working with the energy conservationist horse

[khall]

Another topic I've been contemplating is working with my WBs that are not the most energetic and even up to being sticky or not light in their feet. It just is who they are. I work hard to train them to be light to the aids and lighter in their feet. It also is why I am so in love with Joplin who is not that way period. She is very light footed and self sustaining in her movement when being ridden.

What I notice with my WBs is two things, when I ask sometimes I will get an explosion then I have their energy up (Rip is more likely to do this than Gaila) It can be a spectacular explosion. Then most often they will go to work after the explosion. Sometimes though it rattles their equilibrium. I'm working against their nature (Rip is the more contrary of the two) is it fair to push this hard? Going against their innate self?

My preference to ride is a lighter more sensitive horse than what my WBs are, but they are mine to learn from as well. It is definitely work to ride them, Rip more so than Gaila but their training has come a long way.

[blob]

Khall, you might find this thread from awhile back interesting: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3200

It has a bunch of us chiming in about work we do with horses that are not so sensitive or hot.

I think there are several types of less energetic horses: Horses that are just very laid back and always require push push push. Horses that start out sluggy, but then once you get them warmed up and power up their engine, they cruise. Horses that are lazy only when they are bored. Horses that simply try to find the most energy efficient way to complete a task. And i'm sure there are many more types as well!

With MM (not a warmblood, but energy conserver to the extreme) a lot of it is just about her adjusting to whatever she considers baseline. If i'm squeezing every stride, she calibrates that to 0/neutral and then i need to use even more leg when I want a reaction. The best thing with her has been to ride completely leg off unless/until I need it. This was and continues to be hard to train MYSELF to do consistently, but man has it made a difference.

MM also gets lazy when she's bored. If i do somethign new and different (whether it's 'dressage' work or cross training), she's forward. If i spend multiple rides working on any particular exercise or movement, it's not going to go well.

Because i've found that she's actually reasonably sensitive when she's mentally engaged and i'm not nagging, it's hard for me to think that i'm asking too much of her. It's more that I can't keep up with her!

[khall]

Blob I do think most of Rip's issue are mental, he just has that push back to him and always has. As for riding him, he is not a physically demanding ride anymore, he is pretty light to the aids but it takes me mentally being up and there to get him to work with me and sometimes we clash over it. I think I need more relationship building. I'm not a gelding person! He just likes to push the line, my mares especially Joplin is just so much more workmanlike.

[AmityBee]

What I notice with my WBs is two things, when I ask sometimes I will get an explosion then I have their energy up (Rip is more likely to do this than Gaila) It can be a spectacular explosion. Then most often they will go to work after the explosion. Sometimes though it rattles their equilibrium. I'm working against their nature (Rip is the more contrary of the two) is it fair to push this hard? Going against their innate self?

I'm not sure in what way you are asking that'll end in an "explosion" and makes you question if you are pushing too hard. But what I've learned in more than 10 years with a very energy efficient horse is

a) work smarter, not harder

b) listen to your horse

Crispin is the kind of horse that will take care and look after himself first. Many people would probably just call him stubborn. Knowing him better, I disagree.

I always joke that, at the same time I have one of the easiest and most difficult horses to ride. You can put pretty much anyone on him and he's going to take care of that rider. But If you want him to really work and be light and reactive you have to be smart about it. Yes, sometimes he'll need a swift kick in the butt but most of the time, the more I push, the more he's going to push back. He is always looking for the easy way out and usually quite ingenious about it.

During the first few years under saddle I let myself be pushed into the school of pushing forward. It was alway "more, more, more" and very frustrating for me (and I suspect for the horse as well). I'm NOT doing that anymore. However, I will have him in front of my leg. What blob describes is very close to what I try to do as well. If I have to push more that he's willing to give, he's behind my leg and I will not have that. But I also have to remind myself not to push. That's more difficult than it sounds.

Part of the solution for us was to figure out why Crispin wasn't willing to move off the leg easily and finding a way to fix that. It's actually a bit of a no brainer. He's always been weak on the left hind leg, (diagnosed with arthitis too last year) tries not to carry himself on that leg, which makes him very crooked and downhill pushing every impuls forward onto the forehand and into the ground. That's a massive waste of energy.

So, most of the work under saddle is going into straightening, strenghtening the left hind leg and getting him off the forehand. For us that's lateral movements. A lot of changes SI, HI, travers, passade, walk pirouettes. But also counted walk, halt, reinback. At this point I have no issues at the walk anymore. Trot is still work in progress. On bad days I'll trot very little and use canter to get him going. I love the exercise from counted walk to canter (or CC) to counted walk. Like I said, no pushing and kicking him around anymore. If he's not off the leg I'll do something else that is at the same time helping him to move better and actually harder work. So when I ask again, trotting off the leg will suddenly BE the most energy efficient solution for the horse.

