Bend in the short bodied horse

[piedmontfields]

So I have a short bodied horse (Lusitano x). Many things are great about this, as her back is fairly strong and I never really lose the caboose of her hind engine. But bending is H A R D. Our version of half pass lacks bend. It is especially evident in canter. Our canter half pass would rather be a canter full pass (because moving sideways is easier than bending).

I was reminded of this topic from my winter goal (canter HP improvement!) and exvet's post. My mare can easily do 10 m (even 6 m ) canter circles in both directions, shoulder-fore towards shoulder in canter both ways, travers at canter both ways. But try to move that bend in a half pass and we only have a few good strides. I do use the c-HP 3-4 strides to shoulder fore to turn around and repeat. I like our work better on attempt 3 than attempt 1

Tips and suggestions? I *think* my aid for half pass is shoulder-fore + sit into the bend/direction. I don't do a lot with my outside leg besides "guard." Maybe I am sitting in too much and she thinks that means sideways, not forward/bend/sideways/foreward/bend? Sometimes I do warm up in canter travers to get things moving and bending some way, some how.

[chantal]

I am not an instructor nor do I play one but I know when I have an issue with bend I'm blocking with my outside rein, subtle but oh so important.

[Ryeissa]

what is happening to the ribcage and shoulder blade when the horse looses bend? I bet it has something to do with balance vs the ability to bend. My guess is the horse is falling in.

For me, what works on my very short backed horse is SI to HP then LY back to the other way then start HP again, or SI to HP to SI. This feeds into what chantal was saying about outside rein but the lack of a good outside connection is just a symptom of lack of balance. Also keep the steps small enough.

[piedmontfields]

The outside rein blockage is a good point, Chantal. I will watch for that. I'm thinking I might be interfering in that way several strides into the half pass (because it starts out ok---not great, but ok).

[exvet]

The exercise (set up) that Ryeissa posted is exactly what my instructor has me do at walk and trot. We're working up to doing it at the canter. She also emphasized that I ALWAYS need to remember to accentuate my inside leg and really get Junior to bend around it. There is no question he listens and obeys moving over from the outside leg. I find that if I lead with my seat and move my seat towards the end point of the HP I tend to not forget my inside leg and don't overuse my outside leg. Ryeissa is dead on in that it's too easy with the short coupled guys to allow them to collapse the shoulder, get stiff and brace as a result of the loss of balance. I do a lot of on the square turns just to encourage Junior to step 'out' or distinctly abduct his inside shoulder/fore leg away from his body. He's built like a brick sh!t house with a post on all 4 corners so you'd think it would be easy for him to do but it's not.

[heddylamar]

In addition to much of the above, when my short bodied horses aren't bending, I over-emphasize shifting my weight. Often I'm just being too subtle. Or, like right now, shifting my hips just isn't happening automatically.

[musical comedy]

I think conformation limits how well a horse can perform certain movements. Appropriate exercises of course improve some things.

As Rye and XVet wrote, those exercises are common ones that I think most trainers use. They work well. So does interrupting the HP with a circle and going back to HP.

With my very short backed and tight back mare, the more bend I tried to get, the more the impulsion that is lost. So, I have to sacrifice some bend in order to keep the flow. Even so, HP is not one of my mare's forte's and I'm not sure she even has a forte. Interestingly it is my very favorites dressage movement, but one that I have trouble with no matter the horse.

[Sue B]

Rudy is ultra-short backed, and I can't add anything to the discussion except to whole heartedly agree with exvet and Rye. When I have trouble getting that bend, it's usually my inside hip that's blocking him, though. But that's why I like the ly away thing.

[Ryeissa]

Essentially lack of bend is really lack of straightness....this is my own opinion and unique thought, but its been a topic I have thought a LOT about in the last few years. Feeling stiffness and lack of bend is a secondary problem meaning the body isn't where it needs to be- particularly is the ribcage on the OUTSIDE of the bend?

I like to assess how the horse is filling the outside ear/withers/ribs/stifle. On my wiggly horse I have to keep a close eye on these- they like to change every few steps, less so now that my horse is more advanced. I do this by monitoring with my body and weight aids.

The HP isn't really a problem in itself, it's just showing my horses' and my deficiencies in a more obvious way.

