Regarding the canter

[Sue B]

A little background: The two horses I have now (Rudy and Tio) I started myself; both were literally only halter broke and semi broke to tie. Rudy was coming 6 when I bought him and was a stud until the fall of his 5th year, whereas Tio was coming 2 and gelded as a yearling when I bought him. I spent 4 mos doing ground work before finally sitting on Rudy and I waited until Tio was well into his 3rd year before riding him due to his crazy growth spurts. Tio's wonky growing and my crazy schedule has prevented me from doing a whole lot of riding until last fall and now this spring, but all along, I did lots of ground work on the lunge, in lines etc. Rudy is cruising at 2nd/3rd and Tio can probably score well at Intro.

So, here's what I have observed regarding the canter and other people's opinions. Watjen, in his book, wrote that you needn't worry about the canter until you can step into it from the walk, unless he offers it before. Others have stated that you MUST get the canter right away (within the first 12 rides or so) or the horse will never canter. Both my horses did not canter until they were well into their training. For instance, I started Rudy in July and did not canter until October and even then, it was hit-and-miss for another 6 months. Tio is now coming 6 and has only just now accomplished cantering--literally just in the last few weeks. Prior to that, he would attempt the transition but could/would not hold the canter for more than a stride or two. Because they are my horses and I have no time table for their training, I just went with the flow and focused more on allowing the canter when offered rather than demanding the canter. Last night, Tio did multiple trot-canter-trot transitions AND held the canter on a round 20m circle multiple times as well as cantered down the long side, all as if he'd been cantering all along. Rudy tended to invert a bit his first year of cantering (he had trouble balancing his huge stride) but as he grew stronger, it became the beautiful gait it is today.

Both horses showed a strong preference to step into the canter from a balanced trot and resisted any attempts to be rushed into it. Horses I broke in the past, were cantered early, these were cantered later, both wind up at the same place 2 years in except that, with these two anyways, I have had no issues with bucking and/or bolting in the canter. I also have had very little issue with straightness, cross cantering or any of the other stuff babies go through. Walk-canter was a piece of cake with Rudy and probably will be with Tio as well. A friend commented the other day that she wished she had waited with her horse instead of pushing him to canter early. She thinks it may have saved her from the multiple times she wound up on the ground those first couple of years. She's even thinking of backing off cantering with her current youngster.

While I am aware this is not an option for professionals or folks with a time table, I am rethinking this whole cantering thing and coming to the conclusion that it will come when the horse is ready. Btw, I am talking about arena work, not out on the trail where they are free to canter on if they wish. Comments?

[musical comedy]

So, here's what I have observed regarding the canter and other people's opinions. Watjen, in his book, wrote that you needn't worry about the canter until you can step into it from the walk, unless he offers it before. Others have stated that you MUST get the canter right away (within the first 12 rides or so) or the horse will never canter.

Like so many things with riding and horses, we have to decide which 'expert' we choose to follow. I consider various suggestions and decide for myself.

As usual, my opinion is based on my own experience. From the pros that I've read and watched, these people canter right from the start. Many of their first canters looked as good if not better than mine on my mature horse. I guess that's a combination of their excellent riding and the horse's excellent balance.

With my last few greenies, I chose not to canter until I could get the horse connected on the outside rein on the bit (not just talking about contact). I felt I needed to be able to do a nice circle at trot on the bit before asking for canter. If I can't control the horse properly at the trot on the circle, then how can I control the canter and keep it from getting real crooked?

That said, if a horse 'offered' the canter, I would allow it to go for several strides until going to trot. I wouldn't punish the canter. None of my lazy warmbloods tried to do that though.

As far as Watjen's thinking they should be able to step into it from the walk, I have mixed thoughts. Does he mean a good walk canter transition like in second level? Or does he mean the walk canter transition like you see in the hunter hacks? I think it's easier to get a more balanced transition from walk, but they need to be in front the aids and set up, which the typical young horse ridden by an AA usually isn't.

