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One bell boot
Posted: Wed Sep 04, 2019 3:43 am
by Chisamba
https://thehorse.com/178062/crooked-hor ... -can-help/Hilary clayton used a chain, but dont worry, so long as it is significant enough for the horse to be aware its there, a bell boot will work.
Is your horses hock sore, dont fix the hock, one bell boot will cure that.
Is your horse weak in the hip. One bell boot
Is your riding symmetric, one bell boot
Does your horses sore tooth cause asymmetry...one bell boot.
No, no dont worry , it's not legitimizing unethical saddleseat techniques, it's only a bell boot. But if one bell boot doesn't work because you have not addressed the underlying issue, or natural asymmetry through training, it was only a bell boot.
And hey, if you horse becomes sore because there was a pain or strength issue causing the asymmetry, it was only a bell boot.
But no worries, hilary clayton and some equine study in Denmark think it's a valid way to fix amatuer riders asymmetrical horses.
Re: One bell boot
Posted: Wed Sep 04, 2019 11:01 am
by Tsavo
This is very interesting.
I wonder about the following:
1. how long the new-found symmetry in the muscle activity measurements lasts after the treatment ends with their ammy riders
2. does the measured muscle activity actually relate to correct movement/strengthening of the weak limb or is it due to abnormal movement in response to the bell boot?
3. how believable is it that 8 random ammy horses are symmetrical in response to anything? (bias, precision of the measurement)
Clayton appears to have done some good work but I don't think much of it has been repeated. It has been shown that relatively few studies are able to be repeated with the same results. Only a handful of "landmark" medical studies have been successfully replicated. And of course a majority of published research results are almost certainly false.
Re: One bell boot
Posted: Wed Sep 04, 2019 1:41 pm
by piedmontfields
The comments and questions are interesting. From The Horse article, I was assuming that this worked much like a body band to bring a bit of proprioception to that leg/body part. However, from human work with bands, etc. I know that it is easy to over do this and thought that more selective use of a boot/tape would be more appropriate. I'm curious to hear from others.
In only a slightly related note, I recently went through the "huh, my horse is having some trouble turning left---what could be going on." Then her teeth were done (she is on a 6 month schedule) with particular work on the left side and viola, the problem went away.
Re: One bell boot
Posted: Wed Sep 04, 2019 2:10 pm
by StraightForward
As you know, I'm bringing Annabelle back into work, and she is physically a mess. The vet said we could do a few minutes a day of in-hand lateral work, and the first few days, she was really dragging her RH. It would draw arcs in the sand as she did TOF, and not much better for SI. I of course used the whip to tap her and get her lifting it, but also have been putting just one sports medicine boot on her RH for the tack walking, thinking this same concept as the bell boot might work. She is already picking that leg up much better. I don't think it will make a horse even in spite of an asymmetric rider, because there will still be crookedness, even if the horse is reminded of the foot by the feeling of the boot. We know the root of the problem, so if this is another tool to help fix it, then I will use it.
I guess I don't see the comparison to saddle seat because then is that the effect that putting on two bell boots will have?
Re: One bell boot
Posted: Wed Sep 04, 2019 2:43 pm
by Ryeissa
Chisamba wrote:https://thehorse.com/178062/crooked-horse-under-saddle-a-single-bell-boot-can-help/
Hilary clayton used a chain, but dont worry, so long as it is significant enough for the horse to be aware its there, a bell boot will work.
Is your horses hock sore, dont fix the hock, one bell boot will cure that.
Is your horse weak in the hip. One bell boot
Is your riding symmetric, one bell boot
Does your horses sore tooth cause asymmetry...one bell boot.
No, no dont worry , it's not legitimizing unethical saddleseat techniques, it's only a bell boot. But if one bell boot doesn't work because you have not addressed the underlying issue, or natural asymmetry through training, it was only a bell boot.
And hey, if you horse becomes sore because there was a pain or strength issue causing the asymmetry, it was only a bell boot.
