Rein length and connection for the lower levels

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Chisamba
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Re: Rein length and connection for the lower levels

Postby Chisamba » Thu Nov 01, 2018 6:58 pm

So there is my photo essay. Kimba was off for a year on stall rest and was very bored. I would put the bit in her mouth and lift, so she raised her neck to the base and shifted her weight into her hindquarters. So she was explained what lifting the but meant without a rider. I also taught her to turn, back up and gasp, flex, using my hands, oh the horror. Imagine using your hands to teach the horse about the bit.

Kimba prefers fast over relaxed so always erred toward the too strong too on the forehand.

With deneb who was built more uphill, I introduced stretch sooner
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Re: Rein length and connection for the lower levels

Postby demi » Thu Nov 01, 2018 8:38 pm

Very nice photo essay, Chisamba ! Thanks. I think part of what I like so much about what you’ve accomplished here, is that you’ve stuck to the principles while allowing for your own, and Kimba’s, individuality. (I think this board is unique in that we have a lot of individuality) Anyway, I think rules are guidelines, while principles are stricter concepts. You’ve preserved the principal of freely forward movement, “No backward hands” is just a rule.

The backward hand moment was nothing more than a glitch (and admittedly, some glitches last for longer than we would like before we are able to resolve them). I try not to worry about people who are very quick to jump on the glitches instead of being able to see that the real beauty is coming out and that the glitch is just a temporary thing. Realizing the inherent beauty of the horse, allows some of us to not be bothered by things that appear to be, “horror of horrors!!” breaking the rules! My own opinion is that doing every. single. thing. by. the. letter. without. exception, is stiff and inelegant. It does not allow for any individuality. And that individuality is often the very essence of the beauty.

You are an individual and I very much appreciate your approach to dressage. In that last photo she is expressing her beautiful power, the way a dancer does. Powerful, controlled, elegant. I can imagine what a few more years will bring for you and her!

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Re: Rein length and connection for the lower levels

Postby demi » Thu Nov 01, 2018 8:47 pm

Sheesh, i just re-read my post above and I imagine some having apoplexy over the fact that I said “No backward hands” is just a rule! Before I get jumped on, let me say that I KNOW the dangers and problems of backward working hands! It is a GOOD rule, and I try hard to keep it, but sometimes, being imperfect, my seat is not where it should be and I compensate with a backward hand. SHAME on me.

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Re: Rein length and connection for the lower levels

Postby Chisamba » Thu Nov 01, 2018 8:54 pm

Demi, i prefer no backward hand myself, and i hate when i catch myself doing it, however, there are times when if you maintain an even contact, and lean forward, you can appear to have a backward hand, but you do not.

Also, there are times when lifting a rein can be backward, but most often it is neutral or forward, I also use side reins, but i explained in the side rein thread how i use them.

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Re: Rein length and connection for the lower levels

Postby Chisamba » Fri Nov 02, 2018 12:47 pm

Two extra thoughts. First, I see no value in teaching a horse to trot o. The forehand. It doesnt build back muscles. Stretch should be the reward for using muscles to develop balance.

The magical German Dame (whose name I do not remember) said as bout rein length, if you want to whisper you lean closer. If you want your aids to whisper, shorten your reins, if you leave them long your aids have to shout to be heard. To tell me to shorten the reins she would say, stop shouting.

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Re: Rein length and connection for the lower levels

Postby musical comedy » Fri Nov 02, 2018 1:08 pm

Chisamba wrote:Two extra thoughts. First, I see no value in teaching a horse to trot o. The forehand. It doesnt build back muscles. Stretch should be the reward for using muscles to develop balance.
Stretching low no matter the frame usually does have a horse on the forehand, especially greener ones. The purpose is suppleness. Just the other day while researching something I ran across an old Ritter article. It discusses the views (often conflicting) of various odg/masters. Interesting read imo.
https://www.artisticdressage.com/blog-content/the-historical-development-of-elevating-from-a-low-head-position

Most good trainers have a system that has worked for them over decades of producing horses up the levels. Whatever that system is, they are unlikely to change it. Why would they? Therefore, if when we chose to work with a trainer, we accept their system and if we disagree with it, we move to a different trainer.

