Guess the Score

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Tanga
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Guess the Score

Postby Tanga » Tue Jan 26, 2021 2:51 am

OK, ya'll like videos, so I'll put it out there. FINALLY did a GP test and didn't get myself eliminated for going off course! (Didn't go off even once!) Not even close to perfect, or very good.

We did finally halt instead of stepping in place like we started doing this year for no reason. Of course we forgot how to collected walk even though we've been practicing like crazy. We've been doing 15 CLEAN ones at home, but here she wasn't changing her right hind and I can't feel it. I dropped one curb rein 1/2 way in and left it because I didn't want to mess up getting it. And no, that sound is not me bouncing in the saddle. When she's concentrating, she softly clicks her teeth to keep time. (The noseband is so loose you can slip it off.) The half passes at trot aren't great, but we're on our way to getting better. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gt3oYRG ... e=youtu.be

What score do you think?

And given my comments about Wellington, look at this sort of similar horse at 2:16. The horse has way better extended trots and half passes, but some difficulties, so about as on par as I could find. Compare the piaffe/passage to most of the horses.

https://gdf.coth.com/article/live-strea ... 45-a-m-est

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Re: Guess the Score

Postby Lipsmackerpony88 » Tue Jan 26, 2021 4:44 am

No idea on scores but thank you for sharing! Congratulations on riding the full GP test! I can not imagine pulling that off. It's so nice to see normal riders riding... The journey is fun to watch, from all levels.

Unfortunately the link didn't show a horse at the 2:16 mark for me, so I can not compare.

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Re: Guess the Score

Postby khall » Tue Jan 26, 2021 5:11 am

Mid to high 50’s? The bay horse hmm definitely some serious issues there. Passage was eh piaffe not really there. Maybe low 60’s? Missed the 2 times completely

Hey you both are going down CL at GP and putting it out there. Hats off for sure

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Re: Guess the Score

Postby Flight » Tue Jan 26, 2021 9:08 am

62 - 64%?

Not really sure, but congrats!!!! How cool riding a full GP test with no mistakes like that. Well done :)

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Re: Guess the Score

Postby Ryeissa » Tue Jan 26, 2021 1:48 pm

63?

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Re: Guess the Score

Postby demi » Tue Jan 26, 2021 6:48 pm

I don’t have a clue how to guess the score but thanks for posting the test. I’ve watched it twice now, and the things I liked were that you really seem to be riding back to front, and that you give her plenty of freedom to do her job. I also liked how you gave her a good pat on the neck after the ones. I would bet money that your mares are happy horses.

I watched the other horse you referenced and the score was 58.9. I havent read the tests to see where the coefficients were, or what the directives are, but that seemed like a reasonable score just from a casual viewing. I appreciated how she patted him so genuinely after the test.

Thanks again for posting your ride and the link to the other rides. I plan to read the test so I get a better understanding and then watch some more rides.

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Re: Guess the Score

Postby Lipsmackerpony88 » Tue Jan 26, 2021 10:21 pm

Tanga, you seemed so relaxed and confident! I agree with demi, I love seeing the rider pat the horse :)

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Re: Guess the Score

Postby Sue B » Tue Jan 26, 2021 11:32 pm

Wow! great job Tanga!

I would give that test a 60-62, but I ain't no pro so.....

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Re: Guess the Score

Postby piedmontfields » Wed Jan 27, 2021 4:46 pm

I am not skilled at scoring, but I think you and your mare showed both good work and room for improvement. Grand Prix is so hard! Pros can make it look easy, which is crazy. Congratulations for your totally on course test!

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Re: Guess the Score

Postby StraightForward » Wed Jan 27, 2021 6:57 pm

Congratulations Tanga, thank you for sharing! I am not qualified to hazard a guess on your score, but will be curious to hear if you decide to share it. :)
Keep calm and canter on.

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Re: Guess the Score

Postby Ryeissa » Wed Jan 27, 2021 7:03 pm

I really like seeing these videos!

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Re: Guess the Score

Postby Tanga » Wed Jan 27, 2021 9:10 pm

I will give details tonight. I will share scores, but I want you to look at it and compare it to Wellington, particularly the piaffe and passage.

Here's the I-2 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pinb4ED ... e=youtu.be Sorry it's sideways and I can't fix it. Yes, we still have the collected walk and ones issue! Argh! Note the pirouettes. They had just dragged the arena, so when I came down the CL to do the second one, I was SO impressed with the large dinner plate sized circle from the left one, and at the end CL, I saw the right one was matching. What do you think the score was?

(I'm not just being mean. Just to trying to show about scoring and see the comparisons.)

