Basic Yielding to the Leg

[piedmontfields]

The thread on Tesla made me think about this basic exercise. I tend to do it on learning horses or any horse that is not responding to my aids with an adequate "step under my weight" response. Instead of a strict square, you can do a rounded square and just ask for 1-2 steps of step under.

Here is a video version: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZXHOE3lB4A

The basic version is done in walk. I still use it as part of warm-up all the time. You can do degrees of it in trot and canter, too, for more advanced work.

Here is a related article talking about this approach to building "yield" in the horse, with a turn on the forehand transition:
https://www.chronofhorse.com/article/wh ... se-jj-tate

[khall]

Yes I do this but more on a 10 m circle I do this bit US and in hand

https://fb.watch/5zSqWXKrGi/

I also switch flexion and bend so that you are doing a rotation in renvere. Also switch to shoulders going around hips rotation both in counter and true bend. True bend = toh

I start every ride with these rotations

[StraightForward]

Yes I do this but more on a 10 m circle I do this bit US and in hand

https://fb.watch/5zSqWXKrGi/

I also switch flexion and bend so that you are doing a rotation in renvere. Also switch to shoulders going around hips rotation both in counter and true bend. True bend = toh

I start every ride with these rotations

Yeah, I think when I can get closer to this in walk with Tesla it will make a big difference. Since she swings her haunches out left so much, I have not used much TOF off the right leg. TOF of the left leg is useful, but then we have to somehow transfer that into riding to the right and still keeping the LH supporting. Yesterday I walked her up the long side in a bit of SI left, and then got on and rode some small zig zags up the rail to the right. That gave a chance to push the shoulders left out to the wall and get them ahead of the haunches so to speak. Then we try to turn a little early and LY back to the wall with the shoulders leading.

I think that for her, this could be useful ridden to the left as a square at the walk, followed by one circle of trot to the right.

With A, getting the left lead canter depart straighter, we worked on some LY on a circle to the left and then straighten and canter. Using LY instead of SI on the circle made it easier to get a more pronounced crossing of the hind legs so she couldn't get as stuck or find ways to bulge her right shoulder.

[khall]

SF what I would be doing with Tesla is counter turns bending right. That grounds and compresses the LH a bit while getting her off the right fore.

[StraightForward]

Yes, that is what the zigzags were the beginning of - Go right off the rail and then move the shoulders left to return to the rail.

[Sue B]

Used to do that with Rudy, now I do TOH squares instead.

[Chisamba]

I cannot remember if it was Seuning or Steinbrecht who originally described the way i use this exercise. I certainly focus on timing of the aid and "bend" far more than the original video posted here. I also found it kind of obscure having to try look in the mirror for the in hand exercise posted. ( a little less artsy fartsy and a bit of clear demonstration would be nice) I sound grumpy don't I.

in the yielding to the leg on the square or on the circle, it's super easy to get a sideways step, shortening the stride, changing the walk rhythm, and less easy to get a more useful step under the midline.

I think khall showed better bend and step but it was hard to say because I found the mirrored version difficult to see.

anyway. a slightly opening inside rein, timing the inside leg to outside rein as the inside hind lifts and swings forward and maintaining the same walk rhythm and tempo are keys to not turning this exercise into fishtail. as always jmho

[khall]

Chisamba the Valenca’s have a couple of videos of this work from above the arena so you can see the pattern and bend clearly. One of the focus when I do this exercise is to have the engaging leg step forward and sideways. They actually go past midline in the steeper rotation. You can also use this exercise to diagnolize the walk. I find it to be one of the best hip suppling exercises

[Ryeissa]

ok, maybe I'm dumb here but in the JJ Tate video the horse is pretty straight. Wouldn't you want bend to encourage the inside/outside shaping/alignment?

Nice exercise though- thanks for sharing! Always looking for tools.

For baby horses I've been taught to use TOF to get leg response, or spiral in/out. This is a nice addition to the toolbox!

[khall]

Rye you do both. The straighter is for more towards collection and piaffe type work the bend is more towards SI type work or renvere if you rotate into the bend.

