Wow

[khall]

I don’t know if anyone knows of this bone researcher that is in Aiken. Pamela Eckelbarger the Eq-Soma Osteology and Anatomy learning center. She’s on FB. Shared this video. Just wow. This is a great learning resource for us here in the SE and she welcomes groups for learning.

https://fb.watch/5HrOVAO0Dx/

[demi]

Yeah, wow. Just wow. This adds to my belief that a lot of the resistances we see in horses are physical and not simply behavioral.

[Ryeissa]

Yeah, wow. Just wow. This adds to my belief that a lot of the resistances we see in horses are physical and not simply behavioral.

yes, but I got slammed on SF's thread for suggesting the spin outs could be physical. SF& Khall said I was wrong and dismissed my concerns...... So why didn't you guys agree with me there? confused.

[demi]

I didnt slam you Rye. I did mention that Annabelle was still quite young and that I had noticed from the videos that her body had changed a lot in just 6 months , that it looked like she was still growing. But still, I do think that SF is being very careful with her. I think most of us on this board tread lightly in our training.

[demi]

Oops. I meant Tesla, not Annabelle

[StraightForward]

Yeah, wow. Just wow. This adds to my belief that a lot of the resistances we see in horses are physical and not simply behavioral.

yes, but I got slammed on SF's thread for suggesting the spin outs could be physical. SF& Khall said I was wrong and dismissed my concerns...... So why didn't you guys agree with me there? confused.

Because my horse is getting better over time? I don't think disagreement is the same as being slammed Not to mention that I do think she has physical issues, but I'm pretty confident that they are the types that can be addressed with training and bodywork, not congenital abnormalities. To wit: she used to give me WAY more resistance on the lunge line and now she offers canter and goes around happily off a voice cue. That would not be the case if she was resisting because of say, a fused rib or a C6/C7 malformation.

I guess it's OK to "slam" me for not being smart enough to differentiate pain behavior or tell when my horse needs veterinary attention based on my 7 days a week of hands-on experience and frequent assessment by professional bodyworkers, but not OK to disagree with your opinion based on a 5 minute video. And I put slam in quotation marks because I'm thick-skinned enough to just disagree and not take it personally.

Wendy Murdoch did a great webinar with the Equisoma ladies, as well as a fantastic on on e C6/C7 with Sharon May-Davis. Really interesting stuff, but depressing.

[khall]

Rye because I knew that SF has her horses regularly worked on by body worker and seen by competent vet. She’s mentioned it before in other threads. I do the same. My chiro/acupuncturist is the first person I go to if I suspect any issues.

Of course we can miss issues no one is infallible which is why I use two vets for their eyes and experience. And why I am so picky about who I ride with. SF has very good experience riding different horses and yes sometimes some horses just have that push back though there is nothing physically wrong with them. Why I’ve stopped riding Rip it’s just not fun. If you have not experienced WBs then you really don’t know how difficult their temperament can be. Not all Gaila is way easier than her brother and through good work has become just a fun horse to ride. SF Gaila now has a motor and actually anticipates! Rip never ever put that much effort in to anticipate.

Yes it can be depressing with what people do to the horse’s so me times unknowingly but sometimes just because they do not care.

The C6/C7 malformation is one of those. My chiropractic vet has diagnosed a couple and had it confirmed vis radiographs

[Tanga]

I love this, in a way that shows this to people. I had a conversation with some people at my new barn the other day. The one person asked me how I had managed to get so far in my training of my horses, and we had a long conversation that led into conditioning, conditioning and taking your TIME.

I explained I refuse to get on a horse until 4, and then very light work, and NO hard work, collection, stress until 7 or so because their bones do not close in the spine until then as shown in the Ranger study. http://www.equinestudies.org/ranger_200 ... 8_pdf1.pdf All horses grow at this rate, no exceptions. There are no "fast" or "slow" growing studies.

In this discussion the one woman talked about how her TB off the track is lame again and I tried to make an analogy of what working horses so young in to people by talking ballet, which I don't really know about. Turns out she was major into ballet for a long time and she taught me something. You are not supposed to put kids en point until at least 12 because their bones and tendons and such are not strong enough! EXACTLY the point I was making about horses and conditioning. It cripples them if you do it too early, and it may be a long time in figuring it out.

The other analogy I always make is Lippizzaners. They don't even start riding them until 6, and it is VERY common for them to live into their 30's and still be doing airs above the ground. The fact that anyone thinks it is common for horses to be old and crippled in their late teens let alone 20's is stunning. My first horse was an Appy (actually half TB) and I got him from a summer camp where they didn't even start them until 5 and had all winter off. I got him at the end of his 5 year old summer. He was 31 when I lost him and dead sound until the day he died. That is no coincidence.

