Strategies for developing medium and extended trot

[khall]

OK, several of us are in the medium trot trenches and I am curious what your strategies are for developing a good medium trot and eventually extended trot. Like I said on the goals thread, I have had previous horses that either were blessed with good to great mediums and extensions. My OTTB had incredibly easy true extensions that would suck you down into him and feel like an airplane taking off. So he has always been my horse to measure by. My big guy's dam Gallie has decent mediums, but not nearly as powerful as my TB did. My big guy would rather not! Just now am I starting to feel the energy and power that I need to develop the mediums. I know with developing good collection you should get good extensions and that I feel is what I am starting to get now, but it is still not the open the door and let it out type of feel like my TB was.

I know exvet has been down this route with her pony now showing PSG and I am sure she can give some insights. Anyone else want to share their strategies?

[Dresseur]

Khalil, can you elaborate more on what you feel is not quite there? Is it that he isn't punching out through the shoulder? Is his hind end not "quick" enough or not staying up under? Is it the tempo? It will help with what insights/exercises to suggest.

[Chisamba]

I have had good experiences working on building the mediums on a large circle. Spiralling in to collection and even half steps on the ten m circle, then spiralling out into a longer neck nose slightly ahead of vertical, on an circle as big as your arena will allow in medium,. I like doing it on the circle because there is no beginning and no end. I will continue in transitions in the trot. If the horse breaks gait when asking for forward, I will immediately half pass in with forward and when it regains it's trot, I will reward it by allowing medium on the spiral out as a reward

[khall]

Dresseur, yes it is the shoulders and wanting to feel more power surge from behind. I know he has them in there, I have seen them in the field and on lunge line when he gets spooked by something (I just do not want to be on the big beast while he gets spooked!). Exvet and I had discussions on UDBB about training the mediums, one issue she and I both faced was the too low in the neck, needed up from the base. She worked on that with various methods and that is where I have gone as well. Teaching him new bearing with high neck/poll. Keeping that neck up and out seems to really help him, now to build the power so he can push out and through more. He is pretty light to the activating/forward aid, but does not easily find that extra gear for the mediums.

Chisamba, oh that is a good exercise!! I will give it a go for sure. I do lots of lateral work on the circle, even to the point of HI spiral in, and SI spiral out. Finally now he can maintain his energy on the smaller circles as he has gotten stronger. Was not always easy for my big moose of a horse being the energy conservationist he is!

[Ponichiwa]

Some horses have to be shown that they can get their shoulders out of the way of the extended reach from the hind end. I like starting a diagonal, developing a lengthening, and taking those big lengthened strides down a leg yield after X. So long as the tempo stays consistent, you can keep adding more length to the stride even as you go sideways. In fact, the sideways element sometimes is a lightbulb moment: "Oh! I can actually take those big steps without stepping on my heels!" Does not always work for every horse but can work for some.

Nose-to-wall leg yield can also do something similar. Use the whole arena and off you go. As soon as you feel them shift into a higher gear and use their whole backs, you can go straight for a few steps (maintaining that trot), and then big reward and give them a break.

Another one I like, for the horse that has a tendency to rush past the connection whenever you put your leg on:
K-V (first 2 letters) Shoulder in
V-R (short diagonal) Medium steps
R-M (last 2 letters) Shoulder in
M-C-H Medium steps
Repeat
This keeps the number of medium steps you're asking for low, while using the SI to keep loading the hind end for more power. Cautionary: if your trot (or canter, you decide) is less powerful after the SI, your SI is not doing what you need it to do. Check straightness and/or connection before proceeding.

For a horse that gets low in the chest/base of the neck, I'd stick to very few steps. Downshift into something you and the horse finds easy before the horse rolls over the shoulder and down the hill. Repeat a lot, but not so much that you fry the brain. This kind of horse can also benefit from half steps, and every now and then leave the half steps in a medium trot. Again, short bursts until they have enough power to hold for longer.

I wrote a novel. Whoops.

[demi]

... Again, short bursts until they have enough power to hold for longer...

This reminded me of the importance of power. I'm not even in medium/ extended trot ballpark at the moment, but am working to refine my riding. In thinking about developing my skills, I have been reading books and looking at old notes and found this note about power that I had taken from the Kalman deJurenak video. First, I'll repeat what he said about the seat because I need to work on that before I can expect to begin to develop power in my horse.

deJurenak says: "Always, and over, and over again, sit ABSOLUTELY (I use bold and caps where he stressed the word with his voice on the video) still, in the middle of the horse. And ALWAYS swinging in the rhythm, together with the horse, with a COMPLETELY independent hand on the front of the saddle. (Imagine a strong, clear, well annunciated European accent!)

