Photos - Assessing riders and horses from them

[musical comedy]

This doesn't warrant a discussion, but I've been thinking about it for a while and decided to just put it down here. It may fall under the category of a vent. Don't read too much into it.

We all know that a photo is just a moment in time. That goes without saying. It's nice to share photos and I'm sure everyone likes looking at them. However, with the exception of the very top riders, they are almost always not an indication of how a horse goes in real time.

There is so much that can't be seen in a photo. Things like tempo and power. Lots of things I can't put into words. I can watch a video of every horses I've ridden and taped and find several really nice still shots when the rest of the ride was crap. On the other hand, I can watch a video of a really top pair and find some still shots of horrible moments in time.

I'm going to show you an example. The following is a photo of an inexpensive sale horse I went to try a couple decades ago. I blocked out my body because I was overweight at the time. I cant' stand looking at myself overweight. Anyway, I am not saying the pics shows a great moving mare, but it looks like a decent mover for a 4 figure horse. Well, let me tell you that this mare was an egg beater; a really crappy mover. So...that's all I wanted to say.

[Dresseur]

MC, this is something that I think about often as well. It is quite possible to cherry pick the best of the very best moments of a ride and of a rider's position and create an impression of that pair that is very favorable. Or, I can go through, and pick the not great moments and create a very negative impression. So, yes, photos are only a very small part of the story. Sometimes video backs up what is shown in the photos, and sometimes it sheds a very different light on the photos (positive or negative). And then you can alter pics - shift the ground lines to be level, downhill or uphill. For instance, the PK piaffe pic that everyone loves - it looks so uphill partially because the ground line is uphill...

PK.jpg (43.54 KiB) Viewed 14653 times

If you move the groundline to be level, it reveals a slightly different look.

PK2.jpg (123.88 KiB) Viewed 14653 times

(please note, I'm not saying that this is not an exemplary piaffe, but if you look at pictures, it's not as uphill as it appears to be)

That being said, there are things to tell about a photo - for instance, in the pic you posted, I'm not surprised that you said that horse was an egg beater based on the lack of reach through the shoulder and the overly active step behind. I'd assume there was a bit of a hocky movement there. Also, there is zero carry - the hind leg is stretched way out behind the hock, but the foreleg is already coming down - most good moving horses would be reaching fully up front for where the hinds are positioned. So, it looks like a quick, quick mover.

Horses and riders are fluid, moving through space, each with their own balance and tendencies with a 1001 corrections and conversations going on in regards to balance, tempo, fluidity, size of the step, the rider holding or a second, or pushing for a second or giving or taking a hh... whatever. Photos can't be the be all, end all when forming an impression.

[Flight]

Totally agree that it's hard to make a full judgement on a photo. I only post the better photos on here, that's for sure. I could show some shockers!!! And yes, the good photos don't mean the whole ride was any good. You can certainly pick a moment in video good or bad to highlight what you want to show.

Interesting with that pic you posted, I would have thought it moved ok so it was good to read Dresseur's interpretation. And tilting the photo to look more uphill, that's a pet hate of mine!! It wrecks nice photos - there's some professional photographers that have been doing it lately at some of the comps I've been to.

[kande50]

I think the entire value of photos is in the opportunity to develop the eye. IOW, everyone knows that the photo is just a moment in time and gives us little information about anything that happened before or after, but being able to see what's going on in that one photo is what's of value.

The only problem I have with trying to see what's happening in a still shot is that I have no way to confirm if what I'm seeing is real/accurate, because I'd usually need more information to do that. IOW, I'd either need a series of still shots, or a few steps before, during and after, if I was going to have any confidence that what I think I'm seeing in the still is accurate.

I also think that if we're looking at stills to develop our eye, then the still needs to be assessed before we already know something about the subject, because that can so easily affect what we think we're seeing in the still alone.

[Kathy Johnson]

One thing about being married to a photographer is I've learned to appreciate photos. No matter what, how horrible, how wonderful, that one moment in time actually existed (barring excessive photoshopping). It was real. So given that all rides are sometimes up and sometimes down, the fact that the one moment in time existed gives up room for hope (and despair). I try to err on the sunny side, and figure if that moment actually happened, then there is room for a lot more of those moments to happen.

On the Waring Blender horse, I can tell you the horse is being very well ridden. She looks balanced, straight and active. I think she may have been ridden over tempo, because that can result the hocky action, and I know I will often push a short strided horse over tempo in trying to get the horse over her back and longer strided.

Photos are funny in another way, which involves us looking at them in retrospect. Most of us do not like to have our pictures taken because we do not like how we look in photos. There are lots of reasons for that, photos are the reverse of what we're used to seeing in the mirror, photos can add pounds, photos can distort or flatten our image, depending on what lens is being used, and lighting can be cruel or kind.

A lot of times, I look at a photo and the photo brings back memories of that time. If I was not happy at that time, I will rarely be happy with the photo. We bring our own filters to the photograph. Weight is one of those really dicey ones. Sometimes I can't see past the fat and it's all I see. Too much body shaming throughout my life.