THANK YOU so much for sharing this. I am sharing it far and wide. This is what I believe. It takes a LONG time to condition a horse to stand up to the work no matter the natural talent. It makes me really upset when I see 9 year olds competing GP!

[silk]

Sharon May-Davis, or SMD (she loves that she had no idea what those letters meant together, until well after she had started referring to herself using them, haha) is amazing. I've done 5 dissections with her, including one of my own horses, which I believe I put up either here or on the UDBB (~6 years ago). I learned so so so much. I hope we can get her back for a "standing" dissection (the cadaver is mounted on a stand so it is upright, rather than lying down on a table) as soon as travel between Oz and NZ is more acceptable.

[Boudicea]

Not that I am disagreeing but there was some research about bone density in young race horses that suggested they had stronger bones than unraced horses. But I never saw the original article. I'm just curious about if the right degree of exercise is ideal? I wonder if anyone else has heard of the race horse research. It was a long time ago though...I just always wondered about it.

Not looking forward to riding a young horse again. Sol is 21 and he has to live forever. He's aware and has agreed.

[Tanga]

Not that I am disagreeing but there was some research about bone density in young race horses that suggested they had stronger bones than unraced horses. But I never saw the original article. I'm just curious about if the right degree of exercise is ideal? I wonder if anyone else has heard of the race horse research. It was a long time ago though...I just always wondered about it.

Not looking forward to riding a young horse again. Sol is 21 and he has to live forever. He's aware and has agreed.

I know that study. The Maryland study was not done to show whether age started has an effect on soundness, but to find out the best way to train racehorses. A friend used to train race horses and explained it to me. The result of the study showed that horses that did varied stress training and were not laid up when they had issues were sounder that horses not so. It doesn't have any real relation to starting horses young and the bone issues. The race horse industry has no interest in doing any studies on this.

[Chisamba]

so she took the bone out of context away from all its supports and cleaned it and everyone is shocked that it became weak and brittle? come on.

[Chisamba]

without being sarcastic, which I was above, is that people who work with dead bones only see a post death portion of the population. why is this a problem? horses that are healthy successful and functioning cannot be compared. So, what is my.point.

fir example " navicular disease " horses that had problems were xrayed. a malformation was observed. the malformation was targeted as the cause. until.....multiple healthy horses never showing pain were discovered to have the same malformation. the malformation no longer was considered a symptom but now simply something that occurs in nature.

in feral conditions mares are bred very young. 2 yo being bred carrying foals and birthing. these are the.mist traumatic actions that the pelvis can incur. you know what happens. nothing. but I'd you killed the horse, removed the pelvis you could snap it in your hands. oh no. oh wow.

I am a HUGE believer in letting horses mature. let them mature. but I am also , in balance, aware that living in a paddock does not give a young horse nearly the range it needs to move and mature well.

kids of the human and non human kind need to move. if you don't have 20 miles of uneven terrain for youngsters to move over daily, you havebto try and repeat all that kind of activity. that doesn't mean riding, it means moving without weight.not on circles daily.

I do not believe in starting a horse under saddle before 4. but I certainly believe in moving the young horse long long before then. my young horses are not asked to accept longitudinal flexion ( the key to using the rear end) before 5. a lot of lateral suppling but not longitudinal.

I am aware that bone only matures fully at age 7. or at least I believe the studies that seem to point in that direction. I do not ask for collected work, in 3rd and 4th level before 7. I don't know if I am right or wrong. it means my horses are all about 10 before they start piaffe, passage, pirouette etc.

that is simply my choice. Kea was 20 when I did PSG. I see others doing all the upper level work before 7.

I am.probably stupidly slow.

but I really think young horses need more consistent active work , and I mean real work,, than they are given.

[Boudicea]

Not that I am disagreeing but there was some research about bone density in young race horses that suggested they had stronger bones than unraced horses. But I never saw the original article. I'm just curious about if the right degree of exercise is ideal? I wonder if anyone else has heard of the race horse research. It was a long time ago though...I just always wondered about it.

Not looking forward to riding a young horse again. Sol is 21 and he has to live forever. He's aware and has agreed.

I know that study. The Maryland study was not done to show whether age started has an effect on soundness, but to find out the best way to train racehorses. A friend used to train race horses and explained it to me. The result of the study showed that horses that did varied stress training and were not laid up when they had issues were sounder that horses not so. It doesn't have any real relation to starting horses young and the bone issues. The race horse industry has no interest in doing any studies on this.

