Second trot

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Boudicea
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Second trot

Postby Boudicea » Fri Jan 08, 2021 10:21 pm

I have a question to discuss. Firstly, I'm frogling from UDBB and still have my lusitano Sol.

When you watch the big competitions it seems like horses move in what I think would be described as the second trot. There is also a video from Charlotte about developing it I believe. I followed what she said actually and was able to get my little boy to do it but he's already pretty good at passage so I think he was just happy he could sort of a do a lazy version of it LOL. Then I started to wonder is this really collected trot? To this point in my education, I've gone from thinking (embarrassingly) that this second trot was just how warmbloods moved to then thinking it was a sort of trick or showmanship where riders would produce this sort of in-between collected trot and passage for the show ring. But now I'm wondering if I've just totally misunderstood what collected trot should actually be? Should my horse be doing this sort of quasi-passage and that is actually collected trot for the upper levels? Am I crazy?? Well that may be unrelated...

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Re: Second trot

Postby blob » Sat Jan 09, 2021 12:11 am

hello! interesting topic.

There is video I watched a few years back of Gareth Hughes talking about improving/developing the trot. He is riding a mare who is a very nice mover, but not one that has CRAZY suspension like some of warmbloods do. And he talks us through the warm up he does with her and sort of the natural trot she gives out the gate.

And then he does this infuriating thing where he says he just improves the trot and suddenly the nice trot becomes a wow trot and very much like the second trot you're talking about. I say it's infuriating because his instruction of how to achieve this is to 'just shape the body' and I'm like ok...but HOW DID YOU DO THAT??? Anyway ultimately it's a cool video because it does show a real change and how much riding/training can truly improve the quality of the trot.

Let me see if i can find it...

ETA: I can't find the full video where he talks about what he does to achieve it. But here's the video that shows the horse's trot change:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_aHBu3COysw

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Re: Second trot

Postby Tanga » Sat Jan 09, 2021 1:36 am

Hmm. I have never heard of the term. In the video, he goes from a working trot to a working passage. I do that a lot with the horses to try to get them more cadenced and light and improve the trot overall.

How did he do it? He sat, and you can see the aides for passage where he is sort of lifting a little each step with his reins and supporting the rhythm with the legs. The mare clearly knows that means lift her legs more.

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Re: Second trot

Postby blob » Sat Jan 09, 2021 3:09 am

Tanga, I don't consider that a working passage. In they longer video he uses that trot for all the lateral work. That's the trot he expects the mare to have throughout her work, other than in the warm up. Yes it is a more suspended trot than a passage. But he does not mean for it to be working passage. He means for it to be a developed trot. The mare's actual passage is a different gear entirely.

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Re: Second trot

Postby Boudicea » Sat Jan 09, 2021 11:16 am

So is this what collected trot should be? I'm going to need to join a gym if that's the case lol. I can do it but maintaining it throughout the ride is going to take a lot more conditioing. And I think I'd worry about my horse's joints if he had to maintain this trot for extended periods.

Although perhaps I underestimated him. This past year I had to get my butt in gear and work him more bc the vet said he needed to be in better shape... Without much in the way of hills I've struggled with that but he is definitely in better shape now and getting ridden more.

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Re: Second trot

Postby StraightForward » Sat Jan 09, 2021 3:59 pm

Here is a video with Amelia Newcomb that might help. There is another one specifically referring to second trot, but linking this one because I think it explains better and she is showing it on PREs instead of WBs.
https://youtu.be/UdU1HgnqPn4
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Re: Second trot

Postby Tanga » Sat Jan 09, 2021 6:30 pm

Blob It sure looks like a working passage to me, where you take that and making it into the "collected trot." But, I agree in calling it a suspended trot. I use that when I feel the trot getting flat, like in the super steep GP half pass. But, it's the same line of thinking and same training and mechanics.

straighfroward Excellent video! I like her. That makes sense to me. I still have never heard of the term "second trot," just better, or more cadenced and collected as she says. It's about getting them strong enough to come up more and use themselves. I am sure my mares' trots have changed a lot with doing a lot more work on p/p. Esp. with Quilla, it has helped her keep that more elevated trot in all of her work.

