Progress Rates in Horse Training

[demi]

I was thinking about the fact that this BB doesn't have the amount of activity that UDBB used to have and while some of the reason is that BB's have slowed down in general and may be a dying breed, some of the slowness may simply have to do with the fact that training is a slow process. Added to that, most of us on this BB are amateurs and that slows us down even further. Also, our pro's on this BB seem to be the kind that don't force things with their horses just to push them through the system. NOT that ALL pro's force and push! but some certainly do. And also on this board, competition doesn't seem to be the main reason that we train. I definitely like the showing process and I want to show when my horse is ready, it just isn't my priority. I also very much like to hear the accounts of others on the board that show.

So with all that in mind!, what are some of your thoughts on the relative speed of training. There are lots of reasons that training can be very slow. I think about the fact that not all horses learn at the same rate. And some seem to not learn much at all. Some of that has to do with the trainer's experience, or lack thereof.

There is a very interesting book by Paul Belasik, "Nature, Nuture and Horses" that journals the training of four different dressage horses from birth through the first year of training. Besides having some beautiful pictures, it shows how differently horses can respond to training even when they have similar breeding and the same controlled environment. I would love to know how those horses are doing now as the book was first published in 2012. The horses would be 8 year old now.

[Dresseur]

Hi Demi! I can actually speak to those horses as I have been a student of theirs for about 10 years now and saw each of those horses as foals and have watched their training. They are actually 9 years old

Kara - the most opinionated of the group became a fantastic school master for them at the same time that she was progressing her training. She was actually the subject of a very heated thread on the UDBB where someone posted an early sales vid. Kara was also the most poorly conformed of the group - very downhill, the only Excel baby to be built like that. Kara made her successful 4th level and PSG debut this spring and was just sold to be a PSG schoolmaster for an older AA. I had the pleasure of riding Kara many times, and will miss her quite a bit!

Corsana, Excelsa and Escarpa were all sold after being solidly w/t/c with a strong grasp of lateral work. Elsa was nearly confirmed in her changes when she was sold. Corsana and Elsa went to ammy's, Escarpa went to a pro - he is competing 4th level successfully. I'm not sure what Elsa is doing right now, but Corsana is competing at 2nd level very successfully with her ammy owner and is an absolute gem.

What's really awesome has been watching the horses that stay in training with Andrea. Maya and Lana - not featured in the book, were sold, but (like Kara) stayed in training. Maya just turned 7 and has just this year made her successful PSG and I-1 debut - scoring in the 70's. Not bad for a PRE Lana, a year younger than Maya, is making her 4th level debut this week. Both are wonderful teachers to their ammy owner.

I believe that there are videos of most of them on FB or on the website.

[musical comedy]

So with all that in mind!, what are some of your thoughts on the relative speed of training. There are lots of reasons that training can be very slow. I think about the fact that not all horses learn at the same rate. And some seem to not learn much at all. Some of that has to do with the trainer's experience, or lack thereof.

I don't think training should be slow up until First Level. I mean, if the rider has reasonable experience riding, they ought to be able to get the horse going on the bit and bending well enough to do a First Level test in a year of regular work. I don't think that is quick at all, and I've done it a few times and I'm barely and average rider.

After that, when collection is started, that is where the difficulty comes in, especially if you aren't working regularly with a trainer or have a lot of experience bringing horses to collection.

As you say, all horses don't learn at the same rate, and a lot of that is because of their natural ability. The more natural balance they have the easier. The better their temperament the easier.

[Dresseur]

I will add to the above by saying that training goes much, much faster when you have a rider that is so clear in the aids and knows exactly what feel they are going for. Each horse there is treated as an individual, some horses take longer then others. But overall, most of their horses progress to first and even some second level movements fairly quickly. And, not all of those horses are ones that they bred. Andrea is training all types of horses, from grade ponies to friesians. It's worth noting that they don't use any supplements or any injections and, when Kara was vetted, she passed extensive xrays with flying colors, and she's the worst conformed of the bunch.

I said it in the thread where I was questioned about the speed at which I was training Miro, all of theirs start at 3 y/o, they view collection as a continuum. They work on straightness and bending and use the exercises as they are intended to straighten the horses - as the horses get stronger and more supple, they are asked to perform those exercises in more and more of a collected state. But they don't avoid exercises unless there is a mental or physical reason that the horse cannot or should not be asked for them.

[piedmontfields]

Wow, Dresseur, that is a cool update! I really enjoyed that book and will now re-read with your updates in mind.

I do think it is pretty awe inspiring what a talented horse and rider can do in a relatively short period of time (even just a year). I'm thinking of adult horses going from 2nd+ to PSG fairly easily when guided by a skillful trainer/rider.

