When do you think showing will resume again?

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Tanga
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When do you think showing will resume again?

Postby Tanga » Mon Apr 20, 2020 5:51 pm

I was thinking about this. There are notices that qualifications for championships in the fall will be minimized and such, but I don't see how any showing can resume until next year, after there is a vaccine.

We can probably get to shows and be safe as riders, managing to get numbers and paperwork. But, the office staff in close quarters becomes a lot more dangerous. But the real issue I see is judges. For dressage, a majority of the judges are older. There is no way they can safely sit in a box next to someone else, let alone fly around the country. Other disciplines have some more leeway, but I still don't see how it can be safe.

I hadn't really thought about this until yesterday. No showing until next spring at best. That puts a whole new perspective on showing. I can't imagine there is anywhere in the world where it would change that. And then that leads into the Olympics next summer, which really can't happen.

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Re: When do you think showing will resume again?

Postby Kelo » Mon Apr 20, 2020 7:40 pm

I don't have an answer and I hear your point, but at a certain point we have to reintegrate into life again, and the majority of us will eventually be exposed/recover. I have already seen notices from show secretaries saying that when they reopen all their duties will be done virtually, so no going into the show office. Not all judges are vulnerable, so surely there will be judges available. We will just have to all decide what we want to risk.

But the one thing I know for sure is our industry has to adapt, and I don't see dressage doing a good job of that.

WDAA (western dressage) has started approving virtual shows, with scores earned worth half as many points as a live show, but still allows you to qualify for lifetime/year qualifications. APHA has started offering virtual shows that are just jackpotted (ie not on official records).

AQHA has cancelled its qualification for its world shows, because people are unable to qualify.

FEI, on the other hand, sent out an email saying anyone caught operating a virtual show, or judging a virtual show, or using an FEI test in a virtual show would get in trouble. And then furloughed their employees.

It's frustrating. USDF could be getting income, show managers could be getting income, judges could be getting income, and riders could be earning qualifications during this time -- and we could all be doing it safely. Obviously major events (like Olympic qualifications) will have to be put on hold, but that doesn't involved 99% of us. And I paid my memberships for USDF/USEF....and it might be completely wasted this year if I can't show.

It would be nice if these associations could be more dynamic and work for the people...

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Re: When do you think showing will resume again?

Postby Tanga » Mon Apr 20, 2020 7:51 pm

Kelo--good points, I hadn't thought of the adaptations! Could a judge basically Zoom judge a show? That is a very interesting idea.

How does WDAA do a virtual show? People just send in videos?

I saw the FEI issues. Their lack of flexibility could be a huge issue for them.

I paid a three year USEF and have life in everything else, which I guess is kind of good.

Maybe with all of these frustrations, as with the world, there might be some really good things to come out of it, making dressage more accessible. I live in an easy area to show, but many people don't. If we can do virtual options that are cheaper, it would sure allow a lot more participation in a lot more ways. And this could take down the leaders of USDF/USEF that are so intransigent and force a change for the better. Just like in the rest of the world, maybe so many more of us can work virtually, thus getting rid of so many issues like having to live in certain areas, traffic, pollution, etc.

I always keep saying this is Gaia, who has been shouting from the rooftops with literal storms of all sorts to pay attention, and when that didn't work, literally sent a plague so that we have to pay attention and change. There could be so many good things that come out of this.

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Re: When do you think showing will resume again?

Postby Moutaineer » Mon Apr 20, 2020 8:03 pm

Personally, for me, I am assuming it isn't going to happen this year. As Laddie isn't getting any younger, that's sad for us as I'd have liked to have got my bronze medal on him. I felt like we had a shot at it this year, before all this lot started. But I don't know how many more years he has left in him.

But, in the overall scheme of life with horses, who am I to be so presumptuous as to assume he would stay sound anyway? At least I was tardy in paying my USDF and USEF dues.

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Re: When do you think showing will resume again?

Postby Kelo » Mon Apr 20, 2020 8:46 pm

Tanga wrote:Kelo--good points, I hadn't thought of the adaptations! Could a judge basically Zoom judge a show? That is a very interesting idea.

How does WDAA do a virtual show? People just send in videos?


Sure they could Zoom judge a show. There's lots of ways to adapt, if the industry wants to survive, and we have a lot of smart people who could help make it happen if there were enough desire.

