Introducing counter canter

[Anne]

We are unable to access regular instruction, so are doing this on our own.... we are introducing counter canter : I have started with a half 15m circle at the end of the arena, then canter on the diagonal back to the long side, and trot before the corner (it is a movement in a test we have done a few times). However, on the right lead, my horse has decided it is easier for him to change to left lead before reaching the long side. Unfortunately, he only changes in front, so goes disunited until we come back to trot. If I remember to *ride* the counter canter we can usually get through it, keeping the flexion to the direction of the leading leg and keeping his energy up. But, if I forget to ride (yup, it happens, and of course I am working on being more aware etc etc), he tends to change.

So, my question is, does anyone have any advice, exercises, hints etc for developing counter-canter? Thanks!!

[drg]

Have you seen this article on counter canter?
http://www.usdf.org/EduDocs/Training/In ... 01_May.pdf

[Flight]

I was taught to start them with shallow loops? Even just coming off the longside only 2m at first, then gradually making them deeper.

[mari]

I'm with Flight - start with shallow loops. As the strength and suppleness gradually increases, you make your loop bigger.

[redsoxluvr]

I always start with shallow loops. Start with just going to the quarter line, then increase to centerline. When the horse can go to the centerline and back to the rail comfortably he is ready to start with a 15M half circle back to the rail. Stay in counter canter through the short side, then change through the trot to true canter on the long side.

FWIW, the horse should be comfortable cantering a 15M circle in good horizontal balance before you start the counter canter.

[Kathy Johnson]

If possible, take the horse to a large (non dressage) arena with wider corners and fewer visual cues for the horse. Or work in a field. Make large sweeping turns. The horse won't associate the rail so much with a lead.

Also simple changes along the rail help promote straightness and teach the horse to take either lead no matter which way he is going in the arena.

[Fatcat]

Another one who teaches with shallow loops to the quarter line and back. Isn't this a movement in first level? It's been ten years since I have shown, but I seem to remember it in first.

[StraightForward]

Even before shallow loops, you can head down the quarterline and then canter back to the rail (basically the second half of the loop).

[Ryans Friend]

My trainer suggested I ride the counter canter as though I am asking for the canter depart. Seems to help.

[Anne]

Thanks all for your helpful replies! I should have said we are already doing shallow loops - only to quarter line as we only have a 20x40m arena. He manages those quite well, and also can canter a 15m circle in good balance. So thinking on it, I will focus more on the quality of the shallow loop. And Kathy J that is a great idea - it is like he spots the rail and goes 'ah-hah, I know what is coming and I know how to make this easier!'.

[Flight]

I used to hate counter canter. So I just had to do more of it.
I only have a 40 by 20m arena too, so I'd do big ovals in it in counter canter, especially on our 'bad' side. One of those things, just keep cracking away at it
Video yourself too, if you haven't got much instruction available. Just so you can check you aren't over flexing, riding too slow, or too open etc.

[mld02004]

Another one who teaches with shallow loops to the quarter line and back. Isn't this a movement in first level? It's been ten years since I have shown, but I seem to remember it in first.

Yes, I think it used to be first test 3.

[Amado]

Bending and counterbending down the long side while in true canter will help. Also counterbent turns at walk and trot (and then at canter when you can do them at the walk and trot) so that the horse learns that he can turn with his head/neck bent in the direction of the turn and also with them bent away from the direction of the turn. That you can turn and move his shoulders whichever direction you want no matter which way you have him bent/laterally flexed. (hope that makes sense) Because he needs to wait for the lead change when you aid him with your seat/legs, not when you change the bend or direction.

[lorilu]

Bending and counterbending down the long side while in true canter will help. Also counterbent turns at walk and trot (and then at canter when you can do them at the walk and trot) so that the horse learns that he can turn with his head/neck bent in the direction of the turn and also with them bent away from the direction of the turn. That you can turn and move his shoulders whichever direction you want no matter which way you have him bent/laterally flexed. (hope that makes sense) Because he needs to wait for the lead change when you aid him with your seat/legs, not when you change the bend or direction.

This is how my trainer trains it. First the counter bending then on bending lines - like the shallow loop - then big circles. Sets them up for success not only in CC but for the changes later on.

[Anne]

Amado - yes, that makes sense, and sounds really useful. We do counter-bend in walk and a little in trot, and do some counter-shoulder-in on the circle as well. I had a crappy ride today (my fault! just got tense and naggy, argh), though we did recover for a few good moments. Onwards tomorrow!!

