You thoughts on 8/9 year olds at GP

[Tanga]

This is something new that has been gaining ground since, unfortunately, Valegro won the Olympics at 9. (I thought he was way over scored there.) Now we regularly see 8 and 9 year olds at the "top" of the world, and a lot of them seem to be Charlotte Dujardin's, though there are many others. Gio was 9, Freestyle (who disappeared because of "issues") was 8 or 9, and her new one is just 9. It seems just fine if CD does it. Heglestrand was on a 9 year old, Ashly Holzer, and, sadly, Dufor on a 10 year old.

I think this is bad. Yes. These horses are super talented. But how does that negate the time and training it takes to correctly condition and get the movements? Bone growth doesn't change. The bones in the spine and head don't close until 6 and 7. They shouldn't be stressed until then. The time it takes to condition and strengthen muscle and tissue doesn't change. Yes, you can play piaffe with a two year old in the ground and condition without riding, but it takes many years after backed to truly condition anything. How is this a good sign that dressage is about training if this is done so young? And how is it for the best of the horse?

I'd love to hear some actual reasoning that makes sense. Every time I see these young horses, no matter who is, I post this . Almost everyone agrees. Unless it's about CD's horses. Then it's all how dare you, you know nothing, CD and CH are perfect, and name calling. No one can give a cogent argument why it is OK. I have had a judge say they had an 8 year old start GP and the horse was fine, and that Ahlerich was 7 in the Olympics!!!! I hate that, but 1982 dressage was a whole different level, and I find it hard to believe he would think that way now. Bella Rose was apparentl young, but she's been lame in a lot of her rides from what I see and from the comments on ClipMyHorse Deutshland. We banned rolkur for the best of the horse, and yet I don't know of any crippled horses from this. How is this any different than that? Just because some horses seem fine and the "top" peple do it, does that make it OK? Can't we learn and do better?

I always go back to Lipiszzaners starting their horses at 6 and routinely doing the highest level work into their late 20's and 30's. How is it normal and OK a horse is lame and/or retired in their late teens?

[Josette]

I totally agree with you that it is bad for the horse but when has bad training ever stopped anyone? It's done across multiple riding disciplines because there is a demand and market that brings in big business. IMO it's really all about buyers with very deep wallets who will pay $$$$$$ for these talented and highly trained horses. The welfare or longevity of the horse is not a priority once money has changed hands. There's always another sale horse and wealthy customer to come along.

[Tanga]

100% agree Josette. All of the money is in selling expensive horses young, pushing them up, drugs, medical care, etc. There is zero incentive for anyone to make money by going slower and doing it better. I'm just stunned anyone would publicly disagree this is not good, but they are. Mostly it's how dare you say anything about CD. It's all good to criticize Hegelstrand for the same thing.

[Kyras_Mom]

I agree with you. I also have to question the breeding directions with the gaits. I don’t like it…the Uber long legged spidery movers (like Jovian in the thread fromTOB). That is another discussion I guess. But yes, proper movement or not, it has to take a toll on a skeleton that is not adequately built up to the work.

I am a nobody ammy who is still doing basic work on a sound 20yo (not her fault…I was the unsound one). I guess I only have to follow my own heart and not try to keep up with the elite riders. I watched a ride of medium level by CD. I don’t know how old the horse was…probably 6. She had plenty of bobbles but what I like about that horse was that the mare had very regular tempo and at this level was fairly ‘normal’ in gaits. Oh she scored mid 70’s but the pair actually looked human and a learning horse. I guess maybe one reason that CD and CH get a pass is that you know from their SM that their horses live like horses should…getting turn out and going on hacks. I don’t know but it seems like the judging needs to change …as with all disciplines, people are going to train and show what is getting rewarded? Maybe a rule change through FEI to increase the minimum age of the horse?

Some of my meandering thoughts on the subject.

Susan

[Chisamba]

I think ten is almost too young for GP. Used to be if you saw a teen year old at GP you felt it was probably pushed. Or at least I did.

[Tanga]

I think ten is almost too young for GP. Used to be if you saw a teen year old at GP you felt it was probably pushed. Or at least I did.

