Rip has low set neck conformation and it is a struggle to ride to be able to lift him out of the base of the neck. Ive had to use an upward lifting rein to show him how to lift up and out and he does better with a more open throat latch. But allowing stretch and he flattens again. It's difficult. Riding Gaila yesterday (his full sister) it just struck me how different they are to ride. Gaila has a nice set neck, not really high but up out of the shoulders much better than Rip, consequently she is very good in the bridle and just rides so different than he does.
Has anyone else ridden a problem neck like this? Rip lost some of his good top line over the winter when he had time off while we were dealing with my dad in and out of the hospital and ultimately his death. All of my horses just sat for awhile. So trying to rebuild that a bit now and keep him strong enough to do the work.
Neck conformation
Re: Neck conformation
Where does Rip's shoulder sit in relation to his hind end? I ask because a horse can have a low neck-set but still have an uphill shoulder. Or a horse can have a lower neck set and not be especially uphill in the shoulder (or even downhill). And i think the challenges and best ways to unlock vary depending on whether it's a low neck set but otherwise uphill build or not.
Re: Neck conformation
Blob Rip is pretty level in his top line. What I find interesting is that he has in the years since Mark's death changed tremendously in his withers. He went from wide mutton withers to actually has withers and much narrower to ride as he has lifted his sling.
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid ... =3&theater here he is showing his neck set and top line.
I will try to get a picture of him in canter or piaffe to show how he lifts but stays open in his throat latch. He does the same when asking for piaffe, he can come really high up out of the base of his neck but that is not his natural inclination. It does not help he is one to not toe the line:) he prefers sticking his toe over the line. When Cedar was here last November we were working with Gaila and some half steps, she had no issues coming up to the bridle and then lifting out of the base of the neck where Rip we really had to show him this by lifting the rein asking him to come up and out.
I guess my biggest issue is the stretch, because Rip will just flatten and fall on his front end. How to keep him up out and down not just down and out.
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid ... =3&theater here he is showing his neck set and top line.
I will try to get a picture of him in canter or piaffe to show how he lifts but stays open in his throat latch. He does the same when asking for piaffe, he can come really high up out of the base of his neck but that is not his natural inclination. It does not help he is one to not toe the line:) he prefers sticking his toe over the line. When Cedar was here last November we were working with Gaila and some half steps, she had no issues coming up to the bridle and then lifting out of the base of the neck where Rip we really had to show him this by lifting the rein asking him to come up and out.
I guess my biggest issue is the stretch, because Rip will just flatten and fall on his front end. How to keep him up out and down not just down and out.
Last edited by khall on Sun May 17, 2020 4:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Neck conformation
Khall--he sure is a handsome boy!
MM also sprung withers when she was 6 or 7 after having mutton chop withers for years. A saddle fitter once told me that it's usually around 1st/2nd level work that some previously flatter horses will suddenly get withers. I don't know if there's truth to her statement, but certainly true some horses seem to get them later than expected.
Have you done any trot poles at stretch trot? I like to do this a lot with horses because it usually really brings the back up and gets them loose. But I imagine it would also prevent RIP from getting too flat. in order to stretch and do poles (esp if they're slightly raised), he'll have to lift his chest
MM also sprung withers when she was 6 or 7 after having mutton chop withers for years. A saddle fitter once told me that it's usually around 1st/2nd level work that some previously flatter horses will suddenly get withers. I don't know if there's truth to her statement, but certainly true some horses seem to get them later than expected.
Have you done any trot poles at stretch trot? I like to do this a lot with horses because it usually really brings the back up and gets them loose. But I imagine it would also prevent RIP from getting too flat. in order to stretch and do poles (esp if they're slightly raised), he'll have to lift his chest
Re: Neck conformation
I have had to work with this type of conformation and agree with Blob. Use of jumping, pole/cavalletti work helped a lot along with the in hand work. I really had to show stinker pony with the use of both how to lift and reach out to the bit with the proper bascule so that the withers and whole forehand would come up and reach out. Thankfully being a 13 hand pony he was more maneuverable and malleable for me because I had to use two whips when working in hand so I could keep the back end stepping up and developing the strength and a whip in the other hand to help tap the base of his neck and front of his chest to remind him to lift and not 'crunch down'. If he had been a horse I would have likely needed the help of a second person to assist the hind end while I helped the forehand. Jumping was less problematic but I did have to use gymnastic exercises to keep him from diving.
Re: Neck conformation
I've found that not only is it how the neck is set on, but how they use their backs that really determines things. For the horses getting started, the side reins are adjusted to how the conformation is - so a horse that comes out low and needs to be lifted may start on the triple and then be moved up to one above the triple. A horse that is really high, may start at the triple and then go one above or one below depending on how they use themselves and how they adjust to being moved around the round pen. When you start riding, then you feel how they are actually moving and that again adjusts the side reins or how you hold the reins. For instance, Gala has an almost Friesian-y neck - so if you ride with too high of a hand and not enough oomph from behind, she retracts her neck and hangs. For Miro, who has a very well set on neck, that happens to be thick, I ride with a higher hand so that he opens and arcs out to the bridle.
Re: Neck conformation
Great pic of Rip. This is an interesting thread.
Re: Neck conformation
This is really interesting and applies to both of my two full sisters. The younger one (10) has a stunning neck set and balance in her look and at the lower levels was wonderful in looking like she is coming out of the top of her neck with a wonderful, long carriage. The older one (12) looks a little baroquish, compact, and never quite finished growing in the neck--it's shorter and wants to dip in front of the withers.
Especially recently the older one has mastered the piaffe, passage and one tempis. I was have trouble at first with a lot of diving in the changes and a too slow, irregular passage. I did a lot of in hand work when locked down and took her quicker, super easy piaffe and got her to keep that idea and just go forward in the piaffe.
The younger one with the much nicer neck (competing PSG and I-1) I have in the past year or so been having a really hard time getting her to carry the neck up, like you are explaining, even though she has a much better neck set. She is a much bigger horse with a longer back, neck, and just stunning overall balance and look. While her sister wants to be super light and suck back, she can be super heavy and wants to dive down and hang in the bridle. I've only recently ratcheted back to riding her in the same double with less leverage.