I never ever sacrifice the symmetry, as that causes my horse to have the best cadence/power as well, but it probably depends on your horse.

[piedmontfields]

Well, after looking at this again tonight in my ride, I think a few things are going on:

1. We are actually decent at the SI to HP to LY and repeat exercise at w, t, and c (I use it in warm up a lot), so I used this as a basis for observation of what is going on.

2. The walk and trot work is much better in the exercise than the canter work, but I can see my problems cross all gaits.

2. I observed that I need to be more clear in my weight shift, especially to the right. In fact, I'm much better at the weight shift to the left (I'm better at sitting "in" to the right). When I changed my level of "intention" with the weight shift, everything got a lot easier.

3. As MC notes, some horses can only be so talented at various exercises. I am most used to watching rather talented horses demonstrate the development of the half pass over time... So, I think I'm being pretty critical of my short, stubby mare We are not incredibly supple nor incredibly powerful nor full of amazing reach. I mean, she has short legs! Plus I'm her trainer. I'm not sure how much better we can actually get at this....

4. As for straightness, I will again note that I do not have an "FEI straight" horse. There are many degrees of straightness, and it is a process. Compared to the advanced event horses around me, she is quite straight and has a lot of self carriage. Compared to a quality PSG horse, not so much.

Thanks all for the thoughts and reminders.

[Ryeissa]

Good insights! remember I'm on an ayrab --- I get it--- but to me it's so fun that each horse and rider regardless of type/breed have so much to work on to develop symmetry and the same problems. No one gets a free pass, do they?

[Tanga]

Interesting. I was helping someone at the barn tonight with this. I always do all of the back and forth in lateral work kind of thing (SI, HP, leg yield, circle, HI, etc.)

With her horse, he was doing HI in one direction and very stiff in the rib cage, not bending in the other. In both directions I had her straighten. In the stiff direction, I had her really straighten and think about bumping the rib cage out a bit with every stride, but really stay straight through everything else in the circle. He improved dramatically in both directions with this.

We help each other on and off, and while he's not small horse, he was rather short moving and tight all over. I finally got her to go forward and let him relax that, and you can see a massive difference. She mentioned tonight that he cannot sit well as we played with piaffe on him, and I said he has improved dramatically in just a few months in stepping under behind whereas he never used to do that. I think it's amazing how much horses can improve, even if it seems like they don't have the ability.

[Ryeissa]

yes tanga- that is exactly what I am doing too.... my understanding is that I am doing the lateral work and bend to improve the pushing power and outside rein contact, etc and I don't do it just to do it....its about quality of the gaits and even-ness. This is why (for me) many time I do only 2 steps of HP at a time, if it's not 100% I don't continue. Riding through stiffness in my journey has never produced good work- some horses you can fix in the movement but I have never been successful.

[musical comedy]

Riding through stiffness in my journey has never produced good work.

For me neither which was the hangup for me with lessons. Apparently the trainer(s) didn't see what I was feeling or thought that continuing on as advised would be of benefit.

I am most used to watching rather talented horses demonstrate the development of the half pass over time... So, I think I'm being pretty critical of my short, stubby mare We are not incredibly supple nor incredibly powerful nor full of amazing reach. I mean, she has short legs! Plus I'm her trainer. I'm not sure how much better we can actually get at this....

Ditto Ditto, except mine doesn't have short legs so I don't have that reason. I have also been exposed to horses much nicer than my own and riders more talented. Instead of comparing myself and my horse to those with lesser talent, I tend to look at those that are better. Also, instead of moving up in quality, I moved down considerably when I bought my current mare. She just isn't very talented and certainly not cut out for dressage. Everything is a trade off. Each of us has our list of priorities and what we are able to live with.

Would I like to be doing all the FEI moves? Well, yes and no. I've more or less accepted that it's not going to happen so why frustrate myself trying to get what will never be.

[piedmontfields]

Tanga, your point is well taken that improvement is possible for a shocking number of us pairs I'm reminded of a friend who rode her new pony (who was maybe 2 months into very basic dressage training after life as a child's pony) with a clinician. The pony had a basic shoulder in, so the clinician asked them to add in 4-5 strides of half pass in one pattern. It was really not bad! The clinician praised the pony and rider for making a good effort---and emphasized that this is what basic training does---it teaches the horse to follow clear aids and to trust the request of the rider. I just saw this pair a few weeks ago (a year later than this clinic) and now the pony has a very respectable half pass. It is not huge and flashy, but it has good balance and decent thrust. Again, good basic training yields results.