And, as an aside, I am SO glad I got those boot crowns to add height to my boot. It really makes me leg look better.

And, yes, they're pretty happy horses, esp. since they got all of the "bad" carrots and apples at the food giveaway I work at, and they are stuffed full. I didn't take Quinn to this because I wanted to get through this. Both sisters, even though they are constantly biting at each other and going after each other, were neighing like babies for each other. Quilla was very happy and mellow at the show, though. That was a bare workout for her. She didn't break a sweat. (It was cold for here--50's.)

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Re: Guess the Score

Postby Ryeissa » Wed Jan 27, 2021 9:14 pm

Tanga wrote:
And given my comments about Wellington, look at this sort of similar horse at 2:16. The horse has way better extended trots and half passes, but some difficulties, so about as on par as I could find. Compare the piaffe/passage to most of the horses.



yeah, they lacked collection/engagment. the hocks were way out. otherwise looked nice....

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Re: Guess the Score

Postby Ryeissa » Wed Jan 27, 2021 9:16 pm

Tanga wrote:I will give details tonight. I will share scores, but I want you to look at it and compare it to Wellington, particularly the piaffe and passage.

Here's the I-2 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pinb4ED ... e=youtu.be Sorry it's sideways and I can't fix it. Yes, we still have the collected walk and ones issue! Argh! Note the pirouettes. They had just dragged the arena, so when I came down the CL to do the second one, I was SO impressed with the large dinner plate sized circle from the left one, and at the end CL, I saw the right one was matching. What do you think the score was?

(I'm not just being mean. Just to trying to show about scoring and see the comparisons.)

And, as an aside, I am SO glad I got those boot crowns to add height to my boot. It really makes me leg look better.

And, yes, they're pretty happy horses, esp. since they got all of the "bad" carrots and apples at the food giveaway I work at, and they are stuffed full. I didn't take Quinn to this because I wanted to get through this. Both sisters, even though they are constantly biting at each other and going after each other, were neighing like babies for each other. Quilla was very happy and mellow at the show, though. That was a bare workout for her. She didn't break a sweat. (It was cold for here--50's.)


Kind of hard to watch being sideways, but major credit for doing these hard tests. Nice job

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Re: Guess the Score

Postby khall » Thu Jan 28, 2021 2:43 am

Tanga I thought the I2 flowed much smoother. Really good job.

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Re: Guess the Score

Postby Tanga » Thu Jan 28, 2021 2:48 am

OK. It's dark and cold, so I will type.

So, I know this judge pretty well. I usually won't ride under her, so I scribe for her a fair amount. She's one of the more confusing ones to scribe for because the things she says don't really match what I see. I rode I-2 under her two years ago and got 60%--it was not even close to as good as now as our p/p was bad. She did a ride a test seminar, and from her comments, you'd think she'd be a high scoring judge--a lot of, why not an 8? even though there were major issues. OK, but I get just kind of saying the same things that can apply to most anything because judging all day is hard.

In the Wellington thread, I mentioned how high the scores are, at least compared to here. I go to this show most of the time because it is close, so makes it affordable to me. I show under the same 10 judges most of the time and so do most people here. The judges know who owns the place and who boards there, as well as "the" people. If I get a judge who I rarely ride under, I tend to do FAR better, getting much higher scores and beating most people. I rode under Rodriguez (who was judging at Wellington) a year or two ago and got really high scores, and she was talking to me at the scoreboard when I was done saying how nice it was to see horses without their mouths cranked shut and how happy they both looked. A little over a year ago at the champs where both girls were not at good as at regular shows for various reasons, I got 3-5% on average higher scores, esp. under judges I had never ridden under. So--judging bias.

In the GP class I rode agains Bea DiGrazia--yeah, Derek's wife. She was on what looked like an old school horse that made Quilla look like a flashy knee snapping mover, she had a "passage" you could only tell was not a jog because that's what it said in the test. Her "piaffe" was 5/6 steps shuffling and moving on Her pirouettes with pretty bad as were her half passes, and her extensions minimal. I watched it all, and I spend a lot of time scribing and judging along with things like Wellington, so I think my eye is pretty accurate. I would have given it 55% to be generous. She got 60%.

I got 57% on that ride. Yeah. I didn't expect a super high score, but was in the same range as you guys--at least 60%, maybe 63%. I have almost every time I've competed even in the worst test gotten 7's on ALL of my p/p trot transitions.