Cedar was saying last clinic with more collection there is less bend the horse is more vertical. Shorter in the base

[Ryeissa]

Rye you do both. The straighter is for more towards collection and piaffe type work the bend is more towards SI type work or renvere if you rotate into the bend.

Cedar was saying last clinic with more collection there is less bend the horse is more vertical. Shorter in the base

in the first video the horse is very straight- I'm commenting on that 1 min only....

I'm not following your thought, I guess in my POV I think of capturing the horse both lat/long in collected/extension. It's all variation of the same things- can the horse elongate? elevate? move sidways? My horse is very wiggle and squisky so I have to contain all the parts all the time.

Isn't a horse bent just as much in collection- ie- half pass? lateral bend. Or are you talking about height of the steps? Doesn't SI encourage collection?

I also use lateral work regularly to fix asymmetry which make the horse "straight" (ie- aligned poll/withers/stifle/hocks)

[Ryeissa]

I was going to say SQUISHY, not Squisky, but I happen to think that made me laugh. So I leave it in.

[khall]

Yes that straightness works toward collected. It encourages the engagement of the sling SI while helps with straightening is not as beneficial for elevating the sling. It encourages the horse to weight more the outside shoulder instead of elevating both shoulders. Try riding SI to renvere and feel the difference in how engaged the horse is in renvere compared to SI.

So on a bigger circle I would use more SI with the smaller circles I will have the horse straighter in his body. Control that outside shoulder with the outside rein.

[Ryeissa]

Yes that straightness works toward collected. It encourages the engagement of the sling SI while helps with straightening is not as beneficial for elevating the sling. It encourages the horse to weight more the outside shoulder instead of elevating both shoulders. Try riding SI to renvere and feel the difference in how engaged the horse is in renvere compared to SI.

So on a bigger circle I would use more SI with the smaller circles I will have the horse straighter in his body. Control that outside shoulder with the outside rein.

yes, but in the first video the horse is not in shoulder in or shoulder fore. Its dead straight and is stepping around more than under (more or less)- the haunches are the axis....Just like TOF has limited use in dressage..... there is not really a connection aspect to this, not that is un-usable, just not the same as the inside leg to outside rein idea (such as spiral in).

It teaches them about the leg, sure, and there is a reason to do that. we should be able to move the body in a variety of ways. It seems this is more like the TOF where it has an application, but we can then move to more sophisticated ideas.

Yes, I am showing second with scores 67-68% and working third. I know how to do a SI and renvers LOL

[khall]

Well I’m not a huge JJ Tate fan look at this video. It shows what I am describing and here the horse is straigter

https://youtu.be/OhJWvKtzfTY

This work is not about SI or HI but about mobilization of the hips and teaching the horse it’s not always about forward

[Ryeissa]

Well I’m not a huge JJ Tate fan look at this video. It shows what I am describing and here the horse is straigter

https://youtu.be/OhJWvKtzfTY

This work is not about SI or HI but about mobilization of the hips and teaching the horse it’s not always about forward

Right, It isn't about SI and that is why I question the overall benefit.

However, this bay horse is sculpted around the inside aids and in a double bridle. Not really the same as the green horse. The green horse is walking a straight line, the bay is doing more turn on the forehand (which seems to have more benefit?)

What do you mean "straighter"? they are both straight as far as one is on a straight line, one is on a curved line. Relative to each exercise the hips/shoulders/withers/poll are "in line" (more or less)

Who is talking about forward? I don't think I brought that up?

Anyone else have thoughts?

[khall]

Rye it’s the same concept just one is on a circle which is how I usually do this exercise and one is incorporating straight lines in between the turns.

The benefit is that it teaches the horse to mobilize the haunches without going forward. Mark called this advance the haunch. AB calls it stepping over.