But no worries, hilary clayton and some equine study in Denmark think it's a valid way to fix amatuer riders asymmetrical horses.
this is a well studied medical term, perhaps do some more reading. I liken it to walking over poles to help a horse understand where his legs are or tapping with the whip. I am supportive of new things and hey, it's painless and free.
Re: One bell boot
Posted: Wed Sep 04, 2019 4:08 pm
by Sue B
One bell boot is the same technique used in rehab medicine for say, ankle sprains. The ankle sleeve does not and will not prevent the ankle from rolling, BUT it will provide an immediate sensory feedback, reminding the body to hurry up and stabilize said ankle before more damage is done. It's simply another means of training or retraining the body to use a limb more effectively.
Re: One bell boot
Posted: Wed Sep 04, 2019 4:27 pm
by Tsavo
I think if they had a control group that were put in training with an FEI trainer the conclusions might be different.
Re: One bell boot
Posted: Wed Sep 04, 2019 5:24 pm
by Ryeissa
Tsavo wrote:I think if they had a control group that were put in training with an FEI trainer the conclusions might be different.
I believe the control in this study was the other leg, wasn't it? Its such a short article I can't gather much.
Re: One bell boot
Posted: Wed Sep 04, 2019 7:43 pm
by Dresseur
My thoughts are this, I feel like the lateral movements are the way to address asymmetry and imbalances in one hind vs another. That being said, I think that most amateurs aren't able to do the exercises on their own (without direct supervision of a pro) in order to really act as physical therapist to the horse. That's why (I forget the vet's name, will add when I remember) developed a system of caveletti work to help ammy's address rein lameness.It's because he felt that they were not equipped to feel or "rehab" that in the way that a professional was able to. So, I think that adding a small bell boot on one foot could be useful for a time, but I question long term results if the horses are still ridden in an asymmetric way.
In other words, fix your riding to fix the horse.
Re: One bell boot
Posted: Wed Sep 04, 2019 7:59 pm
by Ponichiwa
Agree with the prevailing winds here, but will also add that external aids like this (and like the belly bands/KT tape/etc.) don't ever offer release for the horse, and you can accidentally work yourself into a worse injury if you're not cautious.
Re: One bell boot
Posted: Wed Sep 04, 2019 9:18 pm
by Chisamba
FYI
I'm staying away from ddbb for the moment. My nephew had a bad fall mountain biking. He is was unconscious with frontal lobe bleeding and fractured eye orbits. They put him in a medically induced coma and on a ventilator. Prognosis not yet known. He is 27. My hubby and his sister, ( Matt's mother, ) are intensely anxious. I'm trying to be the strong one. My son is stressed.
I'll try get back to this eventually
Re: One bell boot
Posted: Wed Sep 04, 2019 9:32 pm
by musical comedy
Ryeissa wrote: Its such a short article I can't gather much.
Here's the detailed research article.
https://eqveterinary.com/wp-content/upl ... bjects.pdf
Re: One bell boot
Posted: Thu Sep 05, 2019 3:01 am
by StraightForward
Jingles for your nephew, Chisamba!
Re: One bell boot
Posted: Thu Sep 05, 2019 10:36 am
by Tsavo
Best regards for your nephew, Chisamba.
MC, thanks for posting the article. I will need to take some time to review the article.
Re: One bell boot
Posted: Thu Sep 05, 2019 11:58 am
by Ryeissa
great, thanks.
It does appear the L and R were the treatment and controls
Interesting about the AMG technology- very cool! I think this a definite step in the right direction for vet science.
Re: One bell boot
Posted: Thu Sep 05, 2019 12:10 pm
by Tsavo
Their own results negate the opposite leg as a control.
Ping ponging precludes using the opposite leg as a control.
Re: One bell boot
Posted: Thu Sep 05, 2019 12:17 pm
by Ryeissa
Tsavo wrote:Their own results negate the opposite leg as a control.
Ping ponging precludes using the opposite leg as a control.
I didn't see this in the scientific article. They had a good design if you ask me. I should also explain that I am a scientist and do research as my job.
