Canter - Suppling or Strenthening or ???

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Canter - Suppling or Strenthening or ???

Postby musical comedy » Fri Sep 27, 2019 10:51 am

My trainer does not include canterining in the warmup. When asked why not, I was told because the trot is the suppling gait. I tell him that my understanding is that the canter loosens the back and the trot is always better after a canter. Of course, he doesn't want to believe that, so conversation ends. My experience is that all my horses loosen up with canter. Because canter is unilateral it's easier for the horse to supple up in this gait than trot which is bilateral. What do you all think?

Now, is canter a strengthening gait and what is even meant by that. My AA friend was just telling me that she is doing a lot of cantering to build fitness. I can't argue that point, because I really don't know if canter builds fitness. She mentions cardio fitness. My understanding is that cardio fitness is the easiest to get. And really, do we need all that much cardio fitness for dressage work? I am more concerned with muscular fitness and fitness of the soft tissue. Which gait is best for that?

Like most of you, I used to read a lot and I have a boatload of articles on training. Of course, there are so many different opinions from 'experts' it's hard to know who to believe. One I recall saying that trot is the tearing down gait and canter is most economical.

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Re: Canter - Suppling or Strenthening or ???

Postby Chisamba » Fri Sep 27, 2019 11:20 am

In my experience, so limited to one generation and a hundred or so horses, horses with short tight backs warm up better in canter, horses with running forward trot warm up better slower, horses with swinging long slow trots do better if fast trotted in warm up,

Of course assuming there is no pain or health reason to do things differently.

But. I do about 10 minutes of walk first, no matter what

Some authors have said that even a poor canter improves the horse, but only a good trot does.

So if your horse is stiff, counter flexed and hollow, trotting will only improve the horse once you have changed those things, but even a stuff counterflexed hollow canter loosens the back, builds strength and fitness.

So if you accept that theory, canter is the better warm up. In my experience I am inclined to accept this theory.

Interesting topic. thanks

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Re: Canter - Suppling or Strenthening or ???

Postby demi » Fri Sep 27, 2019 11:36 am

My horse has muscled up in the last year and she is naturally muscled like her QH dam. She also has a short back. I always do 10 minutes of walk and used to start with trot right after the 10 minute walk. In the last 6 months, or so, she wants to go right into canter after the walk, even though I ask for trot. Now I just go ahead and ask for canter right after the walk. I think she loosens up better with canter because when we go back to trot, it’s relaxed enough that she snorts in rythym.

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Re: Canter - Suppling or Strenthening or ???

Postby blob » Fri Sep 27, 2019 12:28 pm

This is all very interesting.

I've also heard before that the trot is not as economical as the canter and that it's the most likely to cause wear/tear on joints and limbs, especially if done incorrectly. But of course, nearly every warm up I've ever done has included trot.

I do agree that how much I NEED the canter in warm-up depends on the horse. With MM who is a mustang and built similarly to an old school morgan, not only is the canter critical in the warm-up, but it does act as a suppling gait--though differently than the trot. The trot seems to supple better laterally, while the canter supples by bringing the back up and connecting the hind end. Until we do some big open canter to warm-up, we don't have particularly good trot work.

I've also had some OTTBs who come out so hot and ready to go that forget doing any kind of productive work until you've given them a chance to canter around a bit to settle them down. So, again these horses have really NEEDED canter in the warm up.

With RP, I don't canter in the warm up. He is very sensitive, but not necessarily hot or go go go out the gate. And can get flustered easily. If he doesn't have lots of good easy trotting with changes of bend, frame, and tempo, he'll be tight and excitable in the canter and it'll be much harder to settle him back down in the trot after.

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Re: Canter - Suppling or Strenthening or ???

Postby piedmontfields » Fri Sep 27, 2019 1:25 pm

MC, I have had instructors who insisted on warming up in trot, including lateral work, before canter. I could make this work with some horses, but not with my current horse (tight, short back). The asymmetry of canter seems to help her let go in the back. When I combine canter with lots of trot transitions, we have the most efficient and effective warmup.

Not to bring de Kunffy up to agitate anyone, but I recall him in one book stating that "the horse lives at canter" or some such. I think his point was that horses enjoy cantering for the physical feelings it gives them. Also, many older horse elect the canter over the trot when they need to move from one area to another at liberty.

When my horse gets really tight or nervous, I use the canter to help her breathe and let go into relaxation. In trot she will just get tighter and tighter + she less adjustable in frame and length of stride than in canter. We re-visited this tactic the other night when the cattle near our xc field were running about and crying---making my not exactly a bull-fighting horse quite panicky. After 10+ minutes of canter with some c-t-c, she was back to being a happy mare.

On another note without any conclusions, it is interesting that endurance riders will elect to do more miles in trot or canter, depending on their particular horse's preferences and abilities. It is not a fixed choice.