Thanks Tanga! That's interesting. I've always wondered about it.

[khall]

Chisamba and you know for a fact that a 4 year old pelvis would crack in two in these circumstances? These researchers that study the skeletons have unique ability to tell the stories of why these horses had problems in their lives. These bones tell the stories. https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid ... 241&type=3
The story that goes with this pelvis:

Now for "The Rest of the Story" ... concerning the "wonky" pelvis photos I posted last week. The owner gave me permission to share his story, but I will leave out names.

This pelvis was from a 10 yo Hanovarian gelding who was purchased at the auction in Germany at 5 years of age and shipped to Aiken. When he got here, he went to work with a local dressage trainer with no significant issues. The more he worked, the more his behavior changed. At times it was as if a trigger went off (over nothing) he would bolt & buck and run into solid objects. He ended up going through a few more trainers, 2 or 3 years of vet diagnoses but was ultimately deemed too dangerous to ride. His owner donated him to us with hopes of finding answers.

In addition to the pelvis (scroll down a few posts to see the pics), this poor guy's 1st pair of ribs were badly "damaged". Both appear to have been fractured/broken. The right rib healed with a crooked shape, enlarged boney area from which projected bone spurs (enthesophytes). The left rib came out of the compost in 2 pieces, also broken but obviously never re-knitted correctly. Not to mention the malformed rib head and distal end that attaches to the sternum. (the second pic shows the left rib after cleaning)

From what we were told of his history, we can only speculate that he may have had a traumatic accident as a 1 or 2 yo in Germany. Out in the pasture with other youngsters? Perhaps it was not noticed/ or was ignored, we will never know. But he was obviously started and had some basic training when he went to the auction as a 5 yo. If he had had the trauma on the flight over, he would have shown lameness, muscle atrophy, etc. But he did not.


I’m appreciative of the work these researchers do so we as riders can learn to do better or in some cases like with ECVM where the best interest of the horse is to be put out of their misery in some cases.

[Chisamba]

Khall do you know for a fact it wouldn't?

I did a science project as a kid. I found an intact carcass of a small mammal that had been hit by a car on the road. a duiker. so I took it and put it by the ant hill, and the ants completely cleaned the bones. then I attempted to keep the skeleton intact with all the soft tissue removed. it was almost impossible. the bone had no cohesion in absence of the connective tissue.

so the only hands on experience I have is that skeletal structure becomes very unstable in absence of connective tissue, and all the bits of fine wire I used to fulfill my project was not easy to.keep the structure intact.

my other input is simple. it's easy to make correlations that are not causative. it's one of the biggest challenges to scientific study.
how may times have you heard that "red mare" beware. does anyone know for a fact that chestnut mares are more likely to be hot or dies the meme totally ignore the perfectly nice red mares and all the crazy bays?

does color really link to temperament or not?

I have very limited hands on experience with bone, but I have unlimited exposure to correlations without causation. we all do

[khall]

Chisamba yes with this young of a horse (4) this is normal for the pelvis to not have knitted together yet. That is what the video is addressing and stating their position on not working the young horses too early too much. From your post about not working young horses and your timeline it seems you agree.

I was just puzzled by your response though I guess I should not be since you’ve always been skeptical of this type of research. Yet this research has given many answers to some who have struggled with working their horses and the problems they’ve encountered. Sharon May Davis with her research on ECVM and now they are studying the dna of these horses is a good example of the value of this work.

[exvet]

without being sarcastic, which I was above, is that people who work with dead bones only see a post death portion of the population. why is this a problem? horses that are healthy successful and functioning cannot be compared. So, what is my.point.

fir example " navicular disease " horses that had problems were xrayed. a malformation was observed. the malformation was targeted as the cause. until.....multiple healthy horses never showing pain were discovered to have the same malformation. the malformation no longer was considered a symptom but now simply something that occurs in nature.

in feral conditions mares are bred very young. 2 yo being bred carrying foals and birthing. these are the.mist traumatic actions that the pelvis can incur. you know what happens. nothing. but I'd you killed the horse, removed the pelvis you could snap it in your hands. oh no. oh wow.

I am a HUGE believer in letting horses mature. let them mature. but I am also , in balance, aware that living in a paddock does not give a young horse nearly the range it needs to move and mature well.

kids of the human and non human kind need to move. if you don't have 20 miles of uneven terrain for youngsters to move over daily, you havebto try and repeat all that kind of activity. that doesn't mean riding, it means moving without weight.not on circles daily.