So usually lateral work is done going forward whether on a straight line or curved line the horse still goes forward. In this rotation the horse has to move but not go forward. JJ does incorporate forward on straight lines with this mobilization. AB does not. In fact she will also trot in this position ( the German handbook uses this to teach piaffe) to prepare the horse for piaffe. Why? Because the horse has to take shorter rom steps and engage the sling lifting up in order to do this work.

If it does not resonate with you then don’t do it. But I’ve found it to be very helpful in working my horses. I used it years ago to teach my first horse I bred and raised piaffe following the German handbook so was familiar with the concept before being exposed to it through AB and the Valenca’s. Mark did more of a SI on the circle than this movement. Though he did show me a full pass as in the horse moves fully sideways in a straight line. Still same concept of horse moving but not going forward

One more point I want to make is there is no bend in piaffe and in passage only a tiny bit if doing piaffe HP and straight biomechanically in one time changes.

[blob]

I don't mind the first video. yes the horse is very straight. But I do think it serves the exact purpose of the title of the thread--it teaches the horse basic yielding to the leg, which is an important. And while we could say this straight yielding is limited, it's also true (i think) that nearly ever exercise is limited in the sense that most exercises are created to serve a specific purpose. I recently did one of Thomas Ritter's courses and he had us do full pass and TOF in addition to SI to HI or SI to renvers. And it was not seen as one was a more sophisticated version of the other, but rather they were focused on gymnasticizing different aspects or isolating/sharpening different aids.

[Chisamba]

I would be very interested in the value and purpose to supple any part of the body especially the inside hind leg, to unbalance and exclude the back and add weight to the forehand I can understand the usefulness in teaching a greener horse. but the point of making the hip supple is to lower the hips and bring the balance more to the center of the horse. the strength and supple is required in longitudinal plane . the more laterally supple the hips, the less carriage and the more weight on the fore hand. I guess if you want your horse to learn to do a hand stand, go for it.

this is why the straight leg yield is the most worthless exercise known to riding. it biomechanucally loads the front end, in contrast yielding to the leg on a circle, on a corner or with flexion or counter flexion all have value .

but straight leg yield is an enemy to collection and will bite you when you try to go from 2nd to 3rd and 4th ifb you do to much of it early. it actually teaches the horse how to evade lowering the hips and reinforces use its legs without using its back or abdomen.

I see so many leg moving horses doing leg yield with bent necks in second level and 3rd level that are supposed to be SI and HP. my.opinion it is the single most detrimental exercise in creating supple horses that never progress to third level.

I actually don't care if you believe me or not. but any horse that I have ridden that yields to the leg too straight or TOF too straight are very difficult to do good shoulder in, half pass and especially straight flying change. they find it very easy to move side ways without stepping under and it even affects the medium gaits. the lateral work no longer helps the horse load the hind end so medium gaits are rushed and flat.

I personally have limited a couple of fine horses by losing sight of the goal of supple joints to create balance, not to create to use Ryes term, squishy

[khall]

Well chisamba AB uses this exercise and does all the higher level work. Have you read the German handbook of riding? This is exactly how they teach piaffe. These rotations on the circle asking for trot. The Valenca’s use this exercise all the time. It’s one of their cornerstones. Yet they train horses to GP and above ( they train the airs as well) with no issues.

This is not about LYs but about teaching the horse to change their rom with the 4 legs and to diagnolize them

If it does not work for you don’t do it. I’ll go with what I’ve seen and learned. Btw Joplin and Gaila do this movement pretty much every time I work them. They both have lovely green medium trots and incredible lateral work at the trot. Joplin especially is just powerful.

Put your horse in this rotation and ask for the trot see what happens. They have to engage and lift in the front. They do not put more weight on the front end.

https://www.amazon.com/Principles-Ridin ... 0668063939

Look at the cover illustration. This is the book I first learned of this exercise from years ago

[Chisamba]

in the video you posted Khall, the horse is NOT straight, it is very nicely curved . if by your definition that horse is straight then our definitions differ. I said, if I may be arrogant enough to quote myself,

" in contrast yielding to the leg on a circle, on a corner or with flexion or counter flexion all have value ."

if you are going to argue with me at least argue with what I said.

also in my opinion the horse in the video you showed is turning more about the center, not on the the forehand. the horse is CLEARLY circling. which I already said has value.