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Re: Canter - Suppling or Strenthening or ???

Postby blob » Fri Sep 27, 2019 1:37 pm

piedmontfields wrote:Not to bring de Kunffy up to agitate anyone, but I recall him in one book stating that "the horse lives at canter" or some such. I think his point was that horses enjoy cantering for the physical feelings it gives them. Also, many older horse elect the canter over the trot when they need to move from one area to another at liberty.


When I got MM, she was very comfortable walking and cantering, whereas her trot was certainly her worst gait. Someone who has experience with a LOT of mustangs mentioned that this was pretty common. Horses in wild are either walking to conserve energy, or they're cantering to cover long distances efficiently/get away. There is almost no reason for a horse out on its own to trot. That doesn't mean they don't do it, but just that it is not ever a necessity like the other two.

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Re: Canter - Suppling or Strenthening or ???

Postby musical comedy » Fri Sep 27, 2019 1:38 pm

blob wrote:With RP, I don't canter in the warm up. He is very sensitive, but not necessarily hot or go go go out the gate. And can get flustered easily. If he doesn't have lots of good easy trotting with changes of bend, frame, and tempo, he'll be tight and excitable in the canter and it'll be much harder to settle him back down in the trot after.

This is a catch 22 for my mare. The trot definitely gets better after canter, but the canter also tends to excite and result in some tension.

I think the trot work helps with getting the connection, bending ,etc. If you don't have this before starting canter, I think it makes for more difficulty. Again, it depends on the horse. With mine, I need to make sure she is pretty even in both reins before I canter, because the canter is the gait that is more difficult for me with this mare.

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Re: Canter - Suppling or Strenthening or ???

Postby Ryeissa » Fri Sep 27, 2019 3:41 pm

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Re: Canter - Suppling or Strenthening or ???

Postby piedmontfields » Fri Sep 27, 2019 4:42 pm

I was thinking that my mare will let me "get in there" and do more things* in a canter vs. a trot when she is tense. Then I was thinking about why that is...could just be her, or it could be that the canter has a lot of natural momentum, thanks to the catapulting action of the gait, which makes it easy to keep it going even when I'm messing with her....

*aka, move her around laterally, straighten her, counterbend her, change the stride length, etc.

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Re: Canter - Suppling or Strenthening or ???

Postby blob » Fri Sep 27, 2019 5:32 pm

That's an interesting point, Piedmontfields.

Another thing I thought about is that with MM I can spend a lot of time focusing on canter work only and it improves the trot. Whereas if I were to do rides that just focused on the trot, it would not improve the canter.

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Re: Canter - Suppling or Strenthening or ???

Postby Ryeissa » Fri Sep 27, 2019 6:17 pm

blob wrote:That's an interesting point, Piedmontfields.

Another thing I thought about is that with MM I can spend a lot of time focusing on canter work only and it improves the trot. Whereas if I were to do rides that just focused on the trot, it would not improve the canter.


Hmm....I can see that.....I have found the (opposite) that trot quality directly improves my canter quality, but it might really depend on that horse and situation.

My horse tends to get speedy and hot in the canter so the "manners" at the walk and trot are the exact same expectations at the canter so perhaps this is a very basic thing that carries more readily through to the gaits as it's not specific to a "trot problem" or "canter problem". hard to say though, there is of course the need to just suck it up and go through that awkward "all over the place stage" at all gaits.

My horse is harder to "let me work on him" in the canter, but he loves to canter and gets "caught up in the fun". Not in a bad way, just enjoying the moment, yet mamma is still riding :lol:

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Re: Canter - Suppling or Strenthening or ???

Postby Tanga » Fri Sep 27, 2019 6:53 pm

Oooh. Another good topic. A long time ago I sort of started my habit in warming up the horses. Always a nice long walk even in pasture. I used to have to trail ride to the arena anyway. Because I used to always have hot at least half TB's (which are different than hot warmbloods) I start with some posting trot, but always go into the canter from there. I think it allows them to really go over the back in a way the trot doesn't allow as well as lets the energy out without fighting. I used to have a super hot warmblood, technically 3/4ths TB, and sometimes we would have to gallop up some steep hills a couple of times before she was ready to settle and work.

So, these days, with my warmbloods, ideally it's at least short trail ride, trot gradually moving very forward and round, and then canter very round and moving into more forward. In both the trot and canter I tend to do figure eights so it is also pretty much always bending. As they warm up in the canter, I ask for more from behind and allow them to come up as they want to so that the carriage becomes higher from their own desire rather than my hands. When I feel they are warmed up, then I continue to work in the canter. The last thing I do is sitting trot work because I think it is hard on their back and I want to make sure 100% they are good. (Maybe because even though I am not necessarily overweight, I am a big person and weigh a lot, and used to always have smaller horses. Mine aren't even that big now.)

