Tesla's stops and spin outs

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StraightForward
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Tesla's stops and spin outs

Postby StraightForward » Sun Apr 04, 2021 3:09 pm

I thought this might be interesting to some given the amount of discussion was generated in the goals thread re: Tesla's stall-outs.

She seems to be mostly past her recent episode of stalling out, but we did have a couple stops yesterday captured on film. The problem right now is her haunches spinning out to the left. This happens when she picks up her easier left lead too, so I am working out how to get her LH more connected to the ground. Her RF is traditionally the leg that becomes fully rooted to the ground when she gets really stuck. Here she is spinning out in the same spot in the arena, which would be where I've typically asked for right lead canter, and you can see her anticipating. Switching my diagonal has helped, and I'm trying to keep her LH in with my leg back, but it's challenging. I also have just nothing in the left rein, so I know I need to work on finding that contact so she has somewhere to go for balance.

Doing a little bit of lunging in side reins is helping, but I tend to use SRs very sparingly, so I'm hoping I don't have to lean on that for too long.

This video is a little long, but you can see the spin outs and a couple stops at the 1:30, 3:16, 5:35 and 6:30, 6:53 marks. At 6:30 she nearly stalled out, so I ended up sitting the trot to drive her forward more as well. Interested to hear other's thoughts and observations.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hxt0FKZb-T4
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Re: Tesla's stops and spin outs

Postby Chisamba » Sun Apr 04, 2021 4:04 pm

from my observation, and I realize you may feel differently, she is objecting to the leg. if you ask her to do something and she doesn't mind too much, she co operates , if she doesn't want to, she stops and swings her haunches at you.

my general response to that is use less leg. I train a one touch response. zero nagging. I might teach the go " button" on the longe. a click, the whip, a word. but i want respect to that go prompt. sometime it might mean a bit of a harsh cracking of the whip. I mean. I want them to respond like they believe a predator is on their tail.

I make darn sure I have that well established on the lunge. then I transfer it to ridden by...
one touch with the leg, prompt/ swish the whip. do not ever nag. if you do not get a good enough response you are going to teach the horse to increase the the resistance .

I had a percheron x mare who was like that and once she was over it she was super, but it had, in her, nothing to do with balance. stop making excuses for her. she'd run away from a lion. don't let her back into your legs

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Re: Tesla's stops and spin outs

Postby khall » Sun Apr 04, 2021 6:38 pm

SF I know exactly what you are dealing with. I agree that Tesla is objecting to the leg like chisamba says but I also know how difficult it is to deal with in the WBs. This is where I would go back and train the go. Don’t worry about where her head is just concentrate on on light leg aid to go if she does not chase her off with quick taps either on the shoulder or top of butt but never a hard wack that just stops them. It’s a PIA to deal with. Takes consistent work. You aren’t going to out muscle her.

The other approach I might try is to counter bend her going into the corner. Use sideways asking for almost counter SI. Exaggerate the aids for sideways then straighten and go. Once these horses start in the lateral work it helps with the forward.

I know with Rip there was no way I was going to approach this head on. I had to approach this judiciously without creating more of a fight. I would not have won that. But his MO was to explode asking for more energy. He still will if I push too hard on line. They are not easy horses to get to come to the table

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Re: Tesla's stops and spin outs

Postby Ryeissa » Sun Apr 04, 2021 6:48 pm

khall wrote:SF I know exactly what you are dealing with. I agree that Tesla is objecting to the leg like chisamba says but I also know how difficult it is to deal with in the WBs. This is where I would go back and train the go. Don’t worry about where her head is just concentrate on on light leg aid to go if she does not chase her off with quick taps either on the shoulder or top of butt but never a hard wack that just stops them. It’s a PIA to deal with. Takes consistent work. You aren’t going to out muscle her.

The other approach I might try is to counter bend her going into the corner.


I think the lack of straighness could be part of the problem before 1:30 she is very coutnerbent and loading the inside shoulder too much.

I think there are a few rhythm issues before the first corner stall out. I don't think this is behind the leg based on what I'm seeing, but just an opinion. It looks more like something gets stuck in the pelvis, but I'm a professional massage therapist so I tend to think structure/function. Its a very weird reaction if it was just a reaction to the leg....

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Re: Tesla's stops and spin outs

Postby khall » Sun Apr 04, 2021 7:19 pm

Rye not for a WB. Tesla is pushing against the outside leg throwing her HQs out to do so. That is why I suggest counter bending to almost counter SI to put the outside hind back under. They push back against pressure. Why once you start with the lateral work and they learn to move away from pressure the forward gets better. Then you can use sideways to help with forward.

There would be times I would just work on forward with Rip. That would be the theme of the ride. Now my focus with Rip is energetic sideways. Using those rotations and asking for energy in the sideways.

