Sitting trot

[Flight]

Has anyone ever had a horse that is just hard to sit to the trot with? I'm struggling sooo much with my big horse. I get that the trot has to be right and the back soft enough to allow a rider to sit on it.
I can sit to my other horse, I just cannot sit on this one and I cannot figure out why it's so rough.

I can sit to his lateral work. But straight and certainly medium/extended trot sends me out of the saddle like I'm on a pogo stick! He's not a huge mover, other than being a big (17.2hh) horse, and I've tried lower neck, more impulsion etc, but I can only sit lateral or a really modest little trot.

Ideas? I can add video later if it will help.

[blob]

Darn my reply got deleted.

Some horses are just much harder to sit than others. Some things that might help:

Doing it without stirrups is sometimes easier.

Try another saddle--some saddles make it harder for me to sit on some horses. It can be a saddle I otherwise love and that makes it easier to sit another horses trot.

Get a bucking strap and anchor yourself in.

To get my body used to sitting RP's trot, which I struggled with for awhile, I had to think of using my seat to bounce him back on his hind legs. If I just thought about sitting the trot, I couldn't. If I thought about using my seat to really rock him back in the trot I could sit it.

[heddylamar]

I had a mare who's trot was awful to sit. I turned it into an exercise. You know the gymnastics where you post 4 strides, two point for 6 strides, or whatever? Over several weeks, I did posting to sitting for 6:3, 4:4, etc until I was just sitting like a rag doll. Only needing to do it for a few steps got me over the mental hump of that jarring trot, and then I could work on attempting to be graceful and effective.

[Ryeissa]

Me! Oh me! I have no advice but it took till I was getting real second level work till I could sit.

[Sue B]

One of the reasons no one will sit on Rudy (as in trainer-type people) is that his trot is insanely hard to sit. (Actually, even rising trot was a challenge for the first couple years.) I rode him in the USDF AA Clinic years ago and wound up doing the bulk of the trot rising because of that. When she heard audience members snickering at me, Hilda stopped me, turned to the audience and explained why a horse like him is so very hard to sit. Mainly that he has an extremely short back, so short that I am practically sitting on his rear end so there is a lot of motion going on there, and that things would get better as he gained strength. As years have gone by, the sitting trot has gotten loads better because 1) he is much stronger now and 2) because he's stronger, he's able to lift his back and hold it without tension. Medium sitting trot is still a challenge, but I can now sit it well for like 4 or 5 strides before losing it. Sitting only the number of strides you can do well and then going to rising helps. Focusing on really letting your hips swing with each stride helps, dropping your stirrups and peddling the bicycle helps cuz it'll get your hips swinging. Focusing on getting him truly "through" so that he is lifting his withers and base of neck helps. Pony trot to regular trot to pony trot to medium trot in fairly rapid succession might help too if you feel he isn't truly in front of your leg. Lateral work to straight back to lateral, again in fairly rapid succession really helped me.

Btw, Rudy isn't the first horse that challenged my sitting ability. My big, springy moving Lad was also difficult to sit but that was 100% related to tension in his back and was relatively easily addressed with "deep" riding and pony trot until his brain would come back on line. So sometimes it's conformational, as in Rudy's case, and sometimes it's just a rough patch you go through as they gain strength and understanding.

[Tanga]

Yes. Quinn's trot is very hard to sit. Much harder than her sister. She is big and big moving and super sensitive, but I think the bigger issue is she can be tight and tense. I have tried everything.

Getting a saddle that fit me helped. But, I think the biggest thing that helped is to stop holding on with my seat and legs. Someone pointed out awhile back that I was sitting really deep in the saddle on both horses and that seems to make them tense. As soon as I just sat instead of sitting deep, that helped a lot. Then it was suggested not to work so hard, esp. in piaffe/passage, and just sit there and let them find their rhythm. That has helped a lot, too.

I get worried and tight and that makes me tighten in my thighs and butt. I have been working a lot of feeling like I'm lifting my legs off the saddle and not tightening my butt at all, and I think it has helped a lot. The more you feel like you're flopping around, usually the better you are looking in following the horse.