As for strengthening, I think it is easier to do in the canter, but I do both. The "easy" way to do so much of the strengthening work is trail and hills. For me, conditioning and strengthening is my number one priority as I think it is the key to any goal I have and the answer to most problems. In the arena, there are so many great exercises for strengthening. In the canter I love any variation of on the spot to extended and back and forth--great for the back and getting them under and impulsion. For a more suppling one, I do a lot of half pass, leg yield, half pass, leg yield. In the trot, it's basically the same thing.

I am really trying to keep my mind focused that all of this is from behind and getting the up and carriage always comes from coming through and sitting from behind. Holding and pulling with the hands is "easy," but never feels comfortable for me, and I seem to ride with a much lighter contact than a lot of people. I have strong hands, but I just cannot clamp and hold.

I think dressage is all about this. I want my horses to be like high level ballet dancers who are in the best shape they can be. I always do two rides at shows, and I've got them at FEI now. People know me so have stopped commenting, but I used to get a lot of how I can do that. My horses are in such good shape sometimes I need the first ride to settle them. Whatever we do at a show is the least amount of work they almost ever do. (Me, that's another issue!) I did come to an interesting realization at the champs. that you can never have enough impulsion and I need to change my mindset about warming them up for shows. I usually just get them relaxed and warmed up at shows, but don't push them. I think I need to push them more and get more IMPULSION! Watching Hilda warm up next to me really getting the horses WAY impulsed in the W/U made me think I'm focused to much on relaxation and suppleness.

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Re: Canter - Suppling or Strenthening or ???

Postby Moutaineer » Fri Sep 27, 2019 7:25 pm

While I think it depends on the horse greatly, It makes a huge difference to Laddie to have a loosening canter in the warm up phase of our ride, he doesn't tend to get overexcited by it unless it's one of those days, it just gets him looser in his back, more focused and more able to step under himself. He's an older guy, though, so that makes a difference.

We always start with a lot of walk work, at least 10-15 minutes--starting with a nice forward march and then working on lateral stuff to get him supple and listening, then we'll do a short trot session just to check soundness and sanity--some lateral work, but not much at this point, then we'll do a few minutes of very simple canter in each direction, some more trot to check out how supple and responsive we are, a walk break, then we move on to the project of the day, whatever we are focusing on, but always interspersed with something at a different gait to refresh the mind and body.

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Re: Canter - Suppling or Strenthening or ???

Postby Linden » Sat Sep 28, 2019 1:38 am

musical comedy wrote:My trainer does not include canterining in the warmup. When asked why not, I was told because the trot is the suppling gait. I tell him that my understanding is that the canter loosens the back and the trot is always better after a canter. Of course, he doesn't want to believe that, so conversation ends. ....

...Like most of you, I used to read a lot and I have a boatload of articles on training. Of course, there are so many different opinions from 'experts' it's hard to know who to believe.


Why did you hire a trainer who you don't believe is doing things 'properly' in your opinion? If you believe you know better than your trainer, enough to back-talk them in your lessons, write condescendingly on a public forum, and even look for advice that coincides with your own beliefs from an AA instead, then I find it utterly confusing why you keep this trainer around.
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Re: Canter - Suppling or Strenthening or ???

Postby Chisamba » Sat Sep 28, 2019 11:21 am

Linden wrote:
musical comedy wrote:My trainer does not include canterining in the warmup. When asked why not, I was told because the trot is the suppling gait. I tell him that my understanding is that the canter loosens the back and the trot is always better after a canter. Of course, he doesn't want to believe that, so conversation ends. ....

...Like most of you, I used to read a lot and I have a boatload of articles on training. Of course, there are so many different opinions from 'experts' it's hard to know who to believe.


Why did you hire a trainer who you don't believe is doing things 'properly' in your opinion? If you believe you know better than your trainer, enough to back-talk them in your lessons, write condescendingly on a public forum, and even look for advice that coincides with your own beliefs from an AA instead, then I find it utterly confusing why you keep this trainer around.


Generally I try to accept that people can respond to threads the way they want, even if its nasty, but this is purely personal and really adds nothing to what has been an interesting conversation.

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Re: Canter - Suppling or Strenthening or ???

Postby Josette » Sat Sep 28, 2019 12:14 pm

Like many others mentioned - I take a long time walking trails before any ring work followed by lateral work at walk while it is forward. IMO the horse and situation seems to determine the best approach as an individual warmup. My very laid back TB did best with canter at the start. My Connemara who can be rather hot does better with the long trail walks and trot before canter to keep him focused and relaxed. His canter work in the past was off to the races - fast and tense. I had to figure out what worked best for his temperament and sometimes monkey brain.

Regarding fitness - years ago long trails rides on mixed terrain with lots of hills kept my horses very fit IMO. Very easy to do a weekend hunter or trail pace without getting tired. Sadly trail bikers have taken over the local trails and now it is simply too dangerous for horseback riders.