WBs like Tesla’s and definitely Rip are so challenging. It does get better but it takes time

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Re: Tesla's stops and spin outs

Postby Chisamba » Sun Apr 04, 2021 7:32 pm

she is just pushing into pressure instead of yielding. in my opinion those moments of irregularities usually accompany jaw resistance aka bridle lame.

for the most I agree with Khall, we might have a different approach but she is pushing into the leg whenever she feels like it.

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Re: Tesla's stops and spin outs

Postby demi » Sun Apr 04, 2021 8:09 pm

I took a screen shot from the ride in a similar position to a pic of her from the young horse forum dated 7 months ago. She has changed a lot physically since then. To me that means she is still adjusting to her changing body. She’s only coming 5 and a big girl at that, so I wouldn’t expect exceptional straightness and coordination from her until she’s had enough time and work to come into herself. I think SF is basically doing very well with her and it will just take time. She has good pros to work with and they will help with the minor adjustments that need to be made.

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Re: Tesla's stops and spin outs

Postby blob » Sun Apr 04, 2021 8:32 pm

watching this video it looks like there are many strides where her left hind is not tracking under as much as her right hind. When spins out/stalls it seems like just before the left hind gets even choppier/shorter. I don't think this is related to any real physical problem. But I do think this is likely either resistance to your left leg specifically (does it feel like she leans on that side?) and/or simply from having a weaker left hind. A few steps of LY (even just the idea of LY) and then sending forward might be the ticket.

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Re: Tesla's stops and spin outs

Postby Chisamba » Sun Apr 04, 2021 9:12 pm

demi wrote: I think SF is basically doing very well with her and it will just take time. She has good pros to work with and they will help with the minor adjustments that need to be made.


Straightforward asked for input and opinions. she started the thread.

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Re: Tesla's stops and spin outs

Postby demi » Sun Apr 04, 2021 9:26 pm

Yes, Chisamba, and that’s my opinion!

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Re: Tesla's stops and spin outs

Postby heddylamar » Sun Apr 04, 2021 9:29 pm

Maia had a very similar period (it's probably partially documented in the 2013 thread). It took me a while to figure out the pattern. It turned out that when she balked — and went up — it was mostly due to some perceived blocking from me. Too much contact, any contact, too much leg, too much seat — or any combo of those — caused her to stop and start hopping about.

Once I had a handle on the cause, I went back and did some in-hand work to re-familiarize myself with Buck Brannaman's technique to disengage the hindquarters. Then, every time she balked under saddle, I disengaged the hind end for a few steps, pushed my hands forward, then gently asked her to go forward. I'd love to say it was a quick fix ... but it took a good 6-9 months before Maia finally gave up.

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Re: Tesla's stops and spin outs

Postby Chisamba » Sun Apr 04, 2021 9:34 pm

demi wrote:Yes, Chisamba, and that’s my opinion!

that we should all shut up because she is just fine? and yes I can read the response saying no one else read that into it .... why do I see it that way, because you spoke to us not straightforward, 3rd person shut down
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Re: Tesla's stops and spin outs

Postby demi » Sun Apr 04, 2021 9:38 pm

Chisamba wrote:
demi wrote:Yes, Chisamba, and that’s my opinion!

that we should all shut up because she is just fine? and yes I can read the response saying no one else read that into it ....

No, of course not. I didn’t mean that because someone else’s opinion differed from mine that it was invalid. Just different. Different opinions make for interesting discussions.

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Re: Tesla's stops and spin outs

Postby Chisamba » Sun Apr 04, 2021 9:40 pm

ok, but talking of straightforward in the third person so you were directly addressing everyone else is pretty much a shut down imho

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Re: Tesla's stops and spin outs

Postby demi » Sun Apr 04, 2021 9:50 pm

I found it interesting that the mare has changed so much physically in 7 months time. I think that it is valid reasoning to suggest that she hasn’t quite adjusted to the changes in her body, and that she may even still be changing. If that’s the case, unevenness wouldn’t be unusual.

I saw where her left hind wasn’t tracking up as much as the right, too. Especially when I slowed the vid down. I thought Blob’s idea of a few steps of LY or even the idea of LY was a good idea. That’s a gentle way of asking for her to come more with that leg. It may help her see that she can do it and build her confidence.

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Re: Tesla's stops and spin outs

Postby demi » Sun Apr 04, 2021 9:56 pm

Chisamba wrote:ok, but talking of straightforward in the third person so you were directly addressing everyone else is pretty much a shut down imho


I’m sorry that you felt shut down by that. I truly wasn’t addressing anyone in particular. I would definitely not want to shut you down! I value your opinions! I will have to think about how I can state my opinions in a better way in the future...