Agree. 10 is too young. Dufur is riding a 10 year old, and this was very disappointing, too. I accidentally started Quilla at GP at 11 because I thought she was 12 (math problem!) She did OK, and then went backwards, so I pulled her back and got her in better shape and more confident to do the movements and then brought her back.

I wonder if this will become the rolkur and people will care, or big business will win out.

[Tanga]

I agree with you. I also have to question the breeding directions with the gaits. I don’t like it…the Uber long legged spidery movers (like Jovian in the thread fromTOB). That is another discussion I guess. But yes, proper movement or not, it has to take a toll on a skeleton that is not adequately built up to the work.

I am a nobody ammy who is still doing basic work on a sound 20yo (not her fault…I was the unsound one). I guess I only have to follow my own heart and not try to keep up with the elite riders. I watched a ride of medium level by CD. I don’t know how old the horse was…probably 6. She had plenty of bobbles but what I like about that horse was that the mare had very regular tempo and at this level was fairly ‘normal’ in gaits. Oh she scored mid 70’s but the pair actually looked human and a learning horse. I guess maybe one reason that CD and CH get a pass is that you know from their SM that their horses live like horses should…getting turn out and going on hacks. I don’t know but it seems like the judging needs to change …as with all disciplines, people are going to train and show what is getting rewarded? Maybe a rule change through FEI to increase the minimum age of the horse?

Some of my meandering thoughts on the subject.

Susan

100% agree here, too. How is this about TRAINING if you can do it so young "naturally?"

Like I said, I post this everywhere with Deb Bennett's bone study, and almost everyone agrees. But you DARE criticize CD and CH and no way. You are bad and wrong. The thing is, a lot of these horses live the same way as theirs in Europe. I think most of the top horses do turn outs and hacks and all of that.

One US judge responded to me saying a few things, like a little knowledge is dangerous and I shouldn't post it. (I won't name her.) I could never get an answer from a single person explaining how this is about training and how you get around physiology. The best I got was naturally talented horses and riders already have it and don't need to overwork their horses. I get the situation judges are in, esp. in Europe. They only judge what they see before them, but they also don't get hired in prestigious shows if they go against the big people. The ones I've talked to personally and had respond to this (Osinski and Dover) had to be very politic in their answers, clearly. They are in a tough spot, too.

[Ryeissa]

I think it sets a terrible precendent

[blob]

I agree. But I also think the sport is encouraging it, not just through breeding, but also by FEI.

Let's say we go with the often stated sentiment that a horse should go up one level a year.
If a 4 year old is doing training level, then that same horse would be doing 12 at GP and that's with no set backs and obviously a pretty ambitious timeline, since I think most of us know it's not always easy, practical, or possible to go up one level a year esp when you get to the higher levels. But ok, 12 seems ok for a very ambitious horse and rider pair.

But if we look at the FEI young horse tests. The 7 year old test would put a horse on track to be doing GP at 9 or 10. So, most of these very famous riders on the international stage are probably focusing their young horses towards the guidelines suggested by FEI via those young horse tests.

I'm not saying this to excuse the riders or trainers for being too ambitious with their horses, but rather just to point out that this is probably another factor driving this trend.

[Tanga]

Blob. You are 100% right, also. The timeline is ambitious, but reasonable. And I agree, and have had many judges say the same, about the young horse tests. It's a bad trend. These riders skip the levels and just do these tests and go up faster, and more money and fame for everyone. And that's where all of the publicity and "fame" is. Right next to those stories are all of the ads for things being sold because these horses have to be taken care of.