I'm not even critiquing your input. I dislike the first video where the timing is so bad she almost pushes one hind leg into the other resulting in the horse uncomfortable prematurely lifting the outside hind, pushing into the ground in front and leaving its high quarters strung or behind. poor horse.

[Chisamba]

also SI only encourages weighting the outside shoulder if the horse goes through the outside rein instead of to the outside rein. the SI correctly used lightens the outside shoulder because it shortens the distance between inside hind and outside front in an uphill manner. if you find it weights the outside shoulder you are doing a leg yield in SI position which was one of my points on the danger of leg yield.

[Chisamba]

I apologize for wasting your time on this. it's the middle of the night, so I can't just go ride and do, so I end up taking about it lol

[Chisamba]

Rye it’s the same concept just one is on a circle which is how I usually do this exercise and one is incorporating straight lines in between the turns. .

you do not see a difference between how the rider of the bay horse is riding the exercise and how the chestnut horse is being ridden conceptually ? its not about the straight lines between the exercise, its about how the exercise itself is being ridden.

to be plain, I do not like the execution of the exercise as demonstrated in the first video. I did not offer a single comment ( except finding the mirror imaging obscured the exercise) about any other video. My comments are specific to the execution of the exercise in the first video. and in repost to Blob not having a problem with it.

as for " Thomas Ritter" does full pass. does he recommend smacking the hind kegs into each other? even full pass has some forward and more significantly bend because one leg has to step in front if the other to move side ways unless you goal is for the horse to kick its grounded leg and hop . I guess that's why dressage riders have to put leg armor on their horses.( sarcasm) .

I believe my original comment was to be conscious of your timing and execution of this exercise for it to be beneficial.


hahaha I'm now vehemently back on the topic. I am so wierd. I admit to being emotionally cued by this. why? I think the horse in the first video is being ridden unfairly, and for this to be used as a demo of how to really really upsets me. I have never seen AB, or Nuno, in video,, and when I visited Saumur be unfair to their horse. but I have seen modern execution of exercises almost to the point of cruelty. I do not believe khall or blob are unfair riders, ( I mention your names because you have disagreed with me here) but I did want to express that I think lateral work that has the horse smacks its legs together or has to change rhythm to avoid stepping on itself, or plant a foot and not be able to lift it in normal sequence is incorrect application of any dressage exercise and should not be posted, admired or emulated in any form. Now I expect everyone will say I am imagining it .

[Ryeissa]

Rye it’s the same concept just one is on a circle which is how I usually do this exercise and one is incorporating straight lines in between the turns.

The benefit is that it teaches the horse to mobilize the haunches without going forward. Mark called this advance the haunch. AB calls it stepping over.

So usually lateral work is done going forward whether on a straight line or curved line the horse still goes forward. In this rotation the horse has to move but not go forward. JJ does incorporate forward on straight lines with this mobilization. AB does not. In fact she will also trot in this position ( the German handbook uses this to teach piaffe) to prepare the horse for piaffe. Why? Because the horse has to take shorter rom steps and engage the sling lifting up in order to do this work.

If it does not resonate with you then don’t do it. But I’ve found it to be very helpful in working my horses. I used it years ago to teach my first horse I bred and raised piaffe following the German handbook so was familiar with the concept before being exposed to it through AB and the Valenca’s. Mark did more of a SI on the circle than this movement. Though he did show me a full pass as in the horse moves fully sideways in a straight line. Still same concept of horse moving but not going forward

One more point I want to make is there is no bend in piaffe and in passage only a tiny bit if doing piaffe HP and straight biomechanically in one time changes.

Sure, I'm just discussion the factors at play, not meant as a dig. Bend and relative body position change/influence why we select something.

I'm also VERY familiar with the two teachers, and use ideas from both. I'm getting a bit confused as you bring in a lot of extra ideas- SF, piaffe, HP. etc. Sorry. I'm not talking about piaffe- no there is no bend in piaffe in a show movement. Never heard it start the way as the bay in the double, but its an interesting idea.