I do not believe in starting a horse under saddle before 4. but I certainly believe in moving the young horse long long before then. my young horses are not asked to accept longitudinal flexion ( the key to using the rear end) before 5. a lot of lateral suppling but not longitudinal.

I am aware that bone only matures fully at age 7. or at least I believe the studies that seem to point in that direction. I do not ask for collected work, in 3rd and 4th level before 7. I don't know if I am right or wrong. it means my horses are all about 10 before they start piaffe, passage, pirouette etc.

that is simply my choice. Kea was 20 when I did PSG. I see others doing all the upper level work before 7.

I am.probably stupidly slow.

but I really think young horses need more consistent active work , and I mean real work,, than they are given.

I'm going to venture into the waters (was going to sit this one out) to say that I think you are a voice of reason and balance. I do not dismiss the research that has been raised here, nor do I dismiss the research on demonstrating that bone density can be improved with proper conditioning started at a young age and I'm not saying that anyone here is dismissing all the research. I agree 100% with Tanga on the point that the bone density study was reviewing one aspect, just ONE aspect, on how exercise can benefit the skeletal system without looking into the impact on other aspects (ie, joint health, etc). The point is that research analysis/review cannot be done in a vacuum. That is when information which may be accurate in situ becomes a red herring when applied to real life or taken out of context. I think that young horses do require and benefit from PROPER conditioning exercise but that is far from saying that I think they need to be schooled and worked in dressage from the age of 2 or 3. I think that many of us here are conscientious enough to take things slowly with our horses and listen to what their bodies are telling us. The fact that we post about findings and research to share our thoughts and question conventional or new wave wisdom proves that. I think it is very hard in this day and age to provide ideal conditioning to young horses that doesn't cause undue wear and tear on their joints and soft tissue given some of the management practices of modern day. We all do our best with what we have. It is a huge reason why I would have Tamara in TN foal out and keep many of our youngstock (if you remember she had literally 1000+ acres at her disposal) and I wouldn't pick them up until they were 2-3 years old. Running out on the huge acreage of hills etc I believed helped provide them with conditioning benefits that I would be hard pressed to provide on a small desert ranch. Their hard play did result in some injuries but those that survived relatively unscathed have demonstrated soundness into their later ages. I do believe in ponying if it can be done safely to allow some of the same conditioning benefits and/or backing and trail riding for the same. Monty who was foaled in Phoenix is a classic example of this approach. He is sound and still working at PSG/intermediate at age 23. I will go deeper into the boiling water and say that I'm lucky in that I'm a pony jock. I am able to ride/back/start my critters as a petite rider and get away with less stress on their joints and bones but just enough to give them the benefits minus the deleterious effects the highlighted bodies of research are demonstrating......that is not to say you can't do it if you are of more normal proportions than I. It can be done but like many of you have proven you have to understand and be mindful of the effects of what you're asking of your horse given it's age and present physical (and mental) condition.

You can do everything right and still have unforeseen accidents and injuries. Horses raised and trained perfectly are not immune to such; but, they do stand a better chance of making it to grand old ages without crippling skeletal issues. Perfect also doesn't come in one single script either........but listening to the horse, understanding physiology and biomechanics does help us apply our training in a way that develops their bodies and physical abilities safely utilizing the situation we're limited to in terms of management. IMO the problems comes when we decide to alter the time line or increase the pressures of the training process too soon and/or fail to listen to the horse as an individual in terms of what their bodies are telling us. Research done properly and interpreted outside of the vacuum helps us improve as caretakers of our horses.........just keep in mind though that our horses don't always read the text books; so, at the end of the book or chapter you must always, always, always listen to your horse because they will tell you if they can or can't, should or shouldn't even if they're willing to do so because you ask.....vs.....I don't wanna........you just need to look at their bodies, feel their resistances and then be tactful in backing off or approaching from a different angle whatever the next step in the training process is to avoid injury or exacerbating something that is subclinical without necessarily training resistances (like avoiding the right rein just because Junior doesn't like to use that side of his body as an example). From my years on this board and on the others I think this group as a whole has been far more successful in doing just what I suggest/recommend (as a veterinarian and as an ammy trainer).

[khall]

Exvet and chisamba why I posted this video is to support the research these bone studies do. They give us answers we often don’t have in dealing with significant issues in the training realm. You can breed and raise them train them to the best of your ability but if they have C6 C7 malformation no amount of correct work will fix that. That malformation was only recognized through the study of many necropsies and the bones of those horses.