The STILL lower legs; the EFFECTIVE, active, driving lower legs, WITHOUT disturbing the horse, produce harmony."

Then later in the tape he says this:

"The development of driving power is increasingly reinforce by means of transitions within a pace, eg: speeding up at a trot or canter. The ensuing speed reduction, while maintaining the driving influence of the back and leg aides, has an increasing effect on the horse's submissiveness."

I just wanted to add this to the discussion because while on the one hand it seems obvious and well known, on the other hand it needs to be done correctly and thoughtfully to achieve quality results.

[Flight]

My 2 horses are so opposite each other.
The big young one loves lengthened trot, and needs no encouragement, but easily tips on his forehand with these big swinging hind legs, so I have to keep half halting and only doing a few strides to keep him in balance.
The little one needs pushing, he's not so forward and not as willing to keep the bigger strides and will prefer to run.
This is a good topic with good exercises to try.

[musical comedy]

[. First, I'll repeat what he said about the seat because I need to work on that before I can expect to begin to develop power in my horse.

deJurenak says: "Always, and over, and over again, sit ABSOLUTELY (I use bold and caps where he stressed the word with his voice on the video) still, in the middle of the horse. And ALWAYS swinging in the rhythm, together with the horse, with a COMPLETELY independent hand on the front of the saddle. (Imagine a strong, clear, well annunciated European accent!)

The STILL lower legs; the EFFECTIVE, active, driving lower legs, WITHOUT disturbing the horse, produce harmony."

Am I the only one that finds this confusing? How can you have still lower legs that are active and driving? How can you sit 'absolutely' still and swing in the rhythm? It reminds me of a quote from D'Enrody's book where he stays that insisting a rider be 'still' before they have built the foundation to be still is going to result in stiffness. Frankly, I think this wanting to be still with the hands and still with the legs and still with the seat is what hampers riders from getting the big trots and canters.

Then later in the tape he says this:

"The development of driving power is increasingly reinforce by means of transitions within a pace, eg: speeding up at a trot or canter. The ensuing speed reduction, while maintaining the driving influence of the back and leg aides, has an increasing effect on the horse's submissiveness."

This is dressage 101. Energize and half halt.

[Sue B]

Funny Demi (and mc re quoting) should post that quote about stillness + swinging. I was playing with mediums last night on Rudy and noticed my right hip wasn't really swinging with his trot going to the right, and so he would rush instead of lengthen his stride. When I focused on really swinging those hips, more with mediums, even in the collected trot/si AND staying quiet in my upper body, I got much better mediums. Granted they weren't very long, but my goal was to transition back to collected before he could drop those withers. So, no, mc, stillness does not = stiffness or rigidity, stillness keeps you out of the horse's way.

[kande50]

deJurenak says: "Always, and over, and over again, sit ABSOLUTELY still, in the middle of the horse. And ALWAYS swinging in the rhythm, together with the horse

The STILL lower legs; the EFFECTIVE, active, driving lower legs, WITHOUT disturbing the horse, produce harmony."
.

So funny how he seems to contradict himself: "sit absolute still.... but swing together with the horse", and "still lower legs" then "active driving lower legs without disturbing the horse".

I'm sure he knows what he means...

[kande50]

Am I the only one that finds this confusing?

Ha! I posted my reply before I read yours.

Frankly, I think this wanting to be still with the hands and still with the legs and still with the seat is what hampers riders from getting the big trots and canters.

Which is at least partly because so many horses are so shut down from all the push-pulling.

[demi]

As Sue B says, stillness does not equal stiffness. If one is stiff, it isn't even possible to be still. So if one is trying to be still but they get stiff trying, maybe they need to stop and figure out what's causing the stiffness. Because we are all different, my stiffness may be caused by something completely different than someone else's. It may take a lot of experimenting to figure out what the problem is. Or it may be solved easily. What deJurenak says may seem contradictory but if one analyzes it and widens one's concept of "stillness", one can than refine one's skills.