I have been thinking that my own training progress is a bit sluggy lately. I know I would benefit from my more regular instruction that "jives" with how I learn and organize training. I do have very good eyes on the ground, which helps. However, I can still say that a year ago 2nd level movements seemed a bit hard and now they seem "routine" and 3rd level movements seem hard! So something is happening in my slow, slow world

[Dresseur]

The training trajectory that I've witnessed over the past several years (again - this is a generalization and not every horse follows this) is that they make progress very quickly from being backed to 2nd level. Then, the single changes get introduced. This can take a few months, this can take year. In the mean time, they are building strength and the level of collection increases. By the end of the 5 year old year, start of 6, most of their horses are 3rd level and can competently do a 3-3 test with good scores. Then, the horse continues to build strength, suppleness and increase collection. Working piri's begin... and at 7-8 - their horses are ready for PSG or even I-1 depending on the horse. Once the horse hits I-1, GP happens relatively quickly within another year or 2- depending on how big a bugaboo the 1's are. So, typically, by 9-10, the horses are ready to compete GP - obviously not with the expression and proficiency of a finished GP horse, but it's on it's way.

Where I see the biggest hang ups - changes and eventually tempis, and the piri's. Sometimes the piaffe or passage will be a hang up, but along the way, they start schooling half steps and by I-1, they start really schooling piaffe, passage tends to not be a huge deal. The other very neat thing is that the horses all seem relatively ordinary, and then one day, you come out and realize that along the way, the cadence and expression has been developed and the horse looks like a completely different horse, it's pretty amazing. And again, these are all breeds, all types of horses- not just the ones that they bred. Actually, to see the transformation, Maya's first show in 2013 is online, I believe it was 2nd level, can't remember what test... and then to see her I-1 tests now... it's pretty amazing.

[kande50]

As you say, all horses don't learn at the same rate, and a lot of that is because of their natural ability. The more natural balance they have the easier. The better their temperament the easier.

There's also more undetected lameness than I think we currently know, as I recently noticed that a pro with a talented WB seemed to be spending a lot of time at 1st level, and then saw a sale video in which the horse was being offered as a trail/first level horse due to soundness issues.

[Chisamba]

I have over the years worked for three separate breeding farms. My job, of course, was to start the youngsters and they were naturally all for sale.

Most of the time the most talented young horses would sell first, and I would be training the less talented, less correct, more problematic horses to the higher levels til they too were sold.

Heart and soundness aside, correct consistent training can fill in a lot of the gaps. I think the slightly slower maturing horses often end up with better foundations. The brilliant youngsters who skedaddle through all the preliminary work easily often have to catch up elsewhere.

A professional pair of horses that come to.mind are Legolas and Rosie, with Steffen Peter. Legolas was oft described as lacking talent fir the GP tour. He may not have been the most brilliant horse there, but we was in the olympic finals. Rosie, brilliant in her youth, is being slowed in her training development ( i have heard) to allow strength to catch up with her brilliance.

I think it also depends on goals. I have had youngsters showing training level 90 days after first wearing a saddle, and first level within their first six months of showing. The goal was to expose them, show them, sell them.

With a horse I wanted to develop for myself with the goal to make it through all the levels, I enjoy the journey more, take time to really strengthen foundations, and take about a year a level.

[Flight]

This is a great topic and thanks Dresseur for describing the horse ages and types of movements those horses are schooling. Very helpful!

[exvet]

I agree with Musical Comedy's take on it. Also like with most amateurs life happens and outside factors also put major brakes on dreams and plans. I hope to pick things up again here in the near future; but, I've learned not to predict and to take things one day at a time, though that has far more to do with my personal life than my riding. Unfortunately doing an average of 30 - 35 surgeries a day for so long took its toll; so, I had to leave a job I love because of physical deterioration and started another that I hope will allow me to preserve what I still have; but, only time will tell. I'm still riding and hope to show again, did so back in February; and though I'm still actively training and progressing the showing has definitely been put on the back burner.

[demi]

Yes, thanks Dresseur for the updates! I have a mare, Rocky (she has her own thread), that is the same age as Kara that I got as a three year old and she was/is also very opinionated. Also built downhill. I stopped riding her a few months after I got Emma but have just started her back again. She is not comfortable for me to ride because of her downhill build. She's only 14.2hh and has a very short back. I end up sitting in a chair seat on her and it drives me nuts. Because she has an opinion about everything and because I am an amateur working alone, I have taken her very slowly. We were just working on first level and some second which is not much for a 9 yr old, but I was happy I got that far.

Besides the mentioned issues with progress, weather and no covered arena really slowed down my progress here. Then, my age didn't help. I was 57 when I got Rocky and was extra careful not to put myself in physical danger. She is half Arabian and half extremely athletic Quarter horse (Colonel Freckles grandaughter). Her breeder kept her for 30 days and put her under saddle, but she was still very green.

I am looking forward to working with Rocky again. In rertrospect, I think that once she started to feel like a dressage horse at about 6 years old, I started putting too much pressure on her. Now that I have Emma, maybe I can ride Rocky with a more casual attitude.

[Moutaineer]

I'm usually the limiting factor in the training of the horses I have owned over the years.

I think now I've got a sort-of schoolmaster, I've finally reached the point of knowing what I don't know, which makes me wonder sometimes how I'm not dead yet--I've obviously owned some very forgiving horses.