[exvet]

IMO this is no different than the issues with 'futurities' in many of the breed shows. All of these are designed to showcase young horses and push them for a return on their breeding, their athleticism (or whatever) and provide payouts in more than just winnings. This is the machine of horse showing and it's repeated in almost every vein of equestrian pursuits. The justification for many is that the good ones will rise to the top and last the test of time; but do they? In college I worked for a 'stable' with a BNT dressage queen, now deceased. She used to piss through horses in trying to make them the next FEI star. My job, to turn those who broke down into hunter/jumpers to be sold on and somehow recoup her cash. The game then was importing, and we were bringing in a lot of Europe's cast aways.....that..... along with her shortcuts kept me very busy through school. The FEI young horse tests and developing series is just a more glorified and public demonstration of the same self-gratification AND business. I can't say that I'm a fan of this no matter how good the training. But these tests were developed to showcase the breeding trends. Make it better, make it cheaper to get to the end goal and that means do it faster. Unfortunately, time is a necessary component to develop bone density (not begging for a 'discussion' on this topic), strengthen tendons and ligaments and build muscle safely and to last - applying the right kind of stressors at the appropriate developmental stage can affect an athlete's longevity (physically and mentally), horses are no different. That all being said, money is the driving force and time eats into that. While dressage in premise is to foster and hold dear these principles for the betterment and good of the horse, that is not always going to be the reality of a business or the individuals who are seeking to win at the game. To be fair there are plenty of breeding programs that do see the benefit of maintaining training practices that support equine longevity and health but it's not often that they're showcased in the same way.

[Tanga]

100% exvet On the one post I was attacked not a single person could respond about how it was OK physiologicially to push a horse this fast. Just that it was fine. It's ALL about money. Futurities, and that's what those young horse tests are, are the death of true sport. Nothing about any of this is about training. It's about turning horses into more money for some people.

[khall]

Well imo when a trainer/rider is showing at international level dressage it tends to be more about the ego of the rider than about what’s in the best interest of the horse. I do think CH has some of this right in that they do care for their horses very differently than most international riders do. But to ride and compete at that level is a whole other world.

We all know very often the horse gets the short end of the stick when it comes down to it.

Go look at international 4 and 5 * eventing. Horses die for the rider’s wants and desires.

[Chisamba]

The truth is you can teach the tricks a lot quicker than muscle and brain and bone develop

[Flight]

It's all about business now. Incorrect movement is rewarded with good marks. Watch a lot of piaffe and passage, horses are either not bending those hind joints, doing the stepping on a tightrope thing, or stepping really wide. It's not correct development. But they are getting decent scores, and riders and judges dont recognise it? Or don't care?
The whole it's ok to ride BTV, or with a compressed outline. It's not great for the horses, but it's much easier to ride them that way and it's not considered a bad thing anymore.
The breeding is of talented horses that can offer these movements. Horses are just so submissive and willing to try so they do it.
Horses are on joint supplements as soon as they are undersaddle.

There's a lot more horse welfare stuff coming out now, which is great. Embarrassing it has to be done though to be honest. I feel there's a loss of general horse care.
For us on here, we tend to have our horses as our pets etc, so we want them to last and be sound/happy. I'm sure the top riders do love their horses too, but there's a different drive behind it perhaps.

[Tanga]

Argh, this is so sad. And a WHOLE bunch of people are attacking me because I "dare" criticize CD. A lot of insults, and the best response they can give is the horses are retired (in their teens) and have happy lives, or so and so did it, and the horse was fine. Not a single person will answer how this is e best for the horse, let alone how it is possible to be about training and physiologically correct. Even the judge defended it because she had done it. We all have done bad stuff and hopefully learn and do better.

I can't see anyone really stepping up to call this out. There is no money in it. I really can't see how rolkur is any worse than this. I mean, how many horses were crippled by rolkur? I don't think any really known. It was just "bad" riding and looks bad. You can't see riding a horse too young too hard on the outside.

Sigh. I am so frustrated. I'm glad I'm old and will be out of the sport withing 10 years. I just don't even want to move forward with it.

[Flight]

There are a lot of people who would agree with you Tanga, but not enough to change it.

[Chisamba]

I think the horse welfare stuff is bullshit. Oh it's cruel to cut whiskers but it's OK to ( for example) ride the young horse tests.

Supposed scientific tests with huge flaws and totally insignificant numbers, like showing horses photos are taken as conclusive, but significant findings, like the test where every young horse had fractured coffin ones is ignored. Why? Because no significant change has to occur to stop cutting whiskers or say riders need to smile and people can pat themselves on the back saying they are being welfare conscious.