Interesting in watching this and the rein length thread and me figuring out what is going on and looking at pictures of myself. I cue passage in particular, but piaffe also, with a little squeeze up with the reins (which in still pictures ends up looking like reins to high) and I see both of them doing that here. I can see it in videos of myself where I am trying to correct the trot. I notice my hands are down and the reins short in super collected movements like hp and pirouettes, but in other movements where I need to keep supporting this trot, there are many places where my hands come up. Hmmmmmm.

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Re: Second trot

Postby Ryeissa » Sat Jan 09, 2021 7:05 pm

Its more trot than passage to me. If its more towards passage it would be more vertical/compressed vs horizontal. Nice horse and rider- really fun to see the change in gait.
All shades of the same thing though, and I think each horse learns in his own style.

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Re: Second trot

Postby Ryeissa » Sat Jan 09, 2021 7:09 pm

Angela newcomb isn't someone I want to emulate generally so I will try to leave my opinion of her riding alone. This video with the grey doesn't show a horse with a regular trot rhythm. The hindlegs are dribbling out behind with little punch. Watch the robert dover clinic from this am on USEF network and he gives a really nice idea of how to get the horse packaged better.

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Re: Second trot

Postby StraightForward » Sat Jan 09, 2021 7:57 pm

I think the video is transparent about the training process, and the horse is still developing. No it's not perfect but I thought it was worth posting because many of these videos use big moving WBs and these horses are more similar to the OPs, and offers more explanation of the process.

What I can appreciate from this video is that the smaller-moving horses may need to develop more shoulder reach and lift before being "packaged" whereas the horses with a lot of natural reach can develop this trot a little sooner. It is easy to see this difference between my two horses, where one has the loftier trot pre-installed, and the other needs every bit of it to be manufactured through lots of work.
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Re: Second trot

Postby Ryeissa » Sun Jan 10, 2021 4:44 pm

StraightForward wrote:I think the video is transparent about the training process, and the horse is still developing. No it's not perfect but I thought it was worth posting because many of these videos use big moving WBs and these horses are more similar to the OPs, and offers more explanation of the process.

What I can appreciate from this video is that the smaller-moving horses may need to develop more shoulder reach and lift before being "packaged" whereas the horses with a lot of natural reach can develop this trot a little sooner. It is easy to see this difference between my two horses, where one has the loftier trot pre-installed, and the other needs every bit of it to be manufactured through lots of work.


I am not so sure I agree here. I have not found a difference in collection- more so how the aids are applied.

To me there is no goal for a lofty trot- only a correct back to front extension.

The loss of rhythm in the grey spanish horse is quite concerning to me- to me it speaks to a fundamental lack of push- if you don't have a push then you don't have much to work with.....not sure how I would handle that but I would definitely keep an eye on it. I have a loss of rhythm in my TOH and it's always a major fault to be corrected. The grey horses' hocks were out behind.

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Re: Second trot

Postby Tanga » Sun Jan 10, 2021 8:04 pm

Ryeissa I looked at the video again and have no clue what you are talking about. I don't see any lack of rhythm in the grey horse. I see a horse being taught how to carry and work from behind, get push. She is CLEARLY showing this and explaining it in the video. You see he wants to get a little lazy and drop the back and not work up under, so she does some half steps and you see his back come up and he comes up from behind and starts working better, and then repeat. THAT is the training to get him stronger to do the work and keep the carriage throughout all of the work. You can't be doing the piaffe and not have push.

As a judge, even at 3rd level as she states where he kind of is, I would make no comment about a lack of rhythm or carrying ability, engagement and collection. He has varying moments as all horses do. Is he as good as the probably bazillion dollar horses in Wellington at the Dover clinic? No. But how useful is it to learn from watching videos of super horses with riders who have all of the help in the world showing how easy it is to make your horses correct?