So, I don't think it is neck set, but just the horse. I am doing the same thing as you--trying to find what the issue is and make them stronger. With the older one it was all about getting her up and compact by moving her up behind and and shortening her without letting her get frantic. She was so super sensitive I used to never ride with a whip because she would get hysterical. So I started always riding with it, and when she got frantic, we just kept going. (I wasn't using it but for an occasional tap, but that didn't matter.) The first week we were doing 90 minute sessions. But, she's been great since then. Now I 99.9% just carry it, but I can give a tap and she will come under instead of getting frantic.
With the younger one, I've kind of been doing the same. She never reacted to the whip much, so I always used it and it was fine. But, I stopped riding her with it because I finally figured out that stiffness and heaviness she gets is her way of being nervous--100% opposite of her sister. So now I ask her to come up in front by getting her under behind through various exercises from piaffe in hand to exercises where I bop her with my legs to get under, and if she dives on the forehand we go forward and back until I can feel her back up and hind legs under. I was also just thinking about doing some more cavaletti, as ex vet said, to force that self carriage where she has to figure it out.
Especially recently the older one has mastered the piaffe, passage and one tempis. I was have trouble at first with a lot of diving in the changes and a too slow, irregular passage. I did a lot of in hand work when locked down and took her quicker, super easy piaffe and got her to keep that idea and just go forward in the piaffe.
The younger one with the much nicer neck (competing PSG and I-1) I have in the past year or so been having a really hard time getting her to carry the neck up, like you are explaining, even though she has a much better neck set. She is a much bigger horse with a longer back, neck, and just stunning overall balance and look. While her sister wants to be super light and suck back, she can be super heavy and wants to dive down and hang in the bridle. I've only recently ratcheted back to riding her in the same double with less leverage.
So, I don't think it is neck set, but just the horse. I am doing the same thing as you--trying to find what the issue is and make them stronger. With the older one it was all about getting her up and compact by moving her up behind and and shortening her without letting her get frantic. She was so super sensitive I used to never ride with a whip because she would get hysterical. So I started always riding with it, and when she got frantic, we just kept going. (I wasn't using it but for an occasional tap, but that didn't matter.) The first week we were doing 90 minute sessions. But, she's been great since then. Now I 99.9% just carry it, but I can give a tap and she will come under instead of getting frantic.
With the younger one, I've kind of been doing the same. She never reacted to the whip much, so I always used it and it was fine. But, I stopped riding her with it because I finally figured out that stiffness and heaviness she gets is her way of being nervous--100% opposite of her sister. So now I ask her to come up in front by getting her under behind through various exercises from piaffe in hand to exercises where I bop her with my legs to get under, and if she dives on the forehand we go forward and back until I can feel her back up and hind legs under. I was also just thinking about doing some more cavaletti, as ex vet said, to force that self carriage where she has to figure it out.
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Sue B
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Re: Neck conformation
I tend to work this horse (Rudy) deeper during warm up phase. Rudy's is by far the most difficult neck conformation I've ever dealt with. When he is going well, he has a lovely looking neck...long and arched, just beautiful. Rest of the time it's just like the picture. 
And this horse (Tio) more up and out. Tio, because he is less developed and strong, will otherwise drop down, or worse curl behind, and try to lean into the contact...especially if he is getting tired. yesterday we did roughly 150 trot-walk-trot transitions working on staying up and out and, of course, forward.
- Rudy side view 2018.jpg (45.09 KiB) Viewed 18325 times
And this horse (Tio) more up and out. Tio, because he is less developed and strong, will otherwise drop down, or worse curl behind, and try to lean into the contact...especially if he is getting tired. yesterday we did roughly 150 trot-walk-trot transitions working on staying up and out and, of course, forward.
- Tio 2018 side view.jpg (52.89 KiB) Viewed 18325 times
Re: Neck conformation
Sue B Oooh. Rudy has a tough, tough neck to deal with. Maybe doing some of the things like I am doing with my mares be not trying to do anything with the neck and just work on getting them up under behind so it has to come up naturally?
Re: Neck conformation
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This is a picture of Rocky from yesterday. She’s 13 this year. Feel free to make comments. Of course I have ideas about her conformation but I don’t really know for sure how it affects her training. I’m just trial and erroring!
I think her neck is okay. It seems to be set on high enough, the root higher than midway between point of shoulder and whither. I think it’s starting to muscle correctly and I hope it will show more development now that she is starting collection.
Looking at the different horse’s, I can understand what Tanga and Dresseur say about it not just being the neck...
There is an interesting article in the USDF Connection (May/June 2020) on Second level and collection. Comparing my own horses conformation to the “text book” pictures of the different degrees of collection, I can see why some horses take a lot longer to develop collection.
It would be interesting to have pictures of our horses in action to compare with the conformation shots.
Re: Neck conformation
demi--Not the best shot to judge conformation! She's so up under she looks butt high! But, her neck does look pretty nice. From this picture it looks tied in low, but I think it's just a weird shot.
I figured out how to add pictures. Ha! Let's see if this works. I can't find conformation shots, so I'll take some today, but here are some action shots. The first one is the older one last fall.
The second the younger one in the scary, scary, scary arena where she was super tight and tense.
I figured out how to add pictures. Ha! Let's see if this works. I can't find conformation shots, so I'll take some today, but here are some action shots. The first one is the older one last fall.
The second the younger one in the scary, scary, scary arena where she was super tight and tense.
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- This is the older one.
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- This is the younger one.
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Re: Neck conformation
That’s a beautiful picture, Tanga! The mare looks elegant and you make a pretty pair.
Unfortunately Rocky IS butt high. I looked at some diagrams from Deb Bennet’s books and i still think her neck is tied in higher than the mid point. Hard to tell for sure tho
Unfortunately Rocky IS butt high. I looked at some diagrams from Deb Bennet’s books and i still think her neck is tied in higher than the mid point. Hard to tell for sure tho
Re: Neck conformation
Demi, I don't think the neck is tied in too badly, but yes, it is a bit on the low side, the nice thing is that you have a decent length of neck, so she would have an easier time coming onto the bit than a really thick, short neck. If I was longing Rocky, my guess is that i'd have the side reins quite high, and in riding, a slightly higher hand that I would keep pushing the neck out with. Horses that are butt high can absolutely collect - the ones that have a easer time of it are more flexible at the LS joint. So in riding a butt high horse, tons of transitions, and going well-forward and doing in and outs in the gaits so that the back stays flexible and doesn't freeze under the rider's seat. But, while Rocky is butt high, he's not overly straight behind, so that helps you too.
