shoes and performance

A forum for discussion of training in dressage
blob
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1752
Joined: Wed Oct 17, 2018 9:37 pm

shoes and performance

Postby blob » Sun Aug 02, 2020 11:12 pm

We've had some shoe discussions on this board before. And I've always come from the standpoint of: give the horse what he/she needs. MM has always had good feet--good enough for me never to really think about her needing shoes in order to keep her comfortable or maintain integrity of the hoof.

My trainer, however, has been wondering if giving her shoes might make it easier for her to take on the higher level work we're working on now and free up her movement. And of course, if shoes make the work easier for her, then I would like to support her.

So, I was curious if others have had the experience of performance/movement improving on a horse that has "good feet" when given shoes?

my worries about put on shoes are these:
*I've heard that once you put shoes on a horse it can be hard/take some time to get them back to barefoot comfortably because you've now drilled holes in the feet. I have no idea if this is true, or if it's just an old wive's tale. But it makes me nervous
*MM's feet grow pretty fast and I'm worried that will make it hard to keep shoes on
*I live in a humid and wet part of the country. We get a decent amount of rain pretty much all year round and in the summer it's paired with high heat. I'm worried the conditions will make it hard to keep shoes on

exvet
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1588
Joined: Tue Oct 20, 2015 12:28 pm
Location: Scottsdale

Re: shoes and performance

Postby exvet » Sun Aug 02, 2020 11:34 pm

I can only speak from my personal, direct experience. Keep in mind that I live in an area with very tough terrain. All of my current horses, including my new one, have very tough, correct, large feet. All have been sound barefoot; but, to trail ride here you really should either put boots on every time you ride (at least in the front) or have shoes. I feel it's better for dressage horses to either be barefoot all around or shoes all around; but, even when I do plan to shoe I start with shoes in front on my young ones for the first bit and add back shoes when we start to get closer to second level work. Since I do both competitive trail and dressage my horses generally get to a point where they wear shoes on all 4 and I think they do much better. Having said that, I have transitioned two back to barefoot. The welsh cob (aka stinker pony) did fine and is sound as a dollar with respect to his feet. He is retired; so, he's no longer ridden. The other one was an older swedish warmblood and he did not do so well. His feet were not like the welsh cobs or mustangs. I put shoes back on him only to have him founder the next year due to endocrine diseases and other age related issues. He was about 24.

Dresseur
500 post plus club
Posts: 867
Joined: Wed Oct 14, 2015 12:16 am

Re: shoes and performance

Postby Dresseur » Mon Aug 03, 2020 1:23 am

Miro has great feet, grows a decent amount with hard horn and good soles. We had to put shoes on because with his paddock antics in the stone dust, he was wearing his hinds down to nubs and we felt it was better to put shoes on than to contend with possible crushed heels. He rode well before, but I feel like the hind shoes made a difference in his confidence behind. I wish I could have left him barefoot, my guess is he would have been fine had it not been for the stone dust in the paddocks and his pacing and spinning (despite buddies and lots of hay). If he ever stops acting like that in turnout, we'll likely pull shoes again. I've only ever had issues with pulling shoes when horses had weak horn to begin with.

blob
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1752
Joined: Wed Oct 17, 2018 9:37 pm

Re: shoes and performance

Postby blob » Mon Aug 03, 2020 2:19 am

I would definitely either do shoes all around if I went that route.

It's interesting to hear, Dresseur, that even though you think the shoes gave Miro more confidence behind, you'd like to have him barefoot.

MM is very quiet in pasture and we don't really deal with hard or difficult terrain. Walking on gravel is about as difficult as it gets and she's usually sure footed about it.

It's a tricky question for me because it's not about soundness or comfort, but rather ease and performance. I'll also talk to my farrier but I'm fairly sure he will say it's up to me given that there's no active issue with her feet. But he might have a perspective on how practical it'll be to keep shoes on her given how fast her feet grow.

heddylamar
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1405
Joined: Wed Oct 14, 2015 3:04 pm
Location: Texas (o_O)

Re: shoes and performance

Postby heddylamar » Mon Aug 03, 2020 2:40 am

blob wrote:I'll also talk to my farrier but I'm fairly sure he will say it's up to me given that there's no active issue with her feet. But he might have a perspective on how practical it'll be to keep shoes on her given how fast her feet grow.

This was going to be my advice. But, I don't shoe unless the farrier or vet advise me to.

My old eventer was shod late in her career to stave off lameness — it only sorta worked. We finished that season, I pulled her shoes, and retired her to lower level jumping for fun. She was perfectly sound without shoes, so long as we weren't jumping 3'9" and up.
Last edited by heddylamar on Mon Aug 03, 2020 3:14 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Flight
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1811
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2015 11:39 pm
Location: Australia

Re: shoes and performance

Postby Flight » Mon Aug 03, 2020 2:51 am

My horses are barefoot and I like it this way, more for my convenience. I have asked the same question and the answer has been - all the top dressage horses have shoes.
I'm not very competitive so I'm keeping mine barefoot for now, but in my area everyone that is 'serious' shoes their horses.

blob
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1752
Joined: Wed Oct 17, 2018 9:37 pm

Re: shoes and performance

Postby blob » Mon Aug 03, 2020 11:51 am

Flight wrote:My horses are barefoot and I like it this way, more for my convenience. I have asked the same question and the answer has been - all the top dressage horses have shoes.
I'm not very competitive so I'm keeping mine barefoot for now, but in my area everyone that is 'serious' shoes their horses.