[galopp]

For what it is worth (from taking thousands of photos) ground lines also have to do with where in the arena the photo is taken, a horse at a center line taken from the front, will have a ground line which appears tilted, but it is not. And actually making it horizontal will not tell the true story. Being an eggbeater is about moving straight from the shoulder and/or lower joints (or not), but interesting the lack of shoulder freedom is apparent after first blush, and it cause a horse to lift hind feet higher; and even a horse which is seeming open can be down hill/over tempo/etc. Photos are what they are, a moment frozen in time, it is interesting we love the complete stride photos, but the mid strides are ugly; in real time we remember the former but don't think about the later.
mho

[musical comedy]

Being an eggbeater is about moving straight from the shoulder and/or lower joints (or not), but interesting the lack of shoulder freedom is apparent after first blush, and it cause a horse to lift hind feet higher; and even a horse which is seeming open can be down hill/over tempo/etc. Photos are what they are, a moment frozen in time, it is interesting we love the complete stride photos, but the mid strides are ugly; in real time we remember the former but don't think about the later.
mho

Maybe eggbeater was the wrong term if eggbeater means up and down movement. I call quick and short strider as eggbeaters or sewing machines. Poor choice of terms on my part probably.

I don't understand the above post Galopp. What is "after first blush"?

Again, this was an inexpensive ottb and not meant as an example of a talented mover. I think there is decent reach through the shoulder. I've seen Freisian fei horses that had less reach. It's the active, bent hock that I think is a good point, rather than a straight hock that is overtracking. Of course there is not going to be 'carry' in ordinary young/green horses.

Galopp, why is it interesting that we love the complete stride photos, and not the midstride?

I also think that if we're looking at stills to develop our eye, then the still needs to be assessed before we already know something about the subject, because that can so easily affect what we think we're seeing in the still alone.

You're right. Perhaps Dressuer is talented enough to judge how that horse moved from my picture, but me telling so in advance might have caused her to look more closely at a fault. There are pictures of movers worse than that one that get put up here and people say "lovely". You just never know if you are getting a true opinion here, which is why I never put up photos and videos. Besides, we all like different types and have different views of correct.

[kande50]

Weight is one of those really dicey ones. Sometimes I can't see past the fat and it's all I see. Too much body shaming throughout my life.

The funny thing about sizes and shapes is that perspective has such a huge effect on it, so if the camera is in one place the subject will look much heavier, but put it in another place, or with different settings, and the subject will look much leggier.

Same with video, view it in one browser and the subjects will look tall and slim, view it in another, or with different settings, and they'll look short and dumpy.

One of my computers won't work with my monitor unless I have the display settings adjusted so that everything is stretched vertically, so now everyone and everything looks much taller and thinner to me. It's the reason I take comments on pix and videos with a grain, because I have no idea what the person commenting is seeing on their monitor.

[Dresseur]

For what it is worth (from taking thousands of photos) ground lines also have to do with where in the arena the photo is taken, a horse at a center line taken from the front, will have a ground line which appears tilted, but it is not. And actually making it horizontal will not tell the true story.

Yes, I agree with this - but, in the example that I shared, the photo was taken perpendicular to the horse, at a neutral angle (neither high nor low) - so, the groundline being tilted up is misleading.

MC, I believe "after first blush" means after the initial impression/look at the photo. And yes, I would say that you're saying that about the horse made me look closer. BTW, I also understand egg beating to be paddling - not the sewing machine action. But from the pic, I felt that the action would be quick, sewing machine type action. And again, there are definite tells in the action of the hind and where the foreleg is in flight.

In regards to the complete stride pics, my viewpoint on that has changed... I used to feel that those were the wow moments. And I must confess, I still LOVE the all 4 off the floor extended trot pics. But, I now realize, I didn't have horses that were good moving enough to take good mid-stride pics (or I wasn't able to develop them at that point to take good mid-stride pics). At this point, I've come to love that point in the stride, and a majority of what I post are the pics taken in mid stride at the trot because there is little that can be hidden at that point. In the canter, I have started to favor the uphill moment with one hindleg grounded, again, there is little to hide and as I get better and am able to better influence the horse, I have more and more mid-stride moments that are good pics.

[musical comedy]

At this point, I've come to love that point in the stride, and a majority of what I post are the pics taken in mid stride at the trot because there is little that can be hidden at that point. In the canter, I have started to favor the uphill moment with one hindleg grounded, again, there is little to hide and as I get better and am able to better influence the horse, I have more and more mid-stride moments that are good pics.

I like the same. However, often when I see a canter pic that looks quite uphill, good engagement in the hind leg, it is often bordering on above the bit and probably doesn't look that nice in the other canter phases. I also like the mid stride trot pic like you show in your recent grey horse.