Re: Neck conformation
Here is a picture of MM's neck. When I picked her from the online adoption pictures, one of the things i was looking for was a good neck-shoulder connection for dressage. A lot of the mustangs I saw have a lower neck and are built more like cutting horses than dressage horses. I kept an eye out for awhile until I found that appeared to be 'built for the job' based on 2 pictures (neither of which were conformation shots).
It's very easy for MM to be 'round' in the neck. It's also easy to keep her open in the throatlatch area in a neck frame that looks quite correct. However...because it's so easy for neck to be where you want it, it's very easy to get a fake-roundness that doesn't really involve her back. It's so easy for Mm to go around like a carousel horse (neck arched, back dropped, but still active joints--coming up, not under). I am ALWAYS working to get more engagement especially through her loin.
RP is more honest in this way. If he's round through the neck then he is round through the back and he is coming from behind. if he's not coming from behind and through the back, he is nose in the air going around like a crazy horse.
So, I'm not actually sure which is better/easier. It's nice that MM will always go around pleasantly, it's great that even if i do a mediocre job, her neck will always be well muscled in the right ways because it's how she naturally carries herself. But it's challenging to make sure we're REALLY doing it right. It's easy for her to do so many things without fulling using her body that we pay for it big time for the things where it's needed (I'm feeling it now big time with trying to get our changes that are not late behind). RP is much much harder to get to a nice looking place. And when he's not in a nice place, it's BAD. But when I get it, it's honest and solid and the there's no hole or gap.
It's very easy for MM to be 'round' in the neck. It's also easy to keep her open in the throatlatch area in a neck frame that looks quite correct. However...because it's so easy for neck to be where you want it, it's very easy to get a fake-roundness that doesn't really involve her back. It's so easy for Mm to go around like a carousel horse (neck arched, back dropped, but still active joints--coming up, not under). I am ALWAYS working to get more engagement especially through her loin.
RP is more honest in this way. If he's round through the neck then he is round through the back and he is coming from behind. if he's not coming from behind and through the back, he is nose in the air going around like a crazy horse.
So, I'm not actually sure which is better/easier. It's nice that MM will always go around pleasantly, it's great that even if i do a mediocre job, her neck will always be well muscled in the right ways because it's how she naturally carries herself. But it's challenging to make sure we're REALLY doing it right. It's easy for her to do so many things without fulling using her body that we pay for it big time for the things where it's needed (I'm feeling it now big time with trying to get our changes that are not late behind). RP is much much harder to get to a nice looking place. And when he's not in a nice place, it's BAD. But when I get it, it's honest and solid and the there's no hole or gap.
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Re: Neck conformation
Sue B yeah Rudy does have a difficult neck! I can see why you ride him deeper to get the neck and back engaged. Tio has a nice neck. He and my Gaila are similar, have that smooth transition from withers to neck. Gaila just feels so much more balanced in her going, Rip has always been a struggle. Gaila I can literally throw the reins away and not much changes, Rip he goes splat.
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid ... =3&theater
Here is a canter shot from last summer, Rip has learned to come up even more and have better collection in the canter now and is even a bit more open in the throat latch than this shot. It just how he has to be in order to sit more behind. I also wonder if the restriction he has from the cicatrix in his upper airway plays a part on him needing that open throat. You can hear him a bit when he is cantering any length, similar to a roarer but not so loud.
Tanga some lovely shots there! Would love to see some conformation shots.
Blob MM is beautiful! She looks very baroque.
demi I don't think your mare's neck is necessarily set low but she is butt high. Big old hip on her though!
Exvet and Blob, I don't regularly do caveletti or jumping with Rip but that has been on the list to do. I will start with lunging over them because he can be a bit reactive about them:/ Last time I played with him he went off bucking and farting after trotting through them, always has to be the class clown.
Dresseur, side reins never did much for Rip but I have been using an outside long line on him and I like what it does. As you say what happens behind is definitely reflected in his neck. That is why when I work the piaffe stuff he really elevates out of the base of the neck. I've also been doing some up close almost long reining to work on his engagement in the trot, you can see how he can lift when he powers through more. I think the passage work will help as well.
Did anyone catch the Equitopia lecture on line this week? There were two very good presenters on it, Jillian Kreinbring and a body worker who was excellent. So Jillian was talking about exercises for developing sling symmetry, these are what she recommends:
hill work and uneven terrain- Rip and I do this a couple of times a week
caveletti- on the agenda
small jumps- on the agenda just started with Joplin the other day, I do caveletti work with Joplin every week and some with Gaila
sure foot pads- just bought some of these, all have been on them, still need to watch the video that came with them
correct rein back- this was hard for Rip, much much better now, easy for Joplin, eh for Gaila
step up on pedestal- have not done this in a long time, my pedestal fell apart and got thrown away
spanish walk- Rip has a very expressive SW, starting it with Joplin and Gaila
I will report back when I can get back to work with him. Had steroid injection yesterday in my knee then got home and slipped and fell on my ass on slick concrete getting out of my truck wrenching the damn knee again. I am hobbling around right now. Before walking was not really hurting me, it was flexing it. Now after this last mishap walking is painful. F**K
The only positive to the quarantine is that my DH and DS are home and can help me care for the horses.
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid ... =3&theater
Here is a canter shot from last summer, Rip has learned to come up even more and have better collection in the canter now and is even a bit more open in the throat latch than this shot. It just how he has to be in order to sit more behind. I also wonder if the restriction he has from the cicatrix in his upper airway plays a part on him needing that open throat. You can hear him a bit when he is cantering any length, similar to a roarer but not so loud.
Tanga some lovely shots there! Would love to see some conformation shots.
Blob MM is beautiful! She looks very baroque.
demi I don't think your mare's neck is necessarily set low but she is butt high. Big old hip on her though!
Exvet and Blob, I don't regularly do caveletti or jumping with Rip but that has been on the list to do. I will start with lunging over them because he can be a bit reactive about them:/ Last time I played with him he went off bucking and farting after trotting through them, always has to be the class clown.