MC, you quoted what deJurenak says about developing driving power and then said "this is dressage 101. energize and half halt." But what you are saying is not the same thing that he says. Simply energizing and half halting probably won't produce the kind of driving power that he is talking about. Are you equating "the ensuing speed reduction" with half halting?

[demi]

Maybe think of the saying "still waters run deep". This may bring up the question " how can still water run and be still at the same time?" It's figurative, not literal. Some things just can't be explained in a black and white way. Maybe that's why we can't learn to ride simply by reading the experts. We need to read and then ride, and then read and then ride some more...and enjoy the whole process!

[demi]

I'm waiting for an oil change on my car....so still thinking about stillness.

Here's a definition that works for me in this sense of riding:

Noun 1.
deep silence and calm; stillness.
"the still of the night"
synonyms: quietness, quiet, quietude, silence, stillness, hush, soundlessness;

[musical comedy]

MC, you quoted what deJurenak says about developing driving power and then said "this is dressage 101. energize and half halt." But what you are saying is not the same thing that he says. Simply energizing and half halting probably won't produce the kind of driving power that he is talking about. Are you equating "the ensuing speed reduction" with half halting?

I guess...dunno. How do you know that energizing and half halting won't product driving power? Actually, I'm not familiar with the term driving power. All I can say is that I do not have a problem getting enough power and I have not had a problem getting a medium or extended trot. Here's a clip of deJurenak's video focusing on the half halt.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6vjT5LxVF6c

Maybe that's why we can't learn to ride simply by reading the experts. We need to read and then ride, and then read and then ride some more...and enjoy the whole process!

Reading is ok, but I think we need to ride, a lot, under regular instruction until we get to a point where we won't screw up the horse riding alone. Until we are able to have a positive affect on the horse. It shouldn't take years to get a medium trot.

[piedmontfields]

It shouldn't take years to get a medium trot.

While I sort of agree that with focused development one should see progress sooner than "years", I do think it very much depends on the horse/horse's conformation (as well of course on the rider and training). Have you ever had a horse that did not easily access a medium trot? It can be quite a different challenge if you are accustomed horses with a nice big trot built in LOL!

On another note, I would say what is helping the development of our medium gaits (trot and canter) right now is riding a very active school canter. That gives me a good sense of how much engagement I need to bring to the mediums.

[Chisamba]

In the same way you can sit completely soon over a six foot jump,. You are relaxed and still on the middle of the horse, and the horse moves. Naturally this moves you, but you are still l.

Can you sit still in a car? How can you be still, there car is moving sixty miles an hour, but you are still.

You hit a bump, the bump moves you, you n do not slingshot your hips to accommodate the bump.

I do not understand your confusion

[Ryeissa]

my trainer said don't move more than the saddle moves.

[kande50]

Still means still, so isn't IMO, a good way to describe what I think he's trying to describe. I think what he's trying to describe is balance: the rider stays balanced while the horse moves.

As far as the time frame to see progress, I think that depends entirely on what one perceives as progress. Some are way more interested in fluency, while others want to get more behaviors right away with the idea that they'll refine those behaviors (make them more fluent) as they progress.

[kande50]

I do think it very much depends on the horse/horse's conformation (as well of course on the rider and training). Have you ever had a horse that did not easily access a medium trot? It can be quite a different challenge if you are accustomed horses with a nice big trot built in LOL!

If a horse starts out with the capability for a big trot though, wouldn't he just be expected to develop a much bigger medium than a horse who starts out with a smaller trot?

IOW, I don't think it's any easier to get mediums on a bigger moving horse, but the mediums will just be bigger than those of the smaller moving horses once the horse learns to do them.

[galopp]

Horses have way more capability that most riders find the key to discovering. And what does a small trot mean? Lack of stride length, lack of freedom, or not being asked to thrust and stay balancing in the first place? The expression of the trotS are a result of energy and balance, but first comes collectability (folding of the hind leg joints) which give access to amplitude and then ground covering. (Does the saddle move? Not much if we watch a horse on a lunge.)

[demi]

[/b]

MC, you quoted what deJurenak says about developing driving power and then said "this is dressage 101. energize and half halt." But what you are saying is not the same thing that he says. Simply energizing and half halting probably won't produce the kind of driving power that he is talking about. Are you equating "the ensuing speed reduction" with half halting?

I guess...dunno. How do you know that energizing and half halting won't product driving power....