We also know how limiting the size of our equines can be in the ability to have a wide range of diagnostics to get to the bottom of the issues. The above pelvis I posted from this bone researcher is a perfect example of the limits to our diagnostics

I also want to point out that this researcher knows the history of each horse that she has a skeleton of. This is not just about looking at the skeletons though that is educational in and of itself but about knowing the problems the horses had and letting the skeleton give them answers. Now this particular researcher is limiting the skeletons to ECVM and are getting dna from these horses to try to find where that malformation is in the sequence so hopefully in the future we won’t continue to breed this problem.

This particular video just reiterates the fragility of a young horse and why we all should be careful (which I think this board we are) of how we work our young horses.

Not all trainers have this understanding. In fact a good many of those starting young horses do not. I think if they did a bit more education their approach might change. A good friend of mine who worked with Mark also works with a Horsemanship trainer. They just put a start on a herd of two year olds:(. It was a “learning” experience for this trainer’s students. We are talking small QH babies with big western saddles and in some cases big men. This same trainer talks of lightening the front end by flexing the horse’s nose to his foot. I’m saddened by the lack of understanding of the equine anatomy that leads to this training.

[exvet]

I appreciate the post khall. I'm not questioning or criticizing the research, the purpose of the research or the purpose of your post. If DNA sequencing can be identified that is specific to the cervical malformation problem then hallelujah. There are many 'conditions' for which I will avoid like the plague with my breeding program if I have any knowledge of it in a breeding prospect's background even without such research because of what we've known anecdotally for many years about some of them. I had a little involvement/experience with the identification of hyperkalemia in the Impressive line and the direct genetic link...............unfortunately that was years before the finally successful fight (lots of legal threats) to 'encourage' albeit the still reluctant AQHA doing the genetic testing and eventually denotation on the papers.

There are and there always will be a lagging in diagnostic capabilities on livestock. This means that sometimes you simply have to use and rely even more heavily on common sense, gut feel and even weighing in on the side of prevention through avoidance being better than risking a problem that 'might' be genetic................but that is my conclusion. It shouldn't come as any surprise that a lot of what is seen today regarding medical issues can be linked to management practices (including training), congenital issues that aren't always identified, and 'simple'(NOT) genetics. I don't require anyone else march to my drum or pray to my ODGs but I do welcome and encourage not just the sharing of research but the questioning of it because so often studies and their manuscripts aren't always completely unbiased (and unbiased doesn't mean it's tainted/inaccurate just that not all mitigating factors have been accounted for or eliminated).

[Chisamba]

all research that I have read which is probably three studies but I believe generally accepted is that the hock and femur growth plates are mature at 3 to 3.5 years and the pelvis at 4 years. on the other hand the spinal growth continues til 6. my major concern wrt maturity is not the pelvis, which is so well supported by.muscle that often a broken pelvis will heal with stall rest, ( as will a broken neck fyi) but the spinal processes have much.less supportive musculature and carry the weight of the rider.

if anyone had different research I would be interested to see it.

[khall]

Well considering I knew 3 horses who had major pelvic injuries two who lost their life to them the other was permanently lame and I euthanasized an aged OTTB because of a former neck fracture that caused him to become neurologic as he aged I take any fracture seriously to any of their bones. And the above pelvis from Equisoma should make us all shudder that that horse was marketed and sold with that injury. Not to mention that any injury causing a equine pelvis to fracture except maybe a wing fracture from hitting the hip is going to cause more damage than just to bone.

I frankly am a geek when it comes to anatomy of mammals. I like the neurology I like the muscular skeleton system I like nutrition and breeding. I like foals and mares and stallions. I handled stallions for breeding professionally and extended semen for shipping. I’m just a geek when it comes to learning about horses especially. My knowledge has evolved drastically in the 40 years I’ve owned horses. Hell I owned them when we still tube wormed them! And had no clue about gastric or pyloric or hind gut ulcers. When sweet feed or pellets were what we all fed. So I get excited about these bone researchers and really would like to make a trip to equisoma in Aiken. The C6 C7 malformation is just fascinating. Especially comparing to other equid species. How humans can f*** things up with our breeding practices.

I hear you exvet on hoping they can isolate the gene mutation for this malformation but also understand that may not be enough to change breeding practices considering SMD from my understanding has had death threats to keep her from revealing the TB lines she has seen this malformations in.

I think this is a good interview of SMD

https://www.horsenation.com/2015/06/23/ ... anatomist/

[StraightForward]

Relevant https://thehorsesback.com/yes-we-can-im ... vertebrae/