Follow along with the scores like I did and see if you see the same thing. Here are the scores and the comments. My comments are in ()
halt at x--6 quarters L before halt (???)
ext trot--5.5 hind legs out, show more push (???)
half pass R--6.5 needs better flow and self carriage
half pass L--6 quarters trail at start
halt/back--5.5 walk steps to halt (????) fussy in bridle
ext trot--5.5 needs push, hind legs more under
passage--5.5, too trotlike, hind legs more under (??????)
piaffe--6, a bit earthbound (???????, notice the 15 ON the SPOT steps)
transitions--6, vague (???????)
passage--6, needs lift (seriously, compare to Wellington and what they got)
ext walk--6, hurried, needs stretch into contact
col. walk--5.5, quickening, unsteady in contact (seriously, this was WAY worse than ext. should be 3 points different
proceed in passage--4 neck restricted, trotted (argh!!!! No she didn't and no it wasn't. That was WAY better than many, if a bit unsteady)
passage--5, losing balance, lost rhythm (yes she did a step or two, but in Wellington they got 7's having bobbles)
piaffe--5.5, earthbound, quickens (Not my best, but compare Wellington scores
transitions--5.5 vague out (??????)
passage--6, needs lift
canter trans--6, not quite straight (????)
9 2's--6.5, correct count, needs better col
ext canter--6, slow to develop, then hurried (??)
collected and flying change--5.5, must change on diagonal line, more collection (BTW, I KNOW she does this, so I made 100% for sure to change CLEARLY ON the diagonal line)
half passes--6.5, fairly well centered, crooked before last change
one tempi--3.0, not changing behind (I'm cool with that, it was bad)
L pirouette--6.0, together behind at start (NOT!)
change--6.5, fairly straight
R pirouette--6.0, losing balance, crooked on CL (just completely made up, didn't happen. To CENTER a pir, you have to start slightly to the side of CL to keep it centered)
trot at M--6.0, lost left curb, some resistance. (???? Who CARES? I lost the L curb six movements ago and NO resistance)
ext trot--5.5 HL out (no, it wasn't, and I usually get 7's on these by the end of the test and that was good.)
passage --6.0 not always straight, needs more secure lift
piaffe--5.5--earthbound, losing lift (are you fucking kidding???? 13 ON THE SPOT up steps.)
transition--6.0--vague (not it wasn't)
passage--5.5, a little trot like (not even)
halt--6.0 fairly straight (OMG!!! I FINALLY get her to halt square and not move and a fucking 6?????)

So, yeah. I am PISSED. If I am getting 5.5 and 6's on the piaffe and passage, the other people (the woman who was in I-2 is at the barn and had jog passage and 6 steps of shuffling piaffe, too) should have gotten 2's and 3's. But in the I-2 it was the same. Quilla was better and all of those hoppy things in the p/p were all smoothed out, and we got 58% to the other person's much worse ride's at 60%. (This is why I always ride two rides--both me and the horses are always a little nervous and off the first ride, so 99% of the time the second is better.)

To be fair, pretty much everyone except a few cool people got bad scores. There were a LOT of training level rides, and most were right about 60%, many below.
piaffe 12-15 steps--6, a bit earthbound.

Thanks for listening. I will survive and come out of this more pissed and working harder to do better. I hope it is educational. I don't know where ya'll are, but this happens all of the time and has happened to me for a long time. (I was the one showing FEI on an Appy 30 years ago.) So, when I bitch about the way high scores at the top shows where horses do 4/5 steps of shuffling piaffe, or jump back and forth, or whatever, you know where I am coming from. I wish I were judged at that standard!

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Re: Guess the Score

Postby Flight » Thu Jan 28, 2021 5:15 am

Thanks for sharing all that Tanga, it's good that you have someone videoing your tests so you can see for yourself if you agree with what you are being scored and commented on.
This is such a hard sport!

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Re: Guess the Score

Postby Lipsmackerpony88 » Thu Jan 28, 2021 5:40 am

Thanks for sharing! I'm sorry the judging was confusing/disappointing for you but hopefully it will go better from here on out! You completed a GP test! That's something I can only ever dream of doing.

And I liked the I-2 test a lot. What was your score on that one?

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Re: Guess the Score

Postby Kelo1 » Thu Jan 28, 2021 2:03 pm

Hey welcome to the "almost there at GP" high 50s club. It's a super annoying place to be but we have cookies! :lol:

For the record, I think you guys look great, and there was a whole lot to love about that! Congrats on getting to this place with your wonderful partner, what a joyful thing.

As far as scoring, I hear what you're saying about unfair judging. When I"m scrambling for every half point I can get with my poor, trying horse, and then see these elite $$$ folks get a 7 on a halt that never actually included 4 feet on the ground at the same time, it is mind-blowingly infuriating. I see it across the disciplines I'm involved in, and I don't know what you can do about it as it's simply politics.