I'm just ust thinking this stuff through, MC. I didn't say energizing and half halting wouldn't produce driving power. I said it probably wouldn't produce the kind of driving power that he was talking about. The kind of driving power the horses in Kalman's vids show is different than the power I usually see in "dressage 101" horses. When Kalman talks about "the ensuing speed reduction", I wonder if he is referring to the natural slow down of a horse that is just developing mediums. If the rider asks for more power, the horse gives its momentarily but then naturally slows down after a few strides. Naturally. No half halt necessary.

So if, assuming one has a still enough seat, one just continues to "ride" the ensuing speed reduction, without giving a half halt how is the quality of the trot effected? Is that a different kind of driving power? One more like the kind I'm looking for?? I don't know for sure, but I want to explore it.

[Chisamba]

Improvement requires change. If you are perfectly happy with where you are, don't try anything new.

Stillness is a skill that takes effort. Can you have still hands while posting? How the heck do you do that? There horse is moving, you are moving, how the eff can your hands be still? Oh they can? It takes work? Perhaps a little effort? But most people understand that it is possible. You keep your hands in the same place relative to the motion of the horse. Okay now,. Open your mind just far enough to apply that thought to your seat.

[musical comedy]

The kind of driving power the horses in Kalman's vids show is different than the power I usually see in "dressage 101" horses. When Kalman talks about "the ensuing speed reduction", I wonder if he is referring to the natural slow down of a horse that is just developing mediums. If the rider asks for more power, the horse gives its momentarily but then naturally slows down after a few strides. Naturally. No half halt necessary.

That makes no sense to me, but if it does to you, that's all that counts. I wouldn't want a horse to slow down on his own. If that happens, the rider has fallen asleep at the wheel or has asked too much of the horse. In the video I linked, the first horse looks young/green but the second horse is ridden the way I see good trainers ride today. He shows good connection and half halts go through. Neither horse has the kind of energy I desire though, but they are both nice horses for that era.

So if, assuming one has a still enough seat, one just continues to "ride" the ensuing speed reduction, without giving a half halt how is the quality of the trot effected? Is that a different kind of driving power? One more like the kind I'm looking for?? I don't know for sure, but I want to explore it.

Well, I'm lost with the 'different kind of driving power'. It's over my head I guess. Do you discuss this with your trainer(s), and do they concur or understand it?

[Dresseur]

I have to agree with MC here.

I think that riders perceive a slow down because of the increased air time, but I want that tempo to stay exactly the same with the hind end continuing to drive up. If there is an actual slowing down, I don't think that's correct. Especially because when you "come back" to your collected trot, you do NOT slow down, you drive up further and half halt into increased elevation. That to me is the driving power that is needed - the hinds continue to drive up, but you either allow it into a medium, extension whatever, or you contain it and hold your collected trot. But half halts are necessary for the overall balance which allows room for the hinds to drive up. If the horse is on the forehand, the back stiffens and the hinds go out behind, and poof goes your ability to effect the hind end.

Regarding stillness. I think that you can take this literally or you can take it figuratively. I choose to take it figuratively, you are creating an illusion of quietness in the body - but you are working hard to maintain that outer stillness. It also applies to aids, no extraneous aids. Keep them small and precise. However, I personally believe that people should not be afraid of being stiff at first. When a young ballerina works at the barre at first - they are stiff. Through practice, the movements become supple. Riders need to "hold" position at first, through repetition, suppleness comes.

In terms of the medium and extended gaits for "limited" movers, I push the trot, a lot, until they take a step or two that kicks out of the shoulder, and I don't throttle it back too much on the short side - I'll actually use the short side as part of a 20 meter circle because the outside of the horse has to take a longer step - so you will often start getting your first strides that punch out through the shoulder there. Usually the sweet spot is just before they break into canter. Some seem to have to be shown that they can move in that manner.

[kande50]

Improvement requires change. If you are perfectly happy with where you are, don't try anything new.

Stillness is a skill that takes effort. Can you have still hands while posting? How the heck do you do that? There horse is moving, you are moving, how the eff can your hands be still? Oh they can? It takes work? Perhaps a little effort? But most people understand that it is possible. You keep your hands in the same place relative to the motion of the horse. Okay now,. Open your mind just far enough to apply that thought to your seat.

I think the hand or seat can be quieted to the point where they appear almost still, but as soon as they become still they're no longer following the movement, so can only be still for a moment before they need to follow again.

