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Not wanting to derail the flying changes thread, but wanting to continue the discussion on tempo:

I had a bit of a mental breakthrough the other day that changes in the tempo or speed are harbingers of loss of balance. Sounds pretty simple, or maybe even obvious to some of you.

I've often struggled with Everything's-fabulous-in-the-warmup-but-goes-terribly-wrong-in-the-show-ring-itis, and it's mostly due to evaporating throughness. Thanks to a recent clinic, I finally realized that something changes right before the throughness disappears. Kiwi's normal go-to reaction to a change in balance is to be quicker and cover more ground, but some horses' go-to preservation is to reduce stride length.

So I've been playing with the ability to slow the tempo down in all gaits while in a balance that she doesn't find threatening (i.e. I'm not asking for high collection or mad extensions). My rationale: when I need to be able to do it later in a test, the reaction will be there. The alternative is to never have momentary losses of balance, but I don't think that's a reasonable request for any horse, but especially not for one that's not knocking on the door of GP yet.

What are your thoughts?

Interesting thoughts. It sounds like you are exploring what will keep Kiwi on the right side of throughness instead of zooming past her balance point?

For me, correct tempo is like a good drug---it is soothing, relaxing and provides an environment where throughness can happen. Like if the tempo is too fast or slow, I haven't got a chance of getting my horse through. That said, correct tempo is not enough IMO to take care of balance or assure that a loss of balance doesn't happen...

Speed is the enemy of impulsion, it causes loss of balance. Better a little under tempo (within limits). But there is a difference between ground covering and shortening the stride (the ideal extension is longer stride and slightly slower tempo because of the air time).
So, you have to recognize when the horse even thinks about quicking, then slow-down, pulse the aids. This can be done on a circle so that (bending) alone can help slow the horse (it meets the outside rein) and keeps the stride legnth (because of axial rotation). It is important though that the horse stays up and open at the same time.

Anyone got any vids showing the ideal tempo? What I always feel is ok, my instructor tells me is a little too slow. But then I can overcompensate and rush.

Here's an example. I was actually working on trying to get a faster tempo than our usual pokey one, and on getting him to go fdo. He tends to want to go down, but not out, so I thought maybe if I could speed up the tempo a little that might help. So what do you think: too fast, too slow? https://youtu.be/5ofiMFZkjOc

Change of tempo at a show can also be due to lack of relaxation rather than balance. Most horses want to change tempo past the scarey flowers or judges box or toward the out gate in my experience.

Being able to maintain tempo is therefore the key to showing.

I think in cases of tension a slightly more forward tempo relaxed the horse quicker , so perhaps trying to slow tempo to find balance is counter productive.

Kande I would think that tempo is good for most of the video. The canter maybe a bit more energy but tempo ok?

Flight wrote:Kande I would think that tempo is good for most of the video. The canter maybe a bit more energy but tempo ok?

Thanks, Flight. Agree that the canter needs more energy.

galopp wrote:Speed is the enemy of impulsion, it causes loss of balance. Better a little under tempo (within limits). But there is a difference between ground covering and shortening the stride (the ideal extension is longer stride and slightly slower tempo because of the air time).
So, you have to recognize when the horse even thinks about quicking, then slow-down, pulse the aids. This can be done on a circle so that (bending) alone can help slow the horse (it meets the outside rein) and keeps the stride legnth (because of axial rotation). It is important though that the horse stays up and open at the same time.

While I agree with this, consistently under tempo requires more strength (for the same stride length, that is). It's equine weight lifting, essentially.

And it can be done to an extreme, as shown in horses with passagey trots or 4-beat canters. That's a horse/rider pair that needs quicker tempo to close the back door so the haunches keep stepping under.

Chisamba wrote:Change of tempo at a show can also be due to lack of relaxation rather than balance. Most horses want to change tempo past the scarey flowers or judges box or toward the out gate in my experience.

Being able to maintain tempo is therefore the key to showing.

I think in cases of tension a slightly more forward tempo relaxed the horse quicker , so perhaps trying to slow tempo to find balance is counter productive.

