DeKunffy definitely rode!

[demi]

I just saw a post on a local dressage facebook from CdK’s website advertising journals he’s written. I skimmed through and there’s were 3 photos of him jumping 3 different horses. In my opinion, all three photos were quite impressive. I’ve never followed jumping but to my eye, he looked like an exceptionally good rider. Just sayin.

[demi]

Deleted

[blob]

There are also pictures out there of him riding dressage. And I'll say neither those pictures nor the ones posted in this thread particularly make me think of him as a great rider (esp the middle one).

Having said that, a picture is not everything. ANd I think people who are not esp great riders can still be good trainers and good teachers. And I don't have a strong opinion on DeKnuffy as I haven't read/listened to much of him.

[Ryeissa]

I really admire his philosophy of dressage. No real comment on his riding or lack thereof since I don't know much about his early years.... I find that I gravitate towards different style for my own actual learning but it's more of the biomechcanics way of looking at the horse and rider so more anatomy/kinesthetic base.

[demi]

I didnt mean to start a discussion, I just wanted to show that he could and did ride. Not many dressage riders that I know can jump 6 feet.

I am trying to delete them but it may take while. Sorry...

And in the future I’ll remember that this is a discussion board! My bad!

[Tanga]

Those are when he was 18 or 20 back in Hungary. He came over here as a groom and never showed. He got in as a dressage judge before there were any riding requirements. (I knew all of the big people way back who knew the stories.)

I never said he never actually rode a horse. I said he never really rode here and certainly never showed. I think you should leave the pictures up. They're fine.

I know him because he used to live around here and judge a lot and was one of the L program instructors (I guess it's been 30 years!) I didn't like riding under him as a judge because he would say random stuff that made no sense, but sounded cool if you weren't a real rider. Same thing as an L instructor.

If you get good info from him, great. I prefer people who have had to walk the walk, and don't just talk.

[Chisamba]

I like his jumping position. Its a really great direct release and really letting the horse do its job. I wish you left the pictures up Demi. so I could see what Blob finds so objectionable. I have not seen a picture of him riding dressage in his youth .

I bowed out of one of his dressage clinics because I felt he wanted riders to sit too heavy and that is a pet peeve of mine because I am a bigger rider who used to ride Arabs, ( smaller horses) and I prefer a light centered seat.

they're are a few judges who never got qualifying score is the USA. judges who came from other countries with their FEI judging credentials or who started judging before qualifications were in place.

I think he loves horses but he has an elegance of style in writing that I find too verbose. I think I m a blunt and too the point person

[Ryeissa]

I didnt mean to start a discussion, I just wanted to show that he could and did ride. Not many dressage riders that I know can jump 6 feet.

I am trying to delete them but it may take while. Sorry...

And in the future I’ll remember that this is a discussion board! My bad!

? I am confused. I liked the pictures!

[Chisamba]

next time I suggest you simply put up the links, I believe his Facebook page is public, that way people can see his comments and if they have some opposition they can post it on his page and let him defend himself

[Ponichiwa]

The pictures cited are also on his website: https://www.charlesdekunffy.com/ -- in the home page and the biography page.

I've only ever seen the trot photo of him on the grey horse before.

Edited to fix broken link

[demi]

Good suggestion, Chisamba. And thanks for posting the link, Ponichiwa.

Ryeissa, I tried to take them down because I felt it wasn’t my place to repost them.

[Ryeissa]

Good suggestion, Chisamba. And thanks for posting the link, Ponichiwa.

Ryeissa, I tried to take them down because I felt it wasn’t my place to repost them.

ok, that makes sense!

[Chisamba]

There was a time when the direct release was appreciated. I remember many a lesson where I had to touch the points of the shoulder with both/ each hand over the highest part of the jump. of course I'm old enough to remember when the crest release was invented so that amateurs could buy trained horse and show while supporting themselves on the neck.

of course I also remember when the lowest jumping division was 3 foot and was kind of looked down on a the training or green division.

[blob]

I think the automatic release is still appreciated in many circles. And I think picture 1 & 3 are a good representation of it. But the goal of the automatic/direct release is to maintain straight line to the bit and keep hands independent to move with the horse's bascule over the fence. And in picture number 2 the hands are pointed down and the line is broken.