[khall]

I think I need to play with all of the above suggestions re medium trots. When it cools off that is! I know we are building collection and sit, half steps are there, he can even RB-canter either lead very smoothly. Now for him to just understand he can open up his shoulders and free them up and push from behind. My TB had a phenomenal engine with an incredible ability to open up his shoulders, but he was a light mobile airy mover, where my big guy is massively built, very strong and learning to be light but not his natural tendency. I had to teach him about keeping his hind legs under him by activating his hind legs where the TB just did. SI to extension and back to SI was literally by just a breath, he was such a light but powerful ride. Different horses so will need different techniques.

Mark had actually said that we needed to teach my guy Spanish walk to show him he can be freer with his shoulders, unfortunately Mark died before we could get to that tool and I have never taught Spanish Walk before. Sigh. My big guy is reactive to the whip with his front legs so I don't think it would be hard but I don't have a clue how to go about it.

[piedmontfields]

khall, here is another thought for the pile. Because my mare has had to be shown that it is actually possible to free to shoulders, I try to associate this movement from her with a somewhat different position for me. To extend the trot, I put my legs quite far forward (and will even tap her on the shoulders with my toes to remind her of what we are doing). To come back, I bring my legs back under me or even slightly farther back to return to collected trot. The clear position change seems to help her know what we're doing!

I suspect there is actually overlap between this tap the shoulder aid and Spanish walk aids. However, I have not taught her Spanish walk!

[leheath8]

If the horse is at least somewhat reactive, Spanish Walk isn't too difficult to teach. It is especially easy if you have a horse that generally uses its front feet (i.e. paws), but those types can/will also "use it against you"! Basically, in halt, in hand, you tap the leg until they lift it - you may need to experiment where the best place to tap is to get the right reaction. Start with just one leg (whichever seems easier for them). You want to then start looking for, and rewarding, the more forward leg movement rather than just up/down (more like a paw than a stomp!). Then you ask while walking (in hand), starting with just the one leg closest to you. I have had one horse find it easier on a straight line, while another found it easier on a circle. Then you continue to build in hand until you can get at least a step or two with each leg (both cued from the same side, if you can) where they continue to walk in good rhythm. I find lifting the rein or lead (whichever you are using) can help encourage the forward elevation of the leg. You want to move the whip tap as high up as you can to ease the transition to asking from the saddle. As with anything, start by rewarding the smallest try, then withhold the reward until they offer more in the direction you want them to (initially, just lifting the leg is immediately rewarded, then you only reward if it is a little forward, them more forward, then more elevation, etc.). Then you start asking for the same thing from the saddle (initially at halt, then walking. I use a tap on the shoulder (initially with the whip) and a lift of the same rein. Eventually, I transition to using my toe on the shoulder/elbow (depends on your's and the horse's conformation) and a lifted rein aid.

If the horse find it really difficult to figure out the reaching forward part, I know a way to encourage them, but it is a little trickier and requires at least two people.

[HafDressage]

I haven't read all of the posts, but this has been my challenge the last year as well. What I'm finding works the best for my haflinger is working on the mediums/extensions up hills. I then intermix some arena work where I strong half-halt, then ask for a couple of strides, then back, then out. I'm now starting to feel his shoulders come out in front of me all the time, so it is starting to translate to the flat.

So, we still have lots of knee action, but the hills seem to have made a tremendous difference in both engagement and shoulder freedom.

[demi]

The kind of driving power the horses in Kalman's vids show is different than the power I usually see in "dressage 101" horses. When Kalman talks about "the ensuing speed reduction", I wonder if he is referring to the natural slow down of a horse that is just developing mediums. If the rider asks for more power, the horse gives its momentarily but then naturally slows down after a few strides. Naturally. No half halt necessary.

That makes no sense to me, but if it does to you, that's all that counts. I wouldn't want a horse to slow down on his own. If that happens, the rider has fallen asleep at the wheel or has asked too much of the horse. In the video I linked, the first horse looks young/green but the second horse is ridden the way I see good trainers ride today. He shows good connection and half halts go through. Neither horse has the kind of energy I desire though, but they are both nice horses for that era.

So if, assuming one has a still enough seat, one just continues to "ride" the ensuing speed reduction, without giving a half halt how is the quality of the trot effected? Is that a different kind of driving power? One more like the kind I'm looking for?? I don't know for sure, but I want to explore it.