All the top dressage horses have shoes, but is that because they genuinely need shoes? Or is it because their owners/trainers would prefer to have shoes than added work of maintaining their feet without them? Or is it because they do actually do better with shoes?

MM and I are not trying to go to the olympics, nor are we ever going to hang with the best of them. But, are some of our current training struggles made worse/harder because she doesn't have the foot support she needs?

so many questions!

User avatar
Flight
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1811
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2015 11:39 pm
Location: Australia

Re: shoes and performance

Postby Flight » Mon Aug 03, 2020 12:08 pm

I did ask that too :D And was told - well no one is barefoot so shoes must be better.

You know you can try a set of shoes for time and if there's no difference, then go back to barefoot. My big horse has had shoes on twice due to a crack that needed to be cut back, and while it helped for that purpose, he was fine when he was back to no shoes.

exvet
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1588
Joined: Tue Oct 20, 2015 12:28 pm
Location: Scottsdale

Re: shoes and performance

Postby exvet » Mon Aug 03, 2020 1:03 pm

Interesting note imo, I watched the rides at Hickstead and there was one horse that was shod in front and not in back. It wasn't a top performance but I don't think it had all that much to do with the shoeing.

User avatar
Chisamba
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 4453
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2015 10:33 pm
Location: New Jersey

Re: shoes and performance

Postby Chisamba » Mon Aug 03, 2020 2:01 pm

I mostly keep my horses barefoot. I prefer not to shoe unless the horse is one of those who just cannot manage work without shoes. That said I have not had a horse consistently comfortable at the second level and above work without the help of shoes. It made quite a big difference to Kimba's confidence in her gaits. As for Caliburn, his toes just wear too short with regular work, so he has shoes on. Saiph came to me with some soundness problems, and will likely need shoes for the rest of her life. That said, I do remove the shoes for two months in the winter, because my horses go out and I do not like having to put snow pads and studs on. I have to work them lightly for about two weeks in the first stage of barefoot then they seem to do just fine until it is time to shoe again.

What is the main, observable difference. Confidence in medium gaits, confidence in canter transitions, at times when she is barefoot, Kimba will "test" the ground before striding out in her medium trot. She will quite often feel pacey ( which is her go to tentativeness due to being a half standardbred) in the canter without her shoes. None of my three riding horses have bad feet, actually they all have good feet. Then i have shoes on the flat footed thoroughbred rescue because she cannot walk around the pasture without feeling sore without them

blob
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1752
Joined: Wed Oct 17, 2018 9:37 pm

Re: shoes and performance

Postby blob » Mon Aug 03, 2020 2:26 pm

Interesting to hear about Kimba's confidence, Chisamba. This is exactly the type of thing I am wondering about for MM. Extended gaits and changes are places where trainer thinks MM is having a bit more trouble than she should.

Interesting about Caliburn's toes, also. MM tends to wear off so that she has a squared off toe. Farrier thinks that's partly because of stomping for flies. But I wonder if there is something else going on too.

Ryeissa
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 2349
Joined: Mon Oct 12, 2015 1:41 pm

Re: shoes and performance

Postby Ryeissa » Mon Aug 03, 2020 4:10 pm

yes, just had this experience. My horse has been barefoot from 4 to 16. He moved barns and due to the soil was getting chipped feet. I added front shoes and it has been positive for him in his dressage work. He has more expression in the canter and feels more confident.
I had no lameness, sole, or other problems either way, but this has been a positive for me. The shoes are very simple and basic.

Sue B
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1185
Joined: Mon Oct 12, 2015 2:55 pm
Location: Spud country (Idaho)

Re: shoes and performance

Postby Sue B » Mon Aug 03, 2020 4:39 pm

Same with Rudy. He is another barefoot horse who benefits greatly from shoes in the "higher" level work. Gaits become more expressive and he seems to engage better(?). I pull them off once winter comes and he seems to have no issues going back and forth so...

Tanga
500 post plus club
Posts: 959
Joined: Sat Apr 13, 2019 2:32 am

Re: shoes and performance

Postby Tanga » Mon Aug 03, 2020 5:05 pm

I hate when people say "all" of the top competition horses have shoes, so they must be better. "All" people leave their horses in stalls all day long, never trail ride their horses, put boots and wraps on all of the time, don't turn out with other horses, etc. Bullshit. There are a WHOLE lot of things people do just because everyone always has.

None of my horses have shoes and I have never put them on any horse except my Appy, who had shoes and I didn't know any better, so I couldn't transition out of them. All of them have gone FEI, all of them live in CA terrain/weather with wet winters and rock hard, uneven ground in the summer. I had to put some on my older mare for awhile when she had an inflammed bursa, and that helped her, but after she got better, I could feel they were making it worse for her. Think about it. How does hard metal that does not expand and contract give them more of a feel than their own feet? And it does not help them collect, extend, or any of that. You can look at the videos of my tow from this weekend and see if you feel them being barefoot is inhibiting their movement.

Of course, if a horse has bad feet and shoes are needed to help that, they need them. But I have never seen a horse that needs them. And I see more and more people around here competing barefoot. And I do their feet. In the spring and the summer their feet grow much faster, and if shoes are helping, they really need to be redone every 3/4 weeks to keep them balanced. Without shoes they can wear them off, or I can trim them a bit all of the time a little to keep them more in balance.