I spend the first 7 minutes or so (seems like hours) stretching and flexing (low and deep) between circles. After that, it's all working up in as much collection as my horse is capable of at this time. If I were to skip the stretching, I don't think it would be productive. My horse has a freakishly short back, and the stretching really helps with suppleness.

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Re: Rein length and connection for the lower levels

Postby Ryeissa » Fri Nov 02, 2018 1:19 pm

I was reminded of the place that stretching has in my program. Riot came out really leaning and no HH In the world helped. I did a modified stretch in half long rein for a few mins and that was just the ticket for having better contact and being able to lift the shoulder.

I KNOW he is on the forehand, but that is not a concern for WARMUP. The benefits > cons. I am able to also HH on a long rein, which is something I have developed over time. Its a nice test to see if the horse is on the seat.

Stretching the neck and back out also helps prevents issues (health wise).

However, unlike MC I always ride the horse out in the nose, or at the vertical. My horse is a reformed BTV curler and he likes to revert to this. I'm not deep, I'm just long low and OUT.

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Re: Rein length and connection for the lower levels

Postby musical comedy » Fri Nov 02, 2018 1:28 pm

Ryeissa wrote:I was reminded of the place that stretching has in my program. Riot came out really leaning and no HH In the world helped. I did a modified stretch in half long rein for a few mins and that was just the ticket for having better contact and being able to lift the shoulder.

I KNOW he is on the forehand, but that is not a concern for WARMUP. The benefits > cons. I am able to also HH on a long rein, which is something I have developed over time. Its a nice test to see if the horse is on the seat.

Stretching the neck and back out also helps prevents issues (health wise).

However, unlike MC I always ride the horse out in the nose, or at the vertical. My horse is a reformed BTV curler and he likes to revert to this. I'm not deep, I'm just long low and OUT.
My bolding. Vet experts advise lunging long and low for horses with kissing spine. Even that Hueschmann (sp) guy that so many people liked recommends it. Rye, the lower you go, the harder it is to keep a horse's nose out. Agree? It would require a lot of strength behind. My mare is not curled in a forced btv or sucked back btv. Her tendency is to poke nose out, not come btv.

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Re: Rein length and connection for the lower levels

Postby Chisamba » Fri Nov 02, 2018 1:50 pm

I first off, I never said a single thing against stretching. I said I saw no value in teaching the horse to trot on the forehand. I should perhaps have said, EXCEPT to stretch which should be offered as a reward. I did not say except, I thought the sentence sufficiently explanatory. I can always afford be more clear but I think people ignore wordy explanations.

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Re: Rein length and connection for the lower levels

Postby musical comedy » Fri Nov 02, 2018 1:58 pm

Chisamba wrote:I first off, I never said a single thing against stretching. I said I saw no value in teaching the horse to trot on the forehand. I should perhaps have said, EXCEPT to stretch which should be offered as a reward. I did not say except, I thought the sentence sufficiently explanatory. I can always afford be more clear but I think people ignore wordy explanations.

Why does it sound like you are so defensive? To make sure I understand you correctly, you are saying you advocate a stretch "as a reward". Well, that's fine, but some of us stretch as a suppling exercise, not as a reward after being ridden up. Does that explain my thinking?

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Re: Rein length and connection for the lower levels

Postby Ryeissa » Fri Nov 02, 2018 2:15 pm

Yes, it's exceptionally hard to keep the nose out when you have longer reins at least based on my horse.
Stretching and lunging are to things that many people think are easy, when in fact they're quite hard

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Re: Rein length and connection for the lower levels

Postby Chisamba » Fri Nov 02, 2018 7:07 pm

I agree that stretching is more difficult with the nose out, but I consider it a failure when I dont achieve it, not inevitable.

I test my connection, I will experiment with impulsion, correct response to reins on the longer contact until I get a better reach out.

As an aside, there are both moments and whole days where I may accept behind the vertical as a step in the process of learning. I may even ask for it.