Well, I'm lost with the 'different kind of driving power'. It's over my head I guess. Do you discuss this with your trainer(s), and do they concur or understand it?

I agree MC, that I wouldn't want a horse to slow down on his own, but in the beginning, when just learning medium and extensions, the horse isn't strong enough to maintain it and naturally slows down. So what I am wondering is, with a more sensitive seat, is it possible to effect the motion when the slow down occurs, by not actually half halting but by simply "maintaining the driving influence of back and leg aides" (as deJurenak puts it)? The seat would have to be really sensitive to be able to pick up the changing energy and to continue to use the back and leg aides in a harmonious way and not drive in a way that becomes unharmonius.

By "different kind of driving power" all I mean is something different than the way I am currently thinking about driving power. To use an over used phrase here, I'm trying to "think outside the box".

I don't have a trainer at the moment so no I don't discuss it with anyone. But this particular discussion group is in someways better than a trainer.

[Dresseur]

A couple things based on your post Demi...

Re strength... I find that people push the lengthenings too hard for too long of a distance at first. At first, someone watching may not even see a discernible difference, but what the rider feels in the body and the back of the horse is hugely important. In addition to strength, suppleness etc., you are training reactions. If you ask, the horse should give more. At first, it will be a glimmer, and over time, it will get stronger and more expressive. So, no, you don't want the horse breaking apart in the body because it doesn't have the strength. Aim for the reaction to your aids and ask for less, over less of a distance.

Re feeling the slowing down - yes, you can feel it. Usually, it corresponds with the back sagging a bit because if the horse is physically slowing, the hinds have stopped pulsing up. When the feeling is right, the horse feels as though it's coming up in the withers and the back is strong, like a suspension bridge. All through this, the driving influence of the back (and legs if necessary) is maintained, but IMO, you NEED the hh to prevent the whole horse from spreading out and breaking apart in the body. Make the horse light in the withers, not in the mouth - that comes from behind.

If this makes sense, I am holding the most tone in my body in the extended trot because I am using my back with forward intent. A visual is standing between two halves of a sliding barn door with your sternum and crotch against the one half of the door. The other half will be at your back. If you push crotch and sternum together, as one unit, against the door - it will move forward on it's track, and the door half behind you will not move. If you separate the pieces of your body, you will shove the front door half forward with your crotch, and the other back backwards with your shoulders... or vice versa. If you think about the door at your back as the horse's hindquarters, you can see how shoving the hip alone will cancel out the forward intent and work to drop the back down. That's why the core and back are so important - to unite the body of the rider, so that it can clearly influence the body of the horse.

[demi]

A couple things based on your post Demi...

Re strength... I find that people push the lengthenings too hard for too long of a distance at first. At first, someone watching may not even see a discernible difference, but what the rider feels in the body and the back of the horse is hugely important. In addition to strength, suppleness etc., you are training reactions. If you ask, the horse should give more. At first, it will be a glimmer, and over time, it will get stronger and more expressive. So, no, you don't want the horse breaking apart in the body because it doesn't have the strength. Aim for the reaction to your aids and ask for less, over less of a distance.

Re feeling the slowing down - yes, you can feel it. Usually, it corresponds with the back sagging a bit because if the horse is physically slowing, the hinds have stopped pulsing up. When the feeling is right, the horse feels as though it's coming up in the withers and the back is strong, like a suspension bridge. All through this, the driving influence of the back (and legs if necessary) is maintained, but IMO, you NEED the hh to prevent the whole horse from spreading out and breaking apart in the body. Make the horse light in the withers, not in the mouth - that comes from behind.

If this makes sense, I am holding the most tone in my body in the extended trot because I am using my back with forward intent. A visual is standing between two halves of a sliding barn door with your sternum and crotch against the one half of the door. The other half will be at your back. If you push crotch and sternum together, as one unit, against the door - it will move forward on it's track, and the door half behind you will not move. If you separate the pieces of your body, you will shove the front door half forward with your crotch, and the other back backwards with your shoulders... or vice versa. If you think about the door at your back as the horse's hindquarters, you can see how shoving the hip alone will cancel out the forward intent and work to drop the back down. That's why the core and back are so important - to unite the body of the rider, so that it can clearly influence the body of the horse.

I put the parts of your post in bold that I really liked. Good stuff, Dresseur! Thanks.