[Chisamba]

I think the automatic release is still appreciated in many circles. And I think picture 1 & 3 are a good representation of it. But the goal of the automatic/direct release is to maintain straight line to the bit and keep hands independent to move with the horse's bascule over the fence. And in picture number 2 the hands are pointed down and the line is broken.

congratulations. you can quote theory, the automatic release and direct release are not equivalent. hey, there are language use differences. My upbringing was more English and European than American. i specifically mentioned direct release to point of shoulder. specific release, specific purpose.

somewhere I have a couple of photos of myself jumping high probably not as high as De Kunffy that high, but over 5 foot. in one I was jumped out of the tack. my heels came up and I am a bit ahead of the motion. I was riding a horse over a very solid very wide Xc jump,, but I guess that must mean I can't ride.

in another I have a low wide hand, why? because my horse is looking right and the next jump is left. but hey, we were young and clearing a pretty high jump and I don't have a lot of pictures of me riding in my youth. just more proof that despite taking a horse over a jump in excess of 5 foot , obviously I cannot ride eh.

you know what, usually I respect the people and opinions on this board, but on this occasion I feel like people are nit picking to justify previous bias.

I might not be a huge fan of De Kunffy but dang, he is taking a huge jump well and if I had a photo of myself doing it that well I'd be pretty chuffed

[blob]

I actually have no opinion on DeKunffy, so there is no previous bias I'm trying to support. As I said before, I haven't seen him teach, listened to him speak, or read anything he's read. Therefore, I have truly no opinion of him. Truly, none.

I think it's a bit unnecessarily snarky to say 'congratulations. you can quote theory'. Isn't what we're doing, having a theoretical conversation? I did not know there was a difference between an automatic and direct release. I started my riding journey as a jumper. I was taught to do an automatic release once I was past the point of needing support to make it over the jump. I had to be able to do an automatic release over cross rails before my instructors let me me jump anything bigger. So, it's not just about a random line of theory, it's what I learned from my experience. To me, it is valuable and a good discussion on, yes, *theory*, to learn that the direct release is not the same as the automatic release.

[Chisamba]

no I wasn't being snarky, I was directly calling you out for quoting theory instead of responding to my specific comment about release to the point of shoulder.

hey anything, like, " I never heard that, never practiced that, don't understand the point of that. disagree with that " would have been a discussion.

I read your comment as flippant and one upmanship and implying I am too ignorant to know what a automatic release is, which I did not refer to.

[blob]

It was absolutely not my intention to upmanship. I don't consider myself to have more or better theory/experience than anyone on this board--that's why I come here--to discuss and to learn. And I have always valued your experience and expertise, so I had ZERO intention of implying you were ignorant. I am sorry if it came off that way. I will take full responsibility for poor communication. How you took my comments was absolutely not what I intended to say. So, for that I am sorry.

I was just trying to say why I didn't like picture #2 compared to the others. I stand by that-- I think breaking the straight line to the bit over a fence and point hands down would block, rather than encourage bascule. I have always heard the direct release and automatic release used interchangeably. But even if they are not the same thing, I do not think touching the points of the shoulder would create such a straight downward arm/dramatic break a line from hand to bit.

[Ryeissa]

no I wasn't being snarky, I was directly calling you out for quoting theory instead of responding to my specific comment about release to the point of shoulder.

hey anything, like, " I never heard that, never practiced that, don't understand the point of that. disagree with that " would have been a discussion.

I read your comment as flippant and one upmanship and implying I am too ignorant to know what a automatic release is, which I did not refer to.

I didn't read it that way at all...... ?

[Ryeissa]

I think the automatic release is still appreciated in many circles. And I think picture 1 & 3 are a good representation of it. But the goal of the automatic/direct release is to maintain straight line to the bit and keep hands independent to move with the horse's bascule over the fence. And in picture number 2 the hands are pointed down and the line is broken.

congratulations. you can quote theory, the automatic release and direct release are not equivalent. hey, there are language use differences. My upbringing was more English and European than American. i specifically mentioned direct release to point of shoulder. specific release, specific purpose.

somewhere I have a couple of photos of myself jumping high probably not as high as De Kunffy that high, but over 5 foot. in one I was jumped out of the tack. my heels came up and I am a bit ahead of the motion. I was riding a horse over a very solid very wide Xc jump,, but I guess that must mean I can't ride.

in another I have a low wide hand, why? because my horse is looking right and the next jump is left. but hey, we were young and clearing a pretty high jump and I don't have a lot of pictures of me riding in my youth. just more proof that despite taking a horse over a jump in excess of 5 foot , obviously I cannot ride eh.

you know what, usually I respect the people and opinions on this board, but on this occasion I feel like people are nit picking to justify previous bias.