[Josette]

This is tricky for us too as I believe someone previous rushed my guy's training to put changes on him. Our small ring 20x40 also is limiting and he seems to anticipate what to do. I totally agree about trying it outside of the ring - - - my largest paddock has trees so great for suppling and bending as long as you watch where you are going. However canter with care.

[Magicboy]

in addition to all these suggestions for exercises i might add to really engage your core and dont change your position no matter what the horse does. easier said than done , of course, but really important for you not to change your weight or tilt when the horse is in counter canter. holding your position steady will make it easier for the horse to continue

[demi]

I've also just started introducing counter canter to my horse. I rode today before I read Magicboy's comment, and I realize now that I was leaning. A lot. I was doing shallow loops. I was fine going from the rail toward X, but going back to the rail I was getting myself out of balance by trying to keep her IN balance. The result was that she'd break to trot within just a few strides of starting back to the wall
I'm looking forward to trying it again tomorrow with the objective of really engaging my core to hold my position steady.

[demi]

Anyone else work on this today? I really focused on engaging my core today and started just walking the shallow loops, in a small arena, and only going to the quarter line and back. I walked the pattern, changing direction after every couple of loops, for probably 10 minutes. I needed this amount of time for my joints to loosen up. Then I started trotting the pattern and became aware of where I was falling short. I was leaning into each loop, so I made a conscious effort to engage my core and correct my position. As soon as i did this, I realized that Rocky wasn't forward enough. I have also been working on shortening the reins and she is still building strength to carry herself accordingly. Since she's a hot little mare and tends to think I ask unreasonable things from her, I compromised by giving her another inch ( and ONLY and inch!)of rein, and then insisted she go (and stay) more forward.
It worked. The trot loops were much better.
Next I cantered some 20M circles with the same forward energy as the trot had been, while keeping my core engaged. THEN, I tried one shallow loop on the left lead canter and it felt very nice!! I halted from the canter(she's half quarter horse and loves to halt from canter! kind of abrupt!) told her she was fabulous, and got off. She nickered when i praised her because she knew she would be getting a cookie.
I dont know if i should trail ride her tomorrow, or repeat today's ride...I'm open for any suggestions.

[Moutaineer]

Too many jumps in the way for me this evening. Must be patient until Friday, when the hunters leave for their championship show...

[demi]

just wanted to say that I did the same routine today as yesterday only adding some bending and counterbending at walk and trot, plus 5 shallow loops instead of one. Two good ones on the left rein, and one on the left rein where she broke to trot. Two on the right rein were good. They are a little "rough" but I'm happy because it's a good start.
Also, at the end of ride, I took back the inch of rein I had given her for learning the new exercise, and did a few minutes of trot, just 20M circles. It felt really nice.
I like the bending and counterbending idea but don't think i could do it a canter. I am thinking once I get the shallow circles consistantly, the next step will be bending and counterbending at canter...

[Amado]

For the counterbending (of the head and neck) at the canter, start small - Try a small counterflexion down the long side at the canter - keep your legs in the true canter position, and ask for the slightest counter flexion - so you get just a small turn of the head to the outside, while still cantering straight down the long side. Just for a few strides, maintaining your rhythm and tempo and straightess in her body. And then the same with the inside flexion.

[Anne]

Good report Demi, that sounds like positive progress to me! I am away from the horses for the next week or 10 days, but will try to report in once I am back in action.

[demi]

This thread is helpful. Thanks all who are contrbuting
I didnt ride yesterday but in planning my ride for today i pulled out a few things from the article "introducing the CC" by Gerhard Pollitz (thanx for sharing it, DJR). Plus, I found Amado's post in the "Welcome and updates" thread about her work with the western trainer on flying changes, really helpful (thnx Amado and the pics of you a Rico are really nice. I like the way he goes for you and I like your position).
This is what i pulled from both of the above:
- Amado's trainer spent probably the first 8 rides introducing the changes which reminds me that dressage takes lots of time.
- it took her awhile to go from not trying too hard (omgoodness)and that issue was addresed In the Gerhard article, he said : "Above all, do not make any contortions with your upper body when counter-cantering on curved lines. Just sit quietly and allow yourself to be carried by your horse's movement". Which leads to my next point because the horse needs to be up to speed on a few things in order for me to sit quietly and allow.
-Prerequisites to teaching CC from Gerhard article (in my own words): horse should be able to do a somewhat collected canter; and should be able to make correct and RELAXED canter-walk and walk-canter transitions.
SO...for today i plan to do the same thing i did on Wednesday and at the end work on a few canter-walk, walk- canter transitions.