I am possible too willing to try things that are different. I have on a few occasions definitely taken some training cul de sacs because of wanting to learn from clinicians. For example my experience with legrete..ish.

And not all SRS clinicians are equal.

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Re: Rein length and connection for the lower levels

Postby Ryeissa » Fri Nov 02, 2018 10:20 pm

Chisamba wrote:I agree that stretching is more difficult with the nose out, but I consider it a failure when I dont achieve it, not inevitable.

I test my connection, I will experiment with impulsion, correct response to reins on the longer contact until I get a better reach out.

As an aside, there are both moments and whole days where I may accept behind the vertical as a step in the process of learning. I may even ask for it.

I am possible too willing to try things that are different. I have on a few occasions definitely taken some training cul de sacs because of wanting to learn from clinicians. For example my experience with legrete..ish.

And not all SRS clinicians are equal.


Its interesting that you use BTV and legrete- can you talk more about how you use these two very different systems? What makes you choose one vs another?

My one cardinal rule is "no deep riding" but that is my personal view. I've been pondering that I am getting less and less likely to watch clinicians to get more tools and ideas. I find that my teachers lately are more in the same vein these days.

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Re: Rein length and connection for the lower levels

Postby khall » Fri Nov 02, 2018 11:22 pm

chisamba I don't think your approach would have worked with Rip very well. We've kind of gone at it the opposite way. Long rein (with contact not thrown away) and freer did not care about being on the shoulders which is where he wanted to be, had to build up his flexibility to be able to sit more (still working on it). Rip is powerfully built but not the most flexible of horses naturally. Lateral work was our friend and still is. Now though the rein is much shorter as he is able to sit more. The piaffe work will help this tremendously and really solidifies his uphill posture. I think Rip would have shut down if I had tried to ride him shorter when he was younger (though when he was having one of his woo wee days I sure did!) I do still work on a long rein some. Where I specifically check to see if he is there and listening regardless of the rein length. I don't as MC does warmup deep or round or even very long. I do use lateral work in my warmup.

Raphael Soto when I took a lesson with him he had said stretch after work not in warm up. Have to have the collection to get the stretch. Of course this was on PREs not WBs.

I like the stretch to help with stride scope. But one has to be careful it takes strength to stretch well.

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Re: Rein length and connection for the lower levels

Postby Tsavo » Fri Nov 02, 2018 11:23 pm

On the lunge, my horse can have his nose out and within inches of the ground. When he does this, his body assumes quite a bounce. I have never achieved that under saddle.

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Re: Rein length and connection for the lower levels

Postby Chisamba » Fri Nov 02, 2018 11:56 pm

Ryeissa, I do not use legrete. That was a, for me, fruitless cul de sac.

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Re: Rein length and connection for the lower levels

Postby Ryeissa » Sat Nov 03, 2018 1:44 pm

Chisamba wrote:Ryeissa, I do not use legrete. That was a, for me, fruitless cul de sac.


Ok, I was confused. My mistake.

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Re: Rein length and connection for the lower levels

Postby Chisamba » Sat Nov 03, 2018 9:08 pm

This illustration again from Alois Podhajskis book was my early and enduring influence. I still read it and reference it.
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Re: Rein length and connection for the lower levels

Postby Ryeissa » Sat Nov 03, 2018 9:30 pm

yup, exactly.

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Re: Rein length and connection for the lower levels

Postby Chisamba » Sun Nov 04, 2018 4:24 am

I used to work as a human massage therapist for a sport rehab team that was responsible for recovery of my university sports teams. One of the biggest sources of soft tissue injury was cold stretching. Stretching should not be a warm up, it should be done after the muscle is well used and warm. Many scientifically significant studies have shown that stretching doesn't help prevent injury, increase strength, speed, or muscle growth, and doesn't reduce soreness or accelerate recovery…it does have its uses. If you're going to engage in a sport or activity that requires a high amount of flexibility, then static stretching can help. But it should be done on warmed up muscles.

I follow the same principles with my horses.