Dresseur, side reins never did much for Rip but I have been using an outside long line on him and I like what it does. As you say what happens behind is definitely reflected in his neck. That is why when I work the piaffe stuff he really elevates out of the base of the neck. I've also been doing some up close almost long reining to work on his engagement in the trot, you can see how he can lift when he powers through more. I think the passage work will help as well.
Did anyone catch the Equitopia lecture on line this week? There were two very good presenters on it, Jillian Kreinbring and a body worker who was excellent. So Jillian was talking about exercises for developing sling symmetry, these are what she recommends:
hill work and uneven terrain- Rip and I do this a couple of times a week
caveletti- on the agenda
small jumps- on the agenda just started with Joplin the other day, I do caveletti work with Joplin every week and some with Gaila
sure foot pads- just bought some of these, all have been on them, still need to watch the video that came with them
correct rein back- this was hard for Rip, much much better now, easy for Joplin, eh for Gaila
step up on pedestal- have not done this in a long time, my pedestal fell apart and got thrown away
spanish walk- Rip has a very expressive SW, starting it with Joplin and Gaila
I will report back when I can get back to work with him. Had steroid injection yesterday in my knee then got home and slipped and fell on my ass on slick concrete getting out of my truck wrenching the damn knee again. I am hobbling around right now. Before walking was not really hurting me, it was flexing it. Now after this last mishap walking is painful. F**K
The only positive to the quarantine is that my DH and DS are home and can help me care for the horses.
Re: Neck conformation
OK. I took conformation shots. While doing do, I discovered, once again, how the older one (Quilla) just never looks as good as her sister (Quinn) even though she is much more talented. They also kept closing their eyes. This one side by side was the best.
Quinn is the bigger, bay one in front and you can see how stunning and beautiful her neck set is, even though she is harder to get up.
Quilla is the shorter, black one, and really wants to stand like she is butt high. She does not have as nice of a neck set, but it does not seem to matter. The super collected work is so much easier for her.
Quinn is the bigger, bay one in front and you can see how stunning and beautiful her neck set is, even though she is harder to get up.
Quilla is the shorter, black one, and really wants to stand like she is butt high. She does not have as nice of a neck set, but it does not seem to matter. The super collected work is so much easier for her.
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Re: Neck conformation
demi wrote:
This is a picture of Rocky from yesterday. She’s 13 this year. Feel free to make comments. Of course I have ideas about her conformation but I don’t really know for sure how it affects her training. I’m just trial and erroring!
It would be interesting to have pictures of our horses in action to compare with the conformation shots.
I posted this many years ago OTOBs. When I did, I asked what level the peanut gallery thought this horse could possibly reach. I had many critical reviews, most patting me on the head for a poorly built horse that I loved. I then met with some ire after revealing that this horse was HOY for our GMO at second level, was scoring mid 60s at third level and then won high point at a level 3 USEF/USDF 4- ring show at his fourth level debut. This was Monty (now 22 going strong and sound, still competing at PSG and has earned 3 silver medals for his riders, the first being me) a section D welsh cob at 9 years old.
Here is a picture from a 2nd level test (taken a few years prior to the one above)
and then at PSG, I think he was 11 or 12.
Re: Neck conformation
Exvet, this perfectly illustrates that poor conformation is not a "death knell" on aspirations of higher level work. Do you need to get creative, do you need to work hard - yes of course. But you can teach a horse to carry itself better or even to the best of its ability. Temperament imo is more important than conformation.
And Tanga - I'm curious, does Quilla have a shorter back? Short backs seem to be able to be much better off in terms of talent for collection once you teach them that they can flex in the LS than a very long backed horse.
And Tanga - I'm curious, does Quilla have a shorter back? Short backs seem to be able to be much better off in terms of talent for collection once you teach them that they can flex in the LS than a very long backed horse.
Re: Neck conformation
Wow Exvet! That’s an encouraging and inspiring post. Thank you.
My trainer who has bred and trained several horses to the upper level, including GP, and also done very well in competition, loves my little mare. She has a huge engine and forward desire. When I first started training with her about two years ago, she asked my goals. I said I’d like to get to PSG. She said we can get there.
I wouldn’t ever say Rocky has a poor conformation. She has a very good conformation for a cow pony. Just not a dressage horse.
I posted this “in action” pic from several weeks ago in another thread but I lightened it up so it is easier to see. We’ve discussed my position problems and other things. (Thanks again for the help from this forum) Now that Rocky understands a few things, she is letting me sit much easier and I am able to relax and lengthen my legs mor under me, and flatten my back more. I hope to get new pics next week.
My trainer who has bred and trained several horses to the upper level, including GP, and also done very well in competition, loves my little mare. She has a huge engine and forward desire. When I first started training with her about two years ago, she asked my goals. I said I’d like to get to PSG. She said we can get there.
I wouldn’t ever say Rocky has a poor conformation. She has a very good conformation for a cow pony. Just not a dressage horse.
I posted this “in action” pic from several weeks ago in another thread but I lightened it up so it is easier to see. We’ve discussed my position problems and other things. (Thanks again for the help from this forum) Now that Rocky understands a few things, she is letting me sit much easier and I am able to relax and lengthen my legs mor under me, and flatten my back more. I hope to get new pics next week.
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Re: Neck conformation
Blob, I love MM’s conformation for dressage. I remember seeing some very nice action pics of her. In addition to the lovely neck, I remember her really being able to reach her hind legs under her.
Tanga, I also love your mares’ conformation shots. I’d take either one of them! Quinn is so elegant. I know you said she was very tense in the action pic you posted, but I still think she looks like a ballet dancer!
So I am loving seeing the differences. Exvet’s horses always look so powerful. And I know it isn’t just from their conformation but also from good training. The good training concentrates, or focuses the power, and then it has a powerful beauty of it’s own.
Tanga, I also love your mares’ conformation shots. I’d take either one of them! Quinn is so elegant. I know you said she was very tense in the action pic you posted, but I still think she looks like a ballet dancer!
So I am loving seeing the differences. Exvet’s horses always look so powerful. And I know it isn’t just from their conformation but also from good training. The good training concentrates, or focuses the power, and then it has a powerful beauty of it’s own.
