.

At some point I begin to wonder if some people are never happy?

I mean who is unhappy? A discussion about what classical dressage should look as it pertains to one ride, is hardly never happy.

For added discussion, I really like KPG ride the next day. For me, a more classical look all around:

https://www.facebook.com/USADressage/videos/1787183208026800/

[Chisamba]

This is competitive dressage. "Classical " dressage has many vague definitions and flavors. Some consider baucher classical, some consider that guy with the spotted stallion (can't remember his name) classical. Some consider the Spanish riding school classical. Most of these di not have to test not adhere to competition principles. Like it or not, competition dressage is a different arena.

Anyone who can perform the requirements for a test at home then suddenly discover that they dont ride quite as easily in competing knows that.

The first time I went up through the levels I assumed that once I got to PSG , GP would be easy. What an ignorant pip I was. The chasm from PSG to GP is bigger than training level to fourth.

I have always thought relaxation was a ridiculous description for a dressage horse. Relaxation is what they do when their dummy is full, the flies aren't a bother and the weather is present.

Relaxation is not possible in GP. As for submission. Another term I hate. Partnership would be a better one, or co operation.

Of course wiser old farts than me chose the wording, so I'm just a wasted breath.

[Chisamba]

PS. Also reminded me of Ahlerich only Laura is a much quieter rider.

[Rosie B]

Chisamba wrote: Relaxation is not possible in GP. As for submission. Another term I hate. Partnership would be a better one, or co operation.

You know, I almost wrote something about this earlier but thought better of it. But since you bring it up, here goes.

Those of you who are dismayed by the mouth movement in LG's test - have you ever really pushed yourself in sport? I mean REALLY pushed yourself. To the point where every fibre of your being is focused on doing the task at hand? If you have, and you are aware of what you're doing with your mouth, and it's super relaxed, kudos to you. That's more than I've ever accomplished.

Ideally the horse should have a quiet mouth. We all get that. But GP is HARD. If a horse is doing a beautiful job meeting all the (real) requirements for the level, and has a mouth that's a little busy, I'm not going to bat my eyelids at a score that's reflective of the high quality work that's being done.

[khall]

There is a difference IMO with actual tension and worry and positive tension and power needed for GP. A horse has to be able to listen to the rider in order to complete a GP test, they CANNOT do that when they are in fight or flight mode which is what I consider to be tension. Looking back at Debbie M's last test with Bretina when Bretina was so concerned about the venue and their test kind of fell apart. When I consider how a horse has to have power but attention, I think of a gymnast doing a floor routine. They have to have power and positive tension but they have to be able to focus and concentrate, just like a dressage horse.

[Dresseur]

The first time I went up through the levels I assumed that once I got to PSG , GP would be easy. What an ignorant pip I was. The chasm from PSG to GP is bigger than training level to fourth.

Nothing to add right now except, amen to this.

[Ryeissa]

I think Hafdresage is so sure she is right no amount of comment, thoughtful, kind or snarky, is going to knock her if her pedestal of perfection.

Lol, I'm only as convinced I'm right as you are. I'm not someone who bashes top riders, nor did I bash LG. I think she probably is all of the above nice things that people have said and is doing an amazing job with a difficult horse. That being said, I still don't think an 80% GP ride is one where the horse is opening and closing it's mouth every stride. That is my understanding of classical dressage based on my years of training and every classical lesson or text I've ever gotten/read - nerves or not.

At some point I begin to wonder if some people are never happy?

I mean who is unhappy? A discussion about what classical dressage should look as it pertains to one ride, is hardly never happy.

For added discussion, I really like KPG ride the next day. For me, a more classical look all around:

https://www.facebook.com/USADressage/videos/1787183208026800/

What exactly do people (generally) want? this is a billion times better than the RK crap 5-7 yrs ago. It shows harmony and beauty. I am amazed that some people can't see that....? And by "some people" I mean the nay sayers slamming them on FB. Really?

I guess I'm not seeing the tension here, to be honest? The body showed relaxation over the back. A mouth issue can be a big deal, or not. Depends on the context. Some just chomp for no reason. HE was really really hot that day, so it is more of a personality thing vs bad riding. I see no evidence of riding issues that would induce tension in the mouth