[khall]

I'll try to explain more fully what I deal with Rip. In dressage work there is a level of pressure you apply in the work you do. When in Portugal last year riding and watching them work those horses I saw how much pressure the Lusitano's can take and still go to work. In particular we were working with one of the stallions (most of the horses I worked with were stallions) in piaffe, one at the head and one to the side each with a line on him. He was a bit of a punk that day feeling his stallioness. The instructor pushed him pretty hard to get his mind focused and thinking piaffe. He went to work with a beautiful piaffe. Rip would have dirt skied you or kicked out or tried SW. He wants to push back when asked to work harder. I've had to be judicious in my asking for this harder work to stay safe, have sported a nice bruise on my hip from pushing too hard and Rip letting fly with a hind leg. He is definitely better, but he just does not give of himself as easily as my mares do especially Joplin who is an overachiever type.

Rip is well versed in lateral work. Has been worked in hand from when he first started his journey with me as a young horse (I bred and raised and done all the work on him). This work does require a level of giving from the horse and that is just not Rip's forte. He would be the kid at the back of the room shooting spit balls at the teacher, that is just his nature. Is he better? oh definitely. I just wonder if I could do a better job of getting him to work with me. I just wished he could understand that energy he puts into pushing back would make it easier on us all if he put it into the work itself. He is just a challenging horse, has been from the day he was born.

I want Rip to buy into the work better and not give me the middle hoof as exvet says. The intelligence is there, he is a smart horse. Maybe too smart his mind in always going. I have noticed that once he embraces the harder work it does focus his mind better. If I can get to that point without the pushback or the I don't wanna feel to it.

[StraightForward]

Reading with interest! Khall, Rip sounds similar to how I expect Tesla to be. It's made it difficult to even teach her to lunge properly. Well, she knows how, she just wants to have an argument about it. Every. Single. Time. Then she finally capitulates and will trot around in a lovely frame, stretched over the back and almost seeming to enjoy herself. She seems to enjoy being more with me though (like she lunges better if I have a short line and run closer to her) so I'm hoping she'll be a little more agreeable to work under saddle.

Then there is Annabelle, who has western pleasure breeding on her top side and just tends to get stuck behind the leg and locked into a comfy amble if she gets the chance. She is not at all explosive or confrontational, so with her, if she doesn't give me more trot energy, she gets a kick and a gallop around the arena until she gets more reactive. After spending most of my ride last night doing that, I admit I came home and started ogling some online ads for spicy-looking Andalusians. Jumping does help for her, so I'm starting to incorporate that once a week, now that I feel she can handle it. Since she is an agreeable type, I think she'll get better with more fitness, but the process right now is not exactly pretty and I'm longing for a more sensitive "go" button.

[Sue B]

As you know, I have spicy TB and laid back WB, so I feel your frustration.

Two things...1) Stop comparing Rip to your lovely mares. He has his own qualities that I know you appreciate. Stick with that.
2) I have found that when working with Tio, less is definitely more. Lemme expand on that....

Tio is very much like Rip and always has been--as in "no, no, no, explode, oh alright I'll do it." When he was a 2yr old, he once almost dislocated my hip as he plowed by me after first refusing to step up and walk next to me, and later kicked me in the head when I tried to get him to trot up next to me so I could show him in-hand. So, yeah, I get it. There are days when he does. not. want. to be in front of my leg and at the same time is acting spicy, as in I want to buck/bolt/whatever. I have found, over the years, the best way to handle that is extreme patience. So, if I'm in the saddle, I sit quietly and unrhythmically tap, tap, tap the whip behind my leg. With every gesture to move forward tapping stops, he gets praised. Often he balks again and I rinse and repeat. Bad days, I may need to do this half a dozen times, and it will feel like a serious time waster. But, those are also the days I get lovely, forward work out of him so it really is worth it. When he's giving me the middle hoof, I do not escalate, nor do I back down. I just keep repeating the same basic request over and over and over and over, until he responds. Sort of the "resistence is futile" method of training. It works because there is literally nothing for him to fight or push back against, so there is no need for explosion or escalation on his part. He is every bit as sensitive and willing as my hot little TB, he simply expresses it in a very different way. He (Rip or Tio) needs the space and time to process your/my requests without escalating pressure. Trust the process, be excessively patient.

I write this because a few years ago, I considered sending him off to a trainer to finally get "trained." He was being his obnoxious self, and I was ready to just get him trained as a hunter and sell him, but then I studied his expression while I was doing some in-hand work and had an epiphany. It was true, I could ship him off, and somebody younger and stronger than I could bully him into being a better trained mount OR they could push too far and turn him into an untrustworthy bucking SOB by teaching him to fight back. His face stays soft (and a little worried) when he's having his "moments"--he's not a BAD horse, just a DIFFERENT horse. In the end, if like me, you have no real timeline, then try stepping back a bit. You may find yourself moving forward faster.

ETA: Tio is built like a brick outhouse, so there is literally no way, little ol me can out muscle him.

[demi]

This is an interesting thread. I have different problems with my horse, but I like reading about how you all have, or are in the process of, figuring out your energy conserving horses.

[khall]

SueB you hit the nail on the head!! I do believe Tio and Rip are related:) So very very similar. I know I cannot compare, it is hard not to when I am riding green as grass Joplin with a grin from ear to ear and Rip I just had one of those days the other day with him he was full of himself and one explosion after the other. I really had thought he was maturing and handling the work better then to have such a difficult day with him. They keep you humble!!