Of course making sure they are really up through their back is essential. That makes everything easier. You know if you're popping out of the saddle, they are not working correctly. Improving that comes from things like p/p/super collected trot to med/ext and back as soon as you feel the back drop, so the horse gets stronger and learns to carry in the extension.

I was just going to start a thread on this because I have been thinking about it. As riders, we have massively strong inner thighs (not outer) and butts. In my exercise classes this is always apparent I am so much stronger as the instructor comments this is generally people's weakest area. I think people who have been riding (correctly) for a long time don't realize how strong they are and use WAY too much strength there. I'm sure I have. This interferes with being able to stay with the trot because any tension bounces you out of the saddle, and the tightness transfers to the horse, which is particularly amplified with big, strong horses.

[piedmontfields]

I think it's a thoroughness challenge (likely tightness, as Tanga notes above). On your big fellow, do you have a polite way of reminding him to lift his back? With my sensitive mare it's about inner thigh looseness, not strength (although like most riders I am pretty strong). But I still need to touch her in the belly with toes sometimes to say "hey you--it's your back that it's the way of our comfort!" lol.

Sue's description is great, too. With a short back, it is a real challenge (but hey, other things are easier!).

[khall]

Yes Rip is difficult to sit. IMO it’s about their engagement or lack there of. Rip struggles with engagement in the trot. Better in the canter. Because he does not sit and lift up easily in the trot and is not the most energetic horse naturally it makes his trot rough. His full sister Gaila who finds it easier to keep the hind legs energetic is easy and smooth to sit. Joplin who has a natural motor and a big trot is so easy to sit on. She finds engagement easy and I can already feel that more cadenced trot even as green as she is and not as strong. But she is supple and powerful in her movements much more so than Rip is.

My opinion is that some horses are just difficult to sit and regardless of how much training they have they still are just not that easy.

[Chisamba]

Caliburn and Emma were both hard to sit. like driving over corrugated road with poor shock absorbers.

I don't know if I just became accustomed to the rhythm or they improved or both but after a while they became as rideable as any.

don't grip, don't sit heavy, just find the rhythm and go with the flow

[Ryeissa]

One of the reasons no one will sit on Rudy (as in trainer-type people) is that his trot is insanely hard to sit. (Actually, even rising trot was a challenge for the first couple years.) I rode him in the USDF AA Clinic years ago and wound up doing the bulk of the trot rising because of that. When she heard audience members snickering at me, Hilda stopped me, turned to the audience and explained why a horse like him is so very hard to sit. Mainly that he has an extremely short back, so short that I am practically sitting on his rear end so there is a lot of motion going on there, and that things would get better as he gained strength. As years have gone by, the sitting trot has gotten loads better because 1) he is much stronger now and 2) because he's stronger, he's able to lift his back and hold it without tension. Medium sitting trot is still a challenge, but I can now sit it well for like 4 or 5 strides before losing it. Sitting only the number of strides you can do well and then going to rising helps. Focusing on really letting your hips swing with each stride helps, dropping your stirrups and peddling the bicycle helps cuz it'll get your hips swinging. Focusing on getting him truly "through" so that he is lifting his withers and base of neck helps. Pony trot to regular trot to pony trot to medium trot in fairly rapid succession might help too if you feel he isn't truly in front of your leg. Lateral work to straight back to lateral, again in fairly rapid succession really helped me.

Btw, Rudy isn't the first horse that challenged my sitting ability. My big, springy moving Lad was also difficult to sit but that was 100% related to tension in his back and was relatively easily addressed with "deep" riding and pony trot until his brain would come back on line. So sometimes it's conformational, as in Rudy's case, and sometimes it's just a rough patch you go through as they gain strength and understanding.

yes, that makes sense. My horse has a short compact back with lots of suspension for a little guy.

[Flight]

Lots of great replies everyone, thanks so much! I've been meaning to reply with some video to add, but I've been at work and it's been busy.

I've definitely tried to just sit up straight and balanced and just embrace the bounce, as in try not to fight it so much. Not to grip anywhere. I've tried it without stirrups and what seems to happen is I bounce back towards the cantle and the front of my pelvis drops down. I prefer to sit closer to the pommel but maybe that is where I need to sit for this saddle/horse??
I may need to find another saddle. Trouble is, this horse is a difficult fit with a really high wither, wide spine and needs big panels to even up the saddle to accomodate those big wide withers. The one I have has big knee rolls, and I have big thighs so that combo isn't great.