I can agree with this too. Kiwi's tension shows up as quickness, and hot on its heels is bracing or ducking behind the connection (and the automatic 4 or 5 for submission that comes with it). The "easy"--airquotes here because hey, this is dressage-- way to reconnect is to send her back to the bridle but usually that comes with quickness.

I'm experimenting with brief moments of reducing tempo in the trot but keeping the same landspeed with her, almost like doing reps of strength exercises. Shift into a higher gear (lower RPMs), hold for a bit, and then relax into a different gait or exercise. Rinse, repeat. My thought here is that then:
1) She'll get progressively stronger
2) My "hey pony, please come back to me" half-halt will be in muscle memory for when I really need it
and, eventually, 3) She'll be less defensive of her balance when asked to do something different, and the run run run will go away.

I think asking for consistently slower tempo than her norm and also maintaining the same speed (miles per hour) all the time is a bridge too far and will make it easier for her to say NO. Open to thoughts.

Ponichiwa wrote:
And it can be done to an extreme, as shown in horses with passagey trots or 4-beat canters. That's a horse/rider pair that needs quicker tempo to close the back door so the haunches keep stepping under.

I have a question about passagey trots. Passage is a more collected trot, right? So why would a passagey trot be synonymous with the haunches stepping under less? Or is a passagey trot not somewhere between trot and passage?

Passagey trot does not = passage. I'm using "passagey trot" to mean a trot whose tempo has slowed down and which has an exaggerated moment of suspension, but is not actually a passage (i.e. hind end is lagging, and potentially the back is neutral or sagging). Hallmark of that error of gait is hocks out behind and (usually) short in the neck.

Shows up a lot with horses learning collection whose go-to move, unlike Kiwi's, is to reduce tempo and reduce speed rather than compress and take more weight behind.

kande50 wrote:

Ponichiwa wrote:
And it can be done to an extreme, as shown in horses with passagey trots or 4-beat canters. That's a horse/rider pair that needs quicker tempo to close the back door so the haunches keep stepping under.

I have a question about passagey trots. Passage is a more collected trot, right? So why would a passagey trot be synonymous with the haunches stepping under less? Or is a passagey trot not somewhere between trot and passage?

Thre faulty passagey trot is bouncing off the forelegs with hollow back and haunches trailing. Sometimes it even loses rhythm and becomes goose stepping. You see it in bad saddleseat too

Ponichiwa wrote:
Shows up a lot with horses learning collection whose go-to move, unlike Kiwi's, is to reduce tempo and reduce speed rather than compress and take more weight behind.

Ah, so that's what people are talking about when they say passagey trot. I could tell that it wasn't something they wanted, but couldn't tell what it was that they were describing.

What I was trying to figure out how they get the exaggerated moment of suspension without taking more weight behind, because it doesn't look like they're just snapping their knees up like a Saddlebred but are actually getting a moment of suspension. I think what they may be doing is pushing the opposite leg up higher using the one that's still on the ground, so kind of hopping from one side to the other?

I think I may have some video of it.

Passage trot is a evasion which is highly tensioned trot which is not collected (the base of support is not shortened) but just short strides with a tense back, many times it is still the incorrect (over or under) tempo. All trots/piaffe/passage should have roughly the same tempo, the only one which may slow slightly is the extension because there is greater air time.

Finding the right tempo is increasingly important in my warm up to get the throughness. I am still working on it, so no great words of wisdom - but I can say a bit under tempo with good activity and asking for some cadence really helps. If I follow the adage of "riding forward" the way some warmblood riders do, we get nothing but flat. (And yes I understand that forward is not fast - but that seems often lost on some riders and trainers in my area. Fortunately, NOT my trainer!)

I have a very tense mare, I rode in a clinic and the clinician had me rode what I thought was way over tempo, but after ten minutes she settled into a relaxed contact and I was able to reduce the tempo and maintain straight and rhythm, however, it was more of a warm up than the ultimate goal.

Chisamba wrote:I have a very tense mare, I rode in a clinic and the clinician had me rode what I thought was way over tempo, but after ten minutes she settled into a relaxed contact and I was able to reduce the tempo and maintain straightened and rhythm, however, it was more of a warm up than the ultimate goal.