BTW - I think a student is allowed to ask a trainer questions and carry on a dialog for learning purposes. Then an informed decision can be made if that trainer is suitable to continue working with. Certainly no harm in asking questions to get clarification. :roll:

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Re: Canter - Suppling or Strenthening or ???

Postby Ryeissa » Sat Sep 28, 2019 1:16 pm

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Re: Canter - Suppling or Strenthening or ???

Postby kande50 » Sat Sep 28, 2019 1:21 pm

Linden wrote:Why did you hire a trainer who you don't believe is doing things 'properly' in your opinion? If you believe you know better than your trainer, enough to back-talk them in your lessons, write condescendingly on a public forum, and even look for advice that coincides with your own beliefs from an AA instead, then I find it utterly confusing why you keep this trainer around.


Maybe because trainers can be right about some things, or even right about a lot of things, but dead wrong about others?

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Re: Canter - Suppling or Strenthening or ???

Postby exvet » Sat Sep 28, 2019 1:54 pm

I honestly think it depends on the individual horse and genetics. When ridden properly and with conditioning in mind (exercise sets with rest periods in between) I think either gait, trot or canter, can be suppling and/or strengthening. I have a breed that has been developed to be able to trot for hours on end. It is their energy conserving gait. Do they get tense or hot in this gait, absolutely, they can; but, it is also the gait they manage to pull a lot of weight if need be. That being said there is definitely a larger number of the breed where canter is not their 'go to' gait and can be difficult and cause lots of anxiety for them, at least in the beginning. I still find both gaits useful to supple and strengthen them if done 'in sets' and if forward is the focus as opposed to speed. I think it's also key to ride them in a manner that doesn't impede their balance or perhaps better put, shows them how to properly balance and straighten themselves - only then suppling and strengthening can really be achieved over time. I think it's a combination of a horse's preference in gaits, response to challenges and a rider's ability as to which gait will achieve 'more'.

My mustang is a master at energy conservation yet he has one of the best walks I've seen in terms of dressage. He also has a trot that is very nice with an over reaching stride and can do it for hours as well. Canter is not his favorite gait and there better be a purpose to it (such as get away from the cougar) otherwise 'it's work.' I suspect my Navajo mustang has either mostly morgan or draft in his genetics which may have a lot to do with his 'tendencies'.

BTW can we give Linden a break? She is asking a question that I could easily see MC asking if the tables were turned. I think MC is more than capable of explaining her position too, not that she should feel it necessary in this crowd. Both are experienced riders. I've seen Linden ride, known her in person and think she actually has a very academic question because she has taught lessons, trained for others and it's a perspective that begs the question in some respects. Still MC, I'm sure, is going with the trainer she feels is the best fit for the circumstances before her. I too have ridden with people that I respected but didn't agree with every single one of their theories.

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Re: Canter - Suppling or Strenthening or ???

Postby Linden » Sat Sep 28, 2019 5:27 pm

Sorry for the perceived snarkiness, it came across a lot less inquisitive than I had intended..

I just would never, ever pay my hard-earned money to a person that I honestly believe knows less than I do about the basics of training, let alone one whom I trust less than an AA. There are so many trainers out there, I would have found one that compliments my own philosophies and beliefs as soon as I started questioning my original trainer's experience and knowledge.

Just IMHO

And I warm up in canter often, but every warm up routine depends on the horse.
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Re: Canter - Suppling or Strenthening or ???

Postby Tanga » Sat Sep 28, 2019 7:51 pm

In response to Linden's honest reply, I see where you're coming from, but I understand.

I live in one of the areas with tons and tons of trainers with lots of "cred." I can't think of one who has actually done more than I have. But, I can't watch myself and kick my own butt by giving myself commentary. So, when I need help, I have to find someone who knows less in at least some way. I get help when and where I can. I ask everyone.

This means not listening to some advice. You have to take what you can from some people. And in trying their advice, sometimes you learn a lot by what does not work.

I will not give names, but I had a clinic with one of the top people in the USDF. As clinics go, and as makes sense to anyone who clinics a lot, the clinicians have a focus that they work with everyone on. Well the focus of hold the reins shorter and tighter no matter what and forward and impulsion no matter what just about flipped my horse out. I did what the clinician said to the best of my ability, and I also tried it on my other horse, who started flipping out. So I stopped. But in trying it, I came to a new level of learning that in my own way, I need to find way more impulsion and lightness (carriage) but without all of the tightness and tense.

So, I disagree there are so many trainers out there, let alone with philosophies and beliefs that compliment mine. I do see how you can and have to ride with someone you disagree with to get help, and it can work.

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Re: Canter - Suppling or Strenthening or ???

