Ground work for bend

[blob]

I'm trying to fix a hole in my work with MM. because she moves sideways easily, is small and handy, and has always had a supple/soft neck and jaw we've been getting away with not really having true bend through the ribcage.

Of course we're addressing this under saddle. But I'd like to supplement with ground work. MM lunges and long lines well. But I'm a bit unsure about the best way to address this. For example, I could lunge her on a circle and she will likely do exactly what we've been doing and bend through neck and turn well, without giving real bend. I can long long SI or HI but again, I'll likely get angle and neck.

Is there a good way to real work this on the ground or does fixing this bad habit require my leg on her ribcage right now?

[khall]

Blob I do lots of in hand lateral work from the bridle not on long lines. This work does translate well to under saddle

[silk]

Connected Riding and Groundwork (Peggy Cummings) has some great techniques to encourage this, S-walking being front of mind.

[blob]

Blob I do lots of in hand lateral work from the bridle not on long lines. This work does translate well to under saddle

How do you ensure ribcage bend? MM can do SI/HI/HP in hand (without long lines). but it is very easy for her to keep position and angle and softness in the shoulder/neck/poll without actually givinging through the ribcage. She is an expert faker

[khall]

I start out with rotations on a circle this is one of the basic moves we start with

https://www.facebook.com/1524233224/pos ... 11424/?d=n

A little different handler positioning but same movement with the palomino

https://www.facebook.com/46452758360249 ... 93004/?d=n

For me starting this movement like here on the circle means the horse has a bit more freedom to explore the positioning we request

[Flight]

From what I've learned the ribcage doesn't bend but rotates, like a hanging basket between the thoracic sling and the pelvic girdle. Is she rotating her ribcage upwards into the bend? In hand, you can touch with the whip at the top of the ribcage asking it swing more down (I may not be explaining this well).

That first valenca is good to look at from above, because again from what I've learned through Belinda Bolsenbroek's theory lessons, it looks like the spine is rotating outwards (the withers look to go outwards) and the ribcage up on the inside of the bend. Which is opposite to what you should be trying to achieve.
Now who is right and who is wrong? Not sure

[blob]

I start out with rotations on a circle this is one of the basic moves we start with

https://www.facebook.com/1524233224/pos ... 11424/?d=n

A little different handler positioning but same movement with the palomino

https://www.facebook.com/46452758360249 ... 93004/?d=n

For me starting this movement like here on the circle means the horse has a bit more freedom to explore the positioning we request

Thanks, Khall. We do this before I get on nearly every ride! Both the bodyworker and the trainer thinks she's very stuck in the ribcage, so perhaps this is not translating well for her particularly stickiness. But I will continue with it!

[khall]

Blob do you target her elbow in this movement? You would be positioned like the palomino facing MM asking the inside elbow to shift to the outside crossing the inside front leg over the outside. Just be careful if she is a striker.

What happens when you target the elbow here is the horse has to pick the elbow up and keep it closer to the body engaging the sling and shifting the weight to the outside shoulder which should cause MM to yield in her rib cage.

[blob]

Blob do you target her elbow in this movement? You would be positioned like the palomino facing MM asking the inside elbow to shift to the outside crossing the inside front leg over the outside. Just be careful if she is a striker.

What happens when you target the elbow here is the horse has to pick the elbow up and keep it closer to the body engaging the sling and shifting the weight to the outside shoulder which should cause MM to yield in her rib cage.

Yes! This is how we do it. Shifting to the other shoulder and going sideways is very easy for her. And her shoulder and front end is very mobile. It's stickiness in the back half of her ribcage. So yielding over is very easy. Yielding over while keeping her hind end other, so her spine is actually curved, not as much. Does that make sense?

Not sure I'm explaining right...

[khall]

Have you tried rotation in renvere?

[blob]

Have you tried rotation in renvere?

I'm not sure? In the flying change course Thomas Ritter had us do TOF renverse--which is basically TOF with flexion in direction the horse is moving. Is rotation in renverse the same thing? If it's something different than I definitely haven't tried since it would be new to me!