Re: Neck conformation
I agree that disposition can go a long way in helping a horse accept the training and guidance to learn how to use itself better. I've been blessed with very willing dispositions over the years. Though Junior was born with a great canter, it has been a journey of its own to help him learn how to properly use his top line especially in the walk. It's all still a work in progress and one of the ongoing focuses is to help him forget about his under neck, stretch over his top line all the way over and down/through to his ears. Today's lesson definitely was proof that he's getting it; but, given his conformation (which isn't too bad) and breeding will require that I always require that 'piece' first before accepting anything else. It's just too easy for him to resort to leveraging the base of his neck for just about everything.
Re: Neck conformation
Well I could start another thread on dealing with challenging temperament! Rip is just now I feel starting to be able to take the pressure of the higher level work without too much objection. Last year when I went to Portugal and watched how they worked those horses, man they asked a lot of them. There was much pressure applied without the horses losing it. Rip I am just now being able to apply the pressure and not get as much push back as I did. He has been known to dirt ski you, throw legs around and get very very mouthy when working in hand as a young horse. And he is not the most motivated or big engine kind of horse. It has been a journey and more than one trainer has said that Rip is lucky that I kept him for he might have not ended so well.
Exvet yes I remember Monty well, you had great success with him and his other riders after you sold him. Definitely not your typical dressage mount!
I agree dresseur that temperament is more than half the battle. For me I have found the mare temperament suits me more, my mares have been much more workmanlike than my geldings have been, less temperamental more sensitive but sensible. But I have learned a ton from working Rip, how to stay grounded and not go down the rabbit hole as Mark used to say.
Anyway, I will add in some caveletti to the mix when I can get back to work with them all. Hate I will be missing some lovely cool May weather so unusual for Georgia!
Exvet yes I remember Monty well, you had great success with him and his other riders after you sold him. Definitely not your typical dressage mount!
I agree dresseur that temperament is more than half the battle. For me I have found the mare temperament suits me more, my mares have been much more workmanlike than my geldings have been, less temperamental more sensitive but sensible. But I have learned a ton from working Rip, how to stay grounded and not go down the rabbit hole as Mark used to say.
Anyway, I will add in some caveletti to the mix when I can get back to work with them all. Hate I will be missing some lovely cool May weather so unusual for Georgia!
Re: Neck conformation
It's nice to see so many examples of conformation that "shouldn't" be able to do it, but of course can. I am in complete agreement with everyone there is so much training, conditioning, and temperament involved that it's such a small factor.
Dresseur Yes, Quilla is shorter backed. Quinn is the exact copy of her mom, but much bigger. I have heard all of the stuff about long and short backed, and I don't find it to be true. Mom seems even longer backed than Quinn--you could put an extra saddle back there. She is collection queen, which is why I bought her as a messed up badly trained eight year just broke. She can p/p up the whazoo and do pirouettes forever.
demi--Yeah, Quinn always surprises me in videos or pictures, and I get a lot of comments about her being elegant and so light and attentive, especially when she is super tense and I feel like I may die and she feels like a freight train. That was not a freight train ride, but definitely really hard to keep her moving and not hanging. It is a conundrum with her--look and feel do not match. My last champs with her 2 1/2 years ago I had one of my best rides ever and ended up 4th I think in an insanely competitive 3rd level class with 35 people (Akiko Yamguchi won) with a second ride where she felt like she was going to blow at everything, and I just held on to the freight train and roughed it out. Someone watching said it looked so wonderful and light.
I'm actually thinking about trying something based on some comments. Compared to a lot of the "fancier" horses, while mine sit and carry weight correctly, they don't bring their front legs up as much (and you know how that matters!) The saddle maker Sheryl Lemke helped me so much in fixing my saddle issues (though I couldn't afford to buy one of her saddles) and made a comment about it. She knows my horses do a LOT of big hill work and was speculating that maybe they are so muscle bound from that, they are not as free. Maybe I should try some should stretching exercises. I've been doing that a bit. I was also watching a friend at the barn playing with her horse showing the Spanish walk. I was talking to her yesterday as she showed me a video where she has started a bit of piaffe with him at my encouragement. She said she had taught him that and to rear on command because he wanted to be on the forehand. I am thinking I am going to start more stretching of their front legs and teach them Spanish walk to help stretch them and free them up more and see what happens. Hey, I have time.
demi--Just a thought. The picture above reminds me of me before I finally (after 30 years) figured out my saddle wasn't working for me. I have a naturally way overarched back, and when I ride, if I sit up like you do, I looked like that, or I leaned forward even more to ease the pain in my back. When I finally tried the Lemke, and then bought this Albion, and it took me weeks to figure out, my back wasn't hurting and I didn't need to lean or overarch to ease the pain. The Albion has a huge, flat seat that I love and does not hold me on one place. I sit neutral in the middle, but can also tuck my seat a little and have a place to go further back, which I didn't used to be able to do. I was always afraid before that that would put too much pressure on the horse's back. (I am a LOT heavier than I look. Those pictures show how I look now, between 190 and 200. I think I might be able to get down to 180 if I got off this extra fat, but I haven't been below that since rail thin in high school.)
Dresseur Yes, Quilla is shorter backed. Quinn is the exact copy of her mom, but much bigger. I have heard all of the stuff about long and short backed, and I don't find it to be true. Mom seems even longer backed than Quinn--you could put an extra saddle back there. She is collection queen, which is why I bought her as a messed up badly trained eight year just broke. She can p/p up the whazoo and do pirouettes forever.
demi--Yeah, Quinn always surprises me in videos or pictures, and I get a lot of comments about her being elegant and so light and attentive, especially when she is super tense and I feel like I may die and she feels like a freight train. That was not a freight train ride, but definitely really hard to keep her moving and not hanging. It is a conundrum with her--look and feel do not match. My last champs with her 2 1/2 years ago I had one of my best rides ever and ended up 4th I think in an insanely competitive 3rd level class with 35 people (Akiko Yamguchi won) with a second ride where she felt like she was going to blow at everything, and I just held on to the freight train and roughed it out. Someone watching said it looked so wonderful and light.
