Reactivity / Hot off the Leg Challenge Supporters

[piedmontfields]

Xan, with rehab it totally makes sense that you have to deliberately get in the minutes! It just struck me as kind of a lot, but you are doing it in small chunks.

I would say that when I do trot or canter sets, we are in a working gait. I'm posting or in a light seat. It's not "collected" but we are also not dumping on the forehand--I mean the horse is on the bit! lol My mare really enjoys her "dumb" aerobics days-----she gets to motor around a large field and enjoy the view, without worrying about doing a particular exercise or needing to think about what comes next. It is very relaxing for both of us. Sometimes "dumb aerobics" is all I can handle after work!

[blob]

a couple summers ago I spent some time working on MM's fitness. I also did timed sets, but because I know just cantering or trotting for the sake of cantering or trotting is not THAT productive for a horse like MM, I alternated. Though, I don't think we ever got to 20 minutes of cantering!

I'd do a few minutes of cantering in two point--just forward and open canter. Then I'd sit and do a working dressage canter going between collected and medium for maybe 1-2 minutes and then I'd go back up into two point and just forward and open. That way I was getting all types of work in and keeping things interesting.

[demi]

The Baby Brontosaurus is turning 7 in June so really, time to think of a new nickname.

BroHoss

[demi]

I am following this latest part of the thread. I use the equilab and it is a real help for knowing how much of each gait we are actually doing vs how much it feels like we are doing. With the app I know for sure that I am now doing 10-12 minutes of trot for most areana workouts and only 2-4 minutes of canter. This is just fine for us at this point. I think I can work up to 10 minutes of canter, which doesn’t sound like much, but the quality of the canter is the issue. She can canter on her forehand forever, but I am asking her to canter with a more elevated forehand and she finds that very difficult.

We are all in diffent places with different horses, with different conformations, and all that. So it’s interesting to see what everyone else is going through. Rocky use to have a hard time just doing two 20m trot circles in a more elevated carriage. Now I am really happy that we get a good 10-12 minutes.

Another consideration for my situation, is that even if Rocky could do 10 minutes of canter off the forehand, I wouldn’t want to do it just yet because she is only about 8 months out from a torn suspensory. Yeah, it’s Sloooowwww going, so I try to “live and build on the small number of good steps”. This board helps me because I can see that I’m not in the slow boat alone.

[Xanthoria]

The Baby Brontosaurus is turning 7 in June so really, time to think of a new nickname.

BroHoss

Hah!

[Xanthoria]

Xan, with rehab it totally makes sense that you have to deliberately get in the minutes! It just struck me as kind of a lot, but you are doing it in small chunks.

I would say that when I do trot or canter sets, we are in a working gait. I'm posting or in a light seat. It's not "collected" but we are also not dumping on the forehand--I mean the horse is on the bit! lol My mare really enjoys her "dumb" aerobics days-----she gets to motor around a large field and enjoy the view, without worrying about doing a particular exercise or needing to think about what comes next. It is very relaxing for both of us. Sometimes "dumb aerobics" is all I can handle after work!

Yes to dumb aerobics! A lot of this is just “couch to 5k” jogging for fitness, tendon/ligament strength and to see if he stays sound TBH. And I’d love to do this on a galloping track but the nearest one is a 45 min trailer ride away... I’d be shocked if we ever get to 20 mins of proper canter in the bit etc In fact I suspect the vet will revise that request if I ask if she really meant him to get THAT fit....

[piedmontfields]

I would love access to a galloping track.

I was doing some aerobic laps today. After a hack to the XC field and about 10 minutes of trot warm-up, we did 4 sets of 2.5 minutes canter, 30 seconds-1 minute walking rest (switching leads each set). It would be easier work in the arena or on a track, but the undulating field really makes her pay attention and work for good balance on the ups and downs. She felt awesome on a very hot May day here Thank god/dess for horses that sweat well.

For contrast an eventer pair at my barnwho are competing at Intermediate did 2 6 minute gallop sets (at competition pace) including some jumps. That is a whole other level of conditioning!

[Xanthoria]

Oh actual galloping! I remember that... Bronto wouldn’t recognize a true gallop unless a horde of quail attacked him in the pasture (he has an unfounded fear of tiny birds...) while being chased with a lunge whip...

[piedmontfields]

Yeah, we usually need something like the batwing mower opening up and dropping behind us to get into a proper gallop...and even it is incredibly slow.

Piedmont and what my DH calls my Spanish cart horse

[Ryeissa]

I do once or twice a week a session of just hillwork, which I realize is not possible in some areas. I also have a water jump on site so good for leg conditioning.

[blob]

I really miss having a field large enough to gallop in. It really made MM a lot more forward and happy to have a galloping day every now and then.

I do have some pastures to ride in with some moderate hills, which I try to take advantage of as much as possible. But neither the hills nor the space are particularly large. Still, it's something to get a change of pace.