User avatar
Chisamba
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 4453
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2015 10:33 pm
Location: New Jersey

Re: shoes and performance

Postby Chisamba » Mon Aug 03, 2020 6:03 pm

you say that you have never seen a horse that needs shoes. hey. I have never seen a rape, that doesn't mean it never happens.

so. I rescued a horse, her name is Hero. she is an OTTB who went through a low end auction lame. She had a fracture, had surgery, but never came sound. she hobbled around her pasture, was constantly underweight and miserable. she was adopted as a companion horse but her adopter asked me to take her back. I tried to get weight on her, gave her the dietary supplements recommended for feet , poured high quality feed down her, free choice hay, etc. Finally I asked the vet who had done the surgery to do an exam preliminary to euthanasia.

He arrived and we went to catch her. apparently she recognized him from the surgery and post surgical treatment because she galloped away from us. the vet laughed at me. He said if the surgery hadn't worked there is no way she could have galloped like that. now note this mare had been pasture lame for 10 years. I caught her and brought her to the vet, and he said FFS , she needs shoes. so shoes she got. she gained weight with ease,, stayed sound for riding, now she rides, lessons, low jumps. 10 years of pain because i thought all horses could be pasture sound barefoot.

how does Iron help a hoof. it keeps the sole safe fron bruising objects . it prevents uneven wear, and like shoes on a human allows one to.put forth maximum exertion without worrying about stepping on something painfully. now that said, bad shies make me sore, so no doubt poory applied shoes would not be beneficial to the horse

my horse is more confident in shoes. I rest her feet every winter and every summer I consider keeping her barefoot for health, expense and convenience. but i put shoes on when she gets tentative and the difference is immediate

Ryeissa
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 2349
Joined: Mon Oct 12, 2015 1:41 pm

Re: shoes and performance

Postby Ryeissa » Mon Aug 03, 2020 6:39 pm

Tanga wrote:
Of course, if a horse has bad feet and shoes are needed to help that, they need them. But I have never seen a horse that needs them. And I see more and more people around here competing barefoot. And I do their feet. In the spring and the summer their feet grow much faster, and if shoes are helping, they really need to be redone every 3/4 weeks to keep them balanced. Without shoes they can wear them off, or I can trim them a bit all of the time a little to keep them more in balance.


Weellllll I had no choice a month ago. My horse's feet were chipping so badly he was in real danger. I guess there is a huge difference in how horses do in various soils. I had no issues at my other barns, the new one has a different composition so my horse needed something different.
Also, you are in CA - do your horses get turnout? my horse is on 5 acres daily, so had I kept him in a paddock he would still be barefoot.

User avatar
chantal
500 post plus club
Posts: 527
Joined: Thu Oct 15, 2015 12:05 am
Location: Maryland

Re: shoes and performance

Postby chantal » Mon Aug 03, 2020 9:11 pm

Following. My guys is barefoot at the moment, has been all his life. But I will do what he needs so I am learning.

Tanga
500 post plus club
Posts: 959
Joined: Sat Apr 13, 2019 2:32 am

Re: shoes and performance

Postby Tanga » Mon Aug 03, 2020 9:27 pm

I said, I have never seen a horse that needs shoes, but if they need them they need them. I'm not sure how that's hard to misinterpret. I know a lot of TB type feet can be really hard to deal with and need shoes. Horses that have always had them can be very hard to transition out, which is why I didn't with my Appy. Almost all of the rest of my horses I have bred, so leaving them barefoot their whole lives helps.

Ryeissa--Mine are out in "pasture" and walk on asphalt, rocks, uneven rock hard ground all of the time. It's hard and dry in the summer and can be wet to nonstop muddy all winter. I don't know what you mean by chipping. The edges of their feet chip a little, yes. That's not an issue. If huge chunks of feet come off, that's an issue.

khall
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 2515
Joined: Mon Oct 12, 2015 1:47 am

Re: shoes and performance

Postby khall » Mon Aug 03, 2020 9:53 pm

I am in Georgia as is blob and it can be hot muggy wet and hard sometimes rocky ground depending on time of year and where you are in our state. All of my horses except for Joplin my Lusitano X have good feet but they are all still shod. Two in front (one is my retired mare Gallie at 25 and had foundered in 2015) and Gaila and two all the way around Rip and Joplin. My boarder a TB/Perch X has to have front shoes and in particular has to wear a heart bar on her RF because she has a low foot on that side, needs the support. Was in rear shoes until recently, transitioned no problem to barefoot behind again.

When Rip started in back shoes I could definitely tell a difference when we put back shoes on. Just more stable and willing to engage. Joplin the quality of back feet improved so much with back shoes on.

I rarely see horses here in Georgia that can go barefoot and work hard very much like exvet says second level and above work. That's just what I've seen in almost 40 years of horse keeping here in Georgia.

Dresseur
500 post plus club
Posts: 867
Joined: Wed Oct 14, 2015 12:16 am

Re: shoes and performance

Postby Dresseur » Tue Aug 04, 2020 12:27 am

I think you are very lucky that you haven’t seen any horses that have needed shoes. I’ve seen many, but I also have a lot of experience with off track TBs. Miro has great feet, but unfortunately, his circumstances changed because of his ridiculousness in turnout.

