Lets talk Double bridles

[Shirrine]

I have recently put Lewyn into a double bridle full time. He has worn it at shows but not a lot in work. I avoided the use because I wasn't happy with his contact or attitude.
I can just say wow in the improvement in contact, swing, use of his back and attitude. He has become light and into a soft contact. He is over his back and so much more forward. He was obviously ready for this change and I was encouraged by my instructor to leave him in it for the time being.
I see people canning the use of the double and wonder if it is rider fault rather than bridle fault.

Shirrine

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I don't think there's anything wrong with using a double! It gives us added tools that can be used to further refine our ride. I think where there can be an issue is when the double is used to mask problems rather than enhance something. For example, if someone CAN'T do something at all unless they have the double on than there's likely a training gap somewhere. But I think that's true of most added "aids". For example, spurs help me get more engagement (sit and push) with my horse, so it's a more quality ride with them. But if I couldn't ride my horse at all without them, then that's a basic training issue.

[Ponichiwa]

The double is the right answer for some horses, absolutely. Not all, though. My FEI horse was DHH in a very stereotypical way: upright neck, hocks out behind, the whole works. Early on in his double-wearing career, if he hit the curb his neck would get about 2" long and miles high. So we rode in the snaffle until he was honestly out in the connection in all movements (esp pirouette and piaffe).

I have just ordered a double for my chubby little quarter horse despite not at all being ready for it, training-wise, because I have no chill. We'll see how he goes in it.

[blob]

The double is the right answer for some horses, absolutely. Not all, though. My FEI horse was DHH in a very stereotypical way: upright neck, hocks out behind, the whole works. Early on in his double-wearing career, if he hit the curb his neck would get about 2" long and miles high. So we rode in the snaffle until he was honestly out in the connection in all movements (esp pirouette and piaffe).

I have just ordered a double for my chubby little quarter horse despite not at all being ready for it, training-wise, because I have no chill. We'll see how he goes in it.

Interesting that you bring this up, Ponchiwa. I have been thinking about RP and the double bridle lady. He's not ready for it either, but he will be one that may or may not go well in the double. I think he has the risk of being like your DHH--2" long and miles high--in a double. He also is very sensitive in the mouth and very sensitive to poll pressure (why he's in a baucher now), so I also wonder if the added poll pressure of the curb will just send him into a tizzy. He's definitely one that I could see simply not going well in a double ever. He's also one that might really benefit from it given how sensitive he is, it might be a very effective tool. If he was even close to MM's size, I probably start occasionally putting her double on him and hand walking him around some to see how he reacted to it. But since his head is much smaller, I will wait to spend money on a pony double (also inevitably harder to find, i'm sure).

[KathyK]

Interesting timing on this post, Shirrine. My horse has always gone pretty well in the double, much better than in the snaffle. In the snaffle can be a bully, taking over, pulling, bracing, and generally using his big strong neck and shoulders against me.

Last week it occurred to me that I was approaching my rides in the snaffle all wrong. I was trying to ride the same way that I ride him in the double, and it wasn't working. At all. So we went back to "snaffle kindergarten," spending as much time as we had to on walk/halt and trot/walk transitions. I have also made a point of waiting until he is honest in the connection, on the aids, and I have all of his attention before making any kind of transition. This has worked really well, and has translated to big improvements not only in the snaffle (we have matriculated to first grade, lol), but also to the double. I am [patiently, if necessary] waiting until he is on the aids and I'm very picky about the quality of the connection and the gait before I make any kind of change.

I'm sure there are plenty of people reading this who are thinking, "Well, duh!" I'm just glad I figured it out, even if kind of late in the game.

[exvet]

The double is the right answer for some horses, absolutely. Not all, though. My FEI horse was DHH in a very stereotypical way: upright neck, hocks out behind, the whole works. Early on in his double-wearing career, if he hit the curb his neck would get about 2" long and miles high. So we rode in the snaffle until he was honestly out in the connection in all movements (esp pirouette and piaffe).

I have just ordered a double for my chubby little quarter horse despite not at all being ready for it, training-wise, because I have no chill. We'll see how he goes in it.

