Leg Yield on Circle

[kande50]

Sorry I strayed from the thread topic of leg yield on a circle. But it is necessary to ride a near perfect 20 m circle before you start the leg yield.

Agree that accurate lines matter in this exercise, because if the circle is off then the count is off. I also found that if we bulge out or cut off a quarter that messes up the count, and any slowing down or speeding up will wreck it.

A couple days ago, when I tried to start at C instead of A I found that I couldn't get an even count on the first circle. Part of the problem was that he wanted to head toward the gate, but then later I realized that the hay mow stuck out into the ring an extra 6 feet at C, and I was using E and B to lay out my circle, so I was making an oval. I wouldn't have thought that a measly 6 feet would have mattered, but I guess it did because my stride count came out a lot more even when I fixed that.

My counts on the circles in this clip probably aren't accurate, but the camera perspective is wonky too, because it's set up in the corner instead of the center.

That, and I can see that I didn't get close enough to the wall on one side, and did more than 3 strides of leg yield, so will work on fixing that next time, too. https://youtu.be/_KbIJp-fBGg

[kande50]

But the only way you can change the center point is to go down the wall to get to the side of the new circle, or yield out on a wider arc to get to the point on the centerline that's closer to C and start the circle there.

The circle is ridden yielding to the leg from the wall to the centerline, this is approximately 3 strides of leg yielding. The rest of the circle (3/4 of it) is ridden normally.

I get 5 strides between wall and center line on the circle, so to yield for three I'd need to start yielding one stride off the wall and stop yielding one stride from the center line. Is that a better way to do it than yielding for 5 strides, or in my case about 7 strides because we're making a bigger arc when we yield out, and stepping more sideways so not as far forward with each stride?

[galopp]

Most of the time you are getting 5, but when you have more the inside leg (esp going to the right hand) is just pushing without cessation rather than pulsing (think en-large rather than hold and push), and more problematically the inside leg is being pulled back and upward. You are never to step more sideways than forward. You simply do not have time for much more than three requests, maybe four, it is not the enlarging that is adding the strides, it is the lost of stride length in going too much sideways (i.e. if you were doing this straight ahead you would end up getting to the wall before the desired letter) mho

[kande50]

Most of the time you are getting 5, but when you have more the inside leg (esp going to the right hand) is just pushing without cessation rather than pulsing (think en-large rather than hold and push), and more problematically the inside leg is being pulled back and upward. You are never to step more sideways than forward. You simply do not have time for much more than three requests, maybe four, it is not the enlarging that is adding the strides, it is the lost of stride length in going too much sideways (i.e. if you were doing this straight ahead you would end up getting to the wall before the desired letter) mho

I am pulsing, but it's more like he comes against my leg each time his barrel swings back and forth rather than that I actively put my leg on and take it off. But yes, I could certainly work on being clearer with my leg aids.

The reason I bring my inside leg back is that I feel like his hindquarters are trailing and he needs to step over more with them, and of course, because I'm more likely to get a reaction when I use my leg further back than I am if I use it at the girth or just behind it. I can see how that could become a problem if I wanted to use my outside leg to move his hindquarters in, so need to work on that, too.

So next time I ride I'm going to go for 3 inside leg cues/circle, and with my inside leg closer to the girth.

[kande50]

Here is a video on youtube where they electronically put a perfect 20 m circle visual on the arena , and then videoed the rider from above. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uG14o0n0NTg

I wonder how they did that? I've put my camera in the rafters before, but can only get a very small part of the ring that way. They somehow got a steady overhead view of the entire 20 meters.

It did occur to me when I was going around that it would probably be a lot harder without the walls to provide visual cues for both of us, although I do remember doing circles outside with cones. But it didn't take long to wear a path and then I'm sure we both used that as a visual cue.

I had the same problem you did with guessing where my touch points were, and drew a line from A to C so that I'd at least have one visual cue for when I crossed the center line. But once the circles started moving down the arena I had no confidence in either the shape of my circle nor the number of strides. So the next step for me is to put some markers on the walls and then try to conform to them, which will likely be more difficult than just making a circle wherever I end up after the yield, but should help me learn how to stay on a particular line, and give me a better feel for what a 20 meter circle feels like.

Now if I could just think of a good way to videotape from directly above and get the whole circle in....

[Kathy Johnson]

The average is 6 strides per quarter in trot and canter. You can of course, vary this at will and your line makes a huge difference, if the horse falls in or out, even slightly.

my other comment about lateral work and circles slowing a horse down, I stand firm on. It's common sense really. Think about it. How many horses speed up on lateral work?

Right. If we think of it biomechanically with the stifle and as a mortar and pestle joint, then to push forward, the horse only has to work the joint in one direction, forward and back. In turn on the forehand, the horse only has to use move the bones in one direction, to the side and back. But in lateral work, the horse has to do both, pushing off of and twisting the joint. It takes strength and time for most horses to develop this range of motion in the joints. Therefore it's always wise to refresh the gaits coming out of lateral work and before beginning anew.

Kande, it's been awhile since I've seen you and Sting. I think you've done very well keeping him sound and happy in his work over the years. I didn't see any uneveness in his hind end in either direction (from a different post), so good job keeping him symmetrical.

I love the dancing steps he throws in when he accepts the outside rein and moves sideways on occasion. Although he is shorting his stride and covering less ground, those steps do have energy and he is, in those moments, ahead of the leg rather than behind it. I don't mind you sitting those few steps. To test this theory, when you hit the outside of the circle, begin posting and ask for a lengthened stride.

[kande50]

I don't mind you sitting those few steps. To test this theory, when you hit the outside of the circle, begin posting and ask for a lengthened stride.

Thanks, Kathy. I'm now trying to keep my focus on developing better responses to the go cues, so instead of stopping and rewarding the better efforts (which he tends to anticipate) I'm now cueing a more forward effort before I reward. So we're into behavior chains now.

We both understand clicker training well enough now that it doesn't take long for him to catch on to behavior chains (and patterns), so then it's just a matter of adding cues and then learning to differentiate between them.

So the positive reinforcement style of training we've been working on for quite a few years now is starting to look and feel more and more like what one would get from pressure and release training (because that's what I'm rewarding more now).

It's been, and continues to be a very fun project, and all the help from those who can see what should and shouldn't be rewarded has been invaluable to me. Thank you for all your contributions to the effort.