DefinitelyDressage.com

I don't think I've ever seen a thread with a topic like this. I don't know if anyone else is interested in it or not.

I will never jump a fence over 5 feet. Could I, maybe? But I don't have the guts or the horse to do it with.... and to think at one point I wanted to be a GP jumper!

A problem that I will never be able to solve? Hmmm... I will never be as good as I want to be. Is that a bad thing? Maybe, maybe not. It means that I'm learning. If I was going to be less esoteric about it. I'll never be able to solve a horse with a rearing problem or major bucking problem. Don't need to, don't want to.

Hmm, I think it's an interesting question. It's not really how I think about things in life, but I suppose I have some answers, like:

I do not ever want to try to solve the following problems:
-horse with a rearing habit
-horse with a history of human aggression
-horse with a feral past, unless that's already been sorted out (I'd love a mustang...that is well-trained!)

Bucking is less scary for me, but still would make me take a sober look before taking it on. At this age, I should probably say foxhunting, but it so much fun on an experienced horse in beautiful country. I will never "foxhunt" coyotes out west (or anywhere), though! Hours of straight line galloping through rugged terrain is not my idea of a good time.

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Ah, I see.

So, I think that given enough time, most problems can be improved upon. Not necessarily solved, but improved upon. It also depends on goals. If your goal is to show - then that crappy extended trot may never get more than a 5 or 5.5. My theory, collect the 5.5 and move on. Find something the horse does well and capitalize on that. Most of us are not on 8-9 movers. So, we have to make do with what we have. Even Miro, as talented as I think he is, will not have the suspension and float of a warmblood. That's ok - his highlight is collection, and I'll spend the time working on that. Maybe, if we get into passage, I can improve the suspension, but in the scheme of things, I'm not worried about it.

If it's an attitude or behavioral problem, it's up to the rider to decide how much they are willing to deal with, and sometimes it's time to move on. When I was younger and before I knew more, my benchmark of a good horse was one that did not try to buck me off. Now my benchmark is will the horse try for me and work with me, not against me. Does it come out ready to work or is it grudging me every minute I am on it's back or handling it.

I once had a horse that was hell on wheels due to bad handling and training in it's previous life. I went way outside the box and found ways to solve aspects of it, but it never went away entirely - or I wasn't good enough at the time (very possible). But IMO, horses will always default to their intrinsic out. Charm for instance... his default is to stop and threaten to rear. I have been very, very careful in my work with him and his owner, and while ever once in a while, he tests, he's rideable for his ammy owner at this point. However, there are parts of his personality that we will always watch for, and he is not tolerant of the mistakes she needs to make while learning something new - so she takes school master lessons and I keep him a few steps ahead of her.

So if you are talking about do you want to solve a dangerous behavior - IMO no, I do not want to solve that. If it's that the horse is pushy or just overall annoying to deal with, that can be solved, and I wouldn't be afraid to get help pushing through something. If it's a gait or talent thing, I'll work on it, but I'll focus on highlights.

And if this still doesn't answer your question, I'll try again! lol

musical comedy wrote:Ok, I think I wasn't clear enough. I'm focusing on the horses we are riding now, the problems we are having with them, and if we think some of them are not ever going to improve or be resolved.

Ah--sorry to misunderstand! Hmm. While my horse is still improving in her performance (as I improve my training ), she is 16 years old and I know that improvement or even steady state won't go on endlessly. So that is a reality coming up at some point. Also, I would say my horse is limited by her body type in what she can do well (aka *not* an 8 mover, it took years to improve her trot to a solid 6/sometimes 7). I don't think even with fabulous ground help I could get my mare to the FEI levels, but probably a better rider-trainer could. She is not built downhill, the collected work comes more easily to her, and she has quite good balance and reactivity on the whole.

I don't know if I will solve the flying change challenge this winter, but I'm going to try. I think it is more my training than her which is at issue (if I had wonderful regular help, I think we could solve it). My goal when I got her was to solidly school all of 3rd and some of 4th. We're making progress.

My horse is not limited by her mind/temperament though, so that makes a lot of the work easier to do. She is also quite physically tough and sound. She is really willing to work hard with focus every ride. Overall, I feel that I am the weaker link in our partnership (my education, my training, my body).

One good thing about getting horses as babies is that I have no one to blame for their training problems other than myself, which of course, makes me much more patient when it comes to having to spend time fixing them.