I think the only time I've ever been over tempo was when I went to a ride-review-ride and my horse saw a grey horse get off a trailer and thought it was his mare. He got so worked up over that grey horse that he had so much energy that the judge/clinician asked me if I was riding him that way to show off his gaits, which kind of made me scratch my head because IMO, the excess tension ruined his gaits, and everything else. I was surprised that she couldn't see how tense and distracted he was, but then, she didn't know what he was normally like so maybe wasn't as aware of it as I was.

Chisamba wrote:I have a very tense mare, I rode in a clinic and the clinician had me rode what I thought was way over tempo, but after ten minutes she settled into a relaxed contact and I was able to reduce the tempo and maintain straightened and rhythm, however, it was more of a warm up than the ultimate goal.

This approach can actually work well with my tense/tight backed mare. It takes just a minute or two of a "running" over-tempo for her to settle. If I let her go under tempo (which is her preferred way of starting out), it can take a lot longer for her to let go.

I have a horse that can also get tense/tight in the back and although it seems the opposite of what you should do, I also warm him up a bit over tempo for the first few minutes of trot work. I also add in a lot of transitions and sweeping leg yields as this starts to get him more in front of the leg and less running and tense as he warms up. He can be lazy if he is not reminded that he needs to stay active from the start. I tried the correct tempo/ under tempo for a while with my coach to see if it would be a better option but it just makes him less active, tight and also not stay forward!

klark_kent07, that is very similar to my strategy. It is very different from what I've done with most of the horses I've ridden (a lot of hot TB types) so I think it took me awhile to accept what I needed to do for this horse!

I feel like I act "super caffeinated" for the first few minutes in the initial trot work, with high energy and lots of changes of bend and direction, including those big leg yields. Then miss mare starts to flow and I can "passenger" a bit more as we continue our warm-up.

I had a grand old Hanoverian gelding (RIP, T-ster) whose go-to move was a slight reduction in tempo and energy as a way to back out of the connection. For him, being quicker in trot tempo was a good warmup and he wasn't nearly so quick to back out again.

Kiwi, though, could quickstep all day long. The clinician I recently rode with suggested riding her "until she's too tired to do that anymore"-- which could take hours. Damn those Welsh pony genes. But that can't be the only way around her tension. Right?

In the past, I have let her zoom along in a slightly quicker tempo with slightly longer strides and that has briefly helped the connection. However, when I do that, it's like she clicks into that faster tempo and if I try to bring her back, she snaps right out of it (and then the connection just evaporates). At this point, the need to have a wider range of acceptable tempos is becoming clear.

Interestingly, all of this is less of an issue in the canter. I have quite a bit more adjustability and suppleness in the canter from both a stride length and tempo perspective. Weird, huh?

Not weird at all because the moment of suspension tends to sustain the tempo. Always the rider must keep in mind their effect on the horse, but also inspire what is missing in the horse; tendency to slow? Keep focus, but ask more. Tendency to rush? Focus, pulse aids, slow down. Every horse has a delightful sweet spot when they sustain the energy and balance, its up to find that. But both represent lack of balance/etc.

Ponichiwa, I don't know if this comment is at all useful, but here goes. I have the kind of seat that usually calms very hot/forward horses down and makes them willing to go slower. Call it the opposite of an electric seat! So with my mare, I've had to learn to turn my electric seat on sometimes, as she doesn't need a calming seating in the same way.

You commented earlier: "I think asking for consistently slower tempo than her norm and also maintaining the same speed (miles per hour) all the time is a bridge too far and will make it easier for her to say NO. "

I wonder if you will have to separate these demands slightly to make them more acceptable to buzz buzz Miss Kiwi (slower tempo, but not quite the stride you ultimately want). I'll be interested to hear what evolves and works!

piedmontfields wrote:Ponichiwa, I don't know if this comment is at all useful, but here goes. I have the kind of seat that usually calms very hot/forward horses down and makes them willing to go slower. Call it the opposite of an electric seat! So with my mare, I've had to learn to turn my electric seat on sometimes, as she doesn't need a calming seating in the same way.