Postby Linden » Sat Sep 28, 2019 8:52 pm

Maybe my perspective is biased because I have always had coaches who were so fantastic I trusted them completely and had no reason to ever second guess them. Lucky I guess
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Re: Canter - Suppling or Strenthening or ???

Postby Ryeissa » Sat Sep 28, 2019 9:21 pm

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Re: Canter - Suppling or Strenthening or ???

Postby blob » Sat Sep 28, 2019 10:02 pm

Linden wrote:Maybe my perspective is biased because I have always had coaches who were so fantastic I trusted them completely and had no reason to ever second guess them. Lucky I guess


It's interesting because while I have trusted all of my trainers completely, I have not always agreed with them (as an adult). I trust them completely to progress my riding and help me be a better trainer for my horse. But that doesn't mean everything they ask me do always works for me and my horse. I think I also value as an adult, having trainers I can have the conversation with--that I can ask why, offer what I have felt and experienced, and share if something they have instructed me to do doesn't seem to be working. I don't think of it as back-talking or doubting, I consider it part of the three of us finding the best way forward.

Recently I had a situation where my trainer had asked me to take a different approach with MM to certain aspect of our work. It was something that made sense to me. But it didn't work for us. I don't know if it's that it didn't work for MM or if I was unable to execute it properly. But either way, it was clear that it wasn't right for the combination for me riding MM. On our next lesson I was able to share that the new approach wasn't working, we had a dialog about what I was feeling and doing and together we were able to find a better path forward. This is one of the things I value most about my current trainer.

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Re: Canter - Suppling or Strenthening or ???

Postby Chisamba » Sat Sep 28, 2019 10:31 pm

If you dont know an AA you can admire, it doesn't mean they dont exist. I know and know of a few AA who ride routinely in the highest levels . Alice Tarjan for example. I would be interested in he opinion on almost anything equine. She rides a pretty nice mare and lives in Oldwick, so just a thought here.

Second thought. Trainers are not omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent. Discussing a thought that came up in a lesson is not sacrilege.

the cool girls have decided to rap my knuckles, for speaking up for someone . Ya. Thank you.

You know what I recommend. Foe me. Then you do not have to tolerate my version of fairness. Because you know what, I think my response was fair and measured considering the terms like "back talk" and " condescending ". A grown up professional human, who is paying some one , in other words hiring them, asking a question in a lesson is not backtalk. If a plumber was fixing something in my home I would expect them to extend the courtesy of answering any question I asked.

Now since the cool kids have chosen to double team me in several threads, I shall do what I recommended myself.

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Re: Canter - Suppling or Strenthening or ???

Postby blob » Sat Sep 28, 2019 10:34 pm

Chisamba wrote: I think my response was fair and measured considering the terms like "back talk" and " condescending ". A grown up professional human, who is paying some one , in other words hiring them, asking a question in a lesson is not backtalk. If a plumber was fixing something in my home I would expect them to extend the courtesy of answering any question I asked.


I agree that your response was measured and fair and appropriate. And I appreciate that Linden acknowledged that the tone of her post might have come off differently than she intended.

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Re: Canter - Suppling or Strenthening or ???

Postby piedmontfields » Sat Sep 28, 2019 10:52 pm

Returning to the canter warm-up, I was thinking more about this topic during my rides this week. One evening, it rained over an inch just before I rode. I decided to ride in the arena, as it is fairly well drained, but it was still a bit gloopy in some spots. So I was very deliberate with a walk warm-up, then lateral walk work, then walk-trot-walk-trot, then some bending patterns in trot. I was thinking, wow, it is way easier to "test" the reactions in trot warm-up than canter. Like evenness in the reins, and even reactions to both sit bones and both legs. But my mare still felt sticky. I did a little canter in the better part of the ring and then things changed for the better in her back.

Good trainers usually have a reason for what they teach...but as others have said, often we have to parse that with our local situation (horse)!

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Re: Canter - Suppling or Strenthening or ???

Postby blob » Sat Sep 28, 2019 11:02 pm

exvet wrote:
My mustang is a master at energy conservation yet he has one of the best walks I've seen in terms of dressage. He also has a trot that is very nice with an over reaching stride and can do it for hours as well. Canter is not his favorite gait and there better be a purpose to it (such as get away from the cougar) otherwise 'it's work.' I suspect my Navajo mustang has either mostly morgan or draft in his genetics which may have a lot to do with his 'tendencies'.


Interesting the differences in our two mustangs. MM is also very energy efficient and has a great walk. But her trot is very much her worst gait. I mentioned this already, but someone told me that she thought this was common of mustangs--they are either walking to conserve or cantering to be efficient, the need to trot might not be very frequent, which made sense to me. But interesting to hear your guy seems the opposite. For MM it has taken a long time to develop a decent trot, but her canter has always been her better gait, though when she was earlier in her training the canter was also less malleable than the trot. She was so balanced and confident in the canter that she didn't "need" my help or support the same way she did in the trot.