I'm not sure now if my horse can be more engaged. He's not the best put together and certainly when you ask for more impulsion, it is a lot worse, not better. When I watch video, his back doesn't look to be moving a lot, but me and the saddle sure are!

[Flight]

Ok so here is some vid. I'm starting to accept the bouncing and not stress so much about it and Norsey is keeping a steady small trot. If I go for any 'second trot' no way can I sit it, or medium/ext.. even rising trot launches me.
Open to suggestions! I have a comp in 2 weeks....

https://youtu.be/0cwjwTI0rMM

[blob]

Flight, thanks for sharing video!

This does remind me of sitting with RP--to get my seat locked in with him. I really had to think of using my seat bones to sit him down on his hind end. That I think made me open my pelvis more and made me sit more on my pockets. You're sitting very evenly on your triangle (pubic bone/seat bones), but for this trot, I think you might need to roll the pelvis up some and sit more on seat bones.

You might also have an easier time in a saddle with less of a thigh block (as strange as that sounds). Do you have another one you can test with or one you can borrow?

[piedmontfields]

I love seeing the video. He is such a big and powerful horse, but you make him look light on his toes.

I agree with blob that you have room to sit much more on the pockets + to lower your ribs towards your hips as you do this (for core stability). To find this spot, it can be helpful to try to bring your upper body back behind the vertical (or what feels behind the vertical). You should feel the lower transverse abs (above pubic bone, between hip bones) activate when you do this. If you do this in front of a mirror, you might be surprised by how much further back and down your upper body could go---and still be upright.

To me, different trots require different degrees of lower ab engagement. I think I would need a lot of lower abs on and ribs down to sit your big guy!

[Chisamba]

I would like to further support what has already been said in terms of sitting a little more toward your bum so that your lower back is flatter.

I also see room for core engagement. high inner thigh and lower abdominal pulsing in time to the stride,

You could try when standing still practice using you lower abs and inner thigh to microscopically lift yourself off the seat. my instructor said create a ball of air and then lift it in time to the step. be very careful not to use your lower leg at all. that mess to stay free and loose so when we post you post in stride. when sitting its in step, or double time. People who believe in the heavy seat abhor this method so try it and if you do not like it, go back to sitting heavy with loose legs.

[piedmontfields]

Chisamba, that is a great description. I don't even think about that, but I do it! My mare prefers that air-filled kind of seat! When I really turn on my abs, there is a bit of "levitation" in that my weight gets more organized and I feel lighter in the saddle---even though I'm still in the saddle.

I do use the heavy seat for moments, though, as needed (half halt was ignored, mare is flying, etc.).

[Chisamba]

Chisamba, that is a great description. I don't even think about that, but I do it! My mare prefers that air-filled kind of seat! When I really turn on my abs, there is a bit of "levitation" in that my weight gets more organized and I feel lighter in the saddle---even though I'm still in the saddle.

I do use the heavy seat for moments, though, as needed (half halt was ignored, mare is flying, etc.).

agreed

[Srhorselady]

I don’t have the experience of the other responders, but I have both seen on others and felt in myself the sitting trot in your video. What they all have in common is horses with wide flatter backs and riders who are not as wide in the hips. As was commented in another thread I think what some of the pros (ie Werth) do is cheat a little when the problem is basically physical. Try hiking your stirrups one hole, and putting just a hint more weight in the stirrups, and just barely hovering. It will improve the the triangle of your hips/leg, and also allow your lower leg to be a little less loose without being noticeable visually. The feel is different of course and you need to work a bit with the aids. I am five foot tall and very narrow through the hips and my schoolmaster was a wide bodied, big strided 16.3 Hanoverian. I could do this type of a sitting trot on him or chair sit him. Otherwise I was bounced out of any saddle. BTW although I understand it feels very unsteady you really don’t look bad in your current sitting trot. Good luck.

[tlkidding]

I think you need more positive tension in your core and legs - like the core engagement described by Chisamba. I notice that once your aids are on for a movement and the horse is complying, your seat is quieter - see a few steps in the SI and the whole HP.