Yes, the bend changes everything- never said it didn't.....that is exactly what I am saying

[Ryeissa]

also SI only encourages weighting the outside shoulder if the horse goes through the outside rein instead of to the outside rein. the SI correctly used lightens the outside shoulder because it shortens the distance between inside hind and outside front in an uphill manner. if you find it weights the outside shoulder you are doing a leg yield in SI position which was one of my points on the danger of leg yield.

This is what I thought, too.

[Ryeissa]

Well chisamba AB uses this exercise and does all the higher level work. Have you read the German handbook of riding? This is exactly how they teach piaffe. These rotations on the circle asking for trot. The Valenca’s use this exercise all the time. It’s one of their cornerstones. Yet they train horses to GP and above ( they train the airs as well) with no issues.

This is not about LYs but about teaching the horse to change their rom with the 4 legs and to diagnolize them

If it does not work for you don’t do it. I’ll go with what I’ve seen and learned. Btw Joplin and Gaila do this movement pretty much every time I work them. They both have lovely green medium trots and incredible lateral work at the trot. Joplin especially is just powerful.

Put your horse in this rotation and ask for the trot see what happens. They have to engage and lift in the front. They do not put more weight on the front end.

https://www.amazon.com/Principles-Ridin ... 0668063939

Look at the cover illustration. This is the book I first learned of this exercise from years ago

yeah, so are we discussing a green horse or advanced horse? you keep bringing up piaffe and all this stuff. It helps to have a better conversation when we are coming from the same place.

I've been doing serious dressage since 1995, and no, I've never heard of the turn the haunches out like this in this rotation,

yes, I have read the german handbook of riding. What page is it on?

[Ryeissa]

the title of the thread is "basic yielding of the leg". so let me recap what I personally have used for horses intro/training in the first phase of work (not at SF/SI alignment as we see in first level+)

Basic- in hand work/longing with hand/whip to teach "step over"

Riding:

LY head to wall-
Various steps of LY - 1/4 line to wall, zig zag, LY with halt/walk trans, LY IN TRANSITIONS
TOF- can make them sticky, so add in forward. This is not my fav exercise and I use it only if the horse is super green.
Spiral in and out in walk, trot canter- any green horse I have ridden could do at least some of this and I like the curved aspect. It tends in my experience to really loosen the back of all these but it's less effective then LY in showing the asymmetry holes

More advanced work I do to test that the horse is listening to the lateral aids- I don't want any lag in the sideways but I also don't want the horse heavy on the outside shoulder when they turn (the outside shoulder has a problem)

HI to SI to HI every 3 steps- rail then 1/4 line
HP to LY to HP
HP to 10m circle to HP
SI to medium (tests medium gaits)

[Ryeissa]

Well chisamba AB uses this exercise and does all the higher level work. Have you read the German handbook of riding? This is exactly how they teach piaffe. These rotations on the circle asking for trot. The Valenca’s use this exercise all the time. It’s one of their cornerstones. Yet they train horses to GP and above ( they train the airs as well) with no issues.

This is not about LYs but about teaching the horse to change their rom with the 4 legs and to diagnolize them

If it does not work for you don’t do it. I’ll go with what I’ve seen and learned. Btw Joplin and Gaila do this movement pretty much every time I work them. They both have lovely green medium trots and incredible lateral work at the trot. Joplin especially is just powerful.

Put your horse in this rotation and ask for the trot see what happens. They have to engage and lift in the front. They do not put more weight on the front end.

https://www.amazon.com/Principles-Ridin ... 0668063939

Look at the cover illustration. This is the book I first learned of this exercise from years ago

no one is saying its not something you should use. I just an asking about context. The bay horse doing the TOF isn't hard, and I would guess most of the regulars here could do it with no problem, and find value. Again, are you specifically doing this work WITH BEND in your horses, or straight like JJ Tate? They are fundamentally not the same movement, sorry. I question the JJ Taste idea as I've never heard of that since....1995....when I did my first dressage show. I would be able to knock it out on my horse no problem, but more curious of the origin. It looks like more of a green horse exercise.

