Hypermobility of joints

[demi]

Has anyone ever heard of this? I’ve seen something in my mare Emma that I could only describe I as “double jointed”. I have lots of pictures that show what I’m seeing . So this morning I just saw an article on hypermobility of joints in the purpose bred horse and am wondering if this is Emma’s problem. Hypermobility sounds like what I think of as double jointed. It would explain a lot of her quirkiness and resistance to working. And it would explain why she became sour to dressage and was sold at a low price.

Her temperament has become so sweet since I’ve stopped trying to train her. So sweet, that just a week ago I ordered a new bit for her and thought I would try to put her back in a regular work program. I tried the new bit on her last night. It’s a short shanked Pelham with a double jointed, lozenged mouthpiece. A Steuben of nice quality. It fit her like a glove and she responded so beautifully that it almost gave me goosebumps...but I didnt even got on her back. I just stood at her left shoulder and put my right arm over her withers and took up the reins like I was on her.

Then I saw this article this morning:

https://www.equitopiacenter.com/the-pri ... ar-horses/

If she actually has this condition I don’t know if I should put her back to work. The article said that people with this condition are often in pain most of the time. I think i need to ask my vet about this....

[khall]

Remember Xanthoria’s gelding? This was his problem. Yes I’ve been aware of the WBs breeding this into their stock for awhile. A donnerhall daughter I knew as a brood mare still being bred had fetlocks that touched the ground. Her foals were getting premium foal awards.

Not just in WBs I know an Arabian breeder whose foundation sire has horribly dropped fetlocks and he passes it on to some.

[Ponichiwa]

I also knew a Appendix gelding (7/8ths TB) and more than a few TBs with this issue, although they may have been induced by racing injuries.

I've got a mare that has great pasterns with no signs of sagging, but who has told me repeatedly that she just does not want to be a riding horse. Might be something that's not easy/cheap to diagnose, might be just her, but either way there's no shame in not riding a horse that's not happy with the work.

[Lipsmackerpony88]

I can't do say what this means for horses but I have this condition. I do ache a lot and get small injuries often. For me, staying fit and strong helps but I definitely can over do it and must be careful. Harder to do with an animal though. It's sad

[Kelo1]

I'm familiar with examples of this in Quarter Horses.

Some of the elite lines of cutting horses are associated with a disease called HERDA, hereditary equine regional dermal asthenia. In its worst manifestations the skin basically sloughs off the horse when pressure is applied to the skin....in other words, when this disease first started making an appearance, people would saddle these young horses to be ridden, and their skin would slough off because of the saddle's pressure. Obviously now there's a test for it that all QHs have to take and those results are recorded on their papers.

The trick is that in many heterozygous cases, the horse is not only 100% functional (with no ill health effects) but it is actually associated with the horse's ability to be exceptional on a cow.

In a presentation I heard about it, the speaker said HERDA is similar to what is called Ehlers-Danlos Syndrome in humans, which is a joint/connective tissue hypermobility disease. The speaker said that a fairly high percentage of people that you see in certain performing arts like Cirque du Soleil actually have it, because it gives them exceptional expression in their bodies.

So the same thing happens with these elite horses. They are able to have exceptional expression when they go to that cow because of their body's hypermobility, and get the scores and get the wins, and it passes on.

Anyway, I know the QH industry tests and tracks for it. I wouldn't be surprised at all if WBs had a similar condition, but I have no idea if the WB world even so much as acknowledges it, much less tracks it.

Here's a link that has a little info: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a ... 0613008125

[khall]

Kelo no the WBs do not track. I do know of one stallion that was pulled because of an inherited disease don’t remember if it was PSSM or dsld there has been discussions on dsld in WBs for awhile but there is no genetic testing for it yet.

[Tanga]

Yes. A long time ago we bought a TB for a client. He was a pretty amazing mover, but I remember thinking at the time and being worried that he would sort of fling himself apart. He did. Over the years the fetlocks started sagging to the point where he was lame all of the time. He was always overusing and hurting himself, one of those horses that had constant little problems. He ended up being donated to Davis.

If Emma has this, I'm not sure what to tell you. She will eventually become unrideable. I don't actually know if riding her until then would hurt her.

[demi]

Thanks for all the input. Each and every comment on this thread has been helpful.