I'm actually thinking about trying something based on some comments. Compared to a lot of the "fancier" horses, while mine sit and carry weight correctly, they don't bring their front legs up as much (and you know how that matters!) The saddle maker Sheryl Lemke helped me so much in fixing my saddle issues (though I couldn't afford to buy one of her saddles) and made a comment about it. She knows my horses do a LOT of big hill work and was speculating that maybe they are so muscle bound from that, they are not as free. Maybe I should try some should stretching exercises. I've been doing that a bit. I was also watching a friend at the barn playing with her horse showing the Spanish walk. I was talking to her yesterday as she showed me a video where she has started a bit of piaffe with him at my encouragement. She said she had taught him that and to rear on command because he wanted to be on the forehand. I am thinking I am going to start more stretching of their front legs and teach them Spanish walk to help stretch them and free them up more and see what happens. Hey, I have time.
demi--Just a thought. The picture above reminds me of me before I finally (after 30 years) figured out my saddle wasn't working for me. I have a naturally way overarched back, and when I ride, if I sit up like you do, I looked like that, or I leaned forward even more to ease the pain in my back. When I finally tried the Lemke, and then bought this Albion, and it took me weeks to figure out, my back wasn't hurting and I didn't need to lean or overarch to ease the pain. The Albion has a huge, flat seat that I love and does not hold me on one place. I sit neutral in the middle, but can also tuck my seat a little and have a place to go further back, which I didn't used to be able to do. I was always afraid before that that would put too much pressure on the horse's back. (I am a LOT heavier than I look. Those pictures show how I look now, between 190 and 200. I think I might be able to get down to 180 if I got off this extra fat, but I haven't been below that since rail thin in high school.)
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Kyra's Mom
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Re: Neck conformation
Kyra has umm shall we say interesting neck conformation. She is 1/2 Andalusian and 1/2 Appendix QH. The breeds kind of split. She has the cresty neck of the Andalusian but set on lower (than most purebred Andalusians) from the QH. That leaves her with a giant dip in front of her withers...which kept rising and rising. She doesn't have a shark fin wither...I call her withers more of a camel hump 
. Her neck is just where the two breeds didn't mesh really well.
Of course my pics are too big and I don't know how to resize them.
Despite her conformation, I don't feel her neck set has not caused too many problems. She isn't nearly as horizontal as my last horse. She had a very low set neck and man was it hard to "put her together". Kyra can certainly use her neck against you but she is very capable of correctly stretching and coming over the back. Tension from whatever reason is what has her using her neck incorrectly... no different than any other horse. Straightforward rode her last year for a few months and I must say, she developed some really nice balance...really carrying herself and able to use herself so much better. All those nice exercises removed her inclination to stick out the bottom of her neck and use it for balance.
It would be more esthetically more pleasing if her neck connected to her body better but I don't feel that it has held her back training wise.
Susan
. Her neck is just where the two breeds didn't mesh really well. Of course my pics are too big and I don't know how to resize them.
Despite her conformation, I don't feel her neck set has not caused too many problems. She isn't nearly as horizontal as my last horse. She had a very low set neck and man was it hard to "put her together". Kyra can certainly use her neck against you but she is very capable of correctly stretching and coming over the back. Tension from whatever reason is what has her using her neck incorrectly... no different than any other horse. Straightforward rode her last year for a few months and I must say, she developed some really nice balance...really carrying herself and able to use herself so much better. All those nice exercises removed her inclination to stick out the bottom of her neck and use it for balance.
It would be more esthetically more pleasing if her neck connected to her body better but I don't feel that it has held her back training wise.
Susan
from susamorg on the UDBB
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piedmontfields
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Re: Neck conformation
I appreciate this topic and all of the necks! I think neck conformation feeds quite a bit into how we must ride/train the horse we have. As for Emi, her neck is short and thick, and also has a dip (maybe not giant) in front of her withers. She tends to look on the bit even when she is not through, but I also need to ride her with an open enough throat latch way for her to have room for that thick neck.
- Em side view.jpg (229.17 KiB) Viewed 18079 times
Re: Neck conformation
Agree with that, Piedmontfields! I was cruising around on Queso yesterday and was struck by the realization that there's nowhere to hide an imperfect connection with him. He's the sort that needs to be very straight and correct through his body (especially his shoulders) before he can be honestly on the bit. That's a function of his neck/shoulder connection more than his neck itself, I think.
Unfortunately my only semi-decent standing side shots are documenting just how dirty he gets:
Unfortunately my only semi-decent standing side shots are documenting just how dirty he gets:
Re: Neck conformation
Ponichiwa Queso has a nice neck that comes nicely out of his shoulders! He is such a cutie!!
https://www.facebook.com/keri.hall.35/v ... 903110565/ please no critiques of the rider the owner (not my horse but my boarder), this is Juliet a TB/Perch that I have been helping with for awhile. Her neck is not necessarily a problem it is her conformation in other ways. Like exvet's horse she is butt high, she is also long in the back and weak in the loin. Her go to is to just get heavy in the hand, we also address her way of going in a similar way we do Rip. Asking with the rein for her to stay more up and open. She is a good minded mare, clear thinking and rather sensitive but not stupid. Can be a bit slow behind but has an engine which she had been taught to motor rather than carry. She is coming along, it just takes time with such a big mare (1400 lbs and rider is 100 lbs!) I really think if we can get half steps/piaffe on her will make a big difference. She is quite a physical ride still, in that the aids still need to be a bit overboard to help her not my favorite type of ride.
Tried to get some video of Rip on line, was very unsuccessful! Could not video and lunge at the same time.
https://www.facebook.com/keri.hall.35/v ... 903110565/ please no critiques of the rider the owner (not my horse but my boarder), this is Juliet a TB/Perch that I have been helping with for awhile. Her neck is not necessarily a problem it is her conformation in other ways. Like exvet's horse she is butt high, she is also long in the back and weak in the loin. Her go to is to just get heavy in the hand, we also address her way of going in a similar way we do Rip. Asking with the rein for her to stay more up and open. She is a good minded mare, clear thinking and rather sensitive but not stupid. Can be a bit slow behind but has an engine which she had been taught to motor rather than carry. She is coming along, it just takes time with such a big mare (1400 lbs and rider is 100 lbs!) I really think if we can get half steps/piaffe on her will make a big difference. She is quite a physical ride still, in that the aids still need to be a bit overboard to help her not my favorite type of ride.
Tried to get some video of Rip on line, was very unsuccessful! Could not video and lunge at the same time.