And I, too, appreciate seeing a more normal looking horse, going through the process. The horse wants to be out behind, and this shows how you train to deal with it. If you look at the videos of my horses, Quinn wants to look that way, too, even though she feels like riding a Mac truck/Ferrari cross. It's a process.

You clearly don't like this person. I don't know her at all and am just looking at the videos. I feel the same way about DeKunffy who never does anything but talk, but here, she is showing exactly what we are talking about.

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Re: Second trot

Postby Ryeissa » Thu Jan 14, 2021 10:36 pm

Tanga wrote:Ryeissa I looked at the video again and have no clue what you are talking about. I don't see any lack of rhythm in the grey horse. I see a horse being taught how to carry and work from behind, get push. She is CLEARLY showing this and explaining it in the video. You see he wants to get a little lazy and drop the back and not work up under, so she does some half steps and you see his back come up and he comes up from behind and starts working better, and then repeat. THAT is the training to get him stronger to do the work and keep the carriage throughout all of the work. You can't be doing the piaffe and not have push.

As a judge, even at 3rd level as she states where he kind of is, I would make no comment about a lack of rhythm or carrying ability, engagement and collection. He has varying moments as all horses do. Is he as good as the probably bazillion dollar horses in Wellington at the Dover clinic? No. But how useful is it to learn from watching videos of super horses with riders who have all of the help in the world showing how easy it is to make your horses correct?

And I, too, appreciate seeing a more normal looking horse, going through the process. The horse wants to be out behind, and this shows how you train to deal with it. If you look at the videos of my horses, Quinn wants to look that way, too, even though she feels like riding a Mac truck/Ferrari cross. It's a process.

You clearly don't like this person. I don't know her at all and am just looking at the videos. I feel the same way about DeKunffy who never does anything but talk, but here, she is showing exactly what we are talking about.


The trot diagonals don't match- the hose is squisky behind and "out behind", the front legs are already completing the stride before the hinds reach the full stride.
this is at 4:09 (horse facing to the right) and then 3:56 (you can see the diagonals are off)
We have all bad moments in time. I don't like her, but I can separate my views. I comment on this stuff on many other people.
I am trained as a massage therapist, so if this was my client I would see what I could find. Here it's just an online opinion, feel free to ignore me :)
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Re: Second trot

Postby Tanga » Thu Jan 14, 2021 10:40 pm

I don't see any issues in the pictures. Both show the legs are parallel or better. At the beginning of the video, she shows how he gets out behind and then shows how she corrects it and brings him through. You do realize the 3:56 is where is is doing half steps, right? Everything in the 4:03 to 4:11 range is very correct and in facts shows DAP, diagonal angular placement where the hind foot lands first, which is very much considered correct and desirable. At 4:09 you can see the hind leg landing slightly ahead of the front, which is exactly what you want.

Whether you like her or not, this video does a good job of showing how to fix this issue in horses. I'm sure I could find something of CDK that is accurate and correct, though it sure wouldn't be with him riding.
Last edited by Tanga on Thu Jan 14, 2021 10:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Second trot

Postby Ryeissa » Thu Jan 14, 2021 10:47 pm

Tanga wrote:I don't see any issues in the pictures. Both show the legs are parallel. At the beginning of the video, she shows how he gets out behind and then shows how she corrects it and brings him through. You do realize the 3:46 is where is is doing half steps, right?

Whether you like her or not, this video does a good job of showing how to fix this issue in horses. I'm sure I could find something of CDK that is accurate and correct, though it sure wouldn't be with him riding.


yeah, to each their own! That is the beauty of an online community- we don't have to agree.
at 3:56 the front leg starts coming back down before you see the back leg at it's peak. watch the video (again).

The horse needs better thrust from the hind end, it's pretty clear he's out behind. I honestly didn't see much improvement, but it's so hard to tell in this short video. Amelia tends to ride heavy handed and handsy so this is likely why the jam up starts. It's not a revalation to anyone.

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Re: Second trot

Postby Tanga » Thu Jan 14, 2021 11:01 pm

I added more above. As I said above, 3:56 is half steps, he's a little bit uneven, but that's not the point, because it's clearly about engagement, not perfect half steps. You can hear her clearly explaining that.