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Re: Tesla's stops and spin outs

Postby Ryeissa » Sun Apr 04, 2021 10:57 pm

Let's take a step back. This is a few seconds before 1:30 so there is no contact here/flexion. Shorten your reins :)
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Re: Tesla's stops and spin outs

Postby Ryeissa » Sun Apr 04, 2021 10:59 pm

Here is just after- there is no flexion or carrying of the ribcage on the curve.
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Re: Tesla's stops and spin outs

Postby Ryeissa » Sun Apr 04, 2021 11:05 pm

If this was my horse or you were my client I would get a serious look at the right stifle. She looks a little off to me. That is causing the hips swing- they swing out when the right hind is asked to push under.

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Re: Tesla's stops and spin outs

Postby Lipsmackerpony88 » Sun Apr 04, 2021 11:08 pm

Straightforward, you are such a lovely and quiet rider. I think you ride her well. I echo they I see some weakness behind. Whether it's simply a weak stifle or something more, that's hard to know off video.

I also agree that it looks like she pushes into your leg instead of yielding to it. Whether that's straight young WB attitude or weakness, I'm not sure on that.

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Re: Tesla's stops and spin outs

Postby Ryeissa » Sun Apr 04, 2021 11:14 pm

khall wrote:Rye not for a WB. Tesla is pushing against the outside leg throwing her HQs out to do so. That is why I suggest counter bending to almost counter SI to put the outside hind back under. They push back against pressure. Why once you start with the lateral work and they learn to move away from pressure the forward gets better. Then you can use sideways to help with forward.

There would be times I would just work on forward with Rip. That would be the theme of the ride. Now my focus with Rip is energetic sideways. Using those rotations and asking for energy in the sideways.

WBs like Tesla’s and definitely Rip are so challenging. It does get better but it takes time



What is not for a WB? horses are basically very similar in the evasions....

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Re: Tesla's stops and spin outs

Postby Ryeissa » Sun Apr 04, 2021 11:16 pm

StraightForward wrote:I thought this might be interesting to some given the amount of discussion was generated in the goals thread re: Tesla's stall-outs.

She seems to be mostly past her recent episode of stalling out, but we did have a couple stops yesterday captured on film. The problem right now is her haunches spinning out to the left. This happens when she picks up her easier left lead too, so I am working out how to get her LH more connected to the ground. Her RF is traditionally the leg that becomes fully rooted to the ground when she gets really stuck. Here she is spinning out in the same spot in the arena, which would be where I've typically asked for right lead canter, and you can see her anticipating. Switching my diagonal has helped, and I'm trying to keep her LH in with my leg back, but it's challenging. I also have just nothing in the left rein, so I know I need to work on finding that contact so she has somewhere to go for balance.

Doing a little bit of lunging in side reins is helping, but I tend to use SRs very sparingly, so I'm hoping I don't have to lean on that for too long.

This video is a little long, but you can see the spin outs and a couple stops at the 1:30, 3:16, 5:35 and 6:30, 6:53 marks. At 6:30 she nearly stalled out, so I ended up sitting the trot to drive her forward more as well. Interested to hear other's thoughts and observations.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hxt0FKZb-T4



Has she had any vet work done? I am very familiar with forward issues, and I just see something else, sorry.

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Re: Tesla's stops and spin outs

Postby khall » Sun Apr 04, 2021 11:22 pm

Rye this is typical of some WBs. You put a leg on and they push back. They are ponies in big bodies. Are all this way? No but to see this resistance is not unusual in certain WBs. My friend’s mare would stop but also add in ears flat to the head. Nothing is wrong with her. Nothing is wrong with Rip or Gaila. That is their answer to pressure push back.

No horses are not similar in their evasions. You have a wide range of possibilities from running through to going sideways to stopping like Tesla and Rip. Some will employ multiple evasions. Rip will from stopping to exploding to taking the rein and trying to leave.

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Re: Tesla's stops and spin outs

Postby Ryeissa » Sun Apr 04, 2021 11:35 pm

khall wrote:Rye this is typical of some WBs. You put a leg on and they push back. They are ponies in big bodies. Are all this way? No but to see this resistance is not unusual in certain WBs. My friend’s mare would stop but also add in ears flat to the head. Nothing is wrong with her. Nothing is wrong with Rip or Gaila. That is their answer to pressure push back.

No horses are not similar in their evasions. You have a wide range of possibilities from running through to going sideways to stopping like Tesla and Rip. Some will employ multiple evasions. Rip will from stopping to exploding to taking the rein and trying to leave.


Sure, if this was my horse I would start with vet work. It's great if you don't have those problems. The horse looks uneven in several areas of the film to me. But to each their own. I like to be wrong with these things.

And yes, horses all push back. All of them :)

Let's let straitforward answer, ok? its her thread. I am just curious what the background is on this horse,

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Re: Tesla's stops and spin outs

Postby khall » Sun Apr 04, 2021 11:46 pm

Rye you asked me a direct question and I answered you. No not all horses push back like WBs do. I’ve ridden a wide variety of horses over the years. WBs are different to ride. Why I enjoy Joplin as much as I do after riding WBs for so long.