I think Carl Hester and Charlotte do actually care about welfare in that the turn out, hack, and in general do by reputation give their horses a real life.

Is it abit like patting yourself on the back because you don't shave your horses whiskers and smile while you throw the saddle on a six year old to develop the "show trot'.

As for behind the vertical that is another of those fake welfare bullshit stories. Why. It's fairly obvious. Anyone who has. Anyone around horses for more than a minute knows that it's a very comfortable for most horses to go behind the vertical and much harder for a horse to maintain a raised poll. It's so easy to see, btv, but what isn't seen is what isn't obvious is gait enhancing shoes and training. Hollowed backs and hocks out behind. These things are a lot more damaging long term than a compressed neck. And I know I'm being very opinionated on this but I actually used to be a poll high nose out advocate and I admit I have to apologise to my horses for being so damned inconsiderate

[blob]

CH and CD are not the only international riders who turn out their horses and hack out, etc. It feels strange to me that they are so often singularly singled out as doing something so exceptional.

[exvet]

So many of the 'disappointments' I've read about have more to do with opinions of how to exact a discipline and not what is the conventional wisdom of animal welfare. The Five Freedoms are globally recognized as the gold standard in animal welfare, encompassing both the mental and physical well-being of animals; they include: freedom from hunger and thirst; freedom from discomfort; freedom from pain, injury, and disease; freedom to express normal and natural behavior; and freedom from fear and distress. There is little scientific evidence to compel those in power to veer from the current path of modern dressage, despite Hiliary Clayton et al. Until the FEI, USEF, USDF et al are not only held accountable for rewarding the practices we're disgusted with but prevented from promoting the same, this is all the grumblings of individuals (myself included) who will never be taken seriously...................money is power, not knowledge in such cases................unfortunately unbiased retrospective studies are too few and the time to conduct such, cost the welfare of many animals to be statistically significant.........and by then, what?

AQHA FINALLY, after 22 years, saw their transgressions regarding HYPP and such impacting their reputation but in the end they continued to be and still are a money-making machine who has been able to mold themselves to take advantage of new trends and really answers to no one. I see FEI and USEF so much of the same.

[Chisamba]

Because huge numbers of horse facilities do not even have turn out. Many of the older places only have tie stalls. And this includes a huge number of American show horses not only dressage. Have you ever seen a single race track anywhere in the world with turn out pens? Most of these places are not even designed to allow for hacking and grazing nsvermind free turnout. I live in a rural area and hacking along the road is at times treacherous. It's just not done often enough for people to have learned to accept it. I would say there are thirty small horse properties near my place. Small. I never see anyone hacking out.

[Flight]

Banning cutting whiskers is a start right? The other stuff I'm referring to is the dutch comps inspecting and eliminating mouth lesions and spur marks. Yes, obvious stuff but a start. It's also why I say it's embarrassing - riders actually think it's ok to do this to their horses?? Riding with a compressed neck goes hand in hand with hollowed backs and hocks out behind. Riding a horse out to the contact with an open gullet is harder for them. But that's why the development should be gradual, not racing to get to GP.

[exvet]

Because huge numbers of horse facilities do not even have turn out. Many of the older places only have tie stalls. And this includes a huge number of American show horses not only dressage. Have you ever seen a single race track anywhere in the world with turn out pens? Most of these places are not even designed to allow for hacking and grazing nsvermind free turnout. I live in a rural area and hacking along the road is at times treacherous. It's just not done often enough for people to have learned to accept it. I would say there are thirty small horse properties near my place. Small. I never see anyone hacking out.