A little story from me. I had this young filly I bought as a weanling. I started her slowly myself, backed at age 3 and then left alone until age 4. At age 5, I still had not cantered her. I managed to get a few strides left lead, but no way could get the right. I had signed up for a clinic with this German clinician. I had hoped he'd pop on her and start the canter work as he always wanted to ride my older horse. Well, he was annoyed that I had a 5 year old that had not cantered and insisted I do it. It was awful. The left lead I was just careening around sliding off to the side from crookedness. The right lead, omg. This mare surprised me. Gave me the finger and went straight up. Scared me to death. Clinician is screaming, "galopp that mare forward now!" I couldn't touch her. Any leg or hand and she kept going up. She had never done anything like that prior. I don't recall if I ever got any canter that day on the right, but after that clinic, this mare did not want to canter. I struggled and persisted, spending lot of time in the air. Finally I was able to get a decent left and right lead. Sadly, after that, she met with a couple unfortunate incidents and crossed the bridge.

Because of this experience, I do not 'insist' that a horse does anything if it shows a lot of rebellion about it. Usually they have a good reason.

[kande50]

I did a lot of free lunging when my horse was too young to ride, so he could already canter easily on a circle before I ever got on.

The first time I cantered him under saddle I free lunged him at the canter a couple times around, got on, and dh stood in the middle while I gave the voice cue (kiss) for canter. He hesitated just slightly because the voice cue for canter had never come from the saddle before, and he'd never cantered with me on, but he's a good egg and was already comfortable with me up there, so he just cantered off and did several relaxed circles before I asked him to trot. There was nothing to it, and just a few days later I asked him to canter outside by myself and had the same experience. It was no big deal for him because he'd done it so much at liberty, knew the cues, and I didn't interfere so he just cantered the way he wanted to canter.

I went through a stage when I did a lot of cantering because I like to canter, but basically I agree with Watjen and the others who say that we can wait to canter if we want to, because the better their balance is in walk and trot, the easier it's going to be for them to find that same balance in canter.

[galopp]

Walter Zettl often spoke about the fact that the horses would go straight on, hack out, work in walk and trot for a year. If they cantered they were allowed, but it was not WTC in the first month (and not on the lunge). Imho wrote that you needn't worry about the canter until you can step into it from the walk, unless he offers it before. The thing is if one waits too long (rides mostly in trot--more for the rider than the horse), the horse does not spend enough time cantering at all (and that is a different issue imho). When they do canter (esp if they are very unexperienced) go up into light seat or two point and let them move on. Sustaining the canter is more an issue of balance and moving on (allowing bascule), and also of timing of the rider imho, preferable not on a circle (or at least a very large one). Most horses do use their necks as a counter balancing mechanism, they do raise their necks, and should be allowed to, most inverting is more a reaction to the hand not allowing the bascule imho. Certainly over tempo to 'push' the horse into canter will cause inverting. Regardless of this some horses do easily cross canter because they are so into there balance, but interestingly enough those horses are usually very easy to eventually to teach changes eventually. (And I used to demand cc before changes, but over time and with many horses, i have changed on that account. The earlier the better.) For sure connected to the outside rein, since it determines tempo and helps with balance. And interestingly enough the (old) germans wanted the horse 'on the bit' first (which is first level), and they also for the most part always tended to teach canter from walk, not running them from trot into canter. For me, I am not a fan of round penning since horses often counter flex and lean over the inside shoulder, not useful for balance or stride offs. mho

[musical comedy]

Walter Zettl often spoke about the fact that the horses would go straight on, hack out, work in walk and trot for a year. If they cantered they were allowed, but it was not WTC in the first month (and not on the lunge).....