[demi]

Yesterday was "lesson 3" of intro CC for Rocky. There were a couple of things that surprised me. First, she seemed a little "high energy".After the first 10 or so minutes of walking the shallow loop with bending and counter bending, I started to trot the loops and she reverted to an old trick of trying to pull the right rein out of my hand. I can't remember when she last did that, it's been so long ago. But because I was so concentrated on engaging my core, and keeping my position, she was only slightly successful in her attempt. Then she went into spook mode but because there was nothing to spook at except maybe the new routine, I ignored her. I had started out with about 1 inch longer rein length as a compromise for the new exercise but at this point I shortened the reins, and gave her a strong half-halt. Here was the second surprise: it was the best response to a half-halt she's ever given me. She felt much more connected so I went right into 20m canter circles. I cantered her quite a while in both directions. It was at this point that I realized that her canter needs more work. One of the pre-requisites for into to CC per the Gerhard Pollitz article is a "somewhat collected canter". One of the other prerequisites was relaxed c-w,w-c transitions, so I tried a few to see if they would help collect the canter. She did them but they were very rough. I did several more and they improved a little and I ended the ride with a few shallow loops at canter. Still rough, but she did them.

She had a long turnout today and i didnt ride, so she should be happy to go back into the arena tomorrow and then I will just repeat Saturday's lesson with the addition of quite a few c-t-c transitions before i do the c-w,w-c transitions....
By not putting a time frame on this process, I am finding it more enjoyable. The new and improved half-halt was really enjoyable, and Rocky picks up very quickly on when I like something that she does. She loves it when I think she's a star!

[Niki]

Bending and counterbending down the long side while in true canter will help. Also counterbent turns at walk and trot (and then at canter when you can do them at the walk and trot) so that the horse learns that he can turn with his head/neck bent in the direction of the turn and also with them bent away from the direction of the turn. That you can turn and move his shoulders whichever direction you want no matter which way you have him bent/laterally flexed. (hope that makes sense) Because he needs to wait for the lead change when you aid him with your seat/legs, not when you change the bend or direction.

This is how my trainer trains it. First the counter bending then on bending lines - like the shallow loop - then big circles. Sets them up for success not only in CC but for the changes later on.

Mines similar too though i'm "not allowed" to do true counter canter with my mare as shes naturally happily counter canters and rarely changes herself. We know flying changes will be a difficult concept for her.

Recently though i started playing more with the flexions on the straight and the amount of lightbulbs i've had going off in my head has been great but scary too as this exercise really highlighted how much is my riding at fault.

[kande50]

One of the pre-requisites for into to CC per the Gerhard Pollitz article is a "somewhat collected canter". One of the other prerequisites was relaxed c-w,w-c transitions, so I tried a few to see if they would help collect the canter. She did them but they were very rough. I did several more and they improved a little and I ended the ride with a few shallow loops at canter. Still rough, but she did them.

Thanks for posting that, as I'd been thinking that there were several other things I needed to improve before starting CC. But maybe I'll go ahead and try it--just a couple of shallow loops--to get into the "more canter work" frame of mind.

[demi]

Rocky's CC work this morning was similar to Saturday's except that I started right off with trot on the shorter rein (She had been out on pasture for 2 hours already so didnt need a real warm-up). The half-halts I had gotten on Saturday with the shorter rein were just as good today. I didn't feel as if I could get the same results on the bending/counter-bending with the shorter rein so I didn't do any bending/countr-bending. It was a trade off but I wanted the better half-halts in order to work on a more collected canter and better c-t-c and w-c, c-w transitions.
The transitions were definitely better on the shorter rein and they were consistent. I'm not sure if the canter could actually be considered collected at this point but for her it's quite improved from even just a month ago.
At the end of the ride i got several shallow canter loops that I was happy with. I definitely plan to get back to bending/counter-bending but not until it feels right with the shorter rein...I think...

[lorilu]

[

Mines similar too though i'm "not allowed" to do true counter canter with my mare as shes naturally happily counter canters and rarely changes herself. We know flying changes will be a difficult concept for her.

Recently though i started playing more with the flexions on the straight and the amount of lightbulbs i've had going off in my head has been great but scary too as this exercise really highlighted how much is my riding at fault.

Niki, my previous horse was just like that. More than one trainer of some note said he would not get them. Clinicians that pushed him "FORWARD" into the change made things worse. Trainer has been working on changes for a YEAR - and he now has them. First, she had to show him how to do them..... and make no big deal out of it (He was pushed by a previous trainer and was quite tense about it). Then lots of suppeling work as outlined in my post, occasionally asking for one if everything was just right. No worries if he was late behind - just made sure he was not tense. SOmetimes that meant dropping into trot immediately after if he surged.