I don't understand why you keep saying that. That is the POINT of the video--the horse does not want to carry behind. She's showing a horse that needs more engagement and a horse that wants to be out behind, what it looks like before, and how to correct it.

I don't know what to say if you don't see a difference. In the beginning the easiest way to see it besides the length of the back, it's dropped a tad, too, is the lengthening where he gets quick instead of carrying. Right in the sections where you pulled out pictures, he is WAY better, much shorter and up in the back and clearly keeping up and the same tempo in the lengthening because of the exercise of getting more engagement through the half steps.

I don't see heavy handed here and certainly no jam up. I see exactly what we are talking about and what she is explaining. I don't know if this is because I do this all of the time or what, but everything lines up.

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Re: Second trot

Postby Ryeissa » Thu Jan 14, 2021 11:52 pm

Tanga wrote:I added more above. As I said above, 3:56 is half steps, he's a little bit uneven, but that's not the point, because it's clearly about engagement, not perfect half steps. You can hear her clearly explaining that.

I don't understand why you keep saying that. That is the POINT of the video--the horse does not want to carry behind. She's showing a horse that needs more engagement and a horse that wants to be out behind, what it looks like before, and how to correct it.

I don't know what to say if you don't see a difference. In the beginning the easiest way to see it besides the length of the back, it's dropped a tad, too, is the lengthening where he gets quick instead of carrying. Right in the sections where you pulled out pictures, he is WAY better, much shorter and up in the back and clearly keeping up and the same tempo in the lengthening because of the exercise of getting more engagement through the half steps.

I don't see heavy handed here and certainly no jam up. I see exactly what we are talking about and what she is explaining. I don't know if this is because I do this all of the time or what, but everything lines up.


I guess the uneveness bothers me more than it does you. It's all training though, so not perfect.

Her heavy handed stuff comes from other videos (see- saw, btv). I can't stand watching her. Sorry
I am far from the only one who avoids (per real life friends and online conversations) but if she works for you then it's great to have free access to more education.

I think this is probably at the point i am going to repeat myself so it's time to end this thread...

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Re: Second trot

Postby Tanga » Fri Jan 15, 2021 12:24 am

One more time, unevenness in half steps. schooling piaffe, is not an issue. No horse learning half steps or piaffe is even. Maybe it comes with experience teaching it on many horses. Same with DAP. You can argue with Hilda all you want on that--you will lose.

One more time. NO clue who she is and have never heard of her and watched her before. In THIS video on the topic of THIS thread, she is right on showing what we are talking about. Why would she "work" for me when I have access to people in real life who have brought multiple horses to GP and done so myself?

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Re: Second trot

Postby khall » Fri Jan 15, 2021 1:45 am

In some points I agree with Rye on the Iberian horses. To me the horses are too compressed in the neck which impairs the correctness in their gaits.

The first horse is impressive in the changes she can make. That is fun to watch. The other two Iberians are not my cup of tea training wise.

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Re: Second trot

Postby Chisamba » Fri Jan 15, 2021 8:43 am

I didn't know it was called second trot but it is very clear that some professional riders are very good at producing this trot. I also think it is a product of modern dressage and was truly exemplified in Totilas who as a younger stallion had a fairly normal trot, and emulated in some firm with different methods since. I have heard quite a few people did call it a faux passage, but I suppose second trot souns more legitimate and less manufactured.

anyway, I did mention names of people who do it really well but removed all names because I have no itemized of throwing names into a contentious topic.

now they try call it collected trot but old fashioned collection does not have more cadence and suspension. it has less.

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Re: Second trot

Postby Chisamba » Fri Jan 15, 2021 8:47 am

https://youtu.be/aT_pzY-xCtQ

I have seen this horse in warm up, its ordinary trot isn't quite as expressive as this.

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Re: Second trot

Postby blob » Fri Jan 15, 2021 11:33 am

khall wrote:
The first horse is impressive in the changes she can make. That is fun to watch.


