Need to talk about this: Sitting Trot Mechanics

[HafDressage]

So, I had my first lesson with a new trainer today and I liked the lesson quite a bit. In general everything seemed very classical and jived with my previous training and knowledge. We did a haunches in on a circle exercise to a flying change that really seemed to work particularly well for us, so I'm overall enthusiastic about this trainer. There was one point, however, that I think makes sense to me, but I haven't been taught this before. So, I'm curious to have a discussion about it.

So in general I sit the trot pretty decently. I fight some conformational problems like back arching, but overall sit pretty well and I've been riding dressage for a long time and have done some advanced training, and in general have taken a ton of lessons in my life. This trainer wanted me to swing(ish) each hip forwardish as the corresponding inside hind comes forward. So in that way I can follow the motion and also influence the hind leg to come further under. I don't know if side to side motion is exactly the right way to say this, but more of a dancing each hip forward and thinking of each hip as influencing each hind leg in turn. In the past, I've just focused on keeping a quiet seat and not interfering with the motion and/or weighting appropriate seat bones when necessary. So, this would be a shift in how I conceptualize sitting. As the trainer described this it made perfect sense and I did think my sitting improved over the course of the lesson - meaning I felt more with him instead of on top of him - but I've just not had it taught this way before. I'm sure I'm somewhat butchering this description, but hopefully someone out there knows what I'm trying to describe.

What say you? Would be curious to hear your thoughts or what your trainers teach.

[Gwen]

Interesting! I've felt that swing in my seat with the hind end before, but not recently, I am also generally trying to just sit quietly without wiggling my middle too much. I'll try to feel that in my ride tomorrow, see how the pony likes it. Working on mediums, and anything that helps me follow and stay with the movement in sitting that would be more than welcome to the party...

[Dresseur]

So, no, I don't subscribe to that method, nor does my coach. When I first started dressage, I had a teacher who taught that, I spent a long time unlearning it, but initially, it does make it easier to "sit", but you are less influential IMO. Basically, what I've been taught is that the pelvis stays neutral - and in the sitting trot, you don't advance one wing of the pelvis in front of the other as this causes twisting in the waist. What that does is causes a bit of a short circuit because you are not driving forward, now you are twisting a bit side to side. That is not saying that you can't bring a leg back to aid lateral movement, but when you twist the pelvis like that, if you keep your legs still and even, then you really twist in the waist/obliques... if you move the legs, you are just creating a lot of static. The hips, abs/core, obliques and back should all be driving forward as a unit. The more you press the lats down and firm your back, the more you are driving forward (backed up with leg if needed - think the feel of a trot to medium trot or extension). The other thing that keeping the hips even allows you to influence is the resonance of the step - so, if you are jumping on a trampoline, and you stay a bit stiff and connected in your core, you will keep jumping higher and higher. The second that you let go and get floppy or disconnected, you stop dead - that happens in the horse's gaits as well. If you use your body to encourage the sine wave as the horse moves through space, you can add brilliance to the trot. Think of a trot to passage transition. If you are advancing the pelvis one side at a time, you are twisting and if you are disconnecting you are losing "leverage" and clarity. You should be driving and creating the gait, not following.

[Chisamba]

I do not subscribe to anything side to side.

[HafDressage]

I think this article describes what the trainer was describing today.

"Most people try to think of sitting down into the horse. To be able to sit the trot properly you have to let the horse come up under each individual seat bone and move the hip up and forward. The other feels as if it goes down / back. It is this mis-timing of this individual up / down phase leads to bumping and jarring. When the horse reaches the top of his up phase you have to consciously think going back down with the saddle. Waiting for gravity will be too late! As I say you have toallow this to happen, but at the same time you have to match the forward motion of the horse from within yourself."

http://www.classicaldressage.co.uk/Sitt ... -trot.html

[Chisamba]

oh, its "classical".