[Ryeissa]

ultimately this is a "brain exercise" for me, so no matter what this is just a friendly discussion. But i get confused with your statements so it would really help me understand if you stick to one idea so I can better see what you are getting at. We are all very good riders here and very well trained. Any criticism is more theortetical and never meant to attack anyone's personal horses. Asking questions is what I'm here for....to learn....

[blob]

the title of the thread is "basic yielding of the leg". so let me recap what I personally have used for horses intro/training in the first phase of work (not at SF/SI alignment as we see in first level+)

Basic- in hand work/longing with hand/whip to teach "step over"

Riding:

LY head to wall-
Various steps of LY - 1/4 line to wall, zig zag, LY with halt/walk trans, LY IN TRANSITIONS
TOF- can make them sticky, so add in forward. This is not my fav exercise and I use it only if the horse is super green.
Spiral in and out in walk, trot canter- any green horse I have ridden could do at least some of this and I like the curved aspect. It tends in my experience to really loosen the back of all these but it's less effective then LY in showing the asymmetry holes

For basics, I also start with just a basic step over in hand.

Under saddle, my first step is a TOF. It can be a TOF in motion, but I do think it is best way to clarify the leg aid of 'over' versus the leg aid of 'go'. At the time that I am introducing this to a horse, I would expect that a horse's understanding of leg aids is limited to 'go'.

After that, I know many do head to rail LY. But I've found that some horses get very anxious with this actually, so i've found it's easier to start with QL to rail, which usually only requires a slight shifting over and not having to maintain angle for a long period. But LY head to wall certainly works for some. And then I grow that to be LY zig zags (between QL and rail with straight strides between). And then to grow it to be CL to rail.

simultaneously with a green horrse I would be introducing more bending lines and balance on a circle. Once the horse was able to maintain a 10-15 meter circle well and was LY easily, I would introduce SI.

[Ryeissa]

the title of the thread is "basic yielding of the leg". so let me recap what I personally have used for horses intro/training in the first phase of work (not at SF/SI alignment as we see in first level+)

Basic- in hand work/longing with hand/whip to teach "step over"

Riding:

LY head to wall-
Various steps of LY - 1/4 line to wall, zig zag, LY with halt/walk trans, LY IN TRANSITIONS
TOF- can make them sticky, so add in forward. This is not my fav exercise and I use it only if the horse is super green.
Spiral in and out in walk, trot canter- any green horse I have ridden could do at least some of this and I like the curved aspect. It tends in my experience to really loosen the back of all these but it's less effective then LY in showing the asymmetry holes

For basics, I also start with just a basic step over in hand.

Under saddle, my first step is a TOF. It can be a TOF in motion, but I do think it is best way to clarify the leg aid of 'over' versus the leg aid of 'go'. At the time that I am introducing this to a horse, I would expect that a horse's understanding of leg aids is limited to 'go'.

After that, I know many do head to rail LY. But I've found that some horses get very anxious with this actually, so i've found it's easier to start with QL to rail, which usually only requires a slight shifting over and not having to maintain angle for a long period. But LY head to wall certainly works for some. And then I grow that to be LY zig zags (between QL and rail with straight strides between). And then to grow it to be CL to rail.

simultaneously with a green horrse I would be introducing more bending lines and balance on a circle. Once the horse was able to maintain a 10-15 meter circle well and was LY easily, I would introduce SI.

Thanks! Very similar to how I think, and I can tell in the pics of the horses we come from a similar school.

Just thought of this.....
when I was at a HJ barn I find they use head to wall LY and TOF quite a bit more than I do in my "dressage" background. I tend to do the LY work you describe in 1/4 to rail

[khall]

I’ll try to not take the questioning so personal Rye and chisamba. Been a busy day here and just have not had time to put my thoughts down.