What I love about that video is that the initial trot is nice, but it is nothing special. I would not see that trot and think "that's a really great mover". After the change? Yes, a really great mover. I wish I could find the full video

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Re: Second trot

Postby Ryeissa » Fri Jan 15, 2021 2:28 pm

Chisamba wrote:https://youtu.be/aT_pzY-xCtQ

I have seen this horse in warm up, its ordinary trot isn't quite as expressive as this.


yes, very nice collection here. you can tell it's learning but this is real harnessing of the hind end.

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Re: Second trot

Postby Ryeissa » Fri Jan 15, 2021 2:29 pm

blob wrote:
khall wrote:
The first horse is impressive in the changes she can make. That is fun to watch.


What I love about that video is that the initial trot is nice, but it is nothing special. I would not see that trot and think "that's a really great mover". After the change? Yes, a really great mover. I wish I could find the full video


same- this is the "full body stuffing" that is very nice. This is what I'm not seeing in the grey Angela Newcomb is riding. I love seeing these "average movers" in an olympic barn and it's very intriguing to me. If anyone gets this full video I would love to watch

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Re: Second trot

Postby Ryeissa » Fri Jan 15, 2021 2:34 pm

Tanga wrote:One more time, unevenness in half steps. schooling piaffe, is not an issue. No horse learning half steps or piaffe is even. Maybe it comes with experience teaching it on many horses. Same with DAP. You can argue with Hilda all you want on that--you will lose.

One more time. NO clue who she is and have never heard of her and watched her before. In THIS video on the topic of THIS thread, she is right on showing what we are talking about. Why would she "work" for me when I have access to people in real life who have brought multiple horses to GP and done so myself?


sure, that makes sense. My background with the rider gives me a different lens. Nothing wrong with not having seen her before. She has her own youtube channel so there is a lot of talk about her in passing. I think the riding style is a factor in why the horse is showing certain tendencies. That is all. I don't hate this person or wish them badly, I just don't support the style. That doesn't bother me or make me a bad person. I just don't like seeing people see saw or ride deep like she does in multiple videos.

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Re: Second trot

Postby Ryeissa » Fri Jan 15, 2021 2:39 pm

Tanga you were very negative in the GP judging for the GDF stream, so it will be interesting to compare when we get the link what I am seeing vs what you saw there.....

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Re: Second trot

Postby Tanga » Fri Jan 15, 2021 5:37 pm

Ryeissa wrote:Tanga you were very negative in the GP judging for the GDF stream, so it will be interesting to compare when we get the link what I am seeing vs what you saw there.....


It makes my point exactly. The horses in Wellington are VERY nice and they have all of the help in the world. Many of those horses did not have a piaffe nearly as good as this horse's half steps. It takes years, if never, to get an even rhythm and quality in the piaffe.

I wasn't very negative. I said the piaffes were way overscored and there was some overscoring which helped Adrienne win, I think, but generally I agreed with it. Critical thinking requires a careful evaluation of everything.

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Re: Second trot

Postby khall » Fri Jan 15, 2021 8:35 pm

Chisamba I don’t agree that horses should not develop more cadence in collected trot

Cadence: The marked accentuation of the rhythm and (musical) beat that is a result of a steady and suitable tempo harmonizing with a springy impulsion—USDF Glossary of Dressage Judging Terms. Some horses have natural cadence because they are loose in their backs and have more suspension by nature.

IMO they should develop more expression as they shorten but elevate the stride and compress the hind joints. The key is of course not compressing the horse’s neck but shorten the base via rotation of the pelvis. Strides should be shorter but more elevated.

The first video that is so nice of the bay shows exactly this. Creating the impulsion and elevation that leads to a more cadenced trot without tension.

The video you posted hmm I see some tension would love to see his more normal trot.