WDAA right now is approving virtual shows. So show manager submits everything to WDAA, gets approved, just like normal. Except then exhibitors send in a video of them riding the test (you set up your camera where the judge would sit), it must be done within a specific time range. An approved judge scores it within a specific time range. The show manager then places classes and disseminates the info within a specific time range. WDAA gets the results and everybody gets half as much points as they would've earned at a live show.The videos have to be complete from entrance to final salute, no cuts in them or they get DQ'd. Dressage is MADE for this kind of thing, being a single exhibitor event with pre-defined tests in a pre-defined arena. Other events, like group classes, or roping or cutting -- it would be impossible to do.

But think about it. If you want to earn your Second Level scores for your bronze, or you want to go for your all-breed awards....why is this impossible?

Now, instead of going to 4 shows to try for your All-Breed, you'll have to do a minimum of 8 virtual shows. Instead of getting two scores at Second Level, you gotta have 4. Still doable for most of us, since we don't have to travel. And just think, every one of those tries requires entry fees, which is income for the association, management and judges.

Again, this is not for the big stuff like CDIs or championships, I'm talking about the every day stuff us peons need. We are not inventing the covid vaccine here, these rides are ultimately just personal goals, and FEI's whole "we can't ensure horses are being treated humanely" is BS. Again without cuts to the video, you can make the riders ride up to the camera, dismount and show you the horse's sides and mouth to ensure no blood or whatever, and drop the bridle to check bits. Make sure the sound is on so you know someone's not coaching them. No, I can't make sure the horse isn't drugged, but most shows don't drug test anyway.

It's about adapting to what's going on and helping our industry continue even with the issues we're facing.

It's frustrating for me because my horse is getting older too, and I don't have much longer. It could be so easy if we had more visionaries leading the industry, but here we are....

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Re: When do you think showing will resume again?

Postby blob » Mon Apr 20, 2020 8:51 pm

I think there's a good chance that by fall most things will resume. However, for the show season that might be complicated. If shows resume in September, then those who have not yet gotten yearly memberships, likely won't want to for just a month or two of showing before the show year ends. It would also make regionals somewhat pointless. Yes, I know many have probably already qualified, but there are plenty of places with no winter shows. So, it might make sense for USDF to just cancel the entire year.

However, if things are ready to 'open up' by fall, hopefully USDF can be somewhat adaptable and perhaps start the 2021 season early.

Re: virtual shows: I've heard of some places doing dressage schooling shows virtually. You just send in a video, pay a small fee, and then get judges comments and a score. Obviously you have the ability to do a 're-do' on video in a way you don't at an actual show. But for a schooling show, I think that is totally fine--since the goal of a schooling show is to see where you are and get judge feedback. And if it takes you 10 tries to get your 65% ride, then you know that you're unlikely to go into a rated show and have the same result.

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Re: When do you think showing will resume again?

Postby Chancellor » Tue Apr 21, 2020 11:10 am

There are a lot of problems with a Virtual show. For one thing, a good video artist could cut and paste and no one would be the wiser. For another, you don't have the "level playing field" of everyone competing in the same place on the same day. I think for a schooling show, this is not a bad idea. But for people competing to get medals etc, not so much

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Re: When do you think showing will resume again?

Postby Tanga » Tue Apr 21, 2020 6:10 pm

Chancellor wrote:There are a lot of problems with a Virtual show. For one thing, a good video artist could cut and paste and no one would be the wiser. For another, you don't have the "level playing field" of everyone competing in the same place on the same day. I think for a schooling show, this is not a bad idea. But for people competing to get medals etc, not so much


Yeah. I can see that. I agree that it is just good for schooling shows. I do like the idea, though, that maybe the judges can be virtual and instead of be flown around the country, judge from a computer with a scribe sitting at the actual show. That could really reduce costs for showing as well as keep judges alive and healthy and make it easier to have judges from anywhere.

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Re: When do you think showing will resume again?