Be patient. REAL patient.

[Niki]

Thank Lorilu - i suspect showing her how to do them will be the tricky bit. Once she realizes what we are asking i have no doubt she'll be fine as shes very willing and tries really hard. Its just getting her to actually do one initially and successfully. I can count on one hand how many changes i've seen her do at liberty in 5 years.

I have hope though - last night we finally found a new gear in canter that we've been working towards for the last few months and i'm not in a hurry. I rarely show as i'd rather have lessons etc so the goal is to just go as far as possible together.

[Moutaineer]

So, reading through this, and thinking about my own experiences with CC, I do wonder whether we generally try to introduce it in the wrong order, and that it would be much more sensible to develop the balance and strength needed for the simple changes and some degree of collection first.

[Amado]

I think you are right, Mountaineer, balance and strength and some degree of collection first - Counter canter doesn't show up in the tests til 2nd level.

A few random thoughts from an adult amateur who has been working towards lead changes for a long time (not even sure they belong in this thread!)

I was taught that the Canter-Walk and Walk-Canter transitions needed to be *really* good before you start the lead changes.

Canter walk transitions only work well when you can really collect the canter before the transition. (otherwise you go splat on the forehand)

Collecting the canter requires strength and balance (counter canter actually helps with balance) Transitions within the canter help with this. Three or four strides of collection (but maintaining the canter energy), then back to working canter. (But if you aren't doing transitions within the canter yet, don't start with collection, start with going FORWARD. So working canter, go FORWARD for 3 or 4 strides, and back to working. Because the collection always has to keep the energy/forward feel, that's what keeps it uphill. Once you can do this, back and forth between the forward and working, then you can start playing the other direction.)

And a really good way to practice longitudinally balanced downward transitions (canter to trot or canter to walk) is to set them up with a series of two collected/forward transitions within the canter before you do the downward (so collect, collect, collect, forward to working canter for 4 or 5 strides, then collect, collect, collect, forward to working canter for 4 or 5 strides, then collect, collect, collect, downward transition. Because the horse thinks you are going to go forward again, so he sets himself up to push, meaning, he sits back, gets his hind end underneath him, and that helps him carry his weight into the downward transition, and not go splat on his front end.

[Amado]

One more set of random thoughts - about counter canter. I've heard both "don't do too much counter canter before you teach changes" and "you need a solid counter canter before you teach the changes".

I did it the second way. I got help from a professional with excellent timing who believes that the counter canter has to be solid, (and it was) and he had no trouble introducing the changes. I had him school them over 7 or 8 rides before I started riding them.

[Ponichiwa]

I like to introduce counter canter by asking for half of that single loop from the 1-3 test. Come around the short side, ride from the corner to X, and then canter straight along the centerline. This takes away the sometimes mind-bending counter positioning required by the full single loop, and introduces the horse to the idea of working in canter off the wall without frying them. If it's easy, feel free to finish the loop. If the tempo varies, the connection drops, or any other of a myriad of terrible things happen, keep calm and keep schooling until it feels easy.

I also vary it by doing a full short diagonal (corner to E/B) and canter straight along the opposite wall, asking for a downward transition before the corner if the horse feels unbalanced or unready for the next short side.

As a rider, keep breathing. Simple, but not easy. Holding your breath is a natural reaction, but telegraphs "THIS IS GOING TO BE DIFFICULT" to the horse.

One more set of random thoughts - about counter canter. I've heard both "don't do too much counter canter before you teach changes" and "you need a solid counter canter before you teach the changes".

I did it the second way. I got help from a professional with excellent timing who believes that the counter canter has to be solid, (and it was) and he had no trouble introducing the changes. I had him school them over 7 or 8 rides before I started riding them.

I don't think either philosophy is wrong. The nuance is that changes are "easy" (airquotes here, because sometimes they aren't) when the half halt goes all the way through and they're tough when it doesn't. Counter canter can be a great way to access that half halt. If counter canter for counter canter's sake is the only goal and the horse is punished for offering a change, then it's a terrible way to get a half halt and it's an even worse way to set a horse up for changes.