I really don't know what to tell you other than what I tell myself -- you're good enough, you belong there, and fate will bring you enough luck and the correct judge to get you over the score hump. Just gotta keep working and always, always, always be grateful for the generosity of my horse that I'm here at all.

And then maybe have a cookie.

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Re: Guess the Score

Postby demi » Thu Jan 28, 2021 3:06 pm

Nice post, Kelo.

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Re: Guess the Score

Postby demi » Thu Jan 28, 2021 3:27 pm

I had never even read a GP test before last night, but I read it, along with the scores and directives while I watched your test again. It was very educational. As a peanut gallery spectator, I thought the scoring was basically reasonable. I did see some places that I definitely thought the marks could have been higher. There is only one collective mark which is for general impression and I think I would have given you a 7, fairly good. That still wouldn’t have change the final score by much.

I think in general, dressage judging is way to political. Cranked nosebands, behind the vertical, flinging the front feet, etc. etc isn’t penalized. And that sucks!

I don’t even bother to watch most competitive dressage but I like watching you and Quilla. I look forward to watching your progress.

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Re: Guess the Score

Postby blob » Thu Jan 28, 2021 3:55 pm

One of the challenges with scoring is that judges are told to derive scores from the horse's gait score. So, if the horse is determined to have a '7' trot, doing things just fine gets a 7. Doing things well get an 8, doing things with issues can be a 6.

This is a frustrating thing because if you have an average mover, it's just so much harder to get a good score and frustrating to watch a fancy mover make mistakes and outscore you. I think also what constitutes a '7' mover has changed. It's more about flash and length of stride and less about correctness.

This is one place where eventing dressage does it better. There the score is not derived from the gait score. It's also why they had introduced the rider tests for awhile, but those never caught on.

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Re: Guess the Score

Postby Ryeissa » Thu Jan 28, 2021 3:59 pm

demi wrote:I think in general, dressage judging is way to political. Cranked nosebands, behind the vertical, flinging the front feet, etc. etc isn’t penalized. And that sucks!

I don’t even bother to watch most competitive dressage but I like watching you and Quilla. I look forward to watching your progress.


eh. I see more and more talk about this and I have had clinics where this is definitely addressed. I think its really improved, and I was the biggest critic ~ 5 yrs ago. I am starting to enjoy watching dressage.

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Re: Guess the Score

Postby demi » Thu Jan 28, 2021 4:14 pm

Ryeissa wrote:
demi wrote:I think in general, dressage judging is way to political. Cranked nosebands, behind the vertical, flinging the front feet, etc. etc isn’t penalized. And that sucks!

I don’t even bother to watch most competitive dressage but I like watching you and Quilla. I look forward to watching your progress.


eh. I see more and more talk about this and I have had clinics where this is definitely addressed. I think its really improved, and I was the biggest critic ~ 5 yrs ago. I am starting to enjoy watching dressage.


I can’t even remember when I quit watching competitive dressage but maybe I need to have another look. On some training videos, I have noticed that some of the younger riders out there are really lovely to watch. I very much liked the riders in the 2019 CDS San Diego Symposium.

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Re: Guess the Score

Postby Ponichiwa » Thu Jan 28, 2021 4:31 pm

I've ridden a lot of 57 - 59% GP rides (just took a look at my score history and I had 7 out of 10 attempts in one year alone. Now wasn't that a fun walk down memory lane). Sometimes what you need is a judge that sees "ok" work as a 6 instead of 5.5-- makes all the difference.

I'll also say that the way to get > 60 consistently is to have the work appear seamless. Yes, it's hard, and yes, there's nowhere to hide, but if you have any won't-give-you-benefit-of-the-doubt judges that tend to see 5.5 instead of 6.0, the work has to have fluidity. This is where I struggled (and still to this day need to improve although I've lost my GP horse and am rebuilding).

Here's my avg history to help solidify my membership in the Kelo Cookie Club:
Prix St Georges - 62.727
I1 - 64.244
Grand Prix - 59.650

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Re: Guess the Score

Postby Sue B » Thu Jan 28, 2021 5:58 pm

A few years ago i attended the first phase of "L" as an auditor to learn more about judge's thought processes. I can verify that the first thing learner judges are told is to base all scores off of the gait score. You are to watch the horse move, decide in your head what your overall gait score will be and carry on from there. Ridiculous We watched like an hour of videos in which the L participants were to declare gait score. When Axel was asked why this is the sole criteria, and what about very lovely, submissive etc horses with average gaits, he declared them not "real" dressage horses. Lovely, well-trained animals but not what "we in dressage are looking for". Let me clear, I am NOT faulting Axel, I think he is a good judge to show under and I even like his clinics. I am faulting the idiotic USDF, FEI and whatever other initials exists, and there Eurocentric judging mandates brought down from on high. It is simply not the sport I fell in love with 40 years ago, but so be it. Won't stop me from enjoying my horses and riding in the occasional show.