Interesting that you bring this up, Ponchiwa. I have been thinking about RP and the double bridle lady. He's not ready for it either, but he will be one that may or may not go well in the double. I think he has the risk of being like your DHH--2" long and miles high--in a double. He also is very sensitive in the mouth and very sensitive to poll pressure (why he's in a baucher now), so I also wonder if the added poll pressure of the curb will just send him into a tizzy. He's definitely one that I could see simply not going well in a double ever. He's also one that might really benefit from it given how sensitive he is, it might be a very effective tool. If he was even close to MM's size, I probably start occasionally putting her double on him and hand walking him around some to see how he reacted to it. But since his head is much smaller, I will wait to spend money on a pony double (also inevitably harder to find, i'm sure).

I have found both Bobby's Bridles in the double and Stubben (double) to work very well on my Welsh (those that are truly pony size and height). As for the bits, I purchased Stubben overseas and was very happy with them. I ended up selling it all, only to be faced with purchasing again for Junior. He's actually got a rather small head for his beastly frame; so, I might have been better off keeping what I had......oh well.

[Shirrine]

Lewyn is welsh as well. I am lucky here that there are a lot of ponies in the show ring so getting pony stuff is fairly easy.
My last couple of rides have been among the best rides I have had on him. He is so much softer and obliging. I always put his behaviour down to being a bit of a brat. Nothing to bad but against me more than with me, we are now with each other. He was obviously ready for this change.
I am so happy with what I am getting and next month going up a level.

Shirrine

[StraightForward]

Bumping this up... I just impulse bought an inexpensive double from Schneider's. Any ideas for good starter double bridle bits? And sizes? She is currently going in a single-jointed Fager titanium Baucher, and before that, a single-jointed HS loose ring. Her normal snaffle size is 5.25".

I'm in no rush, but might keep an eye on eBay and see if I can snag something.

[Moutaineer]

SF, the woman I bought Potters from was using a set from Classic Saddlery (classicsaddlery.com) which seemed to be perfectly decent quality, and the price is certainly right to start out. (disclaimer... Potters so far doesn't really seem to be fussed about what bit he is wearing.)

[StraightForward]

Thanks Moutaineer! I read a bit (no pun intended) about double combos on the Neu Schule website, but not really in the mood to spend $500 on a set of bits when we're so far out from really needing them. Annabelle isn't too fussed about bits either, other than she can get heavy, but that is more of a riding issue. It does seem that she prefers a single to double jointed, and no Mylers, but that's about it.

[StraightForward]

Found this really useful video on fitting the double bridle: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KiU_hihkvX4

I ended up getting knockoff cyprium bits on eBay and a Collegiate ComfiTec weymouth bridle. Pleasantly surprised by the Collegiate bridle for $125 (took a chance ordering from Stateline, which I know can be Not Great these days). It has a nice ergonomic crank noseband and cushy crownpiece. The cheek pieces are a bit short, but I have plenty of parts around here so that's not a problem. Should be a good enough set to get started with anyway.

[exvet]

I just opened the dusty bag containing my stallion's double bridle. It's a FSS that's a combination Cob/pony size. I still have a kk bradoon that I used on one of my previous welsh cobs. All of my weymouths are low ports. I may play around getting Junior used to a double bridle. First I have see if it and the bits fit and how well he tolerates the whole thing.

[StraightForward]

Still playing with the fit but it seems like this will work out. I think I need to put full size cheek pieces on the curb, and maybe get a different curb chain and/or a chain guard. Just trying to arrange everything so there aren't tons of buckles all on top of each other. Practiced braiding ahead of showing next weekend for the first time in three years, so had to snap a pic. She wasn't too impressed by all the hardware in her mouth, but seemed to start getting used to it after a bit.

[Chisamba]

straightforward, I was taught to have the bradoon a half size larger than her snaffle so the it can be set where the bradoon and curb do not overlap like you have in the photo.

[StraightForward]

The bradoon is just under 5.5 (135mm) and the curb is 5. I think the curb needs to be dropped a touch, but it was on the last holes, so I need to put on longer cheek pieces. If that doesn't work, I could get a 5.75 bradoon. Twice as many bits makes it 4x harder to fit!

ETA: I think I might be able to go to a 4.75 curb. Hmm. The snaffle ring will sit outside of the curb, but things might have gotten rearranged since Annabelle was a little excited about being up on the canal bank for her photo shoot and the reins were going in different directions than if I'd been riding.

Well this is why I'm getting a big headstart on figuring this out (and don't worry, before I start riding with the double I'll check in with the pros to make sure I haven't screwed it up too badly).