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Re: Canter - Suppling or Strenthening or ???

Postby Tanga » Sun Sep 29, 2019 12:50 am

Just to get back to the "great trainers" thing, I guess it's where you come from. I have never had any kind of access to them because I never had any kind of money. I had to get what knowledge I can here and there and mostly do it on my own. I honestly don't even understand the concept where people get someone to help them every week, let alone a couple of times a week, let alone have someone train your horses for you. So, it probably took me a lot longer to get anywhere than anyone else, and I probably made even more mistakes. We all have paths.

But, I do what I can. I get help from wherever I can. I just was talking to the eventing person at the barn who doesn't ride near the level of dressage I do, but she can ride horses, and if I tell her what I'm looking for, she can tell me what she sees. We're going to play quid pro quo and meet up and help each other. Let's see how that works. Like I said, I think most people who have been around horses for awhile and have any kind of eye can take what they've heard and seen and apply it in a way to be helpful to many people, as CdK does.

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Re: Canter - Suppling or Strenthening or ???

Postby Linden » Sun Sep 29, 2019 2:56 am

Tanga wrote:Just to get back to the "great trainers" thing, I guess it's where you come from. I have never had any kind of access to them because I never had any kind of money. I had to get what knowledge I can here and there and mostly do it on my own. I honestly don't even understand the concept where people get someone to help them every week, let alone a couple of times a week, let alone have someone train your horses for you.


In all honesty I have never paid a single dime for a lesson in my life, not to anyone. I bought my first horse 18 months ago, 23 years after I started out in the horse world.

(I was a working student my whole life, to several trainers simultaneously, and never had the money for my own horse, let alone lessons. I just got lessons on my coaches' horses, or their clients' horses when I was good enough to be an assistant trainer under watchful guidance. So, it's not about money IMHO)
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Re: Canter - Suppling or Strenthening or ???

Postby Tanga » Sun Sep 29, 2019 3:16 am

Linden wrote:
Tanga wrote:Just to get back to the "great trainers" thing, I guess it's where you come from. I have never had any kind of access to them because I never had any kind of money. I had to get what knowledge I can here and there and mostly do it on my own. I honestly don't even understand the concept where people get someone to help them every week, let alone a couple of times a week, let alone have someone train your horses for you.


In all honesty I have never paid a single dime for a lesson in my life, not to anyone. I bought my first horse 18 months ago, 23 years after I started out in the horse world.

(I was a working student my whole life, to several trainers simultaneously, and never had the money for my own horse, let alone lessons. I just got lessons on my coaches' horses, or their clients' horses when I was good enough to be an assistant trainer under watchful guidance. So, it's not about money IMHO)


So you've had access to great trainers because you were working for them and had that kind of life? (Which is a hard one.) That is a way to do it, but makes any other kind of life pretty difficult. I don't think most people can/will do that. I did it for a little while, but doing that for Torrance Fleischman just about killed me.

In the scope of this conversation, that doesn't work for most people who are not going to make horses a job, or not permanently. In respect to getting lessons and help from people, it takes money to have your pick of great help. Otherwise, you make do.

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Re: Canter - Suppling or Strenthening or ???

Postby Linden » Sun Sep 29, 2019 3:32 am

Tanga wrote:
Linden wrote:
Tanga wrote:Just to get back to the "great trainers" thing, I guess it's where you come from. I have never had any kind of access to them because I never had any kind of money. I had to get what knowledge I can here and there and mostly do it on my own. I honestly don't even understand the concept where people get someone to help them every week, let alone a couple of times a week, let alone have someone train your horses for you.


In all honesty I have never paid a single dime for a lesson in my life, not to anyone. I bought my first horse 18 months ago, 23 years after I started out in the horse world.

(I was a working student my whole life, to several trainers simultaneously, and never had the money for my own horse, let alone lessons. I just got lessons on my coaches' horses, or their clients' horses when I was good enough to be an assistant trainer under watchful guidance. So, it's not about money IMHO)


So you've had access to great trainers because you were working for them and had that kind of life? (Which is a hard one.) That is a way to do it, but makes any other kind of life pretty difficult. I don't think most people can/will do that. I did it for a little while, but doing that for Torrance Fleischman just about killed me.

In the scope of this conversation, that doesn't work for most people who are not going to make horses a job, or not permanently. In respect to getting lessons and help from people, it takes money to have your pick of great help. Otherwise, you make do.


You're absolutely right. I apologize for posting.
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Re: Canter - Suppling or Strenthening or ???