I think different people learn different ways, verbal, sensorial and imitation being the most common. Verbal learning is one of the least effective ways to teach, as each person has a very individual response to words based on their previous experience with its use.

for example the trite saying " dressage requires the hands of a lady and the hips of a whore"
now, i have not ever actually seen a whore in action. Nor did i ever take whoring lessons, so my image of what the hips of a whore are like may be exceptionally different from some one else. while this is a specific example, it is true of all words. So it is when people describe something verbally that is different from what i think or feel, I have to remind myself that words are very fluid in meaning.

Sensorial learning is often the best, once you successfully feel something, it is easier to find that again. I think of it like finding a light switch in the dark. The first time you do so , its fumbling, knocking into furniture etc, but once you are familiar, its easier to repeat the motion. The problem with sensorial learning is you might have to kick a lot of furniture to find the light switch. So it helps to be , for example, on the horse or on the longe, and it might take many different verbal prompts to help you find the feeling. If this particular verbal prompt helped you then i cannot be critical of it.

Demonstration/ imitation. this can often be the most crucial form of learning. Look at riders you really like, i mean really look at them. Ingrid Klimke, or anyone you think is particularly effective. Slow the video, watch them moving away from the camera, look at their hips. watch your instructor, does she actually do what she is telling you to do, and if she does, does it improve the way the horse goes? i cannot remember who it was but there was a lovely slow mo of a woman riding a sitting trot, and going from collection to a stretch trot. explore you tube, find as much slow mo as you can of real people riding real horses, not that really ridiculous digital cgi that some times goes around

then its up to you to make up your own mind about what path you wish to follow in your quest for learning.

So, i repeat, no, i do not move my hips individually when i sit the trot, nor do i teach it, and in the very many opportunities i have had to ride with really good clinicians, ( and i have been lucky to do so) no really good clinician has ever told me to do that. Now i am not name dropping, but Ernst Bachinger, George Iwanowski, and more currently Andreas Hausberger and Christian Bachinger. So, yes, my influences are mostly from the SRS, ( although i was able to clinic with a few German Olympians) and i am not by any means a stylish rider, i guess the best thing that could be said about me is effective, however, i have been taught that the sitting trot the hips are neutral, unless you are weighting a particular seat bone for lateral work or bend.

My best advice is do not be too noisy ( by noise i mean excessive movement) Sit still, ( you actually have to move with the horse to sit still)

[Dresseur]

I'm going to take a moment and say that this is the funniest thing that I have read in a long time!

now, i have not ever actually seen a whore in action. Nor did i ever take whoring lessons, so my image of what the hips of a whore are like may be exceptionally different from some one else.

Excellent analogy, but I'm still laughing out loud!

Back to OP, alternating hips still leads to twisting. And any teacher that I've had that is traditional (not this new definition of classical) does not subscribe to alternating anything. Pelvis is neutral in the trot.

[piedmontfields]

HafD, I could see this instruction being helpful if you had a bit of tendency to keep both pelvic halves "still" and even a little locked as you sat. Sometimes we each need very different guidance, depending on our prior patterns.

[Gwen]

I agree piedmontfields, I suspect the movement the trainer is talking about is not so dramatic, and it can be helpful to think about and feel each hind leg coming under.

I think at the time I felt this "swing", which is maybe a bad descriptor, I was trying to figure out how to sit without gripping with my thighs. My instructor suggested I try to feel each hind leg alternating pushing my seat bone forward, and it helped me loosen my hips enough to follow without locking up against the movement - it felt more predictable and therefore less bumpy. It's not something I have to think about anymore, but as the mediums are getting more powerful I may revisit for the same reason, to remind myself not to grip or get behind the vertical.

HafD, if it helped, and you felt more effective and with the horse then I say go with it. Your description made sense to me, and didn't sound like the instructor was asking for a lot of twisting side to side.

[Josette]

Chisamba - EXCELLENT descriptions of learning.