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Re: Guess the Score

Postby demi » Thu Jan 28, 2021 6:03 pm

Do they use the same numbering system for scoring gaits? What score number does and average mover get?

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Re: Guess the Score

Postby tlkidding » Thu Jan 28, 2021 6:16 pm

I've had rides like this (or judging like this). There's one judge I would prefer not to ride under because she doesn't like my horses' type. On the other hand, there's a judge who absolutely loves him and over scores us. And then others who are accurate and fair. If everyone was scoring lower than normal under this judge, don't take it personally.

I think some of the comments don't match up exactly but most of the scores are ok/consistent if a little low. In the piaffe, shouldn't the hind toes come out of the footing? I think that might be hurting the scores there and if you let her creep forward, is it better (you get 1-2 meters I think). Also I feel like you need to be braver in the extended movements. And I think just trying to get everything more consistent will raise your scores a lot - she's just a little irregular/inconsistent in most of the movements, either in the rhythm, contact, throughness, etc.

Can you show her in a snaffle? Could you be braver with the releases and the corrections/fixes in the movements in a snaffle? Were you in an AA class or Open? I usually feel like judges give "bonus points" to average AAs on average horses who make it through an FEI test and do all the movements.

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Re: Guess the Score

Postby tlkidding » Thu Jan 28, 2021 6:19 pm

demi wrote:Do they use the same numbering system for scoring gaits? What score number does and average mover get?


I think average mover with 3 clear gaits should be around a 6.5 for most judges. Sometimes they'll score you down if they feel like you are stifling the gaits. Some judges also have "types" and will always start the base scores lower for a earthbound horse with clear gaits than a lighter horse, or one that has a more level balance/outline versus a higher neck and head carriage, etc. I've run into that before, but a consistent and extremely accurate test can make up for it.

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Re: Guess the Score

Postby blob » Thu Jan 28, 2021 6:32 pm

tlkidding wrote:
demi wrote:Do they use the same numbering system for scoring gaits? What score number does and average mover get?


I think average mover with 3 clear gaits should be around a 6.5 for most judges. Sometimes they'll score you down if they feel like you are stifling the gaits. Some judges also have "types" and will always start the base scores lower for a earthbound horse with clear gaits than a lighter horse, or one that has a more level balance/outline versus a higher neck and head carriage, etc. I've run into that before, but a consistent and extremely accurate test can make up for it.


MM has gotten everywhere from a 4.5 to a 7.5 as a gait score. I consider her a very correct mover, though not especially flashy. I think her trot is very average (clear 2 beat and diagonal pairs, good hind leg, not a lot of length of stride or freedom in the shoulder), but she has a very good walk. Only one judge gave her the 4.5 but it made me not want to ride for that judge again. Because if every score derives from the gait score and you think my horse is a 4.5 that means us putting in basically a foot perfect test would get us a 60%. And it tells me tat you really don't think my horse belongs in the dressage ring.

6.5 is usually what she gets so I think TLkidding is likely accurate. but the range of 4.5-6.5 shows there is a lot of room for interpretation.

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Re: Guess the Score

Postby Kelo1 » Thu Jan 28, 2021 9:25 pm

Ponichiwa wrote:Here's my avg history to help solidify my membership in the Kelo Cookie Club:

*squints*

Hmmmm......yeah..... that'll do it, you can have a cookie, too. 8-)

Heck, here have a second one, because it's all so annoying and honestly we deserve it :lol:

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Re: Guess the Score

Postby Ponichiwa » Thu Jan 28, 2021 9:38 pm

Kelo1 wrote:
Ponichiwa wrote:Here's my avg history to help solidify my membership in the Kelo Cookie Club:

*squints*

Hmmmm......yeah..... that'll do it, you can have a cookie, too. 8-)

Heck, here have a second one, because it's all so annoying and honestly we deserve it :lol:


Isn't it the worst? So close and yet so very very far.

I'm all about the consolation cookies though. Cheers!