My choices were, put him in a group situation to see if that limited pacing (where he has proven himself to be a complete klutz, resulting in 2 lengthy rehabs), limit turnout (nope, healthier for them to be outside as much as they’ll tolerate and he already has a 4 hour timer), hoof boots for turnout (tried several and they all rubbed horribly) or just put shoes on him. I chose the shoes and am happy I did. My horse is happy, sound and feels better in the work with his heels supported.

User avatar
Chisamba
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 4453
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2015 10:33 pm
Location: New Jersey

Re: shoes and performance

Postby Chisamba » Tue Aug 04, 2020 12:41 am

actually Dresseur, our Sneakers was one who.just had to be shod

Dresseur
500 post plus club
Posts: 867
Joined: Wed Oct 14, 2015 12:16 am

Re: shoes and performance

Postby Dresseur » Tue Aug 04, 2020 12:45 am

Chisamba, I was thinking of her too as I wrote that. God awful feet. And I tried for years to lessen the dependence on shoes. No dice.

blob
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1752
Joined: Wed Oct 17, 2018 9:37 pm

Re: shoes and performance

Postby blob » Tue Aug 04, 2020 2:03 am

khall wrote:
I rarely see horses here in Georgia that can go barefoot and work hard very much like exvet says second level and above work. That's just what I've seen in almost 40 years of horse keeping here in Georgia.


Curious when your horses give signs that they can't stay in hard work above second level, what signs do you see? Do you see actual problems with the feet or just performance not where it should be?

I ask because that farrier says MM's feet are great. She's never ouchy or sore on them. And she is in work 5x a week and shows no sign of lameness or anything like that. So, in that sense, she's not telling me she needs shoes. However, as I said, my trainer thinks some of our trouble spots might not be trouble spots if she had shoes--in particular our medium trot. He will be the first to admit that he personally shoes everything. But he also thinks that for a horse that has a hind leg as active as MM does, she should also be striding out more than she tends to want to. There could of course be many other reasons for this!

So, I am curious when you and others say you've found the horses needed it for second level work and above, what were the signs? Were the feet chipping? Was their trouble maintaining soundness in a demanding working schedule? Or was it, that work quality wasn't quite what it seemed it could/should be?


I also want to thank everyone for your thoughtful responses so far. This has all given me a lot to think about and consider.

Dresseur
500 post plus club
Posts: 867
Joined: Wed Oct 14, 2015 12:16 am

Re: shoes and performance

Postby Dresseur » Tue Aug 04, 2020 2:22 am

Those that I’ve felt needed shoes felt a bit tentative behind... or that transitions weren’t as crisp or weight bearing as I would likely that mediums and extensions didn’t really dig in a push. Sometimes that there were uneven wear patterns or worn areas/low heels. Those were ones I tried, and if it made a difference great, if not, you can pull shoes. Foot quality (angles) sole depth and quality of the frog and horn play a role too. I watch for changes there, or feet growing more or less slowly or changes in wear patterns that is not season related that could indicate the horse using themselves differently.

There were no soundness issues, or obvious chips, but just a feeling from observation and feeling the work that something was changing or the horse was struggling a bit due to hoof quality/wear. Barefoot is amazing if you can keep it. Miro was schooling all I1 before we put shoes on, and like I said- his was a wear issue related to turnout that took his heels to nubs, which was creating bad palmar angles and crushed heels.

khall
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 2515
Joined: Mon Oct 12, 2015 1:47 am

Re: shoes and performance

Postby khall » Tue Aug 04, 2020 2:26 am

Blob it was the difference when Rip went into back shoes vs barefoot behind. He felt more stable and happier in his work. The quality of his feet were fine. It was not like he had to wear back shoes to enhance the quality of the hoof (Joplin did, she had bad toe cracks that are gone now with rear shoes) we put them on much like you are trying to decide now to see what would happen. He was more forward and easy in his work after the rear shoes compared to not having them.

Kyra's Mom
500 post plus club
Posts: 859
Joined: Tue Oct 20, 2015 2:04 am
Location: Sunny? Southern Idaho

Re: shoes and performance

Postby Kyra's Mom » Tue Aug 04, 2020 3:15 am

I am of the mindset that they get what they need.

That said, Kyra is barefoot in her pen and I boot her (all 4) to ride...usually from April/May until November.
So...technically, she isn't barefoot.

The one downside of the place I board is the footing. It is gravelly and rocky. It is on top of lava rock and around here, most people don't do a 'proper' arena. They grade a spot (maybe), throw down sand and viola, an arena. Even if it weren't for the gravel from the (wrong) base that has worked into the sand, the lava rocks migrate. During the fall/winter wet season with good moisture in the ground, the rocks disappear and for the work I do during that time, she hasn't had much problem. The rocks emerge again in spring with a vengeance after the freeze/thaw cycle over winter and the ground dries out (we are technically high desert). She definitely needs some protection.

Why no shoes you say? I tried and she was a bitch to shoe (pardon the language) only getting worse over time despite me spending hours working with her and tapping her feet. She has small, hard feet and from the get-go acted like every strike of the hammer to nail went straight to her brain. She was never quicked or injured. She had no problems with any other aspect of shoeing like burning on a hot shoe...you would think if she was going to lose her mind that would do it but no.
Yes, I could have gotten the vet out with the happy juice or now there is Dormosedan gel but at the time, I told her we would try BF. She was shod about the same time frame as I boot her (spring-->autumn) from ages 4-6. She was boarded at a different farm with better footing at that time and when we moved back to the current barn It became apparent that for us to do any serious work in that arena, she needed some kind of protection. I actually think that for that footing, boots are better than shoes. I feel for complete protection, she would need full pads. She has a narrow foot with deep sulci and I can tell you, she can pack rocks in those barefoot and I think shoes without pads would be even worse for that problem.