. The regimen of 60 minutes use a single lightweight bell boot every 3 days for a period of 6 weeks applied to the
weakest limb, that is to say the one that is least engaged has a
significant and positive effect on equine hind limb imbalance.
Whether this corrective change induced through proprioceptive
activation can be maintained permanently now remains to be
established.
Re: One bell boot
Posted: Thu Sep 05, 2019 2:20 pm
by Tsavo
Think about what a control is supposed to be.
Re: One bell boot
Posted: Thu Sep 05, 2019 4:56 pm
by Ryeissa
Tsavo wrote:Think about what a control is supposed to be.
what do you think a control is?
Re: One bell boot
Posted: Thu Sep 05, 2019 5:30 pm
by Tsavo
Ryeissa wrote:Tsavo wrote:Think about what a control is supposed to be.
what do you think a control is?
I am asking you.
Re: One bell boot
Posted: Thu Sep 05, 2019 5:34 pm
by StraightForward
Obviously a better control would be horses with similar asymmetries under the same work, without the bell boot.
Re: One bell boot
Posted: Thu Sep 05, 2019 8:43 pm
by Ryeissa
StraightForward wrote:Obviously a better control would be horses with similar asymmetries under the same work, without the bell boot.
Yes. This.... But there is still an internal control here which is valuable.
Re: One bell boot
Posted: Thu Sep 05, 2019 10:19 pm
by Abby Kogler
I don't see that Dr. Clayton or the study supposes that this one bell boot approach will solve every horse that is uneven, or implies that other reasons leading to unevenness should be ignored. Its an interesting study.
Re: One bell boot
Posted: Thu Sep 05, 2019 10:21 pm
by Ryeissa
Abby Kogler wrote:I don't see that Dr. Clayton or the study supposes that this one bell boot approach will solve every horse that is uneven, or implies that other reasons leading to unevenness should be ignored. Its an interesting study.
Its from the Netherlands and sponsored by a grant from Pakistan. I don't think its Dr Clayton....?
Re: One bell boot
Posted: Thu Sep 05, 2019 10:31 pm
by Dresseur
It’s not. She’s been retired for a while now.
Re: One bell boot
Posted: Thu Sep 05, 2019 10:41 pm
by Abby Kogler
Oops, my mistake! Thanks. I was misled by Chisamba referencing the chain and by Tsavos referencing her.
I don't think she is retired though..? She just spoke in Jan at our CDS Annual meeting with some interesting research re poll height and other topics.
Re: One bell boot
Posted: Thu Sep 05, 2019 10:53 pm
by Ryeissa
Abby Kogler wrote:Oops, my mistake! Thanks. I was misled by Chisamba referencing the chain and by Tsavos referencing her.
I don't think she is retired though..? She just spoke in Jan at our CDS Annual meeting with some interesting research re poll height and other topics.
Nice! She might be retired from research and not giving lectures. I'm sure she could make some money doing invited speaking engagements??
Re: One bell boot
Posted: Fri Sep 06, 2019 1:24 am
by Tsavo
There seems to be a data selection issue also. Very curious.
Re: One bell boot
Posted: Fri Sep 06, 2019 1:26 am
by Tsavo
Would have LOVED LOVED LOVED to see them use a Lameness Locator.
Re: One bell boot
Posted: Fri Sep 06, 2019 1:30 am
by Tsavo
Ryeissa wrote:Tsavo wrote:Their own results negate the opposite leg as a control.
Ping ponging precludes using the opposite leg as a control.
I didn't see this in the scientific article. They had a good design if you ask me.
They documented ping ponging.
Re: One bell boot
Posted: Fri Sep 06, 2019 1:34 am
by Tsavo
They ADMIT they had no controls...
On a critical note, no controls were incorporated in this study,
making the findings potentially speculative, in that one could argue
that corrective changes in balance may well have occurred over
time without any form of intervention.
Also, I think there is an issue of were these horses unilaterally weak or unilaterally stiff? That might matter.