I do agree that what we often see in international competition is too exaggerated and sometimes bastardized flamboyance. But I do feel if you train biomechanically correct the horse will develop more expression just not as leg flingy as some we see

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Re: Second trot

Postby Chisamba » Fri Jan 15, 2021 10:26 pm

This is another one, i warmed up next to this mare in the warm up for at least half an hour, and her "normal trot" was not any more fancy than Kimba. When she hit the ring and showed this trot, i realized my show riding is definitely lacking in the trot development dimension.

https://youtu.be/Qx_8C0KxAac

i did speak to my friend there, who is a good GP rider and a judge and she said if you cannot produce the second trot you are not going to score in the seventies

I do want to say that she is a suoer duper lovely horse and rider,

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Re: Second trot

Postby demi » Fri Jan 15, 2021 10:44 pm

Chisamba wrote:This is another one, i warmed up next to this mare in the warm up for at least half an hour, and her "normal trot" was not any more fancy than Kimba. When she hit the ring and showed this trot, i realized my show riding is definitely lacking in the trot development dimension.

https://youtu.be/Qx_8C0KxAac

i did speak to my friend there, who is a good GP rider and a judge and she said if you cannot produce the second trot you are not going to score in the seventies

I do want to say that she is a suoer duper lovely horse and rider,


I thought that was a beautiful ride. Horse, rider, music...the whole package. Thanks for posting it, Chisamba.

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Re: Second trot

Postby khall » Fri Jan 15, 2021 10:47 pm

I like this explanation on cadence

https://www.catskillhorse.org/v-58-a-2- ... ining.html

Will watch video when I can

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Re: Second trot

Postby khall » Sun Jan 17, 2021 8:41 pm

I watched that dark horse go. Lovely swingy horse with good relaxation. I’m just not sold on having that big of a mover. The horse (mare?) gets very wide behind in the extensions.

So I guess for me there is a limit of the changes I would like to see. I still think the bay horse first posted shows the best changes without going overboard with extravagance

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Re: Second trot

Postby Flight » Sun Jan 17, 2021 9:52 pm

I've read a discussion about this on FB and how it's been a more modern training thing and how horses should have collected trot and passage, not this add suspension to a trot thing.
I've been taught how to do it from a competitive style trainer, who called it the second trot. You actually get a good working trot and give half halts to ask the horse to wait, but keep the power and keep the trot still big. I'm not sure if it's a 'good' thing for the horse etc, it just seems fashionable.

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Re: Second trot

Postby Boudicea » Tue Jan 26, 2021 6:07 am

Chisamba wrote:i did speak to my friend there, who is a good GP rider and a judge and she said if you cannot produce the second trot you are not going to score in the seventies


That reminds me of a discussion I had with a post-doc who had talked to an editor at Cell. The editor said if it didn't have CRISPR in the paper then he wasn't interested.

I guess I feel that for me personally I do dressage for two reasons. One, I want to prolong the working life of my horse by increasing his strength and flexibility and putting him in a position to carry a rider so that both he and I can enjoy riding. Two, I find the mental and physical challenge of learning dressage very rewarding and love doing it with my best friend aka my horse. So considering those two objectives I think the second trot is not for me. I don't see how it will help me to achieve either goal. I'll stick to my less flashy collected trot. I can always use passage as needed.

Thanks for the interesting discussion!

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Re: Second trot

Postby Kyra's Mom » Tue Jan 26, 2021 6:31 am

Boudicea wrote:
I guess I feel that for me personally I do dressage for two reasons. One, I want to prolong the working life of my horse by increasing his strength and flexibility and putting him in a position to carry a rider so that both he and I can enjoy riding. Two, I find the mental and physical challenge of learning dressage very rewarding and love doing it with my best friend aka my horse.


Thanks for the interesting discussion!


This is me too. Funny, I have dabbled in and studied dressage for 40 + years and this is the first time I have ever heard the term "second trot". But then, I suppose that is another draw to dressage...always learning. I don't have to worry about second trot or any collected trot right now anyway. Neither horse or I have done much in the last 7-8 years due to my infirmities. We both have a lot of fitness work to do before I even worry about such things. She turns 19 this year and I am 65 and fat...it will be a long while if ever :P :D .

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Re: Second trot

Postby Lipsmackerpony88 » Sat Feb 27, 2021 12:01 am

https://www.instagram.com/reel/CLgfpc5H ... k7q7k96by4

I saw this on instagram. My personal opinions, I prefer the before trot versus the after which I think is a "second trot" like is discussed here.