As Chisamba said about her horses, I feel Kyra is definitely more confident with foot protection...at least in that footing. She isn't 'feeling' for the ground, she just goes and is much more willing to move out when I ask.

I wish TPTB (USEF) would allow boots. I don't get it. You can put all manner of material in the foot and hide it under a pad then nail all manner/styles of shoes on. Other than breed shows that have weight limits and directives for type of pads and packing, the shoe never comes off. If they are worried about something 'hidden' in a boot?, it takes about 10 seconds to pull it off. They feel they are too heavy and affect the gait? I really don't know what their rationale is for making them illegal. Whatever, I probably won't be showing any recognized shows so won't worry my little head about it. She has always handled the footing at the shows I took her to BF although we were only riding 1st level.

I prefer the boots. They are cheaper. Since she was 6 and we gave up on shoes (now 18), I think I have bought 3 sets of hinds and 4 sets of fronts. Most of the boots are about $90 each. Way cheaper than shoes ($1260 spread out over 12 years--not bad) although due to my infirmities, she didn't have a lot of mileage from age 12-now and I probably would have had to buy couple more sets for each end. Still cheaper than shoeing every 6 weeks.
She has had no problems in them including all the lateral work.

There is my 2 cents and what I do with my horse and what I feel works for us.

Susan
from susamorg on the UDBB

Ryeissa
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 2349
Joined: Mon Oct 12, 2015 1:41 pm

Re: shoes and performance

Postby Ryeissa » Tue Aug 04, 2020 3:53 pm

Tanga wrote:Ryeissa--Mine are out in "pasture" and walk on asphalt, rocks, uneven rock hard ground all of the time. It's hard and dry in the summer and can be wet to nonstop muddy all winter. I don't know what you mean by chipping. The edges of their feet chip a little, yes. That's not an issue. If huge chunks of feet come off, that's an issue.


Jagged edges. My horse was loosing stability since the structure was being compromised. Also having a rough edge makes the horse more prone to injuring other legs since they are sharp. It's great you have been able to make it work! I was able to for about 9 months then things got to the point the farrier almost had nothing to work with, so if you need shoes the message is don't wait too long till the chips are so bad the horse can't get shoes on. (In a week!!!!)

Sue B
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1185
Joined: Mon Oct 12, 2015 2:55 pm
Location: Spud country (Idaho)

Re: shoes and performance

Postby Sue B » Tue Aug 04, 2020 5:20 pm

Rudy "tells" me he wants shoes by a number of ways. 1) He becomes reluctant to go out down the gravel/dirt roads, 2) he loses the jump in his canter in the arena and 3)loses quality in the hp. The last is more problamatic the more chipped the edges of his feet are. It doesn't help to rasp because he literally runs out of foot.

Tio, otoh, would prefer to be in shoes year round, but sadly for him, it simply isn't possible in the winter so he makes due.

Tanga
500 post plus club
Posts: 959
Joined: Sat Apr 13, 2019 2:32 am

Re: shoes and performance

Postby Tanga » Tue Aug 04, 2020 5:34 pm

Ryeissa wrote:
Tanga wrote:Ryeissa--Mine are out in "pasture" and walk on asphalt, rocks, uneven rock hard ground all of the time. It's hard and dry in the summer and can be wet to nonstop muddy all winter. I don't know what you mean by chipping. The edges of their feet chip a little, yes. That's not an issue. If huge chunks of feet come off, that's an issue.


Jagged edges. My horse was loosing stability since the structure was being compromised. Also having a rough edge makes the horse more prone to injuring other legs since they are sharp. It's great you have been able to make it work! I was able to for about 9 months then things got to the point the farrier almost had nothing to work with, so if you need shoes the message is don't wait too long till the chips are so bad the horse can't get shoes on. (In a week!!!!)


I still don't know what jagged edges means. Yes, they get little jagged edges. You can put a file on it to clean it up. I don't think any sharp hoof edges could cause injury, but it's easy enough to file it smooth. It sounds more like your issue is that the hooves wear down too fast. We don't get the unending wet weather in the summer here, which may soften the feet enough that they wear down much faster.

Tanga
500 post plus club
Posts: 959
Joined: Sat Apr 13, 2019 2:32 am

Re: shoes and performance

Postby Tanga » Tue Aug 04, 2020 5:35 pm

Tanga wrote:
Ryeissa wrote:
Tanga wrote:Ryeissa--Mine are out in "pasture" and walk on asphalt, rocks, uneven rock hard ground all of the time. It's hard and dry in the summer and can be wet to nonstop muddy all winter. I don't know what you mean by chipping. The edges of their feet chip a little, yes. That's not an issue. If huge chunks of feet come off, that's an issue.


Jagged edges. My horse was loosing stability since the structure was being compromised. Also having a rough edge makes the horse more prone to injuring other legs since they are sharp. It's great you have been able to make it work! I was able to for about 9 months then things got to the point the farrier almost had nothing to work with, so if you need shoes the message is don't wait too long till the chips are so bad the horse can't get shoes on. (In a week!!!!)