SF there is no way I would be kicking on with Rip like you did with Anabelle. I am cautious when riding light seat or two point with him. He has to be in the right frame of mind. Mark had told me when I went Iberian (bred for Joplin who is half Lusitano) I would not want to go back to the WBs. I agree. I've ridden both Andalusians and Lusitano's in Spain and Portugal. I won't breed or buy a WB again.

I definitely have learned so much from working with Rip. He definitely dictates to a certain degree how that work goes because like SueB I don't want to try to force him yet I do have to be able to ask him.

Thanks for the response! Nice knowing I am not the only one out here in the I don't wanna land.

[mari]

I'm going to dovetail onto Sue B's post. My half-wb gelding is not the exploding type, and halt is his favourite gait...

For the first few years of our partnership, I faithfully tried the escalation method, where you ask first at a 1 (the softest aid you wish (dream?) you want a response to), and then level up until you get a response, then praise and try at a 1 again immediately. Never really worked for him. If you escalate, he hunkers down and absorbs the whip or the spur, and nothing much gets accomplished.

So then my instructor rode him for a bit a few years back while I was out with an injury. And we found that what works for him is NAGGING. He hates it. Short repetitive sharp taps with the whip, not in a rhythm. Works with the leg too. He'll ignore the first 2 or 3, then get all twitchy and energetic with irritation and then, lo and behold, the feet and the mind both get into gear. Anathema, because I've been drilled to never nag, but with him it works. Go figure...

[khall]

That's interesting mari and yes I can see how this works with these type who want to argue. If you back them into a corner they will come out swinging but if you are more subtle about it they will acquiesce without too much drama.

I can get both still and it depends on what I am asking for. Rip finds piaffe work to be especially difficult, at least piaffe work more in place. The more forward half steps he does not really argue about. I'm trying to find what motivates without the drama, not always successful because I do have to push sometimes for the energy needed. He is better, way better, just some days I push too hard or he has a more contentious day.

I guess I just see where this type of horse really demands us as riders to think things through even more than we would with one who offers more. We have to be as tricky in the mind as they are. I have literally said to Rip before if you just focused and listened and tried we would be over and done with!! But no, his mind is going in opposing directions I really would like to get him to buy into the harder work better if I could.

I did have an epiphany one day with him, he was acting the fool on the line so I turned it around into ok lets do some harder work then. That day he buckled down, it does not always happen that he will buckle down. I do feel that the lighter I can be the better he accepts. I'm not always successful though.

He in no way would ever be a horse to throw just anyone on! He would take advantage of anyone who was not ready for his mentality. He is not for everyone definitely not for most AA. Too complicated. Mark called him monkey minded, his mind is always going though I do see the concentration improve with more demanding work.

[Imperini]

Pal definitely fits into the energy conservationist category but I know she is perfectly capable of being light and forward. Mostly she's cooperative these days as long as I'm committed to it. I don't think she's the type that would have an explosion ever so that's a plus for being able to try different things and figure out what works best for us. The biggest thing I've learned for her is variety. One day tons of transitions might really be the ticket to a good ride and another day we might have to have several really forward canter laps around the ring and another day maybe pole work. We aren't currently jumping but if she has a jump day every week or so then she's way better for all the flat rides too.

I think she's just smart and she gets bored so if she doesn't feel like whatever I'm asking is worth the effort then she's prepared to just ignore no matter what. Like the short period she went through of just stopping when I'd put my leg on. Thankfully I'm quite happy with our partnership these days even if sometimes it's still a lot of effort to convince her to also put in some effort. I think you could pretty much put anyone on her for a plod (although maybe less so these days with the minimal turnout and tons of alfalfa which is standard for this area) but she would never put in a good effort for a beginner and she might bully them into thinking she's not as good and solid as she really is.

[Srhorselady]

My senior schoolmaster is definitely an energy conservationist and always has been even when younger. He can halt on the aid so fast you get whip lash, but every request for an upward transition is met with a momentary “are you sure?”, before complying. He is now retired, but when we were working seriously I would sharpen his aids with LOTS of transitions. After a warmup with lots of consistent transitions he was much sharper. However, this had to be done consistently or it didn’t happen. He has a very mellow temperament and rarely explodes, although it CAN happen, but he is more likely to get mulish and lean on the bit etc to express his displeasure. However, he is the horse of choice for every beginner rider. He is totally trustworthy and if the beginning rider doesn’t take charge he will happily do so! However, it DOES take a good rider to get his best Or even his mediocre!

BTW just out of curiosity when people use the term “warmblood cross”, what is usually meant? For instance is it a warmblood cross Because it wasn’t inspected/registered? Usually a thoroughbred/warmblood? Both parents crosses? I’m curious because my guy is a registered Hanoverian and I’ve never thought of him as a warmblood cross, but his sire is Matcho, a French AngloArab imported To Celle for improvement. Technically since his sire wasn’t a warmblood... Just a language thing I know since warmbloods are registry’s not breeds, but curious about how other people think of this.