MC, our various equine choices do lead to certain challenges for sure. That said, I admit that I would totally go for a similar type horse to mine again---I like so much about her and now I've learned quite a bit about how to work with her. But I first learned many movements (including half-pass) on leggier, more supple horses---and it felt rather different lol!

[exvet]

I agree that tension, especially between the ears and over the back is a brick wall for Junior and I, no matter what the movement or intention. No matter what we're doing, if I feel tension creeping in I will ask for some forward strides often including a request for Junior to stretch especially through the neck. Then once we've relaxed and regrouped we will try again maybe the same approach or maybe a different approach depending on what I think he's taking issue with at the time. While I find short coupled a challenge sometimes to show the dramatic bend and sweeping stride, I know that his sire use to score very well in the lateral movements. Lateral movements made him very supple and relaxed. Junior is almost identical to his sire but with a better neck; so, I trust that Junior will get there too. As with what has already been stated, my goal is to keep in mind the quality of the gait and never sacrifice that in order to get the movement. Focusing on balance and connection of both the horse and myself, I am hoping to be able to get there little by little - it may not be Olympic quality but the movements will score at least a 7. More importantly, the movements will add tools and exercises to my tool box that can help in Junior's development.

[Tanga]

I think a lot of all issues is tension in some form or another. When it's there, there is misunderstanding, inability, stress, tightness, etc. When there is little/no tension, so much is possible. I always try to go back to myself and my stiff, hurting body. Besides riding, I am fortunate to be able to go to a 24 hour fitness class three times a week with an amazing instructor who always changes it up and challenges in new ways. I really like classes because I can see how massive the ability to do anything varies in everyone. And I'm always stiff or tight or tense somewhere. I need to be able to loosen that up, not force it, and strengthen it, and every time it's always a little different, and every time I need to push it slightly in different ways, or take it easier that day.

That's what I try to keep in mind with the horses. They are the same. Their tension is not something to force through, but to find a way to work them through it and make them stronger. Stronger is always the key to suppleness and relaxation.

It's interesting with my horses, ability wise. Their mom was an issue of being older and too small for me, but that mare can piaffe, pirouette, and half pass up the whazoo. Of the two daughters, I always thought the older one would be the easy GP horse. She is so supple and relaxed looking in her movements. She can piaffe/passage all day long. But with her staying relaxed when we moved into the one tempis has been a huge issue. Her younger sister (by two years) has always felt like a giant, tense spring and really scared me and hurt me a few times. While the older one looks almost like a light built baroque horse, she is more like a tank. She is hard to relax and supple and not a quick mover. But, when I ask her for a movement, even if she hasn't done it before, she just does it. You would think with her not being "quick," changes would be hard, but she is the easiest horse I've ever put changes on. Just for the hell of it the other day I asked her for one tempis. She just did them. Against all of what I thought was possible with the two of them because of their build and temperament, the younger one might be the better GP horse. (The eventer at the barn says she looks like a hunter with her big, open, steady stride.) You just never know, and it takes a long time and a lot of failure until you know for sure one way or another.

[piedmontfields]

To follow on this general topic, the lessons available online from Ali Brock for Lauren Sprieser on USEF are really helpful for pointing out:

-Demand proper balance all the time (especially corners). Stop and re-balance and go again as necessary to raise the standard.
-Helpful canter half pass demo and discussion, including "creating a pocket" for the horse to move to the inside bend.

A nice phrase Ali uses is "Dare to let him fall apart" and then "put him back together again." A very good reminder for rider-trainers who do not ever go to that point. When you do this consistently, you notice when the horse has learned to hold himself up (and is changing his balance).

Look for the Rutledge Farm sessions in the on demand section of USEF network.

[Ryeissa]

To follow on this general topic, the lessons available online from Ali Brock for Lauren Sprieser on USEF are really helpful for pointing out:

-Demand proper balance all the time (especially corners). Stop and re-balance and go again as necessary to raise the standard.
-Helpful canter half pass demo and discussion, including "creating a pocket" for the horse to move to the inside bend.