I still don't know what jagged edges means. Yes, they get little jagged edges. You can put a file on it to clean it up. I don't think any sharp hoof edges could cause injury, but it's easy enough to file it smooth. It sounds more like your issue is that the hooves wear down too fast. We don't get the unending wet weather in the summer here, which may soften the feet enough that they wear down much faster.

The time of year it can be an issue is in the spring here, where it's still wet from winter, but the ground hardens, so the softer feet on hard ground, especially with rocks on the hard ground, can be an issue. My older mare can get ouchy, but Durasole solves the issue. The two younger ones pretty much never have issues.

Ryeissa
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 2349
Joined: Mon Oct 12, 2015 1:41 pm

Re: shoes and performance

Postby Ryeissa » Wed Aug 05, 2020 1:37 pm

Tanga wrote:
Tanga wrote:
Ryeissa wrote:
Jagged edges. My horse was loosing stability since the structure was being compromised. Also having a rough edge makes the horse more prone to injuring other legs since they are sharp. It's great you have been able to make it work! I was able to for about 9 months then things got to the point the farrier almost had nothing to work with, so if you need shoes the message is don't wait too long till the chips are so bad the horse can't get shoes on. (In a week!!!!)


I still don't know what jagged edges means. Yes, they get little jagged edges. You can put a file on it to clean it up. I don't think any sharp hoof edges could cause injury, but it's easy enough to file it smooth. It sounds more like your issue is that the hooves wear down too fast. We don't get the unending wet weather in the summer here, which may soften the feet enough that they wear down much faster.

The time of year it can be an issue is in the spring here, where it's still wet from winter, but the ground hardens, so the softer feet on hard ground, especially with rocks on the hard ground, can be an issue. My older mare can get ouchy, but Durasole solves the issue. The two younger ones pretty much never have issues.


Glad you haven't had any real problems with chipping. No its not the hoof wearing down, huge difference.

Ryeissa
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 2349
Joined: Mon Oct 12, 2015 1:41 pm

Re: shoes and performance

Postby Ryeissa » Wed Aug 05, 2020 1:38 pm

Now through the first re-set with no issues with the "new shoes". The back feet are holding steady being barefoot. I use Farrier Fix 3x a week for maintenance.

User avatar
PhoenixRising
500 post plus club
Posts: 541
Joined: Mon Oct 12, 2015 2:25 pm
Location: Missouri

Re: shoes and performance

Postby PhoenixRising » Wed Aug 05, 2020 2:03 pm

This thread is so interesting to me. Phoenix is 6 now and has never had shoes. Every single farrier she's had has commented that she has great feet. I have never noticed any hesitation or ouchiness, not even when it comes to trotting on gravel. I always figured it was a waste of money with her on pasture board and all the mud.

BUT the clinician I work with often and trust once asked if she had shoes. I said no and asked if she should, and she said not now but probably in the future. She said she'll tell me when/if she thinks she needs them (she also agreed with not putting them on her as a pasture board horse).

Really interesting that some feel their horse is more confident, even in arena work, with shoes. How would I know if they'd help her stepping behind if I've never noticed a difference, but then again have nothing to compare it to either with her. Maybe it'll become obvious?

She'll be barefoot as long as possible any way you look at it. But I'm not against them if she really does need them eventually.
Go confidently in the direction of your dreams, live the life you've imagined!

Ryeissa
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 2349
Joined: Mon Oct 12, 2015 1:41 pm

Re: shoes and performance

Postby Ryeissa » Wed Aug 05, 2020 5:40 pm

Now that I was essentially forced to do shoes or else my horse was in trouble- I have also noticed more canter expression. It wasn't magical or anything, but noticable. It won't make a good canter where there wasn't one, but I liked how it felt with shoes. I would say a 5-10% bonus.

demi
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 2218
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2015 7:02 pm
Location: Texas

Re: shoes and performance

Postby demi » Wed Aug 05, 2020 9:19 pm

Rocky has very good feet. Hard, good size, good shape. She is barefoot and I’d like to keep it that way. However, if she ever needed shoes, I’d go that route. Fortunately I have the world’s best farrier (well, he’s really good!) and I’d be comfortable having him shoe her if necessary.

I can imagine noticing if a horse went better in shoes. I would guess horses are not completely unlike humans. Personally, I go barefoot in the house because I think it’s good for my feet, but when I exercise, I definitely need the support of shoes. Age has made my feet unbalanced (think bunions, eeewww ick). Having the right shoes makes a huge difference in being able to walk solidly. I can run up the stairs with shoes on but I don’t have the confidence to run up stairs without shoes. I’m afraid I’d fall. I don’t need to be able to “feel” the stairs with the soles of my feet, but I do need to feel the increased, solid surface area that the shoes provide.

blob
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1752
Joined: Wed Oct 17, 2018 9:37 pm

Re: shoes and performance

Postby blob » Thu Aug 06, 2020 2:33 am

It is tricky when your horse falls in the category of 'very good feet'. MM is like this. But that doesnt' mean she wouldn't benefit from shoes in order to do the job I am asking her to do.

I came across in older article, where Shannon Peters talks about keeping all her horses barefoot and believes they do better this way. Interestingly, however, she puts glue-on shoes for competitions and then has them removed when the horse is home.