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Re: Guess the Score

Postby Sue B » Thu Jan 28, 2021 10:23 pm

There were 3 sessions over several weeks so three different high level judges, but the consensus was "average" off-breed mover 6-7, average purpose-bred dressage horse 7-9, so there is some overlap. My Rudy generally gets 7 for gaits, he's a small TB who can look super cute and elegant in the sand box when I ride effectively, so it's not really me I'm worried about. The problem I have with basing movement scores on gait scores is that a tense purpose-bred warmblood on his "worst" day can score higher than an "average" horse on his best day. In my mind, test scores used to be more about the quality of training than the in-born quality of gaits. Could be wrong, I suppose. Just seems to me that folks complain about amateur riders trying to show horses that move too big for them to handle (the trot especially) while at the very same time, punishing those who ride a less extravagant mover.

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Re: Guess the Score

Postby Flight » Thu Jan 28, 2021 10:39 pm

I've sat in on a few judges seminars and they are taught not to penalise a good moving horse as much as you would penalise a poorer moving horse. Just because it makes a mistake, it should still score higher. I kinda get that, but I wish dressage comps was more about the training and less about being able to buy a fancy mover.

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Re: Guess the Score

Postby Tanga » Thu Jan 28, 2021 11:34 pm

I thought I replied this morning. Apparently I didn't submit.

lipsmacker--I put the I-2 score in the post. it was 58%. I agree it was a lot smoother and better, but clearly not scored better. One reason I usually ride two tests is both me and the horses are better in the second one 99% of the time.

demi--The collective mark in the FEI tests now is just for the rider. I got a 6. Yeah. If I'd have gotten a 7 for that and 7's for my good transitions, piaffe, passage, (or even 6's) let alone 7's for my halts, which I deserved, I would have been WELL over 60%.

Also, eventing dressage is done the same way, basing the score in the gaits. I spent the day with Marilyn Payne (Rio Olympics eventing dressage judge) last year at a freestyle symposium by Janet Foy and she based it from the gaits.

On my Appy, I was ALWAYS in the 58-59% club. But with me getting better and the horses nicer, I honestly haven't really had a ride under 60% except the for lowest scoring judges in a long time. I think the 30 years of work on it have made some improvements.

tlkidding--For the GP, the piaffe is supposed to be 12-15 steps ON THE SPOT. The one meter allowed forward is in the I-2. The way that is scored (look at Wellington) is a LOT of BS. You see MANY GP horses doing 5/6 steps on the spot. As to improving it, she's improved a lot. She actually has always been rock solid at doing it on the spot and creeping does not help. She did used to shuffle. She's getting much better. (The husband of the woman in the I-2 class said she was really nice in lifting in the passage/piaffe. And, based on me watching her and the other GP horse, I should have gotten at least 2 points better than both of them there. They both did not lift their feet at all.)

As for the extensions, that's big for her. She just doesn't ever look like she's opening up even though it feels full bore when you ride her. I am working on getting it to look like it feels, but there is only so much I can do. She will never articulate the hock and knee there to make it look big. I am in the AA class. And, yes I can show her in a snaffle, but I don't think it's best. I ride her in a snaffle 99% of the time and she's good, but used to have an issue with her dropping her front end away from me, and when she and I get nervous at a show, that's way more likely to happen, so I can keep it together at the show. I feel like I can be brave in the double, which has a super short curb and really loose chain, so she really doesn't overreact to it. I totally get the inconsistent/irregularities there. We're working on it! I was working on it and then got into forgetting the tests, so we're going back and forth. Next time we'll get both. I'm working on a much more collected passage, which is easier for both of us, and I finally figured out works much better. It's when she goes forward too much that we lose the regularity.

Flight--100% agree. Dressage means "training," not buy a big mover. We'll have an actual sport when we take out the gaits component. They won't, though, because of the huge amount of money in that business of breeding, buying, and selling them.

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Re: Guess the Score

Postby MsM » Thu Jan 28, 2021 11:51 pm

The gaits in scoring has been an issue since I can remember. I audited part of an L program maybe 20 years ago (one of the earliest ones anyway) and heard the same thing about starting with the gaits score. The justification was first that you needed to use that to separate correctly done movements, and secondly that "a poorly trained horse wont have good gaits". At least at the upper levels there are a lot of movements to score that require training and not just god-given talent. More difficult to make up the points at the lower levels!

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Re: Guess the Score

Postby exvet » Fri Jan 29, 2021 2:32 am

Boy, late to the party but can I really relate to the gaits score issue. I find that my collection (past and present) of '6' movers have given me loads of experience in terms of the 'ceiling effect' and frustration with the 'almost there' but....but....how did they? when they had x, y, z mistakes. etc. Of course I've only competed through PSG; but, I expect to see no difference if Junior and I get to compete beyond that. My nemesis has always been tension....it's a common problem with welsh cobs, especially when you're trying to push that envelope to get the higher scores......but it is what it is. My horses - purebred and crossbred most often receive 6 for the gait score. There have been a few exceptions where they have received a 7; but, that's been few and far between. Still, my 6 movers have earned 7, 8 and 9s on individual movements - the typical ones like halts but also the not so typical for the 'average mover' such as an 8 for medium or extended trots (Monty was the king).