[Ponichiwa]

Thanks for bumping this thread, SF. I don't have any valuable insight to add but...

I splurged on a custom frankenbridle for Queso, who apparently needed pony-sized cheekpieces and a horse-size crown. I'm borrowing bits just to check the fit of the bridle, but had to take a picture because the Q is adorable:



Next excitement: bit shopping.

[StraightForward]

Oh, that bridle looks stunning on him!

That pic is actually helpful too. They seem to have fairly similar head and mouth conformation. The videos tend to feature warmbloods with a lot more real estate for arranging all this gear.

[Chisamba]

I am not really looking forward to fitting mine. my half Arabians needed such skinny leather to fit their fine faces.

kimba and Saiph do not have big heads so I guess I'll go the same route

[Ryeissa]

Lovely bridle on Q~ He's so handsome.

[Kyra's Mom]

Everyone looks so...grown-up .

I should probably try a double with Kyra given her extreme difficulty with snaffles? I am not sure I can sort out all the reins but if I can get her back in more regular work, I might give is a try. I might even try Karen Rolhf's double...bitless for the snaffle and then a normal curb bit. I have her bitless bridle so have the set-up I need. It might be a safer way to try the set-up and for me to learn to operate all that leather. I am going to have to find a skinny bits (within the rules) as Kyra just does not have much room in her mouth and likewise has a pretty refined head.

Susan

[Shirrine]

I have put Lewyn back in his snaffle to see whether this has helped as he still needs to compete in snaffle. The difference is amazing. He is accepting contact so much better than ever before. I now rotate between and he is so accepting of everything I am asking him for. Stretching by following the bit down and b]picking up off legs and seat without fuss.

Shirrine

[Tanga]

I am late to the game, but finally got a new computer, so typing is not painfully slow.

In general, I think playing back and forth with using the double to see what it can help you with is a good idea. I had to put a double on Quinn at 3rd because I was afraid she might kill me after I got hurt badly and the double was the only way I felt safe. The when she got better, I went back to the snaffle. I waited to long to ride Quilla in the double because she is so overly sensitive, and she was able to use her quickness to drop out from under me in the snaffle, which I can prevent in the double.

Before shows I ride in the double because I want things to stay the same. When I have a break, like now, I'm riding in the snaffle. Because I have been able to get them more through and connected in the double, I can go back to the snaffle and still do the same work and not lose it.

My doubles are pieces from my garage of various new and old bridles and pieces, none expensive. I ended up settling on very short shanked curbs (3" for the whole shank) on both bridles. One has a straight mouth, one a slight half moon. They both wear the same size and I don't really notice a difference between the two bits. I think those were about $25. I ended up getting a bridoon snaffle bit just because the rings of the regular snaffle were too big for the double. They are both eggbutts because my big issue is I don't want any pinching going on.

After getting eliminated after riding in a leather curb "chain" for ten years because I don't like chains and hooks near their mouths there, I use these curb hooks to try to lessen any possible pinching. https://www.doversaddlery.com/rubber-co ... X1-013113/

I also made my own curb change holder with extra padding from old neoprene.

[StraightForward]

Thanks Tanga, good input! I was looking at getting those exact same hooks. I have wondered what is wrong with using a leather curb strap? I could also do that as I don't expect to be competing in a double any time in the foreseeable future. These curb chains seem unnecessarily clunky and difficult to get adjusted and laying correctly.

Can you elaborate on your choice of shank length? I know that a longer shank = more leverage of course. But my experience with curbs is from riding western, so 5cm and 7cm shanks both seem short. Stubben makes a weymouth that is really short and comes in a 4.75. Wondering if I'm better off starting with that?

Shirrine, glad to hear Lewyn is going well for you and you're seeing results when he is back in the snaffle!

[Tanga]

There is nothing wrong with the leather curb strap, but, after much conversation with TD's where it went to the national convention, the feedback was you can't change the original bit. Which is BS because putting on different curb hooks is changing it. It's milder, so it should be good. But that involves the FEI changing their rules.

I used the longer shanks before because they are much easier to find. Originally it was Quilla that was super over sensitive, and I wanted the double because she can get away from me in the snaffle, so I found a shorter one. Then I moved Quinn into it. My thinking is I would always prefer less over more. If you need that much leverage to really get anything done, you need to go back and get the horse stronger and more correct.

Here's a picture of what I have on Quinn.