I'm also unconcerned about physical issues such as conformation or temperament, because no horse (or rider) is perfect, and I'm happy to adjust my expectations to accommodate any imperfections. In fact, more than half the fun for me is in trying to figure out how to get my horse to do what I want him to do, so if he was too easy I'd probably have to go out and find myself a more challenging horse.

musical comedy wrote:I don't think I've ever seen a thread with a topic like this. I don't know if anyone else is interested in it or not.

Great topic!

Things I will never be able to do:
-compete internationally (lack time & funds, among other things)
-on Jet: do a long distance marathon (he just isn’t built for it)
-on Finn: not sure!
-on Panache: hook him up to a carriage (yikes, that would be worth the price of admission to watch that!))

Problems I will never be able to solve:
-Panache: being an over-sensitive scaredy-cat, and sometimes being a jerk (to other horses)
-Finn: not sure!
-Jet: connecting his hind end to his front end the way upper level horses are connected - don’t get me wrong, I work on this and make progress, but it’ll always be somewhat of an issue.

Hmmm....I have some bad habits that won't go away, but I know how to improve them and actively lessen my bad riding:)

So I don't have any *problems* with my horse or my riding....My horse is very well suited to dressage, and wants to do the work. I think that helps a ton navigate things.... I don't get stuck due to a horse-related issue like soundness, bad attitude, etc. I would say anticipation and getting ahead of me mentally are two things I have to always be aware of. they aren't problems, it is what gives a horse the work ethic.

maybe I'm not understanding the question? hahaha

I doubt seriously Rip will ever go down the CL at GP. He is just not that talented and with a difficult temperament (not goey). He is powerful but does not use that power for good:) We are still plugging away though, to see what all we can accomplish. Mark once told me I would be much further along if I had had an easier horse. Ah well.

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My precious Emma. Just took this pic today. I was hoping that since the summer weather has turned into fall, that she wouldn’t have to be suited against flies to go outside. I left the sheet and leggings off for two days and she had she ended up with bites. So it’s back to the armor. I will never solve this problem, but I can minimize it.

There is more, though. I have given up on carrying a whip. I tried to desensitize her to it but without success. I can carry it, but if I actually touch her with it, she acts like I am trying to kill her. She gets so defensive that it becomes unsafe for me at my age.

Flipping her nose and shaking her head while riding. It comes and goes. Can’t figure it out.

I can fly spray her ONLY if she isn’t tacked up. With tack, she dances nervously if I even hold the fly spray bottle.

She gets nervous when I start to tighten the girth. I do it very slowly and have tried different approaches, but still, I think she will always be get tense unless I tighten very slowly.

Bucking. If I walk her on a long rein, she is fine. If I ask for trot on a long rein, I get about 10-15 strides before she starts bucking. A short rein prevents the bucking, but she hollows and tenses.

Ive done vetting, horses dentist, saddle fitting, a natural horsemanship trainer...

But here’s the good news: I love this mare and she knows it. I have backed off on how much I try with her, but I haven’t given up. I think we can work something out because we are real friends.

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MC it sounds like she does not understand contact very well. That is the very reason I do so much in hand work to teach the horse about the bit before I ever sit in the saddle. Have you done any WIH with her? Any jaw flexions/releases? If not, I sure would. I know you are not a fan of WIH but it can really help the horse understand so much about the bit and rein aids. RB is something I do every time I work with any of the horses in hand, even the green beans. Would also be a way to keep working her while she is down with the sarcoid.

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MC, do you think perhaps teaching the rein back would solve some of her walk contact issues? If not, ignore the suggestion. I think the walk, especially the connected walk, is the most difficult gait. the particular problem with contact in the walk is that there is not enough impulsion to make it contact easy. I think there are grand prix horses out there that do not have a good collected walk. Have you tried the opposite? Have you tried slowing her way down, doing some bend, counter bend, rewarding with release for small moments of elasticity? Just asking.