While I certainly won't have a different plan for competitions v. the rest of the time. It did get me wondering if my farrier does glue-on shoes and whether it might make sense for me to 'try out' shoes with MM with glue-ons. My understanding is that glue-ons are more expensive but as a tester it could be a good option since I can avoid putting holes in the hoof in case there proves to be no real difference/benefit with the shoes.

exvet
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1588
Joined: Tue Oct 20, 2015 12:28 pm
Location: Scottsdale

Re: shoes and performance

Postby exvet » Thu Aug 06, 2020 1:20 pm

blob wrote:It is tricky when your horse falls in the category of 'very good feet'. MM is like this. But that doesnt' mean she wouldn't benefit from shoes in order to do the job I am asking her to do.

I came across in older article, where Shannon Peters talks about keeping all her horses barefoot and believes they do better this way. Interestingly, however, she puts glue-on shoes for competitions and then has them removed when the horse is home.

While I certainly won't have a different plan for competitions v. the rest of the time. It did get me wondering if my farrier does glue-on shoes and whether it might make sense for me to 'try out' shoes with MM with glue-ons. My understanding is that glue-ons are more expensive but as a tester it could be a good option since I can avoid putting holes in the hoof in case there proves to be no real difference/benefit with the shoes.


Having horses with excellent feet especially in terms of horn quality and health, I will say that these are feet that usually can handle good shoeing very well and do not deteriorate. In 22 years I have had only two shoes 'lost' before the farrier was due out to trim/reset/re-shoe. That is for the years I had any where from 4 to 14 horses at a time. Of course not all my broodmares were shod but still a lot of feet. I do think the climate/weather my herd lives in contributes to this quite a bit - for those of us with dry lots/desert our horses do not go through the wet/dry cycle daily that can wreak havoc on their feet. I do see more problems in training barns where the horses are hosed off and standing in water routinely daily and get limited turn out.

Glue ons are an option. I used to use them in practice particularly for corrective needs/issues on horses who couldn't hold a nail.

Good feet + good farrier = happy healthy sound horse whether barefoot or shod. Monty is 22, still showing prix st. george and has been shod all the way around since the age of 6 with few breaks of no shoes. He is definitely one who demonstrates more power and confidence when shod all the way around and certainly hasn't displayed any problems due to the shoeing.

I am not adamant that all horses need to be shod. I do see horses who are quite happy being barefoot; but, I think healthy horn and a competent farrier can equal a happy healthy horse in which nail holes do not necessarily mean you are causing permanent deleterious damage to that foot. My horses grow a lot of horn during each shoeing cycle so that too has a lot to do with the fact that I really don't see nail damage as a chronic issue.

tlkidding
Herd Member
Posts: 152
Joined: Tue Nov 03, 2015 5:41 pm

Re: shoes and performance

Postby tlkidding » Fri Aug 07, 2020 8:28 pm

Try shoes and see if they help. You can always pull them after a cycle or two and it should take about 2 months for the nail holes to grow out.

If you are worried about the hoof growing a lot, make sure your farrier is willing to go to a 4-5 week schedule to trim and re-set if needed. My horse needs that in the summer but easily goes to 6 weeks in the winter.

I believe glue on shoes can be quite damaging to the hoof wall, especially in wet environments, so I'd avoid those.

I find that front shoes help general discomfort and wear on abrasive footing and rocks. Hind shoes really help increase stability and confidence behind for my horse, especially in the upper level collection and extension.

blob
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1752
Joined: Wed Oct 17, 2018 9:37 pm

Re: shoes and performance

Postby blob » Sun Oct 18, 2020 10:43 pm

My farrier said he would ofcourse shoe if I wanted, but that he likes to take the most minimalist approach and therefore didn't recommend them-- "if it aint broke, don't fix it". However, he's not evaluating her for performance, he's evaluating general soundness/comfort/hoof integrity. My trainer thinks they are worth trying. Farrier did say that he recommends I try hind shoes only at first to see if that makes a difference in the power and push I'm wondering about before I go all 4 around. That way if there's no difference, when I pul it'll be a faster/easier transition. He also said there's a chance I might only need back shoes.

User avatar
Boudicea
Novice
Posts: 50
Joined: Sun Dec 20, 2015 6:45 pm

Re: shoes and performance

Postby Boudicea » Thu Oct 22, 2020 7:11 am

First I will caveat this by saying I think a lot depends on the environment. But I have yet to see a barefoot horse here where I live that wouldn't benefit from shoes . In fact I'd go so far as to say most of them don't seem 100% sound.

I love the idea of barefoot but have not been convinced of its actual benefits. But like I said I do think think this is environmentally impacted. And of course horse individual specific.

blob
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1752
Joined: Wed Oct 17, 2018 9:37 pm

Re: shoes and performance

Postby blob » Thu Oct 22, 2020 1:11 pm

Boudicea wrote:First I will caveat this by saying I think a lot depends on the environment. But I have yet to see a barefoot horse here where I live that wouldn't benefit from shoes . In fact I'd go so far as to say most of them don't seem 100% sound.

I love the idea of barefoot but have not been convinced of its actual benefits. But like I said I do think think this is environmentally impacted. And of course horse individual specific.



MM is definitely 100% sound. but she's also a mustang. But that doesn't mean she won't benefit from them! Not sure where you're located. I'm in the southern US.