SF is Tesla objecting to the spur on the left which is why she moves her hips left in that corner? That is such a Rip move. I don’t usually ride with spurs on young horses for awhile. Especially since I use spurs for lateral work. I use a dressage whip or crop

My experience with the WBs and I’ve owned them since 1989 is that with this young stage riding out is most beneficial with them. I know SF does not have that option so I wonder if riding behind another more forward horse would help. I’ve been lucky to have large fields to school my young stock in over the years.
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Re: Tesla's stops and spin outs

Postby StraightForward » Mon Apr 05, 2021 3:11 am

Ryeissa wrote:Sure, if this was my horse I would start with vet work. It's great if you don't have those problems. The horse looks uneven in several areas of the film to me. But to each their own. I like to be wrong with these things.

And yes, horses all push back. All of them :)

Let's let straitforward answer, ok? its her thread. I am just curious what the background is on this horse,


Rye, I know what you mean with the unevenness, but I honestly think it is due to energy blockages in her body and not being fully forward so there is a sort of hesitation. She doesn't have much background - I've owned her since she was 2.5, she had a coffin joint OCD removed spring of her 3 year old year and had multiple follow-up lameness exams afterwards, and the surgeon, who is one of the better local lameness vets as well, was very happy with how she was going. Stifle and hock radiographs were perfect when I got her, no known injuries. She did have a reaction to shots spring of her 3 year old year, and I think there has been some residual tightness or something in her neck (or maybe the shot reaction wasn't the source, but I've been slowly working on her ability to bend and produce right flexion). When I started cantering her to the right more on the lunge, she would sort of snake and shake her neck out, but that has been decreasing each lunging session. She gets bodywork about monthly and I have been using SureFoot pads with her a few times a week.

Unfortunately my SoloShot went on strike today so I didn't get any video, but I lunged her and got her energy up and then put her in side reins and she went really, really well. She cantered both with and without the SRs, though she did swap hinds a couple times going right, eventually figured out a way to change herself back to pure canter and was nicely forward in trot both directions.

Leg yield - I think this problem partially originated out of teaching her LY in the walk because she was falling in really badly to the right. It worked for a bit, then she started over-achieving on the LY and turned it into spinning out on the circle. Of course if I get better control over her right shoulder, then I can keep the shoulders leading. When I'm able to get ahead of the issue I can use a weight aid and ride the feeling of a little haunches in and keep the haunches, but of course I don't catch it every time.
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Re: Tesla's stops and spin outs

Postby StraightForward » Mon Apr 05, 2021 3:22 am

heddylamar wrote:Maia had a very similar period (it's probably partially documented in the 2013 thread). It took me a while to figure out the pattern. It turned out that when she balked — and went up — it was mostly due to some perceived blocking from me. Too much contact, any contact, too much leg, too much seat — or any combo of those — caused her to stop and start hopping about.


Yeah, the struggle is real. :lol: Hence my barely there contact trying to maintain the steering while not blocking her, but also providing some balancing aids without creating a block. Even trotting between the fence and a standard 8' away created a block for her the other day.

Fingers crossed that the side reins continue to help.
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Re: Tesla's stops and spin outs

Postby StraightForward » Mon Apr 05, 2021 3:36 am

Chisamba wrote:I make darn sure I have that well established on the lunge. then I transfer it to ridden by...
one touch with the leg, prompt/ swish the whip. do not ever nag. if you do not get a good enough response you are going to teach the horse to increase the the resistance .

I had a percheron x mare who was like that and once she was over it she was super, but it had, in her, nothing to do with balance. stop making excuses for her. she'd run away from a lion. don't let her back into your legs


I think you are correct that I've been babying her too much. I had to double lunge this winter to be able to lunge her at all and used a driving whip because I'm not adept enough to not tangle the lash in the lines, but now she is lunging of a single line, so I can wield a regular whip with a lash again. Today she was more forward from the whip and didn't double barrel kick at it as she usually does. I think she might kick a lion too. I can beat her silly with the riding whip and she will not go if she is already stalled out. A bump in the mouth is actually a more effective aversive for her. Not my favorite correction, but sometimes we do what we have to do. I have had some battles with her on the lunge where she double-barrels several times and gotten a few lashes on the arse, and she just trots off with a totally serene look on her face like nothing happened.

I fully admit that I was hesitant to really ride her forward early on, especially with the canter since it's so different from what I'm used to, coupled with thinking that maybe she didn't understand what was wanted. But I'm feeling quite a bit braver now that she has more rides under her girth, so I'm ready to push more than previous. I had a lesson on A today and talked to my instructor a little about Tesla and she agreed that it's time to get a little tougher on her. She'll be back in three weeks, so I'll definitely do a lesson with Tesla whether we have improvement or continued issues.
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Re: Tesla's stops and spin outs

Postby StraightForward » Mon Apr 05, 2021 3:45 am

khall wrote:Rye not for a WB. Tesla is pushing against the outside leg throwing her HQs out to do so. That is why I suggest counter bending to almost counter SI to put the outside hind back under. They push back against pressure. Why once you start with the lateral work and they learn to move away from pressure the forward gets better. Then you can use sideways to help with forward.