A nice phrase Ali uses is "Dare to let him fall apart" and then "put him back together again." A very good reminder for rider-trainers who do not ever go to that point. When you do this consistently, you notice when the horse has learned to hold himself up (and is changing his balance).

Look for the Rutledge Farm sessions in the on demand section of USEF network.

did anyone else watch this video? comments?
Looks like a hard horse to ride, but so appreciative we get these videos from USEF. I hope they keep offering these clinics.

[musical comedy]

did anyone else watch this video? comments?
Looks like a hard horse to ride, but so appreciative we get these videos from USEF. I hope they keep offering these clinics.

Which video are we talking about; the one with Sprieser taking a clinic? I started to watch it, but lost interest quickly. That's just me. I can't sit and watch 45 minutes of someone riding, especially when they are riding high quality horses.

[piedmontfields]

Yes, the Spreiser ride with Brock is the one I was referring to. It is a very nice horse---not only in ability, but also attitude, willingness and generosity. I will never own a horse like that (frankly, I'm not a good enough rider to--it is a lot of movement and power to handle), but I can see how lovely he is and what an incredible work ethic he has.

Due to the horse's tendency to be extravagant with his front end, it was mentioned that Spreiser was being very deliberate to not let that over power his hind (although that was the horse's go to). I appreciated seeing just how much a very nice horse and capable rider still have to work on very fundamental balance issues as the horse develops (this is a horse who is showing PSG, schooling I-1).

In other notes, I've found the remarks on this thread quite helpful as I've continued working this month on quality of bend and half passes and relations. Probably the best insight I've had is to never abandon the power of my seat as a communication tool. Often instead of more leg or more rein, I've needed "more seat" (or more proper, clear seat) in order to make communication crystal clear. When I do this, the little mare is happy to try her heart out and the work is quite fair. The left canter straightness and thoroughness has also been improving quite a bit.

[Ryeissa]

did anyone else watch this video? comments?
Looks like a hard horse to ride, but so appreciative we get these videos from USEF. I hope they keep offering these clinics.

Which video are we talking about; the one with Sprieser taking a clinic? I started to watch it, but lost interest quickly. That's just me. I can't sit and watch 45 minutes of someone riding, especially when they are riding high quality horses.

There are two full clinic rides. Day 1 in snaffle day 2 in double.

[Ryeissa]

Yes, the Spreiser ride with Brock is the one I was referring to. It is a very nice horse---not only in ability, but also attitude, willingness and generosity. I will never own a horse like that (frankly, I'm not a good enough rider to--it is a lot of movement and power to handle), but I can see how lovely he is and what an incredible work ethic he has.

Due to the horse's tendency to be extravagant with his front end, it was mentioned that Spreiser was being very deliberate to not let that over power his hind (although that was the horse's go to). I appreciated seeing just how much a very nice horse and capable rider still have to work on very fundamental balance issues as the horse develops (this is a horse who is showing PSG, schooling I-1).

In other notes, I've found the remarks on this thread quite helpful as I've continued working this month on quality of bend and half passes and relations. Probably the best insight I've had is to never abandon the power of my seat as a communication tool. Often instead of more leg or more rein, I've needed "more seat" (or more proper, clear seat) in order to make communication crystal clear. When I do this, the little mare is happy to try her heart out and the work is quite fair. The left canter straightness and thoroughness has also been improving quite a bit.

Looks like a nice horse, you can tell he's very strong and green in that level of carriage. He looked liked a tough ride to me, but Lauren is miles and lightyears away what I will ever be so I should shut up.

I use upper abs/my ribcage in the half pass and that helps it stay more balanced- for example bending right I use my right abs and ribs to help the horse keep the bend along with my seatbone. I try to not use any leg or hand beyond "leg back" and maintaining flexion.

[piedmontfields]

FYI, that is an incredibly kind and talented young horse. Some horses would stand on their hinds legs or worse to express "oh, this is hard, carrying weight on my hinds all the time!" That is what I mean the horse is kind, hardworking and generous. He is willing to accept the guidance and directions for weight bearing.

I don't really think about my abs much in half pass as it is actually fairly easy work compared to some movements although I tend towards having a strong core. FWIW, I can do equally good/bad half passes (w-t-c) with the reins in one hand or both hands lol!