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Re: Second trot

Postby khall » Sat Feb 27, 2021 4:31 am

Lipsmacker looks like the beginning of passage to me. Horses will have more expression in their gaits when they are in better self carriage. I think riders get into trouble if the trot hovers rather than staying active behind. This horse has a lovely active hind leg. It’s still a bit quick for passage could have more suspension more air time. The first trot is not as collected more of a working gait.

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Re: Second trot

Postby Lipsmackerpony88 » Sat Feb 27, 2021 5:00 am

:lol: Khall maybe. The description says "Transformation before and after trot" which made me think of this thread.

I just think the horse looks so tense in the passagey trot. But maybe that's because it's green at it? So I naturally am drawn to more relaxation. Which is probably why I'll never make it to the top though :lol: :P

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Re: Second trot

Postby khall » Sat Feb 27, 2021 1:05 pm

I don’t see tension in the more elevated trot. Yes he looks green. What I like about the more elevation is he definitely comes up out of the base of his neck and stays active behind. I think if the rider did not push for as much trot in the elevation let the horse have a less flash the gait would look better. One thing I’ve learned over the years though is the work we do will not always look pretty and relaxed. We end up riding lots of ugly as the horse develops.

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Re: Second trot

Postby Lipsmackerpony88 » Sat Feb 27, 2021 3:52 pm

Interesting Khall!

What about this? Is this what people consider a "second trot" ?

https://www.instagram.com/tv/CKwCsBgJSQ ... m9xe72bfmm

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Re: Second trot

Postby khall » Sat Feb 27, 2021 4:22 pm

Yes this is a more cadenced trot. This horse has the opposite problem of the liver chestnut in that he is a bit slow behind. He needs to have a bit more quickness behind for better engagement it’s almost that hovering trot. But you can see too with a bit more power this horse would go into passage.

This is the issue I have with Rip. Slow hind leg which makes it harder for him to engage. But it’s coming. I was able to get true solid medium trot out of him yesterday that was sitable. It’s taken awhile for him to understand and get strong and supple enough to get here. That chestnut is like Joplin it comes more naturally to him than the bay horse. I tried a bit of half steps with her yesterday in hand and she was giving me passage type steps high off the ground and active

Dresseur always talked about having different gears in the gaits and these videos are showing this. Some better than others.

With a horse that is too quick you want to ride a bit slower with a horse that is too slow you want to almost over speed them. One that is too high ride them longer and lower to get the back one that is too low headed which is Rip ride them higher. Joplin is in the middle so us Gaila.

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Re: Second trot

Postby Lipsmackerpony88 » Sat Feb 27, 2021 4:33 pm

Thanks Khall, just trying to learn and train my eye (hard when you haven't done it)

That makes sense and I can see that difference between the two (and more passage vs second trot)

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Re: Second trot

Postby Tanga » Sat Feb 27, 2021 5:32 pm

Lipsmacker, the first video is interesting. The first trot he is out behind, but it would look a lot better if the rider didn't push the horse quite so much. The second trot he is also out behind and it looks like the rider is pulling him up rather than pushing him up from behind. I think both trots could be a lot better by focusing on the hind end coming under,.

The other one with JJT. Ugh. It might be my aversion to calling CDK a "dressage master" but everything about the way she rode that I did not like. Clamping the thighs to get the horse to sit? Maybe she is a tiny woman on a huge horse, but if I did that, my horses would be like blocks of wood. All that does is interfere with all of their movement, and sitting down hard into the back drives their back down, not up. I think of shifting their weight back to the hind end and lifting their front by more activity and spring behind so the back can come up.

And, agree on everything khall. It's all about having gears. You have to teach the horse to dial from 1 to 10, some needing a quick progression, and some very slow, but always working on being able to dial forward and back through them. But it's all about keeping the hind end under and the back coming up into your seat, not driving your seat down into the horse's back.