Is he always so light in the reins? Can you ride him just off the snaffle and get a bit more contact? I think the engagement of the upper back through the connection helps engage the lower core muscles for stability and creates that positive tension throughout the torso. I also think if he increases his engagement, changes his balance a bit more over his hind legs, and gives you are more powered up trot stride, he'll actually carry you along better.

Does he do half steps? If so, can you ride the half steps and carry that level of collection into a collected trot and sit that for a few strides before you need to rebalance?

What about a slightly larger seat size saddle so you can flatten onto your pockets a bit more? He's big and looks wide and you are small, so I think really making your lower body drape long and have as much contact with the saddle/horse as possible and engaging everything from your shoulders to hips more may help.

I think the hover can help in the medium/extended but not in the lateral work or if you are working on p/p. I have held onto my bucking strap in the very first extended trot in a PSG test with a spooky horse headed directly toward the photographer crouched on the ground - I was afraid if she moved, my horse would spook and spin me right off. The judge didn't notice/comment.

[Ryeissa]

Overall very nice picture! Lots of good things going on....just need more positive tension.
Think of rebars at the side of your abs
Connect your sternum (push away from your chest) to the lumbars- push out at the sternum and lumbars (ie- get shorter)
Lift your zipper so you have a neutral pelvis
Connect your inner armpits to your core/trunk

think of following your horses' back more as a wave. You are a bit out of sync with the timing. This will help you think down down down and every time your seat comes up use the thigh block.

[demi]

This is a good thread! I used a few of the suggestions today and was really happy with the results. I posted some vids(from before this thread was started) on the progress thread, but today’s sitting trot was better. It was too cloudy to video. The thing that made the difference today was having more positive tension in my core and legs as well as asking Rocky to take a little more contact. It worked. Keeping Rocky with a little more contact in the bridle will be tricky for me though because her little Arab self gets prickly when I ask for too much.

One of the things that happen when we age is losing muscle tone. I didn’t even realize that this was going on but when I read the suggestions here, I looked on my vids, and there it was! By actively thinking about it I was able to make a difference.

[Flight]

Thanks everyone for watching my vid and helping. I'm definitely going to go and try all of the advice and see what works and do a part 2 video. Of course it's raining today, but I'm not complaining because we always desperately need rain.

Blob - my coach really advocates riding on that triangle but I will try to sit more on my seat bones and think about using them to sit him on his hinds.
I agree about the thigh blocks - they are too big. Srhorselandy suggested putting stirrups up a hole, but then I cant fit my (chunky) thighs behind that huge thigh block! I don't have anything else to fit him, but I"m going to contact my saddle fitter and see if there is anything I can trial.

Pied - thankyou i'm definitely going to try this, especially thinking of lowering ribs to hips.

Chisamba - ooh that sounds interesting, will definitely try it. It's that balance between being not too tense but not too floppy and engaging the right parts of me.

Srhorselady - yes, my horse is wide and my saddle has a really wide twist and it can feel like I'm being hit on the bum with a frying pan. I have tried hovering but then I just get pogo sticked right out of the saddle! I'll do it with shorter stirrups and see how I go though. Shorter stirrups does put my thigh up over those stupid knee blocks. I might see if I can put in a half hole.

tkidding - he is a lot less bouncy in the lateral work. When we go straight that's when it's like it connects with my bum and sends me straight upwards! But I will try the more positive tension in my legs and core.
Yes, he is quite light in the contact but in this video and while I practice sitting trot I've given him more rein. I watched a video a couple of days ago and my hands were bouncing too and pulling on his poor mouth, so I've given him extra rein.
I will show some video with him more connected and powered up... I dont think we are doing it right because it is ejector seat x 100000 !!
I'm definitely putting a bucking strap on and going to hold it for sure on the medium/ext. I don't have a choice really, I literally get bounced off.

Ryeissa - Thanks, those are good points to get my core more connected. I'd forgotten about the wave thing too, I remember reading about not getting behind the bounce and keeping up with the down phase otherwise you do get super bounced around.

Demi - good to hear that the positive tension worked for you as well as more contact. I'll have to be careful with the contact because my guy is sensitive too.

Ok rain, gimme a window, I want to go and practice all this!