I rode Emma regualarly the first year i got her and then off and on for another 4 years. I periodically decided to just completely stop riding her, and then went back on my decision and tried again. Among her problems is that she’s also a sweet itch horse. Thanks to this board, I got her a Boett sheet and that was a big piece in the puzzle of caring for her. Having that under control has added to her greatly improved disposition. Even DH has noticed how friendly and engaged in human interaction she’s become. That has fueled my recent desire to try to put her back in regular work.

I already had a couple of reasons for NOT riding her. Mostly for my own safety (she can and does buck) but also because it takes a lot of time to have 2 horses in regular work. Seeing the article on hypermobility of joints JUST at the time I was seriously going to put her back to work, and reading “all y’alls” comments helped me make the decision not to ride her anymore. I went back and looked at all my pics of her and seeing her legs at the weirdest angles imaginable, also helped to make the final decision.

A big part of why I was having trouble letting go of riding her is that she is trained to 4th/PSG. That’s why I took the chance on buying her. Fortunately, I am lucky to have Rocky to ride and train and maybe I’ll be lucky enough to get HER up to that level.

[StraightForward]

Demi - I wonder if a compromise might be working on long-lining with her? I think there is a lot to learn from "riding from the ground" and that might allow you to take advantage of her level of training in some way, but not put as much stress on her body?

[demi]

SF, I wish I was motivated more by long-lining. I have thought about it and it probably would be good for Em because she wouldnt have my added weight. And I might actually be able to take advantage of her training. But....i just dont enjoy the ground work. I did it with Rocky in 2014 when i was recovering from a bad fall. Multiple broken ribs, broken clavicle, broken scapula (Doc said people rarely break the scapula ) collapsed and baldly torn lung...I got a book on long lining that Galopp recommended and followed it to the letter. Rocky was a cooperative partner, but as soon as I was able to get back on, I never long lined again. I love to watch other people do it, especially the Lipizzans. Just not me.

I even considered that it would be great exercise for me, too. I have been doing IF for a few months and have gotten some energy back and now it’s time to add some more exercise again. Today I started back on my old workout with weight program (Jane Fonda). Doing the JF programs will be more balanced than long lining Emma.

[demi]

Here is Emma showing her “double joints”. She can do this with either hind leg and both fronts. She can stand up fairly square so it isn’t that she’s simply crooked legged. I have been reading about all the different hypermobility syndromes and it’s confusing. At any rate, I have reconsidered SF’s suggestion about long reining. I will modify it to fit Emma’s needs and my own. She is 15.2hh and I’ll have a hard time keeping up with her on the ground, but she probably shouldn’t do much more than walk anyway.

7903B821-C48F-42A6-AC4C-717D35F3EA16.jpeg (105.39 KiB) Viewed 3708 times

[Flight]

Norsey does that too, especially with his near hind. Once I took a pic of him bucking in the paddock and it looked like his hoof was on backwards!
My coach who does a lot of rehab work and is very invested in biomechanics has encouraged me to ride him straight, not a lot of big lateral work, and not asking for big movement.

[Tanga]

That's not the hypermobility I was talking about. I was thinking excessive movement and eventually dropping of the fetlocks. It doesn't seem to be what's in the article, either.

Quinn stands something like that fairly regularly. How old is she? The younger they are, the more able they are to do that. The more they develop muscles in the chest and inside the hind legs, the less they tend to do that.

[demi]

Tanga, there seems to be several kinds of hypermobility of joints. There is HERDA that Kelo referenced. And then EDS that Lipsmackerpony has. And I found articles on HSD (hypermobility Specrtrum disorder) and HMS (hypermobility syndrome). In some of the articles I really couldn’t see what the pictures were supposed to be showing. Like a sagging back.

Emma is 18 and not down in the fetlocks at all. She has had twisty turny legs since I got her at 13. She has really high withers and I cant really tell if her back is sagging.

Flight, I can understand why your rehab guy says to ride Norsey straight and not too deep lateral work. That’s how I work Em when I ride her. I have also been afraid to try FC’s with her for a couple of reasons related to her twisty legs. One is that I think it takes some experience (which I don’t have) to keep any horse straight doing FC’s and another reason is that the trainer she was with when I bought her said she had started refusing to canter at all.

She is way out of shape right now so I’m going to see how much I can build her by walking only, just straight lines and nothing smaller than 20M circles. I’ll talk to my vet in the mean time, and go from there...