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Re: Second trot

Postby khall » Sat Feb 27, 2021 6:27 pm

Tanga I use my thigh for passage. Close the knee and thigh. I don’t sit heavy but I do sit on my AR as we’ve discussed before. I don’t keep the thigh closed but close release close release in the rhythm of the passage. JJT does not weigh much and she is riding a big horse I can see why she would need to sit heavier

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Re: Second trot

Postby Tanga » Sat Feb 27, 2021 8:00 pm

khall wrote:Tanga I use my thigh for passage. Close the knee and thigh. I don’t sit heavy but I do sit on my AR as we’ve discussed before. I don’t keep the thigh closed but close release close release in the rhythm of the passage. JJT does not weigh much and she is riding a big horse I can see why she would need to sit heavier


Maybe it's a difference in height with people. I don't have a "short people" perspective. For me it feels like I'm using my lower leg to lift up the barrel if anything. If your leg doesn't go much past the barrel, you can't do that. I was having trouble getting the horses to relax using the the thigh like that and sitting deeper, and when I switched it up and stopped doing that and did a lot less and lighter, both got much better.

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Re: Second trot

Postby khall » Sat Feb 27, 2021 9:20 pm

I’m not short. I’m 5’7”. I use the lower leg for piaffe and the thigh for passage with a supporting calf. I used this aid even on my hot OTTB g I had. Medium trot half halt with thigh and passage.

Rip is large though and my lower leg does not go below his barrel at all. Even Joplin my lower leg does not go below her barrel

I’m always curious about how everyone differentiates between the different gears in the gaits. So with Rip yesterday in the medium trot both legs on thigh to help stabilize my position but not on like in passage. Lower leg pulsing for hind legs and my seat thinking forward like you would use your seat pushing a swing. To bring him back to passage I would tighten my thigh pulsing but keep the lower leg an seat same for power and engaging HQs.

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Re: Second trot

Postby Lipsmackerpony88 » Sun Feb 28, 2021 12:58 am

Tanga, that's what I saw too. I can see that the horse is out behind especially in the beginning and I'm not saying it's what I would like to see... I guess I just don't see the passage or passage like trot to be a desired outcome either. I think it's the neck that I'm really not liking (I know the biggest focus is what's going on behind but sometimes things just catch my eye especially as an amateur.)

Thanks for the discussion.

I'm 5'2 so I guess one day when I get to passage I'll let you guys know how I do it ha ha :P :lol:

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Re: Second trot

Postby Tanga » Sun Feb 28, 2021 5:30 pm

Khall Yes, I should have said short in comparison to the horse. Even on Quinn, who is quite big, only my upper calf touches the barrel.

I am always interested in how people do things, too. In the ext. trot I have been experimenting with just sitting there and opening my legs a bit because I was pushing too much before. In the videos, that did not look so good. So I'm back to a more closed leg in the rhythm like you say. But I don't really push much because both can get too much. So I think of taking it from the really collected energetic trot to allowing them to go forward, sort of as a release, but really, really, thinking up on front. I use the tilt of the pelvis/tuck my butt under for the collection.

lipsmacker--I didn't like either trot because of the out behind, but it is more "excusable" when she was going forward. To be "passaging" and be out that much is a problem. I think you don't like the neck because what you're seeing is the "collection" done by pulling the neck in instead of the hind end coming under, as it should be. You're seeing it right!

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Re: Second trot

Postby Lipsmackerpony88 » Sun Feb 28, 2021 6:17 pm

Tanga, yes I would say that was my initial reaction as well. I do think the horse was green too but it was just first impression on a short clip.

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Re: Second trot

Postby Koolkat » Mon Mar 01, 2021 6:28 am

Tanga wrote:Lipsmacker, the first video is interesting. The first trot he is out behind, but it would look a lot better if the rider didn't push the horse quite so much. The second trot he is also out behind and it looks like the rider is pulling him up rather than pushing him up from behind. I think both trots could be a lot better by focusing on the hind end coming under,.


That is what bothers me about the "2nd" trot. A horse should step under more and flex/bend/sit as they become more collected, if indeed they are. It's not always apparent that is happening.


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