There would be times I would just work on forward with Rip. That would be the theme of the ride. Now my focus with Rip is energetic sideways. Using those rotations and asking for energy in the sideways.

WBs like Tesla’s and definitely Rip are so challenging. It does get better but it takes time


Yes, I think arresting the spin with counter bending would be helpful; something I should know, but don't do reflexively enough in the moment. What is interesting is how mental this seems to be for her. This ride she spun out in the exact same spot each time. The other day it was up at the middle of the short end. Another day it was just past the middle if we tried to trot left across the arena. That is another reason why I feel pretty confident that it's not physical issues (other than weakness and normal crookedness). If I can turn her early enough, or ride more of a diamond than an oval, she tends to do better.
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Re: Tesla's stops and spin outs

Postby Chisamba » Mon Apr 05, 2021 11:54 am

I'm going to quote here

"The horse on the legs responds instantly and generously to the aids from the legs. Since all information to the horse starts from the rider's lower leg, the leg aid is most important, and the young horse should comprehend the meaning of those aids as soon as possible "

..... " in the daily handling of the youngster teach it to respond to touch or light pressure from the fingers about 3 hands behind the elbow. when the young horse is tied in the stable we can make it yield to one or other side.

on the lunge line we use the whip to teach the horse to move forward. "

" a forced use of kicking in the ribs, is no aid, .."
" a tap with the whip just behind the calf will remind the horse to.listen to the leg. The tap must come instantly and with appropriate strength so the horse is impressed".


it just so happens I agree with all this. A five year old horse is not a baby you should be cradling. my horses are moving sideways off finger pressure and forward off the whip from when they are halter trained.

as for canter, you give the horse permission to canter. it should be so alive to the leg, you reward it with the canter. if you cannot, go back to the basic GENEROUS response to the leg.

in my opinion, you use more leg on a hyper horse that is always in a rush, and less leg on the unmotivated one.

get off , put her on the ground or lunge, get instant generous response to hand , quiet voice and whip. instant. generous.

get on, INSIST on instant generous response to light aids.

now honestly, if she could gallop away from a predator, she can gallop away from your leg.

yes you do need to pay attention to health, strength and soundness. but it's pretty simple. if she could gallop away from a lion, she could gallop away from your leg.

you will know much better what and where her weakness is, and be able to supply exercise related health benefits better, if she is on the leg aid.

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Re: Tesla's stops and spin outs

Postby Aleuronx » Mon Apr 05, 2021 12:09 pm

SF I watched this last night and have been pondering.

To me it's interesting to see the difference in you both when you go to the left, even as you go across the diagonal to change to that direction. Tesla is a lot more even behind, moving freely forward and your contact to the bit is better. I wonder (and this is my crazy mind so grain of salt it) if you try riding her left going right and right going left. Use that left positioning on the trickier side to get the forward, good going trot and then build on the right bend/positioning when going to the left which is easier for her.

WB's/baby horses in general are so tough!! My trainer always instilled that baby horses go forward first, no matter what. You're actually safer going forward then not, although it can be a brain freeze for the human on a wobbly wiggly baby horse. If Tesla was my horse I'd play with this on the ground, have her stand then touch (not whack or tap) with the whip where it would on the riding position and use vocal 'walk' command. She gets it right, treat. Repeat until you're blue in the face and bored out of your mind BUT she moves from halt to walk with just the touch of the whip. Then move onto trot same thing, in the walk touch with whip and use trot voice command, etc.

Teach her that going forward to the aid is the right thing and always rewarded. Transfer to under saddle but start back at the beginning, halt-walk and treat. I think you'll be surprised how quickly she'll pick it up, mares.

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Re: Tesla's stops and spin outs

Postby Lipsmackerpony88 » Mon Apr 05, 2021 4:32 pm

Lots of good ideas here and SF, I think your plan is solid. Young horses can be tough!! You are doing a good job, this stuff is tricky to figure out sometimes.

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Re: Tesla's stops and spin outs

Postby tlkidding » Mon Apr 05, 2021 4:50 pm

SF, is she doing it near the arena gate? You do say she does it anywhere in the arena, but is it usually when she's turning away from the gate or getting further from friends?

My coming 4 year old WB does something very similar and he's not a naturally forward thinking horse. When he hits his pressure threshold, his move is to stop turning right/circling and head for the door/gate/other horses with his left shoulder. He can go sideways really well! He did it to me yesterday at the end of our ride at the canter and although we worked through it at the trot, I don't feel like I won the battle and could not fix it at the canter. His personality is if he starts, I have to give him some release right away and find a small success to reward him and get him thinking happy thoughts right away. Otherwise, he really gets stuck on that evasion and his feet stop moving when he wants to throw the shoulder out.