Tanga your test(s) were fun to watch and there were multiple places where I felt the score was too far south. Unfortunately my vote/opinion doesn't count; but, I had a similar experience when I came out of my test on Friday (only second level) and my friend/instructor (and L grad), said, "You know it was a correct test and nothing to be ashamed of, in fact I bet you get a 62 or 63 depending on how generous the judge is." Well I got a 58.......but in terms of the 8 amateurs I was third, so, none of us were skating. Junior, is really a better than 6 mover except his walk.....it is a 5 at best so while the canter at times can and should receive a 7.5 the walk seems to bring us down to a 6 at best. Dressage - so addicting, so challenging and so frustrating.........................

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Re: Guess the Score

Postby Chisamba » Fri Jan 29, 2021 4:34 am

my opinion is that it should be gait score, BUT it should be purity and rhythm, NOT flashy front legs.

maybe I'm looking at the past through rose colored glasses but gaits used to mean diagonal parity , trueb3 beat canter. true 4 beat walk.

now it means high stepping with tricks.

as always just my blunt personal opinion. maybe it was always about fancy and I simply deceived myself it was about training.

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Re: Guess the Score

Postby khall » Fri Jan 29, 2021 4:50 am

No I agree with you chisamba. If you go back and look at Ahleric or Martzog they did not fling their legs about and were fairly normal moving horses. It was training.

I remember when Bretina and Debbie M were showing and they would get knocked down for not being flashy enough.

The breeding of these horses have allowed the incorrect training to flourish because they still can do the movements to their detriment

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Re: Guess the Score

Postby mari » Fri Jan 29, 2021 6:40 am

Chisamba and Khall, I so agree. It should be about quality/purity of gait, and not impressiveness of gait. Because that is just plain ridiculous and takes the focus off training, which is where it should be. Who the hell cares if it trots super pretty but can't halt/hp/whatever? Then we might as well turn the horses out in an arena without tack and chase it around a bit for the judges to score.
The aim of argument or of discussion should not be victory, but progress. ~ Joseph Joubert

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Re: Guess the Score

Postby blob » Fri Jan 29, 2021 11:06 am

When I first started ridingv dressage in the 90s my trainer at the time was doing GP on a lippizzan. He was a very correct mover and excelled in collected work, but as you can imagine not flashy or big strides or especially fancy. She consistently scored well on him. I don't think those same rides would get the same scores now.

I think it's as much a breeding trend as anything else. With so many dressage bred warmbloods with fancy movement out there, the scale/standard has shifted.

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Re: Guess the Score

Postby khall » Fri Jan 29, 2021 1:09 pm

Blob I know who your trainer is! I was showing at the time and watched her with that stallion many many times. Rode with her some back then. Is she still showing?

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Re: Guess the Score

Postby blob » Fri Jan 29, 2021 5:35 pm

khall wrote:Blob I know who your trainer is! I was showing at the time and watched her with that stallion many many times. Rode with her some back then. Is she still showing?


I leased that stallion's only offspring for a few years back in college--he was too smart for his own good :lol:

I don't ride with her anymore, actually-- I can't afford her board :lol:

But I still see her at shows. She's not showing herself any more but has a very active group of students who are showing.

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Re: Guess the Score

Postby khall » Fri Jan 29, 2021 6:11 pm

blob wrote:
khall wrote:Blob I know who your trainer is! I was showing at the time and watched her with that stallion many many times. Rode with her some back then. Is she still showing?


I leased that stallion's only offspring for a few years back in college--he was too smart for his own good :lol:

I don't ride with her anymore, actually-- I can't afford her board :lol:

But I still see her at shows. She's not showing herself any more but has a very active group of students who are showing.



I did not know he had any foals. That was one tricky stallion! I remember watching her ride him she always had that lunge line with a chain on in one hand while warming up for an FEI test because he would dump her and run off causing mayhem on the show grounds

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Re: Guess the Score

Postby khall » Fri Jan 29, 2021 6:13 pm

This is a cool little Arabian

https://youtu.be/Q_eXfeFyMYo

SF I love the Iberians but don’t consider them necessarily off breed. Would buy one in a heart beat if I could afford another. Seriously would love to breed Joplin but doubt I ever will.