Now , for me personally, I try to solve each problem. I may shelve them for a while and come back to them, but I will experiment with many different things to test responses. different speed, different, rein length, different degrees of up, open, down round, etc. Where i have not succeeded, i have used it to learn to ride other horses better. Kimba had so much trouble learning to canter, I am not sure i shall ever be able to teach her to do flying changes, I am approaching it very slowly, perhaps my fear for it is greater than the actual process will be, but I do not think i will be able to go past fourth level on her, with the straight line changes, however, I will keep working on it. If i do not succeed this time, I hope to learn enough to make the next horse better

MC, I agree, that's frustrating. But, while frustrating, doesn't sound like it's dangerous so it's something that if you don't intend to show, is something that could be lived with if you decided to. I'm type A, so I'd want to solve it and figure it out. I had two horses like that in the walk, and they did eventually figure it out, but it took experimenting. There are things I can think of to attempt to clarify for her - if you want my 2 cents, I'm happy to PM. My guess is that it's not a question of can't, more like has learned that she can say no - and that walking on a loose rein is much more preferable than working. And, as you know, you have impulsion in the trot and canter that you don't have in the walk - which makes it easier for her to be able to say no.

musical comedy wrote:Anyway, I didn't start this thread for the purpose of posting and asking for help or giving it. I have a trainer.

Yeah well I am going to make a suggestion anyway!

Have you ever tried juggling your hands? For some reason my horse LOVED this. He immediately came into the bridle and it worked like a charm. I used to do it with my horse even when there was no issue just because he liked it. It is very easy to do without a backward hand.

Maybe it would have the same effect with your mare?

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musical comedy wrote:

Ryeissa wrote:Hmmm....I have some bad habits that won't go away, but I know how to improve them and actively lessen my bad riding:)

So I don't have any *problems* with my horse or my riding....My horse is very well suited to dressage, and wants to do the work. I think that helps a ton navigate things.... I don't get stuck due to a horse-related issue like soundness, bad attitude, etc. I would say anticipation and getting ahead of me mentally are two things I have to always be aware of. they aren't problems, it is what gives a horse the work ethic.

maybe I'm not understanding the question? hahaha

Sounds like you do understand the question. Is there nothing you want to do with you horse that you're struggling with or you feel you can't ever achieve? Sounds like the answer is "no".

Yeah I said I had a lot of bad habits and failts .... !

The way the question was written in the original version suggested there were CURRENT issues i won't ever overcome. No, I feel I can work for progress on some level

Now will I never achieve passage. But you asked about current endeavors.

In dressage I always struggle with contact and straigtness but that's just how it goes.

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On the walk topic-- may help to keep in constant shoulder fore or shoulder in. If you have half pass at your disposal, feel free to use that at the walk. Very hard to jig in half pass.

For me... I'm never going to be a jumper. I just do not have it in me. And I may never be able to use a whip on Kiwi. Even carrying it is sketchy.

Well MC sounds like you and your trainer are not fixing the issue and your mare is saying stuff it to you. The horse can only brace when they are not bending. If the horse has flexion and bend they will not and cannot brace.

ok, I'll bite...

I agree with others who've said that any issue can be improved, but there are things my horses and I will likely never excel at (either because of me or them or both).

With my mare, we'll never have particularly good medium or extended trot. It has already gotten better, but it will never be great. I struggle to keep her from getting quick or on the forehand and even when excited at liberty, a big trot is not her thing. i think a different rider would get a better medium/extended trot out of her than I can. But I don't think it would ever be the highlight of her work. But luckily what we lack there we can make up somewhere else.

One problem in our relationship that has already improved, but that I will probably always have to be thinking about with her is not losing forward and motivation. I am naturally a hot horse kind of gal and my mare is energy efficient. She can be plenty forward and responsive, but only if she's a. interested in the work; b. thinks i mean it; and c. if i can avoid getting into any kind of nagging or negotiating with her. I don't want to say this is a problem that wont be solved, but it is a dynamic that i don't think will ever entirely go away. I will always have to work hard to be creative with my exercises and very clear about my aids and consistent about my expectations for responsiveness. This isn't easy for me, but it's also making me a better rider, so I'm also grateful for it.

I've only had my gelding for a few months and he's quite green, so it's too early for me to answer this question for him just yet. Ask me again in a year!

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There seem to be a lot of periods in this post.

On the horse I have now, who is going to be my last fancy dressage horse unless something completely unexpected happens, I will never be able to piaffe and probably not passage. I don't believe we have the time left in either of us to build up the strength and finesse, and frankly, I have a terrible sense of rhythm.

Moutaineer wrote:There seem to be a lot of periods in this post.

On the horse I have now, who is going to be my last fancy dressage horse unless something completely unexpected happens, I will never be able to piaffe and probably not passage. I don't believe we have the time left in either of us to build up the strength and finesse, and frankly, I have a terrible sense of rhythm.