I sure could do a lot, lot better reading his pressure threshold moments before this and reacting with better aids! If you come up with anything that works well for Tesla, let me know. I'm going try the counter bend, but he's still so green it might not work well. I also recognize I need to double lunge him again because that's where the issue first showed up and we never 100% solved it.

Good luck!

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Re: Tesla's stops and spin outs

Postby StraightForward » Mon Apr 05, 2021 5:14 pm

tlkidding wrote:SF, is she doing it near the arena gate? You do say she does it anywhere in the arena, but is it usually when she's turning away from the gate or getting further from friends?


No, she is not herd bound at all. I've even tried to get her to follow other horses that are trotting or cantering in the arena as motivation and she does not care. If there is a horse in an atypical spot like up on the canal bank above the arena, she gets a little excited, but distractions like that are actually helpful because I have more energy to work with and she tends to go with the flow more. This there is some slope to this arena, I was typically asking for the right lead coming around that corner to the long side, which is where she started spinning her haunches out, so it is definitely related to anticipation/preemptive blocking of what she thinks I'm going to ask for.

I am right there with you on finding the line between rewarding a small try and being more demanding! She is ultra green as well, I don't think the counter bending is anything that needs to wait, unless your horse is so unbalanced that he might fall over. My lesson on my other horse last night also reminded me that it's useful to take that empty rein even if it makes things go wonky for a bit. I know part of my problem with T is that I have absolutely no feel on the bit on the left, and I've been too shy about taking up that contact, and instead trying to push her over into it from the inside leg.
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Re: Tesla's stops and spin outs

Postby StraightForward » Mon Apr 05, 2021 5:20 pm

Aleuronx wrote:SF I watched this last night and have been pondering.

To me it's interesting to see the difference in you both when you go to the left, even as you go across the diagonal to change to that direction. Tesla is a lot more even behind, moving freely forward and your contact to the bit is better. I wonder (and this is my crazy mind so grain of salt it) if you try riding her left going right and right going left. Use that left positioning on the trickier side to get the forward, good going trot and then build on the right bend/positioning when going to the left which is easier for her.


Thanks, that is a good idea! I know my torso doesn't rotate to the right as readily as to the left, and it's something I've been working on. I'm probably stiffening up more trying to pre-empt the problems I expect to crop up going to the right, while on the left I am more confident that she won't stop/fall in/lose the haunches or whatever. Yeah, I think she is far enough along now that I could try a little counter bending trotting left, that would help her with taking weight onto that left shoulder and get the left hind carrying better.
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Re: Tesla's stops and spin outs

Postby Ponichiwa » Mon Apr 05, 2021 6:05 pm

Chisamba wrote:from my observation, and I realize you may feel differently, she is objecting to the leg. if you ask her to do something and she doesn't mind too much, she co operates , if she doesn't want to, she stops and swings her haunches at you.


Agree with Chisamba. She's objecting to the leg and she's a bit behind it (even before the haunches start to swing or she gets a bit arhythmic behind), so that when you do put your leg on her energy can go sideways or up instead of under and through. Horses like this do convince you to keep on more leg than they may need, too, as we beg and plead for them to keep going. Take the leg off and only use it when you mean it (i.e. not just progressively-more-leg-on-when-she-sucks-back, but one big reminder that she's got to keep cruising and then return to neutral).

If you have a large enough arena, riding the turns off of the wall will let you turn into the haunches as they drift out. Basically, ride a 20x60m but be prepared to do 15-20m circles to the outside if you've got space whenever the haunches fall out. Or, if your arena isn't that large, try to get a 20m circle near the point where she gets sticky and execute the 15-20m change of direction in that spot.

That said, I don't think she needs big long laps of the arena right now. I'd recommend something like a serpentine (bonus points: serpentine with counter flexion or counter bend) up and down the arena until she supples into the bridle and lets you use your leg without her getting fussy about it. And then "good girl!" and give her a bit of a break so she doesn't feel like her effort is wasted.

Worked wonders for my mare when she got a bit stuck feeling and would slam on the brakes out of nowhere. That, and praise when she got it right. Her frustration limit was pretty low, so anything I could do to lift that up made our rides go that much smoother.

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Re: Tesla's stops and spin outs

Postby Kirby's Keeper » Mon Apr 05, 2021 6:18 pm

I'm going to look at this from a different angle. When I looked at the video I saw that SF sits slightly to the left side of the saddle and that she carries her left shoulder slightly lower than her right shoulder. That rider position would naturally put Tesla in a counterbend while on the right rein. Your hands and legs are asking one thing but your seat is asking the opposite.

I would be very conscious of pulling my right hip back while pushing my left hip forward and aligning my shoulders with the hips to create the correct bend through the horse's body. I would also want to even out my shoulders by lengthening the space between my left hip and left armpit by doing backward arm circles (the backstroke) with your left arm while riding at a walk.