You commented earlier: "I think asking for consistently slower tempo than her norm and also maintaining the same speed (miles per hour) all the time is a bridge too far and will make it easier for her to say NO. "

I wonder if you will have to separate these demands slightly to make them more acceptable to buzz buzz Miss Kiwi (slower tempo, but not quite the stride you ultimately want). I'll be interested to hear what evolves and works!

This was helpful. I warmed up yesterday with your last paragraph in mind, and we had a fairly successful day. Warmup mantra: "Slow down, racer pony, and let's breathe more often."

The rest of my ride was mostly little short pieces of things: trot/canter transitions, but leaving each gait after 4-5 fluid relaxed strides in the lower tempo and same groundcover. We're not quite to the point where she can land in the perfect canter/trot every time, but we're getting close.

And as a fun bonus, keeping her pushing equally off both hind legs has been super beneficial in getting her "into" the left rein instead of hollow.

When I lose impulsion with my mare, she immediately goes into a passagey trot. That is her evasion and not a correct passage. It definitely comes from a tense back and trailing haunches. It is like a jackhammer that launches me out of the saddle and is almost impossible to sit. I immediately know that I have to send her forward and stop the up and down.

Well, I continued with my "electric seat" practice last night. It really does help to get Emi slightly over tempo in the trot warm-up for several minutes in order to open up her back. FWIW, her "over tempo" probably looks like other horse's "normal." She is then better able to do a bigger, stretchier canter as we continue the warm-up.

It's funny how doing something that feels "wrong" (encouraging over tempo) is yielding the right outcome. Different horses, different methods.

Having recommended over tempo, i remembered the opposite occasion, a very lazy horse that had always to be pushed for tempo, my coach at the time was german , of the Berlin school, and i only had the pleasure of two clinics with her, she had me slow the lazy horse way way down, but not allow to break gait, every time i wanted to push forward, she had me ride slower, but higher and more open, the horse soon realized that slow with the balance placed behind the saddle could be very hard work, and chose to take a longer more active stride , and was allowed to, as a reward.

as soon as the horse thought that forward and longer was more rewarding it became a very different horse with regards to impulsion.

as i was rereading this, that early clinic came to my mind very strongly.

Minz wrote:When I lose impulsion with my mare, she immediately goes into a passagey trot. That is her evasion and not a correct passage. It definitely comes from a tense back and trailing haunches. It is like a jackhammer that launches me out of the saddle and is almost impossible to sit. I immediately know that I have to send her forward and stop the up and down.

That's interesting, because when my horse goes into his passagey trot it's smooth, and is in fact, one of the rare times that I consistently want to sit. It does get very slow though, which may be why it gets so smooth?
https://youtu.be/nAgeLfgHM2k

passagey trot? No Kande that's just a trot with some suspension.

lorilu wrote:passagey trot? No Kande that's just a trot with some suspension.

Thanks, lorilu. That's what it looked and felt like to me too, but I was told it was a passagey trot, so I think passagey trot means different things to different people?

kande50 wrote:

lorilu wrote:passagey trot? No Kande that's just a trot with some suspension.

Thanks, lorilu. That's what it looked and felt like to me too, but I was told it was a passagey trot, so I think passagey trot means different things to different people?

Just a note of caution. He's not always pushing off the ground equally with both hind legs, which is a sign that the energy (both tempo and speed) is too low for his strength level. Posting can make that tendency worse if you rise as the strong hind pushes off the ground, or better if you swap.

Ponichiwa wrote:Just a note of caution. He's not always pushing off the ground equally with both hind legs, which is a sign that the energy (both tempo and speed) is too low for his strength level. Posting can make that tendency worse if you rise as the strong hind pushes off the ground, or better if you swap.

Thanks! I'm not even sure which is his stronger hind? I'd chalked up the losses of straightness and rhythm to communications breakdowns. It's like he's saying, "Which way do you want to go?" "Are you sure you want to keep going?" "WTF do you want?"

So my plan for our next ride was to work on "more energy in a forward direction" again, as I'm thinking that might carry us through his "Huh?" moments without such obvious hesitations?

I had my training plan all ready and in my head, but then I got the flu and haven't ridden since. It feels like it's been months, but has actually only been a week. But of course, the flu's so much fun that time just flies! (NOT)