Postby Kelo » Tue Apr 21, 2020 8:18 pm

I hear what you're saying, Chancellor, but respectfully disagree (mostly for the sake of us having lots of time right now to sit around the fire and spitball ideas 8-) )

I agree, there are always cheaters, but to me the mass benefit far outweighs those one or two bad apples. The majority of people aren't capable of such things, and if those few people with unlimited funds and no ethics want to hire a professional to video and cut together a seamless undetectable video of them riding a test just to earn that Second Level score....well, golly. They're gonna have to do it 4 times to earn those 2 scores, and at least it's income for that videographer as well as the show entities. And what difference does it make if that ultimately produces one more bronze medal winner? They're contributing to the industry - they're buying a horse, paying a trainer, paying for equipment/feed/whatever, paying for vet and farrier, paying for show costs, paying for that medal. Maybe they'll be encouraged enough to go for their Silver the honest way. And for every one of those, you have 100 everyday people doing it the honest way that you're able to help. And maybe even some new people (maybe someone doesn't have a trailer) who give it a try, get a taste of competition, and decide to jump in!

As far as the show conditions....show conditions aren't the same even at events. What happens when it's sunny and 75 at 8am, but the weather comes in and by 9am it's 55 and windy, kicking up dust and going up the horse's backsides? Your conditions sure ain't the same but the show goes on. And, ultimately, in this sport, we're competing against the scores, so why is it super necessary to have the same conditions?

I do hear your point, but to me, it's about adapting to keep our industry going, which sometimes requires outside-the-box thinking and taking some risks. IMHO the benefits far outweigh the risks -- we can support our industry, keep people employed, and who knows, you might attract people who want to dip their toes in and try it. Obviously once this risk is under control, you switch back to the "regular" way of doing things, but as we've discussed, it could be a year!

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Re: When do you think showing will resume again?

Postby Chancellor » Wed Apr 22, 2020 11:36 am

Kelo, I am all about a good discussion. You are always free to disagree with me.

So, if one person pays a videographer to cut and paste together a really good second level test, what is to stop them from using that same test 4 different times with four different judges (isn't it two judges)?

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Re: When do you think showing will resume again?

Postby Kelo » Wed Apr 22, 2020 1:05 pm

Super, let's crack open a drink of choice then and continue :D

Chancellor wrote:(isn't it two judges)?


My premise says that everything virtual counts as half. So if in real life you need two 60% scores at a specific level for your medal, to get the equivalent virtually, you'd have to enter 4 virtual shows (with 4 different judges). Which includes all the costs associated with that -- show fees, class fees, etc.

Chancellor wrote:So, if one person pays a videographer to cut and paste together a really good second level test, what is to stop them from using that same test 4 different times with four different judges


Hmm, good point, they ARE morally corrupt, so it stands to reason they would also cheat on the cheating! I'm not sure I have an answer for that! If people want to game the system that badly for a 2" medal that you have to purchase even after earning it, it's hard to stop them. You have to weigh being able to help the majority of everyday folks (including the professionals that are making a living doing this) versus these few bad actors.

There's always fair and unfair in this sport, we all talk about it all the time.

How many people have a financial advantage to buy the best (horses, equipment, whatever)? Because I have to fight and scrap for every bit of this sport I participate in.

How many people get to ride schoolmasters to earn their medals? Because I've had to train my own horse every step of the way.

How many people get to have trainers and lessons every day? Because getting 1-3 lessons a month for me is a true battle.

How many people get to attend a live show at their boarding facility, or at least within a 30 minute drive and thus have a 'home court advantage'? Because I have to drive 400+ miles one way to attend any show, and I sleep on a cot in my trailer (no living quarters rig).

There's really no such thing as fair, you know?

I guess I have a different mindset. It's admirable to hold the sport to a high standard in some regards, like judging, for sure. But serving the customers should be a priority, and that requires trying stuff that might be new and uncomfortable, or even might not work (in which case, you adjust and try something different!).

This sport's customer base, like all horse sports, is the everyday 8-5 people out there in the world that work two or three jobs to buy their USDF/USEF memberships, horses, equipment, lessons, medical care, entry fees, yada yada yada. So you do everything you can to serve the needs of those people. And if you succeed and find a way to help them to their goals, your base gets stronger and subsequently you can support the entire industry above it....like paying for the US olympic teams (I got an email from USEF the other day whining about how these cancelled shows was hurting the income to pay for the olympic teams, and my eyes rolled back in my head). If you don't tend to the everyday man, they eventually drop away, and the olympic team is left paying for themselves.