Georgia grandes are an interesting cross. Some can be squirrels some pretty nice. I’m not a huge fan of Friesians mostly because of feathers (applies to the drafts too!) but I saw one in 2019 at a clinic I would have taken home in a heart beat. Full blooded Friesians are pricey. Crosses a bit better.

Whoops meant to post on off breed thread sorry for high jacking Tanga!
Last edited by khall on Fri Jan 29, 2021 6:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Guess the Score

Postby Josette » Fri Jan 29, 2021 6:26 pm

oops
Last edited by Josette on Fri Jan 29, 2021 6:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Guess the Score

Postby Ponichiwa » Fri Jan 29, 2021 6:44 pm

Tanga wrote:tlkidding--For the GP, the piaffe is supposed to be 12-15 steps ON THE SPOT. The one meter allowed forward is in the I-2. The way that is scored (look at Wellington) is a LOT of BS. You see MANY GP horses doing 5/6 steps on the spot.


You may already have read this/be familiar with this, but the FEI guidance for judging was pretty helpful for me in my split-decision-points-management for riding the GP.

https://inside.fei.org/system/files/Gui ... ements.pdf

It covers the variation of mistakes and recommended marks associated with them-- e.g. (pg 7-8) if your choice in the moment for piaffe is between allowing forward travel but keeping the balance, you may have saved yourself 1-2 points. Similarly, if you have to choose between fewer steps (1-2 pt deduction) vs. balance (max 6pts for obvious lack of balance), fewer steps may be the way to go.

Similarly passage (p8-9): you can actually improve your score by 1pt if you allow double-beating vs. allow to flatten towards trotlike (if those are your two options in the moment).

I really appreciated the transitions comments as well. Made me focus on entirely different execution in the tests. And yeah, doesn't change the I'm-a-no-name-so-I'm-not-getting-the-big-scores issue, but I also lack the ringcraft to really scoop up each available point (although I'm working on that).

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Re: Guess the Score

Postby Tanga » Fri Jan 29, 2021 8:51 pm

Nice link Ponchwa. Makes me pissed, though! Argh Look at piaffe. Clearly not enough steps-5, not quite enough, like 10/11 below 7--I was just watching Wellington again last night. Many, many, many of the top horses and riders only had 5/6 steps and were getting over 7!!! Argh! Horse breaks steps below 3--I saw 4/5 do that and get 6's!

Yeah, IF the judges judges that way, it would be much easier. They don't. And yeah, in the GP SO much of the test, about 40% is on p/p and transitions, so if you have that, you should do well.

And losing points on stupid things like a simple change made me really focus on being uphill and straight (and NOT on the rail) but that didn't help me with her. Same goes with those halts. We're all working on those little thing to get those points. I DID have them there, even though I lost it in the walk, but when you have such a bad bias, it doesn't help.

Want another tip? You can do things where they aren't scored and not get marked down. Depending on what test it is, a lot of corners and short ends have no scores, so unless you do something dramatic, you can use those areas to fix things (wake up the horse, slow them down, do a check, etc.) and not have repercussions.

And agree on the gaits. I sort of started dressage about 35 years ago with Dennis Callin who was short listed with Zorn. This is a video tape a had I put on youtube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y4cqhUtB00A&t=845s He used to get NAILED all of the time, esp. on his extended trot, because it was considered incorrect for flicking the toes. Now this is super mild. We need to get back to correct gaits and focusing on TRAINING, but like I said, I don't think it will ever happen. There is way too much money in the big movers.

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Re: Guess the Score

Postby Tanga » Mon Feb 15, 2021 5:09 am

OK, Since I'm all sharing and this invited much discussion, here are today's test. I has someone newvideo, but the GP ride didn't come out. I'm kind of bummed. It was about the same as the last show, some better, some less. Guess the score?

Here's the I-2 ride, which was better than the GP because all of the squeemies weren't happening. (I think I can ride the GP second now so we'll both be more relaxed now that I can remember the test.) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MMJUOwBUgO8 What score do you think?

And, just 'cuz I have them, Quinn's tests. Something's weird with her right now, so I was very quiet with her, and then we go in the ring and she decides she's going to piaffe and not walk, sigh. She's going to have a good rest to see if that helps.

But, here's the I-1. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ZvcBBK949c What score?

Here's the freestyle. She messed up the two tempis, so I changed the test and added them again. I couldn't do that with the threes. She's normally pretty rock solid in changes. I love my new music. This is the first time I've done this iteration. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_GivEylMfgA WHat do you think?

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Re: Guess the Score

Postby Koolkat » Mon Feb 15, 2021 6:07 pm

covid moment
Last edited by Koolkat on Tue Feb 16, 2021 6:45 pm, edited 3 times in total.


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