I have heard the expression Mr X could teach a pig to piaffe. My youthful trainer took the challenge and taught Percy, our pig, to piaffe. I am not Mr X. Sunstorm piaffed and in each step his head would get lower and closer to his chest. And he would shuffle. Not impressive.

Its easy to ride piaffe on a trained horse. Comfortable, easy to sit no sense of rhythm needed. Except to show and count steps.

Another area I won't ever improve: How Emi feels on a cold damp day (aka like sludge!). She physically feels so much better in heat than in cold and dampness makes her PSSM condition more evident. I have to really drop expectations on a day like that (and keep her warm and loosen her up at the same time). Work makes her feel better, but I can't do the same work that I can do on a hot day or even a dry winter day.

Also, I don't know what the period comments were about, but when I got my mare she *did not walk*---she pranced (in that Friesian-y way but with even more tension if that makes sense). Didn't matter if it was on contact or long reins. It took time, but she can now walk on a long rein and a short rein. I do use lateral work at the walk to keep the walk proper on contact if she gets tense. She does not have an amazing walk (or any amazing gait!) but it is now pretty consistently pure. I do work on the free walk most rides.

this is a strange thread. what happened?

Chisamba wrote:
Its easy to ride piaffe on a trained horse. Comfortable, easy to sit no sense of rhythm needed. Except to show and count steps.

really? Like a true piaffe? I doubt that. I'm talking collected GP quality.

Yeah, I don't think I'll ever get Annabelle to piaffe or passage.

I know I'll be working on straightening her forever, so I guess that's an unsolvable problem. Her haunches are much more equal, as are her front feet now, but she'll never be as straight as a horse who didn't start out with those deficits.

No I don't View straightness and connection as problems I view them as part of doing dressage. We will never be perfectly straight or perfectly connected period problems to me or something that's more inherent to the Horse and Rider. Such as for example if a horse does not take one cancer lead or bucks in the trasitions. More of a situational thing if you will?
I guess I just don't like the word problem, when horses and Riders start with so much asymmetry as part of being alive I think it's just something to work with. Now I understand more about how to fix this so it doesn't seem like it's really a problem.

Cancer lead haha. I meant canter.

This looks like a good topic! MC why did you delete yours? I'm at work so when I get home I'll read through and join in.

Ryeissa wrote:

Chisamba wrote:
Its easy to ride piaffe on a trained horse. Comfortable, easy to sit no sense of rhythm needed. Except to show and count steps.

really? Like a true piaffe? I doubt that. I'm talking collected GP quality.

Ok I will rephrase that, it is easy for me to sit and ride a Grand Prix quality piaffe on a trained horse. However my own horse was not as easy as the piaffe I have ridden on horses not trained by me.

I will never be able to do any decent height eventing with Ding, he just doesn't like it. So I am going to settle on the lower levels and work on keeping him confident.

Problems I can't solve - I dont really have any major ones? Lots of little ones but I think they can all be improved. I'll never have enough money to buy a really fancy horse I suppose! So, I just have to try and make mine look fancy

I'm not sure that I'll ever be able to do 1x tempi changes. However, I once thought I'd never be able to do a single flying change.

Those who said they wont be able to do piaffe/passage. One of the cool things about classical style training, is that piaffe is taught early as a training exercise to help strengthen and balance the horse. So I now think of piaffe working to make my horse stronger for all the 'normal' work, rather than the other way around. Of course as the horse develops, the piaffe does to.
I'm surprised that I managed to get Norsey to be a half decent horse to ride (he was very sensitive and crazy in the early days, I thought he would kill me) and that I've gotten as far as I have with Ding. I think if you are prepared to try and work through and find solutions and be brave enough to just give it a go, you do get there.

I agree 100% about piaffe Flight (you beat me to it:). Anja B says it is the best gymnastic movement for the horse. I wished I had started a bit earlier with Rip on it.

Chisamba I also agree with you that it is not difficult, in fact is pretty easy to ride piaffe (and passage) on a well trained horse. As for training piaffe, it really depends on each horse how they take to it. I've seen and trained one who found it pretty easy to understand and have seen it not as easy (Rip and my OTTB from years ago) Much harder to ride changes correctly (counting especially) and CPs and the HP zig zag (canter).