If all leadership does is shrug its shoulders, whimper about its olympic team's finances and create a digital scavenger hunt....well. I just don't think that is a forward-thinking way to problem solve. JMHO though!

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Re: When do you think showing will resume again?

Postby blob » Wed Apr 22, 2020 3:21 pm

I think the using of the same video is more problematic and also more likely than the expert video editing. So, I imagine they'd have to find some way to ensure that each test is only useable for a single show. I'm not sure how they would ensure that but maybe instead of saluting--you would hve to announce the name of the show and date.

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Re: When do you think showing will resume again?

Postby Ryeissa » Wed Apr 22, 2020 5:42 pm

I've done the online dressage shows in the past and it was super helpful. The scores were fair, I got a ribbon and full test sheet. I think there is a definite place for this virtual review. I don't think it needs to be official or for points/year end awards. I use it as a supplement to my clinics, regular trainers, and shows. I'd like to think that shows will happen sometime in 2020, but regardless I will be fine. In the case of betterdressagescores you compete against yourself, so no rankings. I always show at a higher level than the rest, so the would not be anyone to rank in my case.

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Re: When do you think showing will resume again?

Postby Tanga » Wed Apr 22, 2020 5:43 pm

I like this discussion. It's interesting. I can see the problems, but I do agree with kelo that people who will cheat always will cheat, and we can't do much about the advantages. I don't know that we could do anything about someone submitting the same video for a bunch of shows. Maybe there is some way to track it? But I think she's right that in the end, it doesn't really matter.

For me it would be fascinating. I am on kelo's end of the money thing. I am very lucky in some ways, but I had to breed and train my girls 100%. I can get very little help only once in awhile. My fancy rig is a 42 year old truck (that I am currently painting a landscape on :) ) and I bought the truck and trailer for $3200. I do what I can. I make a lot of mistakes because I don't have much help, but unlike kelo, I am super lucky to have shows I can drive to in 30 minutes. I live in a super competitive area with a lot of money, so every score is hard earned.

I would love to be able to show in Wellington virtually, because from what I see, I would do very well. As Janet Foy said, in CA we are at a disadvantage with the scoring because we don't have the computers. The scores here are definitely lower.

So if we can all show virtually, and I can figure out a way to set up and court at my barn and get someone to video me, would I show virtually and pay the fees, which should be a lot less than regular showing? I think, yes. My youngest mare would be a lot easier to show, in general, because I can get a horse at the shows I don't recognize. Her older sister is making huge strides with this extra time forced off, and I think I fixed her piaffe and passage, which was good before, but then I'd get to a show and it went all wonky. At home I get wonderful p/p and clean one tempis. I could enter twice as many shows as I did before for the same money.

Maybe this is a way to go. There is a lot more potential to bring in more money because people can show from anywhere. Nationals wouldn't be about who can afford it. Wellington wouldn't be about who can afford it. It would certainly be a lot easier on the judges. They would have to hire scribes that live near them and all tests would have to be scribed and submitted online. It would certainly be different, but I don't know it wold be a bad thing.

Show managers would still have jobs. Facilities that make a lot of money off of shows would be hurt. I think more judges could work. USEF and USDF would get less money, which many of us think is a good thing. There would be no drug testing, which is not good, but that goes back to cheaters cheat.

Why not make it official? Really, this is supposed to, and probably will with all of the morons going out now, much worse in the fall/winter. Why not just make the shows officially online for a year and see what happens, otherwise there can be no shows. We can see what we can learn from it, which I think would be a lot of fascinating things. Someone could make a new job out of presenting online shows so people can watch.

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Re: When do you think showing will resume again?

Postby Kelo » Wed Apr 22, 2020 6:41 pm

I think this conversation is interesting too, even just as a mental exercise!

I would think that with all the brilliant minds in this industry, there would be a solution to the repeat video issue, which I agree would be a problem, as well as all the other problems that would inevitably crop up while trying such a thing. This is not my area of expertise, so I'm just kinda throwing this out there.

What if USDF had a common storage place/cloud that you could upload the videos to for "official virtual shows". And then the job of the virtual show manager is to type in the member number and double check each rider's other entries to ensure that the videos are not the same. So if I enter 4 virtual shows, those 4 show managers each have to put in my member number, pull up the videos, and double check for honesty? Time consuming, but that's why they're being paid. Or, heck, maybe there's a program that can auto-check that kind of thing...I just don't know.