I live in the mecca of small horse properties (though there are plenty of large ones too) the option for 'real' turnout, meaning large rolling pastures are very, very few. My guys live in my arena, it subs as both. It is 300 x 105 feet. It gives them enough room to run and kick up their heels but it's flat. I am very fortunate to live in an area with a safe trail system that has easy access; but many here don't. Still, I know many places, like the race tracks I frequented have walkers - both mechanical and human that give the horse's exercise. Many who are stalled much of the time are actually in pens that exceed most conventional stall sizes - pens are often 12 x 24 or mine at my other property are 12 x 75 feet. Those who try to see to the mental and physical welfare of the horse in these situations use walkers, haul out to trail ride, ride at least once or sometimes twice daily in order to see to their overall fitness. I think of turnout as an ideal but in those situations where you do not have it, one must find other ways to keep a horse's body and mind engaged. There definitely are many paths to Rome.

While I think there have been some small gains in improving animal welfare across the globe, there is still a long way to go and education alone isn't going to be enough.

[Tanga]

Thank you all for writing. I just can't believe people defended this BS and attacked me for it. Even the person I had a nice discussion with who AGREED you can "start" doing the GP work at 8 and it takes years to develop it, went back to the mantra that she sees nothing wrong with riding an 8 year old at GP. She has a picture of her on a clearly expensive horse and lives in Wellington.

I keep having various conversations about this, and so much of it seems people are not taught basic horsemanship anymore. I was helping someone at the barn (who rides with the big trainer who is a 4 star event rider) with a new horse she had learn to stand at the mounting block and walk and relax. She was tight and holding the horse no matter what. I had to explain how to get off the block, move the horse in circles, and then ask the horse to whoa at the block. On the third try, the horse stood obediently. I had to explain to her to get the horse to stretch at the walk, she had to ask with one rein to give a little, and then give back. Right away the horse relaxed, dropped her head, walked quietly, and was licking and chewing with light foam at the walk. In another conversation with someone who trains with him, we were talking about all of the horses at the barn with injuries and pulled from events for not being conditioned. I ride the trails every day as warm up and trot and gallop. Literally no one there, and they are all pretty hard core eventers, does anything but walk the trails. The trainer never explained how to condition the horses at all. And this goes on and on about everything, from shoes, to being in stalls, and everything else. People just do what other people do and don't understand and aren't taught and don't question.

And Chisamba, someone at the barn mentioned the other day they still have bunch of horses in tie stalls on the east coast. I didn't know anyone did that anymore. When I got my first horse in 1981, the only option I had for awhile was a tie stall, but they got walked out to "turn out" (about a 14 ' square paddock) all day.

And, blob, I agree it's rather stunning CD and CH are singled out for being so good to their horses. I know many do the same. Apparently Anky is horrible for rolkur, but her horses even in competition had pasture turn out a lot of the time and were trail hacked, and as far as I know, lived into their late 20's and 30's.

Again, thanks for the discussion. My sponsor (leasor. That's what we call them here) said if I liked being in arguments. Sometimes I like discussions, which uneducated people tend to call arguments, but I have been posting this stuff for a long time and have never been attacked for it, let alone without others chiming in with, of course this is BS. I hope in out own little way we keep putting the truth out there in front of everyone's face and daring them to say why it's wrong with facts, and maybe we can be part of a change for good, in so many things.

[Chisamba]

Where I grew up the small field was five acres. The bull pen that doubled as the riding arena was three acres. Where I live now I have eight acres. It's so different

[Tanga]

Interesting, and scary. I always share the expert's, Deb Bennett, Ranger study on bone growth and when we should be starting and pushing horses to back up my comments about this. I was going to share it today on a link on reddit where someone mentioned starting a 2 year old for dressage, and it's gone. It says the page no longer exists. You can still find a lot of pages referring to it, but not the actual study, which comes up as a pdf.

Considering I challenged the top of the top with these facts, this seems a really bad thing. Like maybe the bigwigs are going after her and she took it down?

[StraightForward]

It is reproduced here: https://www.womenandhorses.com/newslett ... nuary.html

Similar: https://equineink.com/2019/08/10/the-st ... velopment/

[Ponichiwa]

I still see her study (about 2/3 down the page):
https://www.equinestudies.org/archive-downloads

[Tanga]

Thanks for those. Maybe it was just archived or something, but what an odd coincidence. I found lots of places with it partially referred to, but your link, Ponichiwa, has the full thing. Weird nonne of that came up on my searches.