[khall]

Yes that is rotation in renvere. Stands the horse up in their shoulders and mobilizes the hips

[khall]

Can you do HI in hand with a draw?

https://youtu.be/Oht7X6jMoQ0

[Kyra's Mom]

I have Kyra do HI in-hand via a draw. Interestingly, I learned it from a NH person with an interest in dressage and who worked with Bettina Drummond.

I like the HI work for loosening up the lumbar area...I know there isn't a great deal of motion in that area. I am not familiar with the exact biomechanics but know that doing HI in-hand gets her much more supple behind the saddle.

My fav lately that I got from Karen Rohlf is HI on a square (in-hand). It becomes very apparent when they lose that suppleness and step out with the outside hind instead of continuing to step under. I have tried it under saddle too and it is challenging but Kyra is picking it up well. It took about 3 session in-hand for her to be able to keep stepping under both directions.

Susan

[khall]

Kyra’s mom is that in her video library? I’m a member would love to watch if you know what the date of it is. When I had worked with Karen personally in the mid 2000’s she was not doing the in hand work she does now. I’m not sure when she started this work but I’m happy she is doing so now. This is the work I’ve learned from Mark initially now Cedar and also when we went to Portugal

I do the renvere rotation in a draw can do it both ways with me on the outside as well. Have not tried this on a square. I agree it is good for the lumbar area and it also helps to mobilize the hips. My WBs find this difficult Joplin finds it easy.

[Ryeissa]

I stand by the horse and hold the reins from the ground as if I was riding. I can feel the outside shoulder pop out and use the outside rein to control it. It's a fun way to see the horse from a new angle. It simplifies the aids and takes the rider out of the equation as far as being on the back and giving conflicting seat aids (sometimes- ie if the rider is falling L or R due to asymmetry) and well as see if the saddle is playing a part.
I don't have a ton of experience but it really helped my horse. I hold a crop and use it to engage the inside hind/ribcage and/or use my hands at the girth if needed.
I have also worked off a rope halter for some of it.

[Kyra's Mom]

Yes khall...it was from Feb 2017 Gymnastic exercises you can do in a stall.

I tried to video the HI exercise today but she was just not in a working mood. Quite strange but as everyone, we have had a blast of winter weather with a nice 10 inches of wet snow . The snow melting off the arena roof and water careening down onto the stall roof was rather loud and annoying and you know...I got the camera (phone) out. I tried several times but she acted like I never used a draw before. I finally got some nice half pass but she wasn't into the HI square exercise today. I thought we would try SW as we have been working on that steadily and that just turned into a stomp fest .
I finally just asked her to shift her weight back and elevate the neck (the look proud exercise ). She did that quite well and I quit on that.

I am lazy and often just use the halter. If I bridle, I use the reins in a triangle and in one hand. Hard to explain but it works well to control the front end.

Susan

[Chisamba]

From what I've learned the ribcage doesn't bend but rotates, like a hanging basket between the thoracic sling and the pelvic girdle. Is she rotating her ribcage upwards into the bend? In hand, you can touch with the whip at the top of the ribcage asking it swing more down (I may not be explaining this well).

That first valenca is good to look at from above, because again from what I've learned through Belinda Bolsenbroek's theory lessons, it looks like the spine is rotating outwards (the withers look to go outwards) and the ribcage up on the inside of the bend. Which is opposite to what you should be trying to achieve.
Now who is right and who is wrong? Not sure

ya, good old Steinbrecht et al got it so wrong. it is anatomically impossible for the horse to bend in the thoracic spine or the rib cage. it gives the illusion of bending by rotating. it can rotated up , making you feel. like you are too long in your outside stirrup, or rotate down, making you feel like you are too long in your inside stirrup.

whether under saddle or using ground work I focus on shoulders and haunches, which when carried well give the illusion of rib cage and spinal bend.

[Ryeissa]

this is a good webianr about the back and bending
https://www.horsesinsideout.com/events/ ... -higgins-1

[blob]

this is a good webianr about the back and bending
https://www.horsesinsideout.com/events/ ... -higgins-1

Thanks, Rye, I will check it otu!