Sometimes it is the little asymmetries in our body that show up as resistance in our horse's body. This is especially true of some overachieving young horses who get easily irritated if the aids are not black/white.

As an aside, how does she react to a turn on the forehand in walk?
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Re: Tesla's stops and spin outs

Postby heddylamar » Mon Apr 05, 2021 6:19 pm

StraightForward wrote:I think arresting the spin with counter bending would be helpful; something I should know, but don't do reflexively enough in the moment.


I walk myself through things like this at the walk, or on another horse (sorry, Anzia :lol) until it becomes automatic. With Anzia, and now Maia, I don't have time in the moment to think ... they're just too freaking quick and strong.

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Re: Tesla's stops and spin outs

Postby Tanga » Tue Apr 06, 2021 2:48 am

Oooh. This looks familiar. I had that horse! Not the same thing, but I recognize it. I got the girls' mom greenbroke and super energetic. I went through a long period of stopping, and pushing through it got a lot of drama and such, to the point of running herself into walls. She had a lot of energy, but little strength, so she reacted to not being able to do something or it being hard by stopping in some version. Pushing through it was a bad idea.

I refocused on strengthening and conditioning her. When she got truly strong, it all stopped. Quilla has done variations of the stop when she was pushed too hard and not feeling she could do it or understand it.

He seems to be doing it in the same spot every time, which indicates it's habit, too. You have lots of suggestions. Mine is rethink how to get him stronger. Mine are ponied and on hills as babies, backed and ridden lightly at 4, and 5 is just starting to do work, so a 5 year old to me doesn't have much actual strength. Maybe more walk work in doing various lateral work as well as lunging to get him stronger in being able to do that without you on top.

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Re: Tesla's stops and spin outs

Postby StraightForward » Tue Apr 06, 2021 4:26 am

Kirby's Keeper wrote:I'm going to look at this from a different angle. When I looked at the video I saw that SF sits slightly to the left side of the saddle and that she carries her left shoulder slightly lower than her right shoulder. That rider position would naturally put Tesla in a counterbend while on the right rein. Your hands and legs are asking one thing but your seat is asking the opposite.

I would be very conscious of pulling my right hip back while pushing my left hip forward and aligning my shoulders with the hips to create the correct bend through the horse's body. I would also want to even out my shoulders by lengthening the space between my left hip and left armpit by doing backward arm circles (the backstroke) with your left arm while riding at a walk.


This is something I've been working on. My torso does not like to rotate to the right. It's gotten a lot better, but of course those position changes tend to go to pot when things start going sideways. I actually have been doing Feldenkrais and have pinpointed the issue to my right back ribcage being too open so it is more rounded and then my left front rib collapses. So if I close my right ribs, my left front ribs open up and support my left side better. It's likely that the collapsing was happening more as I tried to keep my left leg back to help contain the hind legs. I practiced rotating right while my left leg was back on my run tonight. I'll try to capture that feeling next time I ride.

I have not really introduced TOF under saddle yet. She can easily TOF and full pass both ways in hand.
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Re: Tesla's stops and spin outs

Postby StraightForward » Tue Apr 06, 2021 4:37 am

Tanga wrote:Maybe more walk work in doing various lateral work as well as lunging to get him stronger in being able to do that without you on top.


Yeah, walk lateral work was where I went this winter when this was REALLY bad and we were stuck in the tiny indoor arena, and she was better afterwards learning the idea of LY and baby SI. I definitely keep the rides short and sweet whenever possible. My plan is to focus on lunging for a week or two with a few minutes in the side reins as that really seemed to give her a lightbulb moment that she can go forward and even canter without spinning out.
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Re: Tesla's stops and spin outs

Postby Kirby's Keeper » Tue Apr 06, 2021 6:49 pm

SF re your position actually shift your hips in the saddle right back and left forward as opposed to twisting through your ribs. It is going to really feel awkward but it will make it easier for Tesla to maintain a right bend through her body.

Give the mounted TOF a try but do it as a walking TOF in motion so that her front legs move on a small circle as opposed to pivoting around one front leg. Do it off the rail so that as soon as she begins to get stuck you can immediately move her off in walk to re-establish forward.
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Re: Tesla's stops and spin outs

Postby khall » Tue Apr 06, 2021 8:53 pm

That moving TOF is excellent for these big bodied WBs to help increase their suppleness. Rip is built like Tesla wide with huge muscles and was not the most supple of horses laterally. I’ve used this movement (Anja Beran calls it sidestepping) to help increase his flexibility in those large HQs especially in his right hind which is his weaker hind leg. We do these rotations every time I work him in hand. Also under saddle. Doing these rotations in trot helps develop piaffe.