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StraightForward
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Re: Neck conformation
Kyra's Mom wrote:Of course my pics are too big and I don't know how to resize them.
I don't have any confo shots but this is after she'd been in work about 3 months last summer, I believe:
I need to get some new photos of Annabelle. This one is about two years old, and even though she hasn't been in proper work most of that time, her neck has developed, especially in the trapezius as she matured from age 5 to 7. She can tend to get a little low, but doesn't tend to really curl or get short in the neck. I mean, she can, but you'd really have to ride her there. If anything, she goes more above the bit and out with her chin when the going gets tough. Fortunately, she is not as downhill as she appears in this photo, which was 2 months before she got hurt, so near her peak fitness.
Current ridden photo of her typical frame when things aren't going sideways:
Keep calm and canter on.
Re: Neck conformation
Yeah, Queso is a hunk!! He even looks good dirty!
Nice comparison of Annabelle’s conformation picture vs. her working picture. Thanks for posting them.
Kyra looks good! It looks like she is wearing little black Mary Janes on her front feet. Cute!
This folllowing pic is from yesterday and I am posting it as a comparison to the riding picture I posted up thread, and also a comparison to her conformation picture. I am happy with the way she is accepting the shorter rein now and carrying herself more up. This pic isn’t as up as the pic where my back is hollow, but if I let her carry her head a little lower like this, I am then able to relax my legs down a little and also flatten my back, still on a shorter rein. It’s a compromise that I think is necessary for now.
I have another picture from the day before where I had her head higher and my back was flat but there was too much tension in both of us. I’m learning a lot from taking frequent videos. I watch them right after the ride so I can remember the feel and the little things that were happening. Then I take screen shots and place them side by side so I can compare.
Nice comparison of Annabelle’s conformation picture vs. her working picture. Thanks for posting them.
Kyra looks good! It looks like she is wearing little black Mary Janes on her front feet. Cute!
This folllowing pic is from yesterday and I am posting it as a comparison to the riding picture I posted up thread, and also a comparison to her conformation picture. I am happy with the way she is accepting the shorter rein now and carrying herself more up. This pic isn’t as up as the pic where my back is hollow, but if I let her carry her head a little lower like this, I am then able to relax my legs down a little and also flatten my back, still on a shorter rein. It’s a compromise that I think is necessary for now.
- C55B599B-9236-42A0-85B4-86607FBC3B6B.png (142.25 KiB) Viewed 17905 times
I have another picture from the day before where I had her head higher and my back was flat but there was too much tension in both of us. I’m learning a lot from taking frequent videos. I watch them right after the ride so I can remember the feel and the little things that were happening. Then I take screen shots and place them side by side so I can compare.
Re: Neck conformation
Demi-- I don't think that photo shows her too low at all. It takes quite a bit of strength to carry that front 1/4 of their bodies up and balanced, and she might not just have it yet. You guys look great!
I'll also pass along the kind compliments to Queso. Can't resist, so here's a picture of him trying out a western saddle the other day:
I'll also pass along the kind compliments to Queso. Can't resist, so here's a picture of him trying out a western saddle the other day:
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Kyra's Mom
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Re: Neck conformation
https://www.flickr.com/photos/188453742 ... ed-public/
Here is my dromedary...I wasn't kidding.
Susan
Here is my dromedary...I wasn't kidding.
Susan
from susamorg on the UDBB
Re: Neck conformation
Kyra's Mom wrote:https://www.flickr.com/photos/188453742@N03/49898564696/in/dateposted-public/
Here is my dromedary...I wasn't kidding.
Susan
Wow. That's interesting. He actually has a beautiful neck set. It almost looks like he had an accident and damaged something.
Re: Neck conformation
Kyra's mom/Susan that is interesting. Looks to me like Kyra has the typical crest from the Iberian side which gives the dip a bigger emphasis.
This is Joplin who is Lusitano/Han/TB cross, she definitely has the Lusitano crest to her neck, it is even more pronounced than what this picture shows.
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid ... =3&theater
He dam was the Han/TB and had a somewhat lower set neck but not as bad as Rip. Joplin has a very nice neck but not as upright as most Iberians. She also does not have the up and down movement that the Iberians can have.
I did lunge Rip over trot poles the other day with no hysterics, so am happy that he was minding his manners which gives me hope I can play with them under saddle as well. Would like to try that pole challenge that blob posted.
This is Joplin who is Lusitano/Han/TB cross, she definitely has the Lusitano crest to her neck, it is even more pronounced than what this picture shows.
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid ... =3&theater
He dam was the Han/TB and had a somewhat lower set neck but not as bad as Rip. Joplin has a very nice neck but not as upright as most Iberians. She also does not have the up and down movement that the Iberians can have.
I did lunge Rip over trot poles the other day with no hysterics, so am happy that he was minding his manners which gives me hope I can play with them under saddle as well. Would like to try that pole challenge that blob posted.
Re: Neck conformation
It's not about the neck conformation. It's about the hind end. They will fool you into trying to fix it with the reins but it's actually the hind end you have to fix.
Re: Neck conformation
Boudicea I completely disagree with you after working with my Oldenburg who I started this thread about. I had been working piaffe half steps for awhile with Rip and he was really struggling. I finally one day decided to lift the rein asking him to come up and out even a bit above the bit and there was the piaffe. He could not understand the hind end until I showed him how to get his head and neck up with the reins. Now the hind end does sit more and the front end comes up but it was not until I literally showed him with the reins that he understood.
Not all horses will follow the norm. A horse I taught piaffe years ago I used the whip on top of the HQs usually a big no no because the horse will usually pop up their HQs rather than sit down. Well this mare sat right down with a wonderful piaffe (a GP rider I worked with was very envious how pure that mare's piaffe was) but usually the whip on top of the croup just does not elicit the correct response. It did with that mare.
My mantra is don't be afraid to experiment. Not all horses are the same.
Not all horses will follow the norm. A horse I taught piaffe years ago I used the whip on top of the HQs usually a big no no because the horse will usually pop up their HQs rather than sit down. Well this mare sat right down with a wonderful piaffe (a GP rider I worked with was very envious how pure that mare's piaffe was) but usually the whip on top of the croup just does not elicit the correct response. It did with that mare.
My mantra is don't be afraid to experiment. Not all horses are the same.