I'm also hoping this summer we can get out for more field trips for trail rides, hunter paces, etc. I don't have a trailer, so it's not as easy to do it whenever. But also, it's not something I would likely to do alone anyway. I have a friend who also tries to get her horse out as much as possible, so we often go together. MM is a good buddy for her horse, who is calm and happy as long as his trail companion doesn't try to get in front of him. And MM is perfectly content to bring up the rear.

[piedmontfields]

I have had access to much larger spaces (1000s of public acres) at past barns, but I am grateful for the not quite 200 acres I have access to now.

Hills here are no joke. One of our routine routes has a 35%+ grade.

[AmityBee]

Even though this thread hits close to home I haven't joined in because reactivity, while being very important, isn't what I've been pondering and working on lately. I can get a "go" but I still feel my horse isn't staying in front of my leg as consistantly as I would like him to. And (and this is becoming more and more important to me) he's just being obedient and not going forward because it's easy and fun for him. What I want is a horse that's "light" to my aids and who's enjoying work.

I feel that there is a reasons for "lazy" (just as I feel like there is a reason for "hot"). It may be strength, balance, tension, pain... whatever. Lazy, hot, spooky... I feel that most of the time these are signs of evasion. Signs that our horse can't quite do what we ask of them.

So, lately we have been working on that. And it seems like we are actually getting somewhere. We've had a good winter most of our rides felt like progress, I'm not as frustrated with him anymore.

What happed is that we took forward sort of off the menu (mentally and physically, for both of us). I know that sounds weird but what we did is, we added slow. After a propper warm up at walk and a bit of trot we do a lot of work in school/counted walk. Especially the lateral work. And we kind of "invented" school trot. As long as he keeps the rhythm we're good. He needs to "carry" himself much more this way and this has worked wonders for Crispins strength, straighness and overall balance. And since this kind of work is hard, he's now quite happy to turn his new found abilities into going forward when asked to.

And I think Xan is quite right, fitness does play a big role in forwardness.

I feel this is true for most "energy efficient" horses. Definitely true for us. I have been doing some kind of conditioning but also always wanted to do it more seriously and with a plan. I do have an about 400m round track available. Nothing fancy, just a strip mowed into a field of triticale.

But thanks to Xan I finally downloaded an interval timer (and Equilab as well).

In the past I did my "interval" training by doing rounds (on trot, half a round walk, one canter...). Turns out that wasn't too bad as a baseline for more.

I decided to start with 3 intervals of 5min trot/2min walk followed by 3 intervals of 3min canter/2min walk. Turns out Crispin was doing well with that. Trot was no issue at all, canter was OK (I did drop the last canter interval and did trot instead, I didn't have time for a sweaty horse yesterday ).

As for long warm ups. Crispin needs a very long warm up too. I don't think he has any health issues either, he just needs time to get going. Less so on the track more when I want to work on dressage. I do at least 20 min of walk and I will not go into trot work before I get a nice, reaching free walk from my horse. BUT, I have to admit that I don't really have forward issues at the walk anymore. This used to be different. Right now I will happily work him at the walk for 30 min because he actually feels quite good at it. I hope (actually, I'm confident) that we will get to the same point in all three gaits sooner or later.

[piedmontfields]

Hi Amitybee-

Your journey sounds thoughtful and productive!

I admit to still being a bit jekyll and hyde (like my mare) about reactivity. I sometimes make the mistake of just insisting on reaction + motoring and I neglect to let her really limber up. I mean, I don't want to roll out of bed and run as fast as I can! It's really not fair to expect that from her (unless I've gotten her from running around her field). So I have to remain mindful about reactions. Tonight, I did the more deliberate dial-up of all gaits and was pleased. Doing easy trot-canter-trot-canter transitions in half seat seemed especially helpful.

Also, I really tend to agree with you on why they don't react---and acknowledge that it is often physical/about physical capacity. This is why winter can be such a challenge for us (PSSM tight muscles), but even little sorenesses or fatigue can play a part in what is a reasonable reaction. I also think we can easily underestimate the amount of strength a horse of a given conformation needs to perform in the way that we'd like.

p.s. I love the name Crispin!

[blob]

I admit to still being a bit jekyll and hyde (like my mare) about reactivity. I sometimes make the mistake of just insisting on reaction + motoring and I neglect to let her really limber up. I mean, I don't want to roll out of bed and run as fast as I can! It's really not fair to expect that from her (unless I've gotten her from running around her field). So I have to remain mindful about reactions. Tonight, I did the more deliberate dial-up of all gaits and was pleased. Doing easy trot-canter-trot-canter transitions in half seat seemed especially helpful.

This is a hard and tricky line sometimes. Does a horse need time to warm up for performance? Yes. Does a horse need time to warm up for obedience/responsiveness? The answer should be no. But I think too often it's easy to confuse the two. This used to be a very hard distinction for me and I've worked hard to try to stay consistent on it.

I don't expect MM to come out with her A+ trot. But I have to insist that if I put leg on, she gives me more trot/some forward reaction no matter what. Of course this also means I have to be really careful and clear, my leg has to only give the aids I mean and not create 'noise'.