[musical comedy]

I Probably the best insight I've had is to never abandon the power of my seat as a communication tool. Often instead of more leg or more rein, I've needed "more seat" (or more proper, clear seat) in order to make communication crystal clear.

I am a seat rider, especially with my current horse. I could stand to use a little more leg .

The one thing I saw in the little bit that I watch was the horse picking up the wrong lead twice. Ok, no biggie I guess, but I would not expect that in a PSG horse. Little mistakes like that which most people seem to just shrug off bug me. The tinest thing going wrong in a ride, I blow way out of proportion.

Anyway, does this video tie into short bodied horses in any way?

I was thinking today in my ride how I would explain this here because it makes no sense. My mare is short coupled, but very strong in the back and rump. At the canter, specifically, she is really a bit labored, but the push I feel seems like she is powerful when she isn't. For that reason, I just hate to canter this mare. I wonder if it has something to do with my stiff old hips, but I have no problem sitting the trot. But then, her trot lacks suspension so it's easy to sit.

I have no medium canter, and really no lengthening at the canter. It's too much up and down. If I try to get more length of stride with either seat or leg, then there is hopping or trying to change. Actually, I don't even try anymore. I only care because I feel like a failure when I can't get basic things that used to be so easy on other horses.

[Ryeissa]

Anyway, does this video tie into short bodied horses in any way?

.

not that I can tell, no. Its still fun to talk about.
My horse being short backed and lighter boned means I can't have as much of a pushing and driving seat as Lauren. Still useful tips, but much like my current lessons (corners, etc) but at a lower level. It's sort of all the same when you get right down to it

[piedmontfields]

Not necessarily, MC. See above in thread for my reasons for posting it (there are half pass discussions/demonstrations).

[musical comedy]

Not necessarily, MC. See above in thread for my reasons for posting it (there are half pass discussions/demonstrations).

Oh ok, you mean this:

-Demand proper balance all the time (especially corners). Stop and re-balance and go again as necessary to raise the standard.
-Helpful canter half pass demo and discussion, including "creating a pocket" for the horse to move to the inside bend.

A nice phrase Ali uses is "Dare to let him fall apart" and then "put him back together again." A very good reminder for rider-trainers who do not ever go to that point. When you do this consistently, you notice when the horse has learned to hold himself up (and is changing his balance).

Sometimes I admit I tend to not focus on certain things written because I'm not at a point where they can be helpful.

Also I admit to not riding corners. Why? Well because I stay off the rail when I ride. I suppose I could ride imaginary corners (squares), but again, I have my hands full with other more basic things to worry about.

The 'dare to let them fall apart' is interesting. I suppose I do that inadvertendly when I'm trying to teach my mare counter canter. I was reading another article recently on CC and I forget the author. He said something to that effect, by saying not to be holding your breath for fear the horse would break stride or change leads. That's exactly what I do...hold my breath..."please stay in CC". While some of you are teaching changes, my mare has them as she was taught when started as a hunter. I have to be really careful that she doesn't change in counter canter.

[exvet]

Interesting MC, as I've been working a lot more on the counter canter lately. I have not approached flying changes as of yet, in Junior. I must admit that Junior has found his balance relatively quickly in both the canter and counter canter which I credit his short coupled conformation for that; so, our focus currently has been working on suppleness both laterally and longitudinally in both the canter and counter canter. I do challenge him to break and really focus with my entire seat and leg to keep him going forward. I wouldn't call it a driving seat but I do maintain the cadence and tempo I want in my seat. We're doing this all the while I'm also working on canter-walk transitions and collection/engagement.

I have a lesson later this afternoon and will pay attention to how we approach the lateral work. I do ride corners and try to use them to set up the movements. I also do not hold my breath. I try to focus on keeping things light and easy with my seat/legs leading and opening up the direction I want the horse to travel. To be honest I would do this regardless of the horses' conformation. I think what I'm going to have to guard against, though, is making sure I do not use too much outside leg to create bend especially with a shorter coupled horse. I have a feeling that this will cause as much damage as blocking with my inside leg/seat bone can; but, unfortunately it's a tendency I know I can fall into if I'm not paying attention. I also know that I do this when I tend to focus on something else and allow my body (mid section) to collapse; so, will try to keep the headlights on high beam LOL and see if this keeps the flow in the lateral work

[musical comedy]

I don't know for certain that I hold my breath, but whatever I do is likely not a good thing.