The only thing I would add is that I am still thinking about the hh. Yes, a hh to prevent the horse from "breaking apart", but still I wonder about refining the driving aides enough so that I drive enough to cause the lengthening, but let up just enough and at just the right moment to keep the horse from "breaking apart" but let him know that I am still driving...Just thinking (dreaming maybe).

[Dresseur]

Hmmm, I had to think on this awhile to work through what I do. I don't continue to ramp up and actively drive throughout the whole lengthening (or whatever level the horse is working to). So, I use my back, get the response and hold tone, I definitely do not go loose or get soft. That tells the horse to keep up the effort. I'm ready just in case the horse does start tipping onto the forehand or getting lazy behind, then I'll ask for more. The hh is always needed (how many and how much is personal to the horse and rider team), to continue to rebalance- in that way, you are making room for the hind to push the shoulders up and out of the way. And again, at the end of the lengthening, I drive a bit more, and hh, hh, hh to amplify the stride, not bring it back or slow it down for the collected trot.

[Chisamba]

I am not afraid to let the horse run a little in the trot, so long as they are lengthening with power, and not getting quick and choppy as they go.

I know the goal is to maintain tempo, but getting a little fast at first some times let's the horse know it has to use is hind end.

I do like using lateral work to then recreate the same power with more carriage behind and

I see a lot of upper level horses that are kept uphill
Who are very flashy in front leg action and trail behind. . Lengthening preceeds medium which preceeds extended gaits, longer and slightly lower wirth nose ahead teaches the horse to be powerful and in diagonal parity which it then develops info more uphill and balanced.

This is a pic of Rosie, she could" road trot" at high speed with a huge stride, but was very difficult to get to extended trot with uphill balance. As you can see she would curl at the front of the neck. This pic, by the way, proves that a horse can in fact extend it's stride beyond where is nose points.
Somewhere at home i have a pic of her downhill and flying. I shack try and find it to show you that one did indeed eventually lead to the other.

[kande50]

I see a lot of upper level horses that are kept uphill
Who are very flashy in front leg action and trail behind.

Is it possible that the body of the horse isn't actually uphill, but it's only actually the head and neck that's uphill? Because I don't think it's possible for a horse to trail behind and be uphill (as in lift their withers lighten their forehand uphill)?

Was there ever any question that horses could extend their stride past where their nose points? I thought the issue was that their hooves have to land where their nose points, so they fling them out past the nose and then pull them back to where the nose is pointing to land?

[Chisamba]

Okay let me rephrase, the hoof is on the ground ahead of where the nose is pointing.

Yes a horse can be" uphill with trailing legs, uphill in the literal sense that the shoulder is carried higher than the hind end . Trailing hocks can be bent to lower the hind end. As can stifles. The back is subsequently hollowed.

You can define uphill or anything for that matter so that you are never wrong. Not worth discussion. If anyone else would like to get a smidgen of assistance from my comment, that's all good.

[Chisamba]

Driving horse showing wither, elbow and knee higher than croup, stifle and hock. I particularly chose a driving horse so you could see the back.
https://goo.gl/images/EysJlk

You can define it as not being uphill if you want.

[kande50]

Driving horse showing wither, elbow and knee higher than croup, stifle and hock. I particularly chose a driving horse so you could see the back.
https://goo.gl/images/EysJlk

You can define it as not being uphill if you want.

I think what you're saying is that uphill balance does not necessarily mean collected, but simply higher in front?

[Dresseur]

Horses can be anywhere on the continuum of uphill balance. My young man shows uphill balance, but he is not yet collected. But, many people mistake extravagant front ends for being uphill, when in fact, the horse is dropped in the back and not really connected, or carrying more weight behind.

So here, just beginning work on lengthenings, Miro shows an tendency towards an uphill balance- his hinds and back are pushing the withers up and out of the way. He has great reach in his shoulders, but you see that the diagonal pairs are staying the same in the angle of the cannon bones- which shows that he's powering up from behind, not just flinging those fancy front legs. The one quibble that I do have is that his hind is hitting first, but that will change as he gets stronger and his joints fold more as this comes out of a more collected state.

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[demi]

Very nice, Dresseur! I see changes in your position from the last set of photos. A direct line from elbow to bit in the latest pics looks more harmonious than the previously raised hands. I know you are just in the beginning phases with Miro, but WOW! You two look nice!