I might not be a huge fan of De Kunffy but dang, he is taking a huge jump well and if I had a photo of myself doing it that well I'd be pretty chuffed

I have no idea what you are getting at here sorry.....I have never heard of a direct release in the USA....? here are the three crest releases we use in the USA....maybe things are getting sticky due to this...?

The three basic releases are:

a long crest release with hands held against the crest about halfway up the neck so that the rider can steady the hands against the crest;
a short crest release with the rider steadied by hands held against the horse's crest close to the saddle;
an automatic release where the rider maintains steady contact with the bit while following the contraction and extension of the horse's head and neck through takeoff, arc and landing with flexible elbow and shoulder joints.

[Ryeissa]

I think breaking the straight line to the bit over a fence and point hands down would block, rather than encourage bascule. I have always heard the direct release and automatic release used interchangeably. But even if they are not the same thing, I do not think touching the points of the shoulder would create such a straight downward arm/dramatic break a line from hand to bit.

agree. the straight line is best...... but I just pray to hang on and jumping makes me throw up so my experience IRL is limited

[Ponichiwa]

Very unrelated sidebar: I'm really glad the horse-going-down-a-really-steep-hill test of yore has all but disappeared nowadays. Whole lotta no-thanks. Example:



There's one of those shots on CdK's page and it just gives me the holy-soft-tissue-injuries-Batman! willies.

[Chisamba]

well even close friends tell me I take things in a way that was not intended. haha. I disagree with them and say I take things they way they were subtly intended. But I have also learned that if I am the only one who saw it that way, then it was me. so I apologize.

[blob]

Message boards are tricky sometimes!

Ponichiwa, YIKES. Impressive to see that forward position on such a steep incline. I'd be afraid of going right over the horse's head and us both summersaulting. I'm glad to see there's a helmet on for this one...

[Chisamba]

I did write a long post describing the terms as I understand them and it did not upload. I shall simplify.

automatic release, allowing the hand to follow the bit forward with a straight line .

direct release, allowing the hand to go forward in the direction you would like the horse to go.

examples. in dressage. I want the horse to lengthen its neck into an extended trot. I push my hand forward but do not lower it so the horse reaches up snd open to creat room for the energy of the extension.

this would be different from a free trot where I would push my hand firsts and downward, showing the horse u wanted it to stretch into the but but down and out.

in jumping it I am doing a big jump but have a very tight turn after the jump, I will stretch my hand forward s like for the automatic release , but also look toward and move my hand toward the next jump.

there are horses that lift their heads too early, bringing their back feet into the jump. the point of shoulder release is used to teach the horse to wait til its over the crest of the jump before elevating. of course much the same is achieved with a martingale. which. many hunters and jumpers use as normal tack

[Chisamba]

just to make sure we are talking about the same thing wrt point of shoulder

[Chisamba]

considered by many to be the most elegant jumper ever.

https://images.app.goo.gl/eEwDoBmq2rSV7UEp7

yes its a lovely straight line but over the spread you see his hand reaching toward the point of the shower. i really admire Bill, totally my jumping hero

[Chisamba]

Harry and snowman, the auction rescue turned to jumper.

https://images.app.goo.gl/PN1m8X68UjoaTbp67

[Chisamba]

Neil Shapiro showing a direct point of shoulder release.

https://images.app.goo.gl/3r6hx2HHNebqqwER8

[Chisamba]

direct release into a turn. I thought this was Hartwig Steenken, but the photo says it's Alwin Sckockenmohle

https://images.app.goo.gl/PndmRPeRJSehCBKz6

[blob]

considered by many to be the most elegant jumper ever.

https://images.app.goo.gl/eEwDoBmq2rSV7UEp7

yes its a lovely straight line but over the spread you see his hand reaching toward the point of the shower. i really admire Bill, totally my jumping hero

It's interesting to hear the description of the direct release. I think in this picture (which I agree is lovely) and in the others you shared, and in 2 of the 3 original photos in this thread there is still a definite straight line. And it seems like in all cases the hand is moving forward to allow the horse to come through over the jump. The shoulder comes up and forward when the horse is jumping, so I'd think to follow/reach the point of the shoulder you'd also be coming forward, rather than straight down.

