I ned help with 'go'!

[martha sc]

After many starts and stops, from a sprained wrist, to severe summer heat , I am back working with my project horse .
He has gainedweight with me adding a KER ration balancer, a high fat breakfast to his poor quality pasture feeding in the evening, and a hay bag of good coastal, timothy mix several times a week, and has a bit of muscle from light lunging. He still needs some more pounds, With regular trimming, his contracted heels have opened up and he finally has a heel first landing !!! (Thanks to MG or Rooney for what she has taught me).
I am riding him in a well fitting western saddle and a myler barrel snaffle. At walk, he will now accept steady soft contact with my following hand, where before he would only raise his head if I took up the reins. He will keep that steady contact at trot and is thinking about stretching down, any day now. That is a big change for this formerly high headed ,hollow backed guy.
My current issue is his determination to be lazy at walk. Trot is much livlier. He is narrow and it is difficult for me to get my lower leg on him, If I don't watch myself, I fall into nagging, pumping, and having to take my thight off to reach him with my lower leg. He has spent most of his life as a head to tail trail horse so I have a lot of history to overcome.
What techniques do you fing helpful to get a horse reliably in front of your leg, or should I be satisfied with thumping and banging at this stage ? If I carry a stick he moves out better, but that is not the same as responding to my leg, is it ?

[piedmontfields]

The stick is back up to the leg. If you have no back up, nagging is tempting.

Another technique I may use (without a stick) is to apply a normal leg. If I am not happy with the response, I take both legs OFF the horse fully, then give a give a big double leg aid aka 5-10 pounder aid from both legs. Horsey should shoot forward. I don't care if it's trot or canter or gallop. Then we go back to the nice normal aid. If they blow it again, take the legs fully off, see if they react to that, if not, repeat with a big thump. Many somewhat phlegmatic horses will quickly learn that "legs off" means they are about to get a really big aid, so they get their butt in gear.

Caution: I would not use this technique on all horses, as some will launch themselves and others will internalize the thump aid and hold their breath/belly/back. For them, the whip is clearer as a back-up.

[martha sc]

Thank you for permission to get after him. That was my inclination but its good to hear it from someone more experienced, This is not a problem I have had with my own horses in the past ,so I wasn't sure,
He is not likely to have a fit, but will jump forward in a big trot, How long shoukd i let him trot before bringing him back to walk?.
He walks forward much better on the lunge. My own horses were all BIG walkers, somethin I encouraged , and other pokey guys i ride occasionally step out well after a few minutes of insistence on my part . So I dont think it is me. Coukd any of it be a strength issue ?

[piedmontfields]

It is completely fine for him to fully trot. You can even praise him for reacting to your aid. Then just ask nicely for a down transition to walk and carry on. Depending on the horse/rider this might be a few strides of trot or half a circle.

It really is worth teaching walk = marching walk from the get go so that you don't get into nag mode and he doesn't get into tune out mode.

It may be that he doesn't have as big of a natural walk as your own horses, but you're going after a good honest forward walk for *him*. You at least want under saddle what you have on the lunge!

[martha sc]

Everything I am asking him is new for him and he is 13.
That will be my mantra , "As good under saddle as on the lunge" , no excuses."
As an aside , ( and this will be another thread in the farrier forum) when I took him on as a project , he was doing what I've heard called "rope walking " on the rear, both feet tracking in to be on the same path. Wobbly hocks.
With frequent corrections to his unbalanced rear hooves , this has decreased, Would this have contributed to a weaker rear end and thus not so powerful a walk ?

[mari]

Also, remember that a big marching walk is hard for them to maintain because there isn't that much momentum to help them out, like in trot and canter. Mine has a great walk, but even he will struggle to maintain the same consistent level of energy for 15 minutes continuously. So I'll do a bit of the great walk work, and throw in a handful of quick w/t/w/t/w transitions to refresh him, or some h/rb/t, and then walk again.