Just snipped what I wanted to address, but I agreed with all of that post. Again, just my opinion, but I don't subscribe to cantering a young horse on a circle on the lunge. And I'm against round pens even for trot. I think they are too small. I truly cringe when I see those 2-3 year olds 'running' around in those deep sand round pens. The odg's I've read all recommend riding straight lines initial and like galopp says, canter in 2pt. I guess we are old school, because I don't see much of canter in 2pt by dressage folks. I think the hunter/jumper people probably still do it.

I did use voice training, like Kande though. Working alone you are kind of stuck. I'm the worst lunger in the world, but I managed to do enough ground work with voice so that that carried over to my under saddle work.

[Kyra's Mom]

I've done it both ways and think it should be individual to the horse.

The first two I started, I cantered the first ride and from then on. No drama. Both fairly well balanced and no issues whatsoever.

The next one I started was very unbalanced and I started her in late fall of her 3 yo year. Did about 6 weeks of walk-trot. I let her set for the winter and started over in the spring. I tried cantering her later in the summer. Some days OK, some days she would lose her balance, do a big kick out buck thing...and lose me in the process . I tabled canter until the next spring when I could get her to a trainer. I was riding defensively and could not stay out of her way. Literally, 2 weeks at the trainers and she was good to go with nary a canter problem after that. He could stay out of her way and she learned that canter was no big deal.

The last one I also waited on. I didn't start her until 4 but she was very immature physically. If I had a do-over, I would have waited 6 more months. I just waited with her until she felt strong enough and that took a few months. When we did start cantering...no problems.

Now mind you, I was in my 20's and 30's for the first two. The third one my 40's and the last one my 50's. Less adventurous as time goes by for sure but once we got to the canter...it was there.

Susan

[piedmontfields]

Sue, this is really a tangent off your topic but I'll toss it in there.

Have others noticed that there are many very low level riders (here, I'm not talking below PSG which is what I usually mean by a lower level rider; rather, I'm talking less than 2nd) who simply don't canter very much at all--even if their horse is decently balanced at the canter? This group usually has fear and skill challenges, but they also end up not cantering and hence not advancing---because each level requires more and more canter. And I've seen "instructor" after "instructor" reinforce this by not expecting much canter work.

So while I do agree that horses develop their canter differently and that it is worth getting the horse's balance decent before riding a canter in the arena, I also think that *riders* need to develop their canter skills and get on with it much more intently than some ever do.

This may be a low level phenomena that I simply see among "dressage enthusiasts" in my less-dressagey area now. I don't recall it in the past, but I was also around more skilled horse people.

[kande50]

This group usually has fear and skill challenges, but they also end up not cantering and hence not advancing-

Probably better if they don't canter much if they have fear or skill challenges, and instead continue to develop their confidence and skills at the walk and trot.

I think it's also important to separate those who really want to advance and have the resources to do so, from those who want to advance and don't have the resources (time, money, or athletic ability), from those who don't care if they advance, or advance at a snail's pace, as long as they can get on their horse and ride.

I think all of us tend to think that everyone else must have the same goals we do, so someone who really wants to move up the levels as quickly as possible can't believe that someone else really doesn't care about that (and vice versa).

I remember making the same assumptions when I was eager to progress, and couldn't understand why some of the other riders I knew made the seemingly counterproductive decisions that they did. But I eventually caught on that not everyone has exactly the same priorities that I do.

[piedmontfields]

Of course people have different goals and interests. However,wWhen I see people spend $$$$ on clinics and shows and talk about their dream of earning a Bronze, I kind of think they want to progress. Of course some people prefer clinics to actually doing the (boring? routine? day in day out) work in between.

[musical comedy]

I think it's also important to separate those who really want to advance and have the resources to do so, from those who want to advance and don't have the resources (time, money, or athletic ability), from those who don't care if they advance, or advance at a snail's pace, as long as they can get on their horse and ride.

That's a good way to differentiate between them and perhaps there are even more categories.

Not just with riding and horses, but with anything, it's really difficult for most people to understand the thinking, behavior, and decision making of others.