Have another horse to go ride but will try to come back later. If I can will get some video of my own that I do this work with

[Kyra's Mom]

These discussions make my head hurt .

I feel LY is a 'basic' exercise but I still find it useful. I don't do a ton of it but I do still use it in my warm-up.
Usually 1/4 line to rail. Sometimes I do head to the rail but it is all in my warm up. Sometimes, she doesn't come out really
enthusiastic to work and usually the LY gets her listening to my legs and gets her balanced between my legs. I also sometime do TOF...but I always do it in motion. I like her to be able to move whatever body part I request. Lately I have been doing squares. We do one square with 1/4 TOF at the corners then switch to 1/4 TOH for the next square.

I have had no trouble in her discerning when I am asking for LY or SI. Another favorite exercise I do is LY away from the rail to 1/4 line then half-pass back.
It seems like lateral work (SI, renver, HI, half-pass) have come pretty easy but then I remember she turned 19 on the 17th (I think). Not her fault though, that her rider is a broken down mess and that is why things have taken so long. I was just ready to jump to second level when all the surgeries started and I just haven't and probably never will be back to that level of fitness and flexibility I had before 2013. It doesn't mean I won't keep trying though .

Susan

[khall]

Rye when using the rotation to prepare for piaffe it is done with straightness just some inner flexion. Because in piaffe there is usually not bend (though I’ve seen piaffe done in both SI and HI to address certain issues). This rotation is done to diagnolize the walk before asking for more energy in the movement which leads to piaffe type steps. As the base of the horse shortens in collection the bend is lessened laterally. The reason why horses in higher collection can do voltes is because of that shortened base. The tof and toh square is just the beginnings of this exercise used for the greener horses. No I’m not a fan of JJ execution of the exercise but yes I’ve certainly done this exercise usually with bend.

To be clear there are times I use bend in the rotations on the circle as well if I’m wanting to address certain issues like the horse weighting one shoulder so they shift weight to the opposite shoulder lightening up the inside shoulder it just depends on what I’m wanting to accomplish whether I use bend or not.

Chisamba the nature of shoulder in where the horse moves away from the bend means that weight is shifted to the outside shoulder as the horse moves. SI is designed to lighten the inside shoulder and encourage the inside hind leg engagement but is not nearly as beneficial to collection as the lateral movements where the horse moves into the bend. This is not just my beliefs but has been taught by other trainers out there. PK for one. For me SI is more about straightening the horse which helps prepare the horse for collection but renvere does a much better job of elevating the shoulders and engaging the sling

Chisamba go watch some WE where they go sideways over a pole horses can learn to go completely sideways without hitting themselves. When Mark first introduced this exercise to Rip we did it in the barn aisle facing the stalls so Rip could not go forward. No he did not hit his own legs yes he diagonalized and engaged him greatly. What I found as we worked on it that he could go sideways easily and I could stop and transition to RB easily because of that engagement. Since I’m playing with WE now this will become part of my work. It is harder to do over a pole though!

[Ryeissa]

These discussions make my head hurt .

SAME! TOPIC, STAY ON TOPIC!

[khall]

Rye the topic is basic yielding to the leg but then Piedmont adding into her original post how you can adapt the yielding to the leg in more advanced moves. All of the rotations and yields are about yielding to the inside leg. As is SI yielding to the inside leg just there is more to SI of course.

I work so much in hand that my horses are introduced to the rotation earlier. Along with all the other lateral work I do in hand.

[Chisamba]

These discussions make my head hurt .

SAME! TOPIC, STAY ON TOPIC!

all lateral work is yielding to the leg so it is a very broad topic

[mari]

These discussions make my head hurt .
I feel LY is a 'basic' exercise but I still find it useful. I don't do a ton of it but I do still use it in my warm-up.

I do a ton of it, at all three gaits, basic or not. Odin is a (sweet-tempered) thug, and we get absolutely nowhere with SI or HP if we don't establish the basic get-the-hell-away-from-my-leg response every.single.ride. And for me, LY is the easiest way.