[Chisamba]

I do not always use the same go enforcer. I will apply light leg tap for forward, if i do not get a response I might do a leg " thump" or a hard swish with the whip without touching, or an actual tap. If the horse trot or even canters i will approve but apply light leg and downward transition at the same time to achieve a forward walk.

Many people get a jog then slow walk, i keep aiding until i get the forward walk. I will usevseatbto maintain, but the moment the walk lags I tap . I do not return to the beginning, i already asked for forward, i should not have to ask again, horse needs to maintain.

[martha sc]

What I have been getting is a trot, then a return to the same slow walk. It's like ignore, ignore , ignore , then trot, then 3 strides of better walk, then ignore again.
Repeat repeat, repeat ?
Thanks for the advice, I have not had a poor walker before . Until he walks well, I don't think we will get much farther. Right ??

[Chisamba]

What I have been getting is a trot, then a return to the same slow walk. It's like ignore, ignore , ignore , then trot, then 3 strides of better trot , then ignore again.
Repeat repeat, repeat ?
Thanks for the advice, I have not had a poor walker before . Until he walks well, I don't think we will get much farther. Right ??

this is common, try to reward the behaviour you want, ie keep the forward asking through the downward transition. People have a hard time asking the horse for as much forward in a downward transition as they do in an upward one.

[piedmontfields]

Chisamba said it well--you may need to switch it up to wake him up. And keep the forward ask with the transition.

My mare responds often more to the "swish" sound of a whip (hold whip upright and wave quickly back and forth).

The rope walking past would certainly affect the quality of his walk.

[martha sc]

So in returning to walk after the jump into trot, I ride it , the downward transition to walk, like a half halt? Forward into the hand?
Piedmontfields, I had thought he might still be weak behind from the weird walking pattern. I will insist, but with breaks and not for too long at a time. I know making him sore will only work against me.

[martha sc]

Now I am thinking about this from his perspective. How does he know the difference between walk bigger and a request for a transition to trot ? I realize, with my own more responsive horses, ridden only by me, I never questioned it, we just did it. But for this guy, at this stage, how does he really know which I want? By the strength of the walk-trot aide? Or the repeating of the aid to get trot? He is making me realize how much I have taken for granted in my past.
I love a project.

[Chisamba]

So in returning to walk after the jump into trot, I ride it , the downward transition to walk, like a half halt? Forward into the hand?
Piedmontfields, I had thought he might still be weak behind from the weird walking pattern. I will insist, but with breaks and not for too long at a time. I know making him sore will only work against me.

the same amount of leg you ask for the trot with, but yes, giving the aids to walk, in my case, sinking into the seat, breathing out, and half halting. whatever you usually do, but with leg on actively

[kande50]

Now I am thinking about this from his perspective. How does he know the difference between walk bigger and a request for a transition to trot ?

It's hard to be aware of every single little nuance, but I think I give with my hands more when I want walk (to follow the movement of this mouth), and steady the contact more when I want trot. I think I also use a seat cue and both legs for trot, whereas I maintain the walk rhythm with my seat and use legs alternately when I want him to lengthen his walk.

For walk-halt it's almost as if I cue each leg separately for walk, so aid just enough to get him to step and then "capture" that step rhythm with all the aids to confirm walk. But for halt-trot I tend to aid a straight ahead and up sort of movement rather than a lateralized one, if that makes any sense.

But whatever I do, he's got it, and only misinterprets my cues if we've been working on something else and his brain is a little addled by it.

[Brydie]

Now I am thinking about this from his perspective. How does he know the difference between walk bigger and a request for a transition to trot ? I realize, with my own more responsive horses, ridden only by me, I never questioned it, we just did it. But for this guy, at this stage, how does he really know which I want? By the strength of the walk-trot aide? Or the repeating of the aid to get trot? He is making me realize how much I have taken for granted in my past.
I love a project.

Two legs for an upward transition, inside leg for more activity or a push with the seat. Jane Savoie has a great article about getting a horse hotter off the aids (where I got this from).

http://www.janesavoie.com/article_driving_aids.htm

[piedmontfields]

Your seat has a different shape for walk (think of your pelvic halves as two doors that swing) vs. trot (the two pelvic halves work more in unison with each other). That is a big clue for a horse.