However,When I see people spend $$$$ on clinics and shows and talk about their dream of earning a Bronze, I kind of think they want to progress. Of course some people prefer clinics to actually doing the (boring? routine? day in day out) work in between.

Lots of different thinking about why on this. Some just have no clue about how difficult it is for some to get a bronze or even ride a good 1st level dressage test. Others have so much money that it doesn't matter if they waste it on clinic and shows not advancing their training. It's a social event for some wealthy women.

The not cantering (and it's probably due to fear) I just don't get at all. We probably all have some fear, but I can't figure out why people take up the sport of riding if they are extremely fearful of riding the basic gaits. One thing I see a lot is very novice AA's buying inappropriate horses due to wanting a young horse or an inexpensive horse. That takes them to place like Canter for an ottb. With green, spirited horses, canter can be scary.

[kande50]

I think when most first start dressage they don't have their first clue about what it takes to progress up through the levels, or even more importantly, what it takes to progress up through the levels while developing a horse who can actually collect.

I watched a friend go through it, and even though she's athletic and self disciplined she still spent a ton of money on her education.

[piedmontfields]

The not cantering (and it's probably due to fear) I just don't get at all. We probably all have some fear, but I can't figure out why people take up the sport of riding if they are extremely fearful of riding the basic gaits.

I know. Even my relatively novice DH loves cantering and is not afraid of a forward going horse. I think it's just back to riding education and people riding the wrong horses---hence very understandable fear. But it has got to be a bit frustrating for the horse to mostly *not* canter! It is such a relaxing gait for the horse and often an easier gait than trot (esp. for older horses).

[Ryeissa]

.

[Flight]

I'm finding that my trot work is better after cantering.

[Chisamba]

There is the saying that poor trot creates poor trot, but even poor canter improves the horse. I cannot recall who said it but it was a worthy ODG.

If you plan to show, even TL requires canter. If you never show, I guess it doesn't matter

[kande50]

I'm finding that my trot work is better after cantering.

Cantering used to improve my trot work in some ways (more forward), but doesn't anymore, because it doesn't (by itself) get him more forward, anymore. It's one of the reasons that I think that forward needs to come from training rather than from waking them up a bit, because training is forever, while novelty only works until it's no longer novel.

Not that I'd ever run out of ways to wake my horse up, but because using even very mild anxiety changes the quality of his gaits (by adding tension) I don't find it a particularly useful way to get more from him.

IOW, I think the odg's knew what they were talking about when they described dressage training as *calm* forward and straight.

[Imperini]

My trot work is definitely always better after the canter. I also always feel better body wise after a canter so I'm not sure if it's the motion of the canter that also loosens me up so I can ride the trot better but it seems to be the case.

One of the ladies at my barn cantered her young horse under saddle for the first time yesterday. He'd been going walk trot under saddle for at least a few months. She did a lot of ground work with him and for the first canter everyone was all smiles so that plan seemed to work for them.

[Ponichiwa]

The canter is the only gait where one hind leg is isolated and carrying all the weight during a portion of the stride. This can be extremely useful for muscle building and working on even-ness. You can do a lot of work in the trot, but canter is the gait where the can opener comes out and you can really get into working on straightness and engagement.

How much canter I look for in a ride depends on where the horse is in their understanding of the aids (i.e. can you steer? if no, maybe hold off on cantering). Generally once we're past the baby stage, I touch on the canter every ride unless we're taking an easy day and cruising around the property on a loose rein.

On a green or unbalanced horse, canter can be, uh... creative. Sometimes your job as the rider is to stay lightly out of the saddle and out of the way as they figure out that cantering under saddle isn't that bad, after all. Sometimes your job is to provide the external rhythm and bend that settles down their canter. Sometimes the horses that need the first type of ride one day need the second on another day.

[Sue B]

Totally agree, Ponochiwa. The difficulty with these kids is figuring out which one is going to work best THAT day. Lol.