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Re: Tesla's stops and spin outs

Postby StraightForward » Tue Apr 06, 2021 9:04 pm

Kirby, if I am reading right you disagree with this?:

https://dressagetoday.com/instruction/h ... nd-balance

Control over the rider’s own weight while keeping her legs softly by the horse’s side is a must. She has to be aware of her leg position, with the inside leg supportive by the girth and the outside leg slightly behind the girth to control the rib cage on the outside. The rider’s shoulders have to stay parallel to the horse’s shoulders and the hips parallel to the horse’s hips. To keep her weight in the right direction the rider has to turn from her core to initiate the line of travel for the horse on a bending line or lateral work.


I somewhat disagree that the rider's hips should be parallel with the horse's hips because that puts the pelvis crooked in the saddle, but I do think the outside leg should be a bit back to guard the outside hind.
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Re: Tesla's stops and spin outs

Postby Chisamba » Wed Apr 07, 2021 3:52 pm

if there is a possibility that your horse is stalling because it's tired or unfit, then you still get respect for the aids, but you ride shorter periods of time.

yes if a horse pushes into the leg I find a moving TOF useful.

I will say one thing though. 99.9 % of the time you get the horse that you deserve. we train them to be who they are. if your horse does something, you have to be prepared for a little self examination to solve it.
Last edited by Chisamba on Wed Apr 07, 2021 3:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Tesla's stops and spin outs

Postby Kirby's Keeper » Wed Apr 07, 2021 3:56 pm

I agree with that quote SF. What I think is happening is that in putting your left leg back to guard against Tesla swinging her butt left, you aren't just moving your left leg from the hip but you are moving the whole hip back and overbalancing on the left side of the saddle. We all have some pelvic asymmetry. As a Bowen Therapist I have become more aware of these issues and how they influence how we ride. The students I teach are all older adult amateurs. Asking them to rotate their upper body from the waist to ride a bended line wasn't getting the result. When I got them to realign their pelvis they immediately got results. It only takes an adjustment of 1/2 inch or less with each hip to make a huge difference.
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Re: Tesla's stops and spin outs

Postby Ryeissa » Wed Apr 07, 2021 8:11 pm

I would try LY - you need to connect the horse to the outside rein before anything else. TOF isn't going to help that inside to outside connection. That teaches the horse to move off the leg, but doesn't really have much value in this case based on my experience.

I think you are dropping the contact and the horse is very crooked- per the pics above.

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Re: Tesla's stops and spin outs

Postby Flight » Wed Apr 07, 2021 9:27 pm

Is it just mares that do this? Tesla is about the 5th horse I've heard of that does the big stops and they've all been mares.

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Re: Tesla's stops and spin outs

Postby Sue B » Wed Apr 07, 2021 10:12 pm

Flight, no, my gelding Tio does it too. I blame it on him being a warm blood.

SF, Tesla's behavior is strikingly similar to Tio, although he used to be far more dramatic about it. Now the drama only occurs a couple times a year instead of a couple times a week. At any rate, one thing I noticed with her and him, is that it's more frequent in one direction and often occurs in the same place (or near to) in the arena. Like Tesla, he will also dump down on the forehand as a precursor to "stalling out." I noticed that in my case, I needed to do a better job of rotating my torso as we travelled through whatever corner or part of the circle the stall outs were occurring. From videoing, I can tell you that what felt like a large rotation on my part was merely matching my shoulders to the arch of the curve. The best result came when I made sure to turn my whole torso (not just shoulders) and if I did it a few strides before the problem area. It is also important for ME to keep my eyes up and looking ahead to where I wish to be. For some reason, I tend to drop my eyes (or even my head) and stare at his neck when I am having trouble going freely foreword. Btw, I think that turning the whole torso, in my case, keeps my hips from torqueing off into the wrong direction.

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Re: Tesla's stops and spin outs

Postby khall » Wed Apr 07, 2021 10:30 pm

Nope just certain WBs in my experience Flight. Rip has been known to do this big F off too. The feeling I get riding my WBs (btw they have old style blood in them) is that it feels like they are stick to the ground and it’s difficult for them to be lively. Like riding with the foot on the brake. I do find the WB crosses with more blood in them tend to ride lighter and freer. Joplin’s dam was Han/TB cross. She was very light on her feet and movey. Rip and Gaila’s dam is half TB while she had a bit of this nope attitude it was fairly easy to get through. Rip has been challenging because when you ask for energy he would explode. Leaping into the air like a horse doing airs.

SueB and I commiserated a good bit between Tio and Rip. So I know and SueB knows what SF is going through. And no the stopping is not because she’s not training her correctly and causing it. That stopping is in their brains. I find it to be as much mental braking as it is physical stopping. It’s a challenge and one I’m glad I am not going through with Joplin who has a motor to her. Even the big TB/perch has a better motor to her than Rip and Gaila. I have to manufacture the energy with them. Training helps. Being consistent in your light requests and escalate if needed then back to light request. Lateral work helps. A conundrum with Rio though is you get that energy up and he can get spooky about things then.

It’s quite frankly though why I’m done with WBs. I prefer to ride a horse that is innately more movey and light of foot. Has a motor


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