Postby exvet » Sun Sep 29, 2019 5:08 am

Linden, there is no need for an apology other than to perhaps clarify intent for those who need it. You have a valued perspective that not all are privy to. I think the question was fair and have the benefit of having met you in person so I didn't jump to the conclusions others did but had I not known you I'm sure I would. The point is that your question was fair. Resources are precious to all of us. They may differ in amount or priority but we shouldn't waste them regardless. I also think that when you own the beast you're riding there is a higher ante in 'price' because not only are you paying for a service to be taught, you are investing in a trust that they keep your horse in the same 'respect' you do. Having lived in a dressage desert in my past and making do with what's available I have definitely ridden with someone well respected, talented and accomplished but not someone who shared the same knowledge of 'best interest of the horse.' Still I rode with her because I had specific goals and I simply decided that I would utilize what I felt helped us progress and discarded or didn't follow what I felt could be of detriment of the horse. My perspective came from my veterinary career coupled with my many years and miles on horse back as a horsewoman. Her perspective that I valued was from her dressage experience. I don't think that's unique but I also realize that we all come from different walks of life. I sincerely hope you'll continue to contribute to the conversation. As someone else pointed out, you're very accomplished and we can all benefit from each other's experience.

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Re: Canter - Suppling or Strenthening or ???

Postby Tanga » Sun Sep 29, 2019 5:55 am

Linden--I am not being snarky or rude in any way, nor did I take anything you said as such to anyone, I was just clarifying. I have repeatedly said that and am jumping in more here because I am enjoying the conversation and the lack of constant rudeness and challenging of COTH.

It IS a perspective if you can live working for the best trainers. Not being rude or disrespectful in any way, but most people can't live that life even if they wanted to for many reasons. So, if you have the choice of being able to work for those people, then it makes sense you would never take lessons from anyone you didn't 100% respect and believe their philosophy. For your understanding of most everyone else, that's not a possibility.

I have worked for some trainers/riders of various levels and did what you did. There was no one I 100% agreed with everything they said and did, but that doesn't mean I can't learn something.

What exvet says is right on.

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Re: Canter - Suppling or Strenthening or ???

Postby Chancellor » Sun Sep 29, 2019 3:15 pm

Linden wrote:
musical comedy wrote:My trainer does not include canterining in the warmup. When asked why not, I was told because the trot is the suppling gait. I tell him that my understanding is that the canter loosens the back and the trot is always better after a canter. Of course, he doesn't want to believe that, so conversation ends. ....

...Like most of you, I used to read a lot and I have a boatload of articles on training. Of course, there are so many different opinions from 'experts' it's hard to know who to believe.


Why did you hire a trainer who you don't believe is doing things 'properly' in your opinion? If you believe you know better than your trainer, enough to back-talk them in your lessons, write condescendingly on a public forum, and even look for advice that coincides with your own beliefs from an AA instead, then I find it utterly confusing why you keep this trainer around.


I think it is GOOD to question your trainer. When I was teaching, I liked it when my students questioned me. Linden, I think you are being a bit snarky here.
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Re: Canter - Suppling or Strenthening or ???

Postby Dresseur » Mon Sep 30, 2019 6:11 pm

I had written a whole big response on Friday but apparently it poofed.

In any case, regarding the canter question, it all depends. The shorter backed horses seem to do well with a bit of canter in warmup, but they have to "earn" the right to incorporate the canter because it can increase tension, particularly if you are on a hotter TB type horse.

Regarding the money/lifestyle/access thing... I have a FT job that requires long hours, and I'm happily married - but I make sure that I come down at least once a week to work in exchange for lessons and opportunities to ride. I did happily pay for lessons, but I'd go broke, so this works for me and my husband luckily tolerates it.

I also question A when I don't understand or don't agree with something. It usually leads to a great conversation.

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Re: Canter - Suppling or Strenthening or ???

Postby Tanga » Mon Sep 30, 2019 6:25 pm

I was wondering it it was just me. I've had a couple of long responses written out and they go away.

I just love the canter as a warm up. I started it because all of my horses were hot TBy types and I hate posting the trot. Right now I have a short, medium, and a long backed horse, and I think it works for all of them. Because someone put a bug in my ear, I also have made sure I warm up even lower to really get that back warm, and try to go back to stretches in between the work to remind the back to come up and stretch again.

Questions are good. I think if we all just go on the assumption that everyone is just geeking out on talking about what they love and clarifying, we're in pretty good shape. I refuse to assume anyone is being rude or snarky unless they tell me so.

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Re: Canter - Suppling or Strenthening or ???

Postby kande50 » Mon Sep 30, 2019 6:59 pm

Tanga wrote:Questions are good. I think if we all just go on the assumption that everyone is just geeking out on talking about what they love and clarifying, we're in pretty good shape. I refuse to assume anyone is being rude or snarky unless they tell me so.


It takes some practice, but I try not to react to what I think might be snark and just respond to any content that interests me. Unless someone comes across as so consistently snarky that I give up and put them on mental ignore.