User avatar
Chisamba
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 4453
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2015 10:33 pm
Location: New Jersey

Re: shoes and performance

Postby Chisamba » Thu Oct 22, 2020 1:45 pm

I have waffled around doing only in front, or only hind and if the horse is wearing and tender, that makes sense, but if you are agreeing for performance, it doesn't make sense, imho, not to do all four. that said, here in the northeast, I wouldn't die till April because I don't like snow pads

blob
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1752
Joined: Wed Oct 17, 2018 9:37 pm

Re: shoes and performance

Postby blob » Thu Oct 22, 2020 1:58 pm

Chisamba wrote:I have waffled around doing only in front, or only hind and if the horse is wearing and tender, that makes sense, but if you are agreeing for performance, it doesn't make sense, imho, not to do all four. that said, here in the northeast, I wouldn't die till April because I don't like snow pads


No snow here, so that makes it easy and in some ways winter might be the better time to start, it often isn't as wet as our summers. Though last year we had a very wet winter.

I agree that going all 4 around for performance makes sense. I think the farrier's recommendation was more to start with just the hind to see if there was any difference that way if i decided after one cycle that it wasn't making a difference there would be an easier to transition. I think right now I am leaning towards trying them. I've realized i will wonder about them until i go ahead and try.

Ryeissa
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 2349
Joined: Mon Oct 12, 2015 1:41 pm

Re: shoes and performance

Postby Ryeissa » Thu Oct 22, 2020 7:56 pm

I am planning to leave the front shoes on and adding studs. I already have snow on the ground mid oct
I may add snow pads in a month. I can always pull them if needed. I think that it's helped, though I did this due to chipping not performance. It's a 5% difference, but seems positive so I will keep going. Trying to be open minded after having only barefoot horses since 2005. (More about cost/hassle than trying to conform to some barefoot theology/theory).

blob
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1752
Joined: Wed Oct 17, 2018 9:37 pm

Re: shoes and performance

Postby blob » Thu Oct 22, 2020 8:25 pm

Interesting to hear your experience, Rye. I too am trying to be open minded after so long of having a easy, cheap bare feet. But I will do what she needs to do the job!

She'll be getting hind shoes Nov 3rd to test it out. if it seems to be making some difference, we'll do all 4 the following cycle. If not, we'll just pull.

Ryeissa
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 2349
Joined: Mon Oct 12, 2015 1:41 pm

Re: shoes and performance

Postby Ryeissa » Thu Oct 22, 2020 9:09 pm

yeah, I moved barns and the soil is different. Interesting that that is the only variable that changed, but it was enough. even though the pastures are grass it must be just enough to cause chipping in front. Apparently it's pretty common that horses that didn't need shoes would need them there. I don't ride on gravel or anything, or even do much trial riding. When I do ride out much of it is grass/dirt paths.... The arena is rubber air mix stuff, so that isn't a factor.

User avatar
Boudicea
Novice
Posts: 50
Joined: Sun Dec 20, 2015 6:45 pm

Re: shoes and performance

Postby Boudicea » Sat Oct 24, 2020 1:04 pm

blob wrote:
MM is definitely 100% sound. but she's also a mustang. But that doesn't mean she won't benefit from them! Not sure where you're located. I'm in the southern US.


I'm in New England. The ground here is soft one day and hard the next. Mud but also rocks and gravel and more rocks. I feel like because of the soft ground the hooves never get a real chance to harden and toughen up. That would be ok if the ground stayed soft and wasn't rocky but it changes frequently and there are so many rocks. Of course there are a lot of people who would disagree with me but then my horse is sound on a trail ride and theirs either have to wear boots or seem tentative. And I would rather have my horse in a custom made shoe than an off the shelf boot.

Also here in the winter when I worked at barns we all used to hate leading the barefoot horses because they could not stabilize on the ice. It was scary at times.

Ryeissa
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 2349
Joined: Mon Oct 12, 2015 1:41 pm

Re: shoes and performance

Postby Ryeissa » Sat Oct 24, 2020 5:32 pm

Studs and snow pads! Check! its 27F today. Grrr. We have snow so I guess we are now ready.
I am glad that the "getup" should provide more traction on snow/ice. It's a super bonus since at times it can be icy even with the best of management.

User avatar
Boudicea
Novice
Posts: 50
Joined: Sun Dec 20, 2015 6:45 pm

Re: shoes and performance

Postby Boudicea » Sat Oct 24, 2020 6:35 pm

Ryeissa wrote:Studs and snow pads! Check! its 27F today. Grrr. We have snow so I guess we are now ready.
I am glad that the "getup" should provide more traction on snow/ice. It's a super bonus since at times it can be icy even with the best of management.


Pretty sure that there is a law that says if you put on studs it's not going to snow until Feb. Also if you take them off in the spring you'll get a blizzard the very next day. :roll:

Ryeissa
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 2349
Joined: Mon Oct 12, 2015 1:41 pm

Re: shoes and performance

Postby Ryeissa » Sun Oct 25, 2020 11:50 am

Boudicea wrote:
Ryeissa wrote:Studs and snow pads! Check! its 27F today. Grrr. We have snow so I guess we are now ready.
I am glad that the "getup" should provide more traction on snow/ice. It's a super bonus since at times it can be icy even with the best of management.


Pretty sure that there is a law that says if you put on studs it's not going to snow until Feb. Also if you take them off in the spring you'll get a blizzard the very next day. :roll:


yeah, we've had snow for 4 days. I thought Oct 23 was early enough.... LOL.


Return to “Dressage Training”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 64 guests