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Re: Rein length and connection for the lower levels

Postby khall » Sun Nov 04, 2018 4:38 am

So I rode with shorter reins today. For many reasons: contemplating what exvet has shared, watching a Karen R video on this very thing, seeing a trot video of Rip and I from the clinic, what instructor from Spain harped on quite a bit (shorten your reins!), rereading Mark's book Lesson in Lightness last year talking of the development of the horse and the stages they go through and finally from a long ago lesson with Hokan Thorn on my OTTB.

It was interesting. No rearing, but Rip was not so sure he was happy about it (also not sure how much of it is his TO has been curtailed with Joplin on stall rest) But when he stepped into the work which I kept fairly brief due to time constraints and not wanting to over do it, he felt way different. More power (again not sure how much is the shorter TO or the shorter rein) way easier to do lateral work with and he was offering half steps as we went down the incline riding in the field, I was not asking for it. Did not canter, footing was a bit iffy. Will play with it again tomorrow in the arena and see what occurs. One thing Karen R had her student doing was uberstreiken mostly on the inner rein but also some on the outer rein. So I did a bit of that too, may need to do more. I really am getting a good bit out of Karen R's video classroom. I am interested in seeing what happens with this work. Asking more from Rip which he should be more than ready for.

That's interesting chisamba and exactly what Raphael Soto said. What would you consider to be a proper warm up? 10 min walking on a longish rein? WTC not asking much? Lateral work?

In Spain we would always start in walk doing lateral work (LY, SI, HI, HP) then move to trot same deal, maybe a bit of stretch after this work then canter lateral work and CC. Sometimes FCs, sometimes CP, sometimes piaffe. Depending on which horse I was riding. Stretching in the canter after the work.

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Re: Rein length and connection for the lower levels

Postby Chisamba » Mon Nov 05, 2018 2:46 am

I do walk to get the horse started but i do not think of walking as enough activity to really warm up muscles sufficiently, i like to have some trot and canter before i start with too much flexibility or stretching. Note i do not consider a bit of lateral work stretching of flexibility work, i consider it balance work, so i do not mind doing some lateral work in the walk as part of the warm up, I do remember some one thinking lateral work should not be done before warm up so i add that part in.

It also depends on if the horse came in from turn out, had been in a stall for hours, what the outside weather is, et al

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Re: Rein length and connection for the lower levels

Postby exvet » Mon Nov 05, 2018 5:44 am

Well we rode opportunity classes today for the sole purpose of continuing to work on contact while giving Junior recognized show exposure. All in all still a work in progress but I feel we're still making the right type of progress none the less without sacrificing the contact. There were moments of BTV where we appropriately got dinged; but, by the last test our canter departs were dead on and our connection became steadier. Lots to work on but we'll see next month if Heather thinks we're achieving our purpose.

Image

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Re: Rein length and connection for the lower levels

Postby Tsavo » Mon Nov 05, 2018 12:06 pm

Here's a first and probably only... I got gigged for making my reins too short at one point in my lesson this weekend. This horse I ride is a sporty TB. He is correctly forward and we were working on SI without letting the haunches escape. He was so gung ho in this work coupled with my trying to keep the hinds traveling straight that I just kept creeping up on the rein. I was trying to ride a 4 track and clearly I cannot ride a four track without cheating and letting the hinds slip. That is what she gigged me on in addition to being told to ride SI in three track.

If this horse wasn't so damn easy to sit I would never have been able to do that length of sit trot work. It seems like half the lesson or more was in sit trot. We probably overdid it on the laterals in trying to get it. We had a relaxing ride the next day and he gets today off because it is a gym day for me.

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Re: Rein length and connection for the lower levels

Postby Tsavo » Mon Nov 05, 2018 1:19 pm

exvet wrote:Well we rode opportunity classes today for the sole purpose of continuing to work on contact while giving Junior recognized show exposure. All in all still a work in progress but I feel we're still making the right type of progress none the less without sacrificing the contact. There were moments of BTV where we appropriately got dinged; but, by the last test our canter departs were dead on and our connection became steadier. Lots to work on but we'll see next month if Heather thinks we're achieving our purpose.