Or like what blob says, you have to announce yourself, your horse and the show, level and date the ride was performed to the camera before you start. Then ride your test, then ride back up to the camera, dismount, show both sides of the horse, and take the bridle off and show it to the camera. Any indication of a cut to the video of any kind would warrant an immediate DQ.

Or maybe you could do some kind of Zoom meeting setup. Like, you get a ride time, and you gotta be ready to go at that precise time and the show manager records your video as it plays on their screen and thus knows its honest? Who knows, I think if you brainstormed long enough, there would be ways to make it work...

But imagine, making it easier for the 8-5er is going to increase participation. It's going to attract newbies. Just think of all those people who would love to give this a try but are too afraid. What if they enter, ride an intro test, score a 65% and get hooked?

And if, when things get back to "normal" (whatever and whenever that will be), maybe the numbers of virtual shows would bear out doing them as a separate category. So you can win the Year-End Second Level award, OR a Virtual Year-End Second Level award. And don't mix them -- thus eliminating confusion on horse's records, but still accommodating the 8-5ers.

I know dressage is an elitist sport where Grand Prix/Wellington/Olympics are always the shining star, but I feel like being realists and taking care of that base is the way to be healthy in the long run.

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Re: When do you think showing will resume again?

Postby Ryeissa » Wed Apr 22, 2020 7:14 pm

I have probably 9 good friends at my barn who would never show USDF but would love to do something like this.

Of course we have a regulation size ring/letters, so for us it would be exactly the same court as a dressage show. You would need to have some assurance the ring is the same size....? or maybe that isn't needed?

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Re: When do you think showing will resume again?

Postby ironbessflint » Wed Apr 22, 2020 7:38 pm

A regulation ring would help, but I think everybody who has done schooling shows has ridden a test in a 60' wide indoor that was "close enough" and I think something like this could probably be run with the same flexibility?

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Re: When do you think showing will resume again?

Postby Ryeissa » Wed Apr 22, 2020 7:54 pm

ironbessflint wrote:A regulation ring would help, but I think everybody who has done schooling shows has ridden a test in a 60' wide indoor that was "close enough" and I think something like this could probably be run with the same flexibility?


Maybe....the scientist in me likes calibration of these things, but I guess if you judge each ride against itself then it doesn't matter. The possible concern could be if/when one rider has the large size judged against another who has the small arena. Not saying it DOES matter, just food for thought.
Also, my expectations for this are low, as I said they are for me not the same as a "real show" nor do they need to be

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Re: When do you think showing will resume again?

Postby demi » Wed Apr 22, 2020 10:16 pm

I’m finding this interesting, too. I’m pretty sure I would do online showing if it doesn’t get too complicated. As it is (or was), it seemed to me there are a lot of rules, regulations, and procedures that had to be kept/proved by the contestant, even for the low level shows. Plus all the different organizations that had to be joined and numbers kept track off. And a lot of the long and complicated procedures have to do with keeping people from being dishonest/immoral (drug testing, proving negative coggins, safe sport training, etc.). The stuff that is obvious, most of us would do anyway. I would have my horse coggins tested, I wouldn’t use non-regulation equipment, I would report shady behavior, blah blah blah. Cheaters don’t worry me because I believe, as has been pointed out, they’re gonna cheat anyway and really, the only person they’re cheating is themselves. I don’t care about the ribbon, awards, or placing, but I would like the opinions of a good judge.

For online showing, I would think a regulation or close to regulation size arena is pretty important, especially for the upper levels. But then there are things like where the camera is placed. It seems that should be standardized, and placement could easily be standardized, but what about zooming? Some people might just use a smart phone while others may hire a professional videographer. Is that a problem? IDK.

If a Zoom type arrangement were used, riding at a specific time could become complicated. If you have to rent a regulation arena and haul out, scheduling could be a problem.

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Re: When do you think showing will resume again?

Postby Ryeissa » Thu Apr 23, 2020 4:18 pm

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Re: When do you think showing will resume again?

Postby ironbessflint » Thu May 07, 2020 4:25 pm

So getting away from the virtual shows and back to the question about shows resuming again....