Re: Neck conformation
khall--Interesting point. My younger mare is like that. Tapping for the piaffe got a lot of kicks ups sky high, in hand or in the saddle. When I held her head up, she got it.
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Kyra's Mom
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Re: Neck conformation
Tanga wrote:Kyra's Mom wrote:https://www.flickr.com/photos/188453742@N03/49898564696/in/dateposted-public/
Here is my dromedary...I wasn't kidding.
Susan
Wow. That's interesting. He actually has a beautiful neck set. It almost looks like he had an accident and damaged something.
Not that I know of. I have owned her since she was coming 2 (she turns 18 on May 19th). Of course as a youngster, she had 'no' withers.
I have been involved with another horse that had a neck like this.
Eons ago I had a free lease on an aged Arab/Morgan/TB gelding that had a neck even more extreme than hers...in his older days (late 20's). I suspect hers will go the same as gravity starts winning in another 5-10 years.
Like I said, not the most pleasant look but it really does not seem to effect her under saddle. I am wondering if there is some 'uniqueness' in her nuchal ligament anatomy. I say that vs injury or defect as it does not seem to affect her ability to do anything under saddle...at least so far. Here is a short video of her farting around in turnout showing that she is fairly athletic and living up to her genes. Pardon the dirt and her muzzle. She was wet so the dirt wasn't coming off and she can eat herself sick on the early cool weather grass in about 30 minutes...hence the muzzle.
https://youtu.be/ZB2Dg0_-YtE
Susan
from susamorg on the UDBB
Re: Neck conformation
I am wondering if there is some 'uniqueness' in her nuchal ligament anatomy.
I too wonder about the nuchal ligament and either its attachments or its structure in that area. I too have dealt with that conformation. One in a TB mare, another was an arab gelding. I did not find it compromising their ability to work over the back or use of their hind end. Seemed mostly cosmetic and less mechanical.
Also in regards to helping horses learn piaffe and better use of hind end, for me the huge eye opener was not just getting them more up and open (lift the head and stretch up through the neck) but using the second whip to get my guys to STOP scrunching down at the base of the neck/chest. With the stinker pony I literally had to stretch (not with force) his head and neck up and open and see the lengthening over the top line and lift at the base of his neck and bottom of his chest. Small taps to the chest at the bottom while directing him to reach out to the bit instead of compressing into a ball helped. The intention of keeping it moving forward wasn't enough because he could be a forward moving scrunched up ball all day long and have wonderful flexing of the hocks right up under his midsection yet all the while doing a great impression of a trapezoid in the best of moments and a bouncing ball at the worst.
I too wonder about the nuchal ligament and either its attachments or its structure in that area. I too have dealt with that conformation. One in a TB mare, another was an arab gelding. I did not find it compromising their ability to work over the back or use of their hind end. Seemed mostly cosmetic and less mechanical.
Also in regards to helping horses learn piaffe and better use of hind end, for me the huge eye opener was not just getting them more up and open (lift the head and stretch up through the neck) but using the second whip to get my guys to STOP scrunching down at the base of the neck/chest. With the stinker pony I literally had to stretch (not with force) his head and neck up and open and see the lengthening over the top line and lift at the base of his neck and bottom of his chest. Small taps to the chest at the bottom while directing him to reach out to the bit instead of compressing into a ball helped. The intention of keeping it moving forward wasn't enough because he could be a forward moving scrunched up ball all day long and have wonderful flexing of the hocks right up under his midsection yet all the while doing a great impression of a trapezoid in the best of moments and a bouncing ball at the worst.
Re: Neck conformation
Exactly Tanga and exvet (though I did not have to use anything on the base of the neck with Rip, just the reins indicating up and out was all he needed)
Teaching Rip piaffe has been quite the long journey and I have addressed it many ways. Mark first started with him in hand with showing him up and out by using the bit on the corners of the mouth (not bars, sorry) applying light pressure until he lifted out of the base of the neck. We did both counted walk stuff and direct sideways movement so he could get the idea of articulating up and down more. I did lots of trot halt RB and trot in hand, we worked with targeting the hinds teaching him to flex from the whip just the hind legs.
Then when I started working with Cedar she had me do more diagnolizing which was very difficult and he would try and drag you around, kick strike you name it. That is when I started the up and out with the rein US and it was like a light bulb to Rip that he could get his front legs and neck up and sit more behind. Diagnolizing can still be difficult for Rip but he has quit dragging us around and the more forward piaffe I can now ask to come more on the spot. His flexion in his hind legs is much more pronounced, this from a horse who could be slow behind.
The Valenca's put videos out fairly frequently on their FB page, they addressed this issue as well and also talked about using the rein and the back when riding to get the horse to lift out of the base of the neck. Karen Rohlf also targets the base of the neck when working on the ground to help the horses to understand how to lift up in their sling.
Teaching Rip piaffe has been quite the long journey and I have addressed it many ways. Mark first started with him in hand with showing him up and out by using the bit on the corners of the mouth (not bars, sorry) applying light pressure until he lifted out of the base of the neck. We did both counted walk stuff and direct sideways movement so he could get the idea of articulating up and down more. I did lots of trot halt RB and trot in hand, we worked with targeting the hinds teaching him to flex from the whip just the hind legs.
Then when I started working with Cedar she had me do more diagnolizing which was very difficult and he would try and drag you around, kick strike you name it. That is when I started the up and out with the rein US and it was like a light bulb to Rip that he could get his front legs and neck up and sit more behind. Diagnolizing can still be difficult for Rip but he has quit dragging us around and the more forward piaffe I can now ask to come more on the spot. His flexion in his hind legs is much more pronounced, this from a horse who could be slow behind.
The Valenca's put videos out fairly frequently on their FB page, they addressed this issue as well and also talked about using the rein and the back when riding to get the horse to lift out of the base of the neck. Karen Rohlf also targets the base of the neck when working on the ground to help the horses to understand how to lift up in their sling.
Re: Neck conformation
I have not ridden too many warmbloods or horses bred for dressage but I have ridden a lot of weirdly put together horses and I've often found that although it may seem like the neck is a problem especially with really funky neck conformation, it's almost always the hind end. That doesn't mean the reins are not involved in the fix though. But it's about fixing the hind end not the front.
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