I also find it helpful to think of performance on a scale/gradient. If MM"s best trot is 10 and her out the warm-up/pony trot is a 5, then I need to be mindful about when I will ask her to scale up and to what degree. Meaning, it's always ok for me to ask to go from a 5 to a 6 for a few strides. But i can't expect us to go from 5 to 10, that's unfair. It's helpful when I think about it in steps, that way I can be insistent that she gives me a response, but also keep myself from jumping to high performance too early.

[piedmontfields]

"that way I can be insistent that she gives me a response, but also keep myself from jumping to high performance too early."

Blob, this makes lots of sense and is similar to my approach. But I also want to be aware of changing conditions! (colder than normal, aging horse, new problem that is impacting the GO, etc.).

I am naturally kind of a hard ass about training/working---and my mare is a super hard worker like me, but I am also very compassionate on a routine basis. I do not want to destroy any being for my goals. Lately I've been reflecting on how I taught yoga vs. how I train the horse (I no longer teacher yoga due to health issues). I was a specific, demanding, compassionate, health + growth-oriented yoga teacher! If I could consistently achieve that with horses, I would be pleased. And the horse wouldn't mind

(I did get a lot more chances to practice on people than horses---since I've only ever had one horse at a time.)

[blob]

Yes, that makes sense. A lot of it is about balancing our natural tendencies with what our horses need.

I am not naturally a hard ass at all. I've always done well with nervous/hot horses because I excel at being quiet, steady, and maintaining normal and calm among chaos and change. MM is the first horse I've worked with for longer than a couple weeks who does not need to be told everything is ok. Who does not have excess energy that needs to be channeled. So, for me I have to tell myself with each ride 'you WILL DEMAND RESPONSE'. Because far too often I make excuses for MM's lack of response and let her phone it in. It's made our progress together much slower than if either of us had a different partner.

[khall]

I don't really agree that the lack of reactivity indicates physical issues always. It can, but it can also be that particular horse's tendencies. It has nothing to do with being hot or lazy IMO. In fact a hot horse can often be behind the leg. I do agree fitness plays a part and IMO training that being consistent with our requests and particular about our requests. Rather than thinking reactive I like to think of sensitive to the aids. This can be trained into the horse but with some it is innate in them. A forward horse is also not always sensitive to the aids. I help with one that is very much like this. She has a motor (TB/perch pssm1 large mare) forward is not an issue, but she is not sensitive to the aids. She is not innately light in the feet. She is learning but it is a chore and a physical ride many times. Rip was like this but with training and consistent work he has become much lighter to the aids, still not necessarily a forward horse but definitely much easier to ride and takes much less aids to ride than he did earlier on. Now my personal preference is a sensitive light to the aids horse but sensible to ride. Joplin is going to be like this, her dam was as well. My ballet horse as opposed to my combat boots aka Rip. I help with a OTTB g that is very light and sensitive to the aids but is not a hot horse, very sensible. I also help with an Azteca young g that is the same. Not a hot horse or really particularly forward though he is easy to motivate but is light in the feet sensitive to the aids yet extremely sensible to work with. I call these type of horses Goey or light footed, where ones like Rip or the draft cross, not sensitive or ground bound. Funny the draft cross mare is easy to work with in some ways because her brain is so good, very clean minded. Rip is so difficult because the wheels are always turning. Mark called him monkey minded and it fits. This busy mindedness gets in the way of training very often. Rip has gotten so much better over the years and riding him has become so much fun these days and the work does wonders at concentrating that busy mind especially the harder work aka piaffe SW etc.

One of Mark's teachings that stuck well with me over the years is that a balanced and relaxed horse is more willing to go forward. Rip had trouble earlier on with balking and it tied in with being crooked. Once he got enough training on him to be straighter he quit the balking. So for me it is a multi faceted issue that I have dealt with in more than one horse.

[kande50]

This used to be different. Right now I will happily work him at the walk for 30 min because he actually feels quite good at it. I hope (actually, I'm confident) that we will get to the same point in all three gaits sooner or later.

I think this may be another of those "less is more/make haste slowly" things. We can try to skip all the prep and just insist that the horse do this or do that, but then all we get is a tense horse who moves, but is too tense to do anything the way we'd like him to.

[piedmontfields]

Sometimes I think I or my horse will be dead before I figure out the perfect recipe for her warm-up and work! (and am able to perform that recipe on demand)

That said, there really is something to nailing the *right* tempo, and not the pseudo forward (usually rushing) tempo that I've had too many people model or insist upon to me. I know when Emi's hoofs are very quiet and her gait feels springy like her joints are actually absorbing impact that we are on the right track. When her feet hit hard (if if she "looks good and forward"), it is not so good. I was thinking about this today on our hack (mostly walk) and it is also true at the walk---there is a correct tempo where her feet are so soft when they land, and a rush when they hit much harder.