Image


His head and neck look like you have correct contact there. It looks like he is taking the contact correctly forward, lifting the withers, and is arcing out the neck to it.

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Re: Rein length and connection for the lower levels

Postby exvet » Mon Nov 05, 2018 1:55 pm

Thank you Tsavo that was the goal and we achieved it for moments. I did get marked down, severely a couple of times, for the times he went BTV. Fortunately I think the judge understood what I was trying to do because she kept giving me 7.5s for my position and effect of aids.

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Re: Rein length and connection for the lower levels

Postby Tsavo » Mon Nov 05, 2018 2:00 pm

Look, you took a downhill horse to PSG. You get perennial 12's out of 10 on position and effectiveness of aids in my opinion. :-)

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Re: Rein length and connection for the lower levels

Postby Ryeissa » Mon Nov 05, 2018 3:35 pm

if you want a picky observation, raise your hand 2" to not cock the wrists downwards, but hey you probably know that and its a green horse at a show- bonus for staying on.

I find when I lift the bit off the bars it really helps my horse not go BTV, but each horse is unique so ignore that if it doesn't work for you.

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Re: Rein length and connection for the lower levels

Postby Tsavo » Mon Nov 05, 2018 5:31 pm

My comment was on the quality of contact, not her hand position. In the picture I posted from a clinic, my hands were very whack but my horse was still clearly flexed right. I assume I was shortening the reins and I assume exvet was doing something momentarily also. That's why the moment in time snapshot of hand position is less instructive than the contact depicted.

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Re: Rein length and connection for the lower levels

Postby Ryeissa » Mon Nov 05, 2018 6:04 pm

Tsavo wrote:My comment was on the quality of contact, not her hand position. In the picture I posted from a clinic, my hands were very whack but my horse was still clearly flexed right. I assume I was shortening the reins and I assume exvet was doing something momentarily also. That's why the moment in time snapshot of hand position is less instructive than the contact depicted.


Yeah, I have no idea.

Both hands are dropped, anyways I have no idea of this was intentional. I just wanted to relate my story that this can be a reason horses get more BTV since that is something she described as a problem.

I'm a huge huge sticker for position and angles, since anything that my horse does usually is my fault and clearing up my flaws makes my horse go better.

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Re: Rein length and connection for the lower levels

Postby exvet » Tue Nov 06, 2018 12:46 am

Tsavo you are correct. I was actively shortening the reins hence the cocked wrist(s), albeit one at a time. Thank you Ryeissa for the suggestion. Right now I am willing to look as ugly as need be to establish a consistent acceptance of contact. What that means and especially for me with my physical issues is that at times I will drop my hands very low and once I get the right response go back to the 'ideal'. I have to exaggerate that with my right hand especially in the canter departs (because of his going above the bit to strike off) though we did see the light at the end of the tunnel by Sunday on that one. Before anyone has heart failure my goal with my low hands isn't to hold his head in any one position but to, again, maintain consistent forward thinking contact despite where he might try to place his head. Hopefully within short order focusing on perfecting my equitation will take the front seat (again).

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Re: Rein length and connection for the lower levels

Postby Ryeissa » Tue Nov 06, 2018 12:36 pm

exvet wrote:Tsavo you are correct. I was actively shortening the reins hence the cocked wrist(s), albeit one at a time. Thank you Ryeissa for the suggestion. Right now I am willing to look as ugly as need be to establish a consistent acceptance of contact. What that means and especially for me with my physical issues is that at times I will drop my hands very low and once I get the right response go back to the 'ideal'. I have to exaggerate that with my right hand especially in the canter departs (because of his going above the bit to strike off) though we did see the light at the end of the tunnel by Sunday on that one. Before anyone has heart failure my goal with my low hands isn't to hold his head in any one position but to, again, maintain consistent forward thinking contact despite where he might try to place his head. Hopefully within short order focusing on perfecting my equitation will take the front seat (again).


thanks for the explanation!


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