[martha sc]

Thanks all, much good stuff to think about and incorporate here..
Kandi, do I remember correctly , you ride a mule?
I also have a catch ride on a neat, big molly. I would enjoy learning more about how mules are different than horses. This is my introduction, first ever Mule experience. I'm loving it, but there sure are some differences in how this girl thinks! .

[kande50]

Kandi, do I remember correctly , you ride a mule? I also have a catch ride on a neat, big molly. I would enjoy learning more about how mules are different than horses. This is my introduction, first ever Mule experience. I'm loving it, but there sure are some differences in how this girl thinks! .

Mules can be very horse-like or much more donkey-like. Our first 4 mules are all very brace-y, so upping the pressure to try to get them to comply isn't very effective. But while none of them are very physically sensitive, they're all timid and spooky. One of them is now 34 and he's still spooky, although after all these years it has become much easier to predict what his next move will be.

We recently got what I think is probably a TBX mule though, and she's much more physically similar to a horse. She actually yields to pressure instead of bracing against it, and is much more confident than any of our other mules. If I'd started out with this mule I never would have believed that mules were all that different from horses.

So I guess it all depends on the mule, as there's such a huge range of temperaments and characteristics.

[martha sc]

Thanks . I'm really enjoying this BIG girl. But the brain is different. Not spooky at all, but after a certain point, there is no pushing her further into something, she simply shuts down and goes away mentally. Really pleasant ride, though.

[AmityBee]

What techniques do you fing helpful to get a horse reliably in front of your leg, or should I be satisfied with thumping and banging at this stage ? If I carry a stick he moves out better, but that is not the same as responding to my leg, is it ?

I'm late to this party, but since "go" is and has been a big issue with my boy (not really a lazy horse but sometimes difficult to get going), here are some thoughts/ideas.

NO banging and thumping. You want a better, quicker reaction to less leg, not more. Using more leg will probably mess up your seat/ leg aids anyway. My guy is big barreled and putting on more leg results in a gripping thight, which he doesn't tolerate.

I think key to an effective use of the stick is to only use it when your horse can actually react to it, meaning only use the stick when the hind leg on the side of the stick is about to take off. A horse can not react to your stick the right way while the leg on the side of the stick is weight bearing.

Also, like someone already mentioned, use you stick in different ways. I like to sometimes just put it on my horses side like a leg aid, swishing sounds sometimes help too and pecise, consistent use of the stick is important! No nagging there either.

What *I* do to get a nice big stride at the walk from my pony:

First, realax my seat, inner thight and just feel the motion of my knees going "down" left and right with every stride. This is giving me the "when". I can only reach the hind leg on the "down" motion of my knees. The "down" feeling should also sort of feel like you leg is being sucked towards your horses belly.

Then I'll put on a little leg, If I do not get the reaction I want, I'll cluck once, no reaction, I will cluck with a light aid of the stick. No reaction I will cluck with more stick. I usually get the reaction I want by now. If not, my horse will get a good smack with the stick at the right moment that *is* going to give me the reaction I want. Praise! Ride what stride you get normally, no excess pushing/kicking/nagging! Rinse and repeat. Also, make sure you'll have a long enough stick to reach your horse just behind your leg with it. Don't smack the bum.

Like others said. A big forward walk is hard work. Dont forget to give the horse brakes at the halt.

[demi]

...

I think key to an effective use of the stick is to only use it when your horse can actually react to it, meaning only use the stick when the hind leg on the side of the stick is about to take off. A horse can not react to your stick the right way while the leg on the side of the stick is weight bearing.
....


First, realax my seat, inner thight and just feel the motion of my knees going "down" left and right with every stride. This is giving me the "when". I can only reach the hind leg on the "down" motion of my knees. The "down" feeling should also sort of feel like you leg is being sucked towards your horses belly.

...

I like this ^

Timing is so important but in order to get the timing right it's necessary to have the feel. And as Amity B points out, first we have to relax in order to be able to feel.