[Moutaineer]

Laddie has an enormous springy trot, which I could not sit for the life of me when I first got him, so I dumbed it down, and that really didn't help, it was then just slow and bouncy. Now I have him more truly over his back and coming under from behind, he gives me a nice suspension bridge to sit on, and I can look halfway like I know what I'm doing.

My thoughts on watching the video...

I also don't think your saddle is doing you any favors. I think you could go up to a larger seat size, so you aren't getting smacked in the butt every time he takes a step, but also check the front to back balance as it looks like it's tipping you forward. Try sticking a shim under the front and see if that helps as a short term solution.

I think this is making you collapse forward through your core and pinching with your inner upper thigh, which is popping you out of the saddle even more.

You need that positive tension that others have mentioned to recycle the energy through your seat, up your front and down through your shoulder blades, kind of like a water wheel going backwards, so your belly is leading, rather than rolling forwards with the motion and your shoulders leading as you are at the moment.

So, sternum up, shoulder blades down, elbows by your torso (in my case, the advance of middle age has left me a couple of handy soft spots to park my elbows on so they don't flap around and get away from me ) and belly soft and out rather than sucked in.

I'm not saying lean back, because you'd have to go a long way back to be leaning back. I'm saying think about the circular energy flow, which sounds frightfully woowoo, I know, but works for me.

I seem to remember a bit of a discussion about sitting on your butthole a while back. This might be a good place for that visualization also

[mari]

I don't have advice, but I can certainly commiserate. My horse is not nearly as enourmous as yours, and he has a small trot. But he is short-backed, and his back muscles are extremely busy when he moves. Even when he is through and supple and soft, it is a very hard place to sit, confirmed by my dressage instructor.

[piedmontfields]

Oh yeah---definitely review the "sit on your AR" thread.* That is advice provides a very clear reminder about where one's body is in the saddle/in space. And you cannot sit on your AR if your chest is ahead of your pelvis at all.

*If you don't have the video link where JJ Tate explains being taught this, I will share!

[Flight]

Had a practice today taking in everyone's advice. Put my stirrups up a hole, sat more on my bum, thinking of sitting on my AR was the key, have more tone in my abs and legs and let my hips follow the wave.
I had to remember to keep my armpits closed and elbows on squishy bits because my arms wanted to rise up as I bounced, but I think that's going to take practice to remember to keep doing. Definitely helped when I did.

I couldn't quite do yours Chisamba. I'm not sure if it's because I dont try and sit heavy anyway, so I might have a bit of that tone in my upper thighs. I will try it again next ride though.
Shorter reins, but horse was BTV, not a great vid to share on social media, but truly all I was trying to concentrate on was my seat. My left foot is a bit rogue so will work on that down the track.

It absolutely caned my abs. :Like pained them! I really need to work on those!!

Here's some vid from today, I wore the same shirt to keep it all looking the same but I think everyone's input has helped me. Thanks so much!!
https://youtu.be/SWZfSYw6zz4

[Lipsmackerpony88]

Flight, I'm so far from an expert, but I definitely saw improvement throughout your video! Good job!

[piedmontfields]

Love the phrase "caned my abs"! I absolutely saw you making changes for greater effectiveness (and comfort ).

On a kind of related note, I personally think figuring out how to support ourselves sitting a variety of trots is part of riding in a (human) back-healthy way. So it's a good thing to figure out.

[lorilu]

yes. My horse. Bravo has a 15" saddle support surface according to Schleese. Even trainers I have and do work with admit he is difficult to sit. I have found that saddles make a huge difference.... recently moved to a Schleese Pro (this one was a prototype ), and the stirrup bar more under by pelvis really helps. Currently I am standing in my stirrups at the walk to get my seat balanced in the right spot.... and remembering to keep "bouncing" weight in my feet helps. Like many Iberians, Bravo LOOKS like his ass is under him, but in reality he doesn't..... and I can really tell the difference then!!
Doing a bit of piaffe definitely helps, and in warm up doing trot to (forward drifting) piaffe to trot - helps. I cant do walk to piaffe because he uses it against me when I collect for a walk canter trans.....

[lorilu]

I watched your second video and I recognize so much! Def. improvement. For me, I found that if I have a bit more forward with cadence helps immensely - even thinking a bit of passagey-trot. Try a bit more forwardness.....