Screen Shot 2021-08-25 at 10.27.05 AM.png (111.68 KiB) Viewed 5608 times

[blob]

SF--the longer shanks ultimately get more leverage, but are also less sensitive to what your hand does, so they can also be more forgiving.

I'm still struggling to find the right bit combo for MM. I do think she sometimes gets heavy with the double. NS rep had recommended the verbindend bradoon, but MM also can duck behind contact, so I'm not sure it's the right combo.

I found at the last show that we scored better in the snaffle. It was a different day and a different judge, but I do think she might have come off better

[Tanga]

I'm still struggling to find the right bit combo for MM. I do think she sometimes gets heavy with the double. NS rep had recommended the verbindend bradoon, but MM also can duck behind contact, so I'm not sure it's the right combo.

I found at the last show that we scored better in the snaffle. It was a different day and a different judge, but I do think she might have come off better

I do the same thing. I never know what quite works best and am always changing this slightly to try to improve. And then of course there is the situation where you never quite need the same thing all of the time and what you need changes, so you're never quite right! Ah! But I guess that's the good part of the double. You can more use as little or much as you'd like whenever you need.

[exvet]

I'm still struggling to find the right bit combo for MM. I do think she sometimes gets heavy with the double. NS rep had recommended the verbindend bradoon, but MM also can duck behind contact, so I'm not sure it's the right combo.

I found at the last show that we scored better in the snaffle. It was a different day and a different judge, but I do think she might have come off better

I do the same thing. I never know what quite works best and am always changing this slightly to try to improve. And then of course there is the situation where you never quite need the same thing all of the time and what you need changes, so you're never quite right! Ah! But I guess that's the good part of the double. You can more use as little or much as you'd like whenever you need.

I found when showing Monty who was often dinged for his short neck (conformationally that's what it was and not always the hand or failure to seek the bit) and crestiness that those who immediately felt that way about him scored me better when I rode in the snaffle; however, there were plenty of times I rode in the double and still managed to score in the 60s. I agree that you can often finesse more with the double; but, that's also a bit tricky. I actually had a judge comment that the curb was there to be used and my curb rein was too loose. I went back and looked at the video that I had taken and there were no gaps, no loop in the rein but I also was clearly not hanging on to it either. He wasn't bearing down or failing to engage but our 4 tempis were way off which I think she felt I wasn't keeping him collected enough and on the gas pedal enough to force the issue. For me it's always been a damned if you do damned if you don't sort of thing because as said, sometimes I wasn't always riding the same horse depending on the venue or weather. When riding the stinker pony, I often got the comment that he looked so cute in the double like a little worker bee - far less the issue of whether to use it or not. To be honest I really didn't need the curb for much with him except in the medium and extended gaits. It helped to keep him from getting too flat before the corner of each of those movements. I did find it effective in my stallion in more situations but he also is far more sensitive than the other two. I haven't put the one my daughter has loaned me on Junior yet. I'm waiting for a couple of things to come through (clinics I've applied for and upcoming schooling shows) before I do. It'll be interesting to see how he handles the two bits. In the end I always have both bridles ready and must admit that I frequently rely on my coach's opinion based on her knowledge of other judges and how she sees us going on 'the' day as to what I ride in when possible.

[Tanga]

For me it's always been a damned if you do damned if you don't sort of thing

Exactly. Short and sweet. Whatever you're doing, maybe you should have done something else!

[Ponichiwa]

I bought a thinner mouthpiece curb with very short shanks and I love it. Queso was much more confident with less metal in his mouth and the tiny shanks are adorable (and also because he's a chubby cresty guy I don't want to have too strong of a curb action or we may never see his head again).

Arguably this is a horse that may not need a curb at all, but what I can say after our last ride in the double is that he's getting much more stable in the bridle. Part of that is I'm much more conscious of where and what my hands are doing so I don't ding him with the curb, for sure, but he's also getting the passive curb signal when he gets fussy.

Haven't ridden in a double in years and I missed it a lot, guys.

[StraightForward]

Anyone considering Fager bits, FagerUSA is doing 20% off right now. I just bit the bullet and bought a titanium bradoon (Madeline) and weymouth (Elizabeth) since they don't come up on sale very frequently. Annabelle has been in their loose ring baucher for about a year and this bradoon is the same mouthpiece. I was noticing when cleaning bridles last night how the titanium stays smoother than the mixed alloy type bits, which is a bonus.