I hesitate to get into a dicussion about tracking up, but I'm in the camp that collected trot doesn't require tracking up. Someone might put up a pic of a nice beginning collected trot, and there will be people not liking it due to not tracking up. Tracking up with flat gaits and straight hind limbs just swinging forward isn't what we're after. Same goes for those canter pics with the hind limb coming way forward.

[HafDressage]

Pictures are truly a moment in time and usually we all post the best photos we have. I try not to judge people too much by just one photo, but we are all probably guilty of it from time to time.

I will note, however, that what really shocks me in life is how many crappy photos people do post. Like okay if you are an AA or JR/YR sure we do our best and if we don't have perfect pictures it's a bit whatever. BUT often I see professionals post photos where I'm like okay so from the video you took, this is the one you went with? So, that is my real confusion about photos most of the time.

Also, I should note, that slow-motion video is also the most misleading thing to judge of all time. Sales ads that are full of slow motion video often makes horses look super fancy and then you see real speed and it is SO different.

Agree also that photos are great for training the eye.

[Chisamba]

Let me think, why would a person post a photo. Because it shows something they like. A step in the direction of progress. My mare was a pacer. I remember posting a pic because I was excited at her first real 3 beat canter.

i amended my post.

[musical comedy]

Chisamba, I think you misunderstood Haf's posts.

[kande50]

I will note, however, that what really shocks me in life is how many crappy photos people do post.

I think some try very hard to post pix that are representative of where they are in their training, or of the problems they're working on, because they're looking for honest feedback and know that there's no way they can get it if they don't post honest pix.

IOW, just because some only want "that looks wonderful" comments doesn't mean that everyone who posts pix wants or expects that.

That, and what Chisamba said about progress, and wanting to share it with those who have helped us achieve it.

[musical comedy]

I do not this Haf is talking about us here, especially those on the Progress thread. I think she is talking about sale horses and professional photos in mags for ads, etc.

[Chisamba]

Well let me see, i am a professional, (although with no big aspirations, and simply wish to keep my riders safe and happy and progressing in their own time,) and i take screen shots from video, and she posted a slam at "pros who chose that photo from their video". I had always felt that there was a sense of camaraderie in the goals and progress thread that made it feel safe to post things that i thought showed some progress. However, this comment up there, ( again) to me it sounds like a direct and very personal slam. If it was not intended thus, i apologize for my strong response.

[musical comedy]

I had always felt that there was a sense of camaraderie in the goals and progress thread that made it feel safe to post things that i thought showed some progress.

You should feel safe to post what you think is progress or anything you want to post. Is everyone going to like what they see (even if they fib and say they do)? No. Anyone that has been on the board for a while knows the competence of our inhouse pros like you and Kathy J. Even if you go to the show tomorrow and score low, that won't change our opinion of you.

[HafDressage]

LOL. What on earth are you guys talking about here? I was talking about pictures on websites, facebook, and the like when trainers post self-promotional things. For example, I probably have 30 trainer friends on FB and they often post promotional or self-glorifying type things (which alone is perfectly acceptable)... but some of those picture choices make me scratch my head. Things like young horses way over curled in the neck with a comment like "look at how well our training is going" or piaffe that is entirely on the forehand or a picture of a horse in drawreins...etc.

DDBB is obviously a training forum and we talk about training issues and post such things. I don't think anyone on here is claiming to be perfect. But even if that was what I was saying, who cares? Dressage is a judgey sport and there will always be someone out there being a jerk telling you it's "not right." No need to worry about my opinion or anyone else's for that matter.

I do not this Haf is talking about us here, especially those on the Progress thread. I think she is talking about sale horses and professional photos in mags for ads, etc.

Yes, exactly. Thank you Musical! I think maybe Kande interpreted this about UDBB and then Chisamba might have had that in her mind when thinking about my post. It was clear to me that the initial poster was talking about the interpretability of pictures in general and on this board there are often (moreso in the past) discussions of correct professional training (BTV, rollkur, etc) based on single pictures (i.e., we've had the single moment in time debate before and always about professional riders off on the internet). So, that was my frame of reference.

So post away, we're all trying to get it right and last I checked none of us were perfect.

[Flight]

I didn't interpret HafDressage's post as a go at anyone here.
One of my friends used to be a professional photographer at horse events, and she said people were really different in what they liked in the photos. Some would want the horse looking great and not be worried about what they looked like (position/face expression etc). Others would be really picky about what they looked like, and less about the horse etc.

[Ryeissa]

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[Rosie B]

I post a lot of stills from video because those are the only pics I have.

And yes of course I choose the best possible moments. But what tells the story for me is not the one or two pics posted at a time, it's the progression over time. The best pics from the videos of my rides now look a heck of a lot better than the best pics from when Bliss was 3.

[musical comedy]

It's only natural that people would like everyone to like their riding, but that is never going to happen. This is especially true in dressage. In jumping, most people agree on what is a good round and good jumping form. In dressage, as you all know, opinions vary a lot. You (g) need to be concerned only with people whose opinion you value.