But if the goal of a direct release is not necessarily to follow the shoulder, but rather to go where you want the horse to go, I still am curious as to why he would want to direct straight down at the point of take-off (which was still only in that one photo). Having said that, it's also hard to put this much scrutiny into a single picture. Because maybe that particular release would look different a microsecond later when the horse mid-flight, rather than take off. Or maybe that is not what CdK would consider ideal either--no rider does exactly what they hope to or want to every time. Or maybe he is doing something specifically to manage or correct something related to that particular horse.

[Ryeissa]

if something works for you, great. Call it whatever you want, just know that how you define something should be consistent when you are on a message board so we can translate the words to ideas.
Each horse is different jumping just like in dressage, there are times to do what the horse needs.

[Josette]

Chisamba - Thank you for that picture of Main Spring - I saw them at Madison Square Garden MANY years ago. Also, Idle Dice and Rodney Jenkins. There may be a wee bit generation gap in some of these conversations as they certainly were my idols growing up.

[Chisamba]

Chisamba - Thank you for that picture of Main Spring - I saw them at Madison Square Garden MANY years ago. Also, Idle Dice and Rodney Jenkins. There may be a wee bit generation gap in some of these conversations as they certainly were my idols growing up.

I almost included Rodney Jenkins who used to push his hands high and wide , but I didn't want him to be overly criticized for his unconventional style.

[demi]

well even close friends tell me I take things in a way that was not intended. haha. I disagree with them and say I take things they way they were subtly intended. But I have also learned that if I am the only one who saw it that way, then it was me. so I apologize.

I think being able to see the subtleties is a gift you have. It makes life harder at times when you see the negative subtleties, but on the other hand, the positive subtleties are awesome! Being able to instantly see a beautiful display of horsemanship (or feel it in your own horses), without having to tediously measure it against a standard, is like seeing a rainbow.

[Koolkat]

direct release into a turn. I thought this was Hartwig Steenken, but the photo says it's Alwin Sckockenmohle

https://images.app.goo.gl/PndmRPeRJSehCBKz6

I love this picture. The rider's body has turned into the direction they are heading, rock solid through the leg, without disturbing the horse in anyway.

And dating myself, but I like DeK's jumping pictures quite a bit. His body is right where it needs to be, perfectly balanced over the horse's shoulder/bascule, to stay out of the way. His arms are independent. But I took riding/jumping lessons in the 60's.

[Chisamba]

direct release into a turn. I thought this was Hartwig Steenken, but the photo says it's Alwin Sckockenmohle

https://images.app.goo.gl/PndmRPeRJSehCBKz6

I love this picture. The rider's body has turned into the direction they are heading, rock solid through the leg, without disturbing the horse in anyway.

And dating myself, but I like DeK's jumping pictures quite a bit. His body is right where it needs to be, perfectly balanced over the horse's shoulder/bascule, to stay out of the way. His arms are independent. But I took riding/jumping lessons in the 60's.

yes!! we date ourselves , although I started in the late sixties through eighties. but it was when I came to the USA in mid eighties that I experienced the.major change in jump style

[LindaJ]

Several years back I used to go and audit clinics that Charles deKunffy used to give in North East Ohio. (I didn’t have the $$ to ride) I witnessed him get on several horses to help riders out. He had a very effective and educated seat and aids IMHO. I personally am still in awe at how he is able to get riders horses going for them through his instruction. I could have sat for days and just soaked it all in. What I learned at those clinics translated to my rides at home and two of the books I have of his are well worn. Now I enjoy the videos of JJ Tate with him giving clinics at her place.

[zevida]

I personally am still in awe at how he is able to get riders horses going for them through his instruction. I could have sat for days and just soaked it all in.

I audited two clinics he did and I have never seen a clinician transform horses and riders with instruction the way he did. It was incredible. So few can actually teach, he was a true master instructor.

I am pretty sure I saved my notes I’ll have to dig them up.