It's easy to piaffe when you're a first level rider.
Step 1 - Decide to go out for a bareback ride on a brisk fall day with a stiff breeze...

Need I go on? LOL!

M&M wrote:It's easy to piaffe when you're a first level rider.
Step 1 - Decide to go out for a bareback ride on a brisk fall day with a stiff breeze...

Need I go on? LOL!

lmao

M&M wrote:It's easy to piaffe when you're a first level rider.
Step 1 - Decide to go out for a bareback ride on a brisk fall day with a stiff breeze...

Need I go on? LOL!

Yes, well, don't lunge Annabelle at a show and she will show her levade, and probably do other airs above ground too!

Dresseur wrote:So, I think that given enough time, most problems can be improved upon. Not necessarily solved, but improved upon. It also depends on goals. If your goal is to show - then that crappy extended trot may never get more than a 5 or 5.5. My theory, collect the 5.5 and move on. Find something the horse does well and capitalize on that. Most of us are not on 8-9 movers. So, we have to make do with what we have. Even Miro, as talented as I think he is, will not have the suspension and float of a warmblood. That's ok - his highlight is collection, and I'll spend the time working on that. Maybe, if we get into passage, I can improve the suspension, but in the scheme of things, I'm not worried about it.

I will never be able to improve my horse's extended trot. I just don't have the skill or experience to make it much more than it is currently. And that's okay. We've got so many other things that we are working on, that I've just given it up as a bad job.

For me, I would not say 'never be able to do or solve', it is more that some things are challenging and my progress seems slow as molasses.
That 'thing' for me is sitting the extended trot (and some days just sitting regular trot). I can do it, but some days are better than others and I do not feel I stick the extended trot very well most days. I HAVE made progress, have tried several different visuals that work to some degree, but it is slow and I just don't feel good at it and definitely not 'effortless'.

At this point I think it would take an act of god to get a real medium out of my horse LOL. Not to say we haven't made improvements in that area but I just don't think he has it in him nor do I have it in me. I'm not really heart broken over it. He's really good at collected work and a blast to ride so who cares. It's given me a chance to learn a million different techniques to improve the extended gates.

Boudicea wrote:At this point I think it would take an act of god to get a real medium out of my horse LOL. Not to say we haven't made improvements in that area but I just don't think he has it in him nor do I have it in me. I'm not really heart broken over it. He's really good at collected work and a blast to ride so who cares. It's given me a chance to learn a million different techniques to improve the extended gates.

You are not alone. I believe some horses just do not have what I call 'range' in their gaits. No matter how well they can sit and collect, they just can't do a very good medium. I agree with you "who cares". I guess someone showing cares, but since I don't anymore, I am resigned to be happy with what my horse is able to give me.

musical comedy wrote: I guess someone showing cares, but since I don't anymore, I am resigned to be happy with what my horse is able to give me.

My mule is 23 years old and he was born here, and in spite of the fact that he's out of a Halflinger mare who prefers to extend her trot rather than canter, he prefers to canter, and because I mostly ride him out on trail I don't really care whether he trots or canters. So he's never extended his trot because as soon as he gets to the point where he can't trot fast enough he just rolls right off into canter.

But last weekend we were out on the trail when he got a bee in his bonnet and wanted to go, and then got all collected up because I didn't dare let him canter because he felt like he might explode.
And that's when he gave me his first medium/extended trot ever. It was still modest compared to horses/mules who have more natural ability, but it was the best trot I've ever experienced on him.

So now that I know that he can do it I'll work on getting a much calmer version of it!

I'll never be able to mount up from the ground. Harbour is 17.3

I don't think there is anything I cannot solve, he's not shown any hint of an issue like that.

Dresseur wrote:I will never jump a fence over 5 feet. Could I, maybe? But I don't have the guts or the horse to do it with.... and to think at one point I wanted to be a GP jumper!

Is this a question of middle age and beyond? As a teenager, I rode an aged grade western QH pony (14.1) mare which my dad eventually bought for me ($200), but in the meantime, I was riding with a friend and her jumper/hunter horse wild across the countryside. We didn't go through gates, we jumped the fences (I was bareback, to boot). And in an arena at a neighboring boarding stable, I took her over 5 foot jumps at the top of the standards. Didn't know any better, didn't know I wasn't suppose to be able to do it. . . I get "reality", but dreams can most certainly enlarge reality.

(I do shudder now to think of what was asked of that blessed little mare.)