From Pony Cup's press release regarding their cancellation:
And last but not least, the Pony Cup is about so much more than just riding tests in the arena – it’s a fun, social event for everyone. We feel like if we were to try to hold the show this year, it would have to be with so many precautions and restrictions that it just wouldn’t be the same experience our competitors have come to expect.


I tend to agree completely with this statement, and it's something my mom and I have been chatting about, along with some of our horse show friends. And the subject of "back at the barn" was brought up in USEF's zoom meeting too (show hosts/managers can do everything right with limited contact, but how do you manage the groups of people back in the barn areas).

For my mom and I, the show atmosphere very much IS a social thing. We have our horses at home and we have eachother, but it's usually just the two of us. A huge part of the show experience for us is that "barn camaraderie" we don't usually get. Sharing tack stalls, sharing FOOD, hanging out with everyone, hugging our out of town friends, the exhibitor dinners/watching freestyles, shopping in vendor trailers. Yes, we're there for the horses and the rides and the feedback, and occasionally I might have might sights on qualifying or YEAs, but the whole EXPERIENCE is really made by the rest of it. (And let's face it, when the rides aren't going well, sometimes the social part is all you have to get through the weekend :lol:).

So, I'm curious how many of you feel the same? I know plenty of folks that come down from their trailers long enough to take care of their horse or ride, and then head back to their trailers. But how many of you are attached enough to the social aspect of showing that showing while socially distancing just wouldn't be appealing? Because that's kind of where I'm at.... I didn't really realize our pizza party on Friday nights was kind of a big deal :lol:


(edited to add - I realize this train of thought only applies to ammy riders. I don't NEED to be in the show ring to demonstrate my or my students' success, and I don't need to market/promote any horses)

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Re: When do you think showing will resume again?

Postby Tanga » Thu May 07, 2020 5:28 pm

ironbessflint I can't afford to do the go shows for days and have the whole camraderie thing. I only haul in to close shows for my rides and that's it. It's all I can afford. Every two years I spend way too much money and do a championships and do some of that. I get it is nice. It sure was last September being part of it and seeing old friends and talking.

CA just put out a notice of new, lower requirements for AA championships. The first is in July. I put a comment on it that unless someone is showing a lot in the fall and Jan/Feb, which few people do, no one can even have those requirements, and how can it be safe to fly judges and have them in close proximity to a scribe.

I just don't see how it can work. I would love to show some more because this time has really allowed me to improve my horses and I'm really excited to show GP and know I can get good p/p and one tempis, but I don't see how it can work. We've lost a fair number of horse people to Covid. Kristi Wysocki's husband died, people in Europe have. Juan Matute, the 22 year old Spanish rider is in critical condition with a brain bleed, and I'm wondering if it is related because of all of the scary, scary strokes and weird conditions we see in young people.

blob
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Re: When do you think showing will resume again?

Postby blob » Thu May 07, 2020 6:03 pm

USDF is planning for a June 1 opening they've announced. And we've already heard here that our June shows will be open. I don't know if there will be more people than normal or less or how things will go. Will there be changes? I don't envy the organizers of the first few shows.

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Re: When do you think showing will resume again?

Postby Moutaineer » Sun May 10, 2020 5:20 am

Tanga, are you sure about Steve Wysocki?

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Re: When do you think showing will resume again?

Postby Tanga » Sun May 10, 2020 6:26 pm

Mountaineer I saw a post several places saying Kristi Wysocki's husband had died of Covid 19. I just searched it now and can't find it, but I know I saw it several places.

I just got notice from the show manager around here that shows will open June 1, so for June 10 shows, you need to get right in. There are also new release forms to sign. I don't know. I can see how most of it will work, but not the judges flying and scribing.

And I'm where we were the first to shut down. We've eased some restrictions and are into phase 2, but not a lot.

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Re: When do you think showing will resume again?

Postby Kelo » Thu May 14, 2020 7:16 pm

The rumor about Steve Wysocki isn't correct.

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Re: When do you think showing will resume again?

Postby Tanga » Fri May 15, 2020 2:40 am

Yeah. I guess not. I swear I saw it come up on my feed.

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Re: When do you think showing will resume again?

Postby Moutaineer » Fri May 15, 2020 4:42 am

Thank you Kelo.


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