AFA warmup, I love posting trot way too much, so spend way too much time just trotting around and around. I used to love sitting trot and canter just as much, but now have a strong preference for posting trot. Although I have been trying to develop walk more lately, now that I'm no longer so worried about accidentally developing a lateral walk. And, I finally realized that I was trying to get too much angle in si left, and we're both much happier if I just settle for shoulder fore that way.

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Re: Canter - Suppling or Strenthening or ???

Postby Chisamba » Mon Sep 30, 2019 9:01 pm

Whether I use canter in warm up, or later in the ride, I do find the walk almost always improves after canter.

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Re: Canter - Suppling or Strenthening or ???

Postby Flight » Mon Sep 30, 2019 10:09 pm

I had an instructor that didn't like to answer questions and would just want you to do what he said because he knows it works. But while I can do things by rote, I didn't really like doing it without understanding it. I really appreciate the instructors that will discuss why they think something, even if it's just a brief explanation.
Norsey's trot is usually better after some canter. Ding's doesn't seem to make much difference.

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Re: Canter - Suppling or Strenthening or ???

Postby Chisamba » Tue Oct 01, 2019 1:31 pm

In my opinion if you understand why you are doing something it carries over from the lesson to every ride on every horse. Some instructors are good at giving just the right blend of instruction and explanation. i have had a couple of clinics where i am pretty sure the instructor did not know why, and under those circumstances I did not return to that clinician

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Re: Canter - Suppling or Strenthening or ???

Postby exvet » Tue Oct 01, 2019 1:42 pm

I agree Chisamba and further more what value are exercises if you don't know what benefits they provide or purpose they serve as well as what their drawbacks (or trade offs) are? Your toolbox is only as good as the knowledge of how and when to apply them. I had an instructor who used to keep a journal of all of her rides with a couple of specific clinicians. She catalogued exercises and their purpose based on what she learned as well as a description of what she felt as she rode them (horses' responses). She would whip it out whenever we hit a wall or got into a sticky spot during some of my lessons or just to give me more suggestions on what might help in a certain area. For this alone her fees were worth every penny.

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Re: Canter - Suppling or Strenthening or ???

Postby Ryeissa » Tue Oct 01, 2019 2:33 pm

same, if you don't know why it's not going to be long-term beneficial as a rider. It might work for that lesson but no lasting value

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Re: Canter - Suppling or Strenthening or ???

Postby Boudicea » Tue Oct 01, 2019 8:50 pm

I find my horse's trot to improve after the canter because he has an easier time sitting in the canter. So I feel like a lot depends on the horse.

I also understand Linden's point of why have a trainer you dont feel you can trust. On the other I also totally understand limited access to good trainers. Where I live most even mediocre trainers are asking over $150 for a 45min lesson.

I feel lucky just to have access to my barn owner who isn't a big name and can't always help me with my piaffe passage work but is a really exceptional teacher and has a very good eye.

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Re: Canter - Suppling or Strenthening or ???

Postby blob » Tue Oct 01, 2019 8:57 pm

When I was a kid, having an instructor that would get the best out of me and my horse at any given moment was very valuable. I also did not ride much outside of lessons then.

But as an adult, I find it far more valuable to have a trainer that teaches me to be a good trainer for my horse. Someone who's role is not so much to get magic out of me in the lesson, but to set me up for successful work between lessons, which is the majority of my riding time.

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Re: Canter - Suppling or Strenthening or ???

Postby mari » Wed Oct 02, 2019 5:39 am

I have a much better trot after a canter warm-up. He just feels looser and more ready to work. And it really helps with the forward. Odin's favourite part of any workout is the halt, and if I warm up in trot I often have to demand (or nag...) for forward, where if I canter first the trot is much rounder and more enthusiastic.
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Re: Canter - Suppling or Strenthening or ???

Postby AchtungBaby » Sun Oct 06, 2019 4:22 am

My first actual post! I think I can add to the discussion. :)

I think what works best in the warm-up depends on the horse and the rider and the combination of both. Try experimenting with different warm-up regimens to see what works best. This will change as the horse changes (and as your riding does) - you'll tweak it here and there.

With some horses, a bit of lateral work at walk and trot help to loosen up the back muscles, but this didn't work for my mare. Cantering did. So we did a bit of walk until she felt freely forward (maybe 10 minutes??) and then right into canter. For the older schoolmaster I leased, I did a lot of walk work in the warm-up (20-30 minutes) with lots of lateral work since it helped him loosen up and was easier on his joints than trot or canter.

If your trainer feels your horse does better without cantering in the warm-up, maybe he does. Try warming up with and without canter and see what feels best. It may depend on your riding vs. your trainer's. Maybe he is able to get more from the trot warm-up than you could. Maybe his warm-up on your horse will be different from yours. Just my thoughts.

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Re: Canter - Suppling or Strenthening or ???

Postby Chancellor » Mon Oct 07, 2019 12:30 pm

Welcome AchtungBaby. Our 503rd member!


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