The problem I find with training is that you can only work on so much in a ride. There should be a plan, but that plan should be based on certain prerequisites being in place. For example, why start counter canter if you don't have a decent true canter. Well, I guess some might say because counter canter improves the true canter. Things like this is where some of us AA's are stifled; i.e. not knowing what to work on and when.

I suppose because I have no real goals I do work on some things out of order. I'm not in training anymore and while I'm sure my trainer would think my performance sucks, I know that I have improved some things and also taught the mare some things. Experimenting is a good thing for me. I once wrote that a trainer long ago told me something that I've never forgotten. She said, if something isn't working, try the opposite. That has been a lighbulb moment for me many times with many horses.

One place where I am fortunate is that I have mirrors. I have a whole wall on the short side, and I have mirrors on each of the long sides.

[Tanga]

Interesting the discussion about the use of the seat. I've been playing with this lately.

Since I finally found a saddle I can seat deep in and not hurt my back, I also found I was sitting deep too much, and especially with the super sensitive horse, it was too much. Just like in p/p I lighten my seat, I need to do that on other work, especially the canter. I've been working on more self carriage and impulsion by not taking the rein, but more through and forward, which is a lot to sit on both horses. I found if I sit too deep all of the time, it stresses them both out in different ways. So I've been playing with canter on the spot or pirouette just with a deep seat (I feel like I tuck my tailbone under) and the extend the canter with a lighter seat (so they don't feel like I am digging into their back) and then asking for collection again just with the deeper seat. Musical comedy--maybe something to try to make the canter more sitable?

If all of that is too much to stay with in a bigger arena or line, I go to a circle the size I need to to maintain control, but still not pull, forcing the horse to find her balance without me grabbing the front end. We're doing a lot of circles.

And the breathing thing is a big one. I used to hold my breath all of the time. Pilates really helped me with ingraining breathing through things, so now when I show I have a lot of pictures of me looking like a blowfish because I breathe out like that. But that's a big one I always have to work on. Just like the deep seat, I think I was holding too much all of the time with all of my body. I'm really using the winter to also work on always following and maintaining a rhythm with my contractions or tightness, because of course how can the horse move well if I'm holding right?

[exvet]

I had a really nice lesson yesterday. Junior stepped up to the plate and worked like a real dressage horse. For the lateral movements which consisted of shoulder in, traver and half-pass at the trot. I focused on the quality of the gaits, keeping my seat open, chest lifted AND my outside rein. It was amazing how much bend I got simply by half-halting every other stride with my outside rein alternating with asking for Junior to step into both reins equally and reaching over his back. The really nice thing though, was that with just a little bit of lower leg at the right time I got POWER, real POWER. His trot was cadenced. His medium trot and medium canter were expressive and lifted up through the withers.

Two things I did which were different than usual were working a bit more in long and low during the warm up experimenting with some exercises to get him to loosen up through his back. At first it seemed like it didn't make any difference. Then we worked on turn on the haunches before going to the lateral work but after trot and canter in the warm up. We worked on control of the hind legs and shoulders while maintaining the purity of the gait. Much of this required teaching Junior that my outside leg along with my outside rein were going to keep him moving forward and not allow him to 'spin' around or fall into the inside or on to the inside shoulder. I felt every hind leg foot fall in my hands and was able to keep the movement moving forward and measure and place his steps. I managed to keep some of this feel into the lateral work at the trot.

I too have learned how to keep breathing through working out. I use to have people make fun of me when I rode a much larger welsh cob years ago because they said my breathing at times sounded like I was practicing to give birth especially while working at the upper levels. My breathing is no longer quite so obvious but like then and now I don't have any trouble remembering to breathe while riding the movements. Running/racing, pilates and working with weights have helped all aspects of breathing with exertion (can't say the actual act of giving birth did much for my breathing while riding LOL).

[kande50]

I suppose because I have no real goals I do work on some things out of order. I'm not in training anymore and while I'm sure my trainer would think my performance sucks, I know that I have improved some things and also taught the mare some things. Experimenting is a good thing for me.

Experimenting is everything, or at least it is for me. It's why I own my own horses, so that I can work on what interests me.