[Chisamba]

just remember how good horses are at association of ideas. If we ride in an enclosed area, for a while, maybe for years, every time the are asked to canter, the rail or wall is on their outside. you have to free them of that association. i will go and school canter around the outside of the dressage arena, making sure they are in a comfortable canter, but with the rail on the inside.. they sort of go, oh, i am comfortable, oh the rail is in the wrong place.. i will even do it around the outside of the barn, if you have an indoor arena that you can go all the way around.

once they have changed their perception of lead versus rail, doing counter canter does not confuse them . simple changes of lead on the long wall helps too, i will change just after M, then change again between B and F, so they have cantered the long side in counter canter, but are on the correct lead for the corners. once they are comfy with that, i will simply maintain the counter through a shallow corner and then cross the next diagonal back onto the correct lead, doing a simple change again at F.

i try to be flexible based on what the horse seems to find the easiest way to learn,

[Amado]

i try to be flexible based on what the horse seems to find the easiest way to learn

That makes a lot of sense.

[Anne]

Thanks all for continuing the discussion, these all seem like really good ideas and I am itching to try them. Not until next week though, as I am away from home at present.

[demi]

So, reading through this, and thinking about my own experiences with CC, I do wonder whether we generally try to introduce it in the wrong order, and that it would be much more sensible to develop the balance and strength needed for the simple changes and some degree of collection first.

This makes sense to me, too. Right now, I am at simply the introduction stage, the shallow loops. Just by trying shallow loops, I was able to see how balanced Rocky is, how balance I am, and what we need in order to improve our balance together.

Previous to introducing the CC, I had started riding her consistently with a shorter rein. She was accepting it, but without any challenge. When I tried the shallow loops, that was a challenge to the shorter rein. In the process of introducing the CC, over several days, I played with rein length, half-halts, bending/counterbending, and w-c, c-w, and then c-t-c-t transitions. Playing things back and forth.

It seems to be coming together and as it does, her (our) balance is getting better, and she is getting stronger. My plan is to stay where we are for a while, build some strength, and let things stabilize. It is a fun and satisfying place to be for now. I am enjoying our rides and am fairly sure that Rocky is, too. She usually needs a trail ride to freshen up after 2-3 days in the arena but right now, even after several days in the arena with the CC intro work, I think I could ride her in the arena again tomorrow and she would be happy about it. I read that as a sign that the work is going well.

[Brydie]

I am looking at starting work on the counter canter as there is a loop to X in Novice 2.3 here (guessing you guys also have one in First 3?). I've just been researching the placement of the horse's body as I can't remember reading anything on this in this thread. The advice I have found is the position should be like a 'canter leg yield'. The horse should be straight with slight flexion to the leading leg... Would you say this is correct?

[Chisamba]

I am looking at starting work on the counter canter as there is a loop to X in Novice 2.3 here (guessing you guys also have one in First 3?). I've just been researching the placement of the horse's body as I can't remember reading anything on this in this thread. The advice I have found is the position should be like a 'canter leg yield'. The horse should be straight with slight flexion to the leading leg... Would you say this is correct?

exactly as you would position the horse if it were cantering on the correct lead, only the other way flexion to the leading leg, enough to just see the eyebrow, curved around the rider's leg on the leading leg side, with the rider's leg on the other side placed slightly behind the girth to keep the bend through the whole body.

easy mistake, overbending to the outside and letting the hauches fall in

[Brydie]

I've always ridden the loops with bend to the leading leg just not sure on how much! I've read discussions about which way the horse should be bent/flexed. As I'm a training level rider, now almost schooling all elements of first... What is the correct way to ride the loop to X? One old thread I read on coth was, from F head straight towards S, go straight on the centreline a couple of strides then straight to M (maintaining flexion towards the leading leg). Really unsure of how I should be riding these canter loops!

[demi]

Really unsure of how I should be riding these canter loops!

Hello Byrdie, have you read the article referenced by drg early in this thread? I was, and still am working on the balance in the shallow loop and found the article really helpful. The article, by Gerhard Pollitz, had a couple of diagrams that helped me quite a bit. The fisrt diagram is of the First Level canter loop and it clearly shows the geometry. For me, just seeing the diagram gave me a lot of information. As I looked at it, I imagined how it would feel to ride it, and then, when I actually rode it, the pieces of the puzzle started to fit together.

Good luck and have fun! Let us know how it goes.As another poster in this thread mentioned, "be patient" because this takes some time.

[demi]

Have you seen this article on counter canter?
http://www.usdf.org/EduDocs/Training/In ... 01_May.pdf

Here's the article.

[Chisamba]

i do not know if it just me, but the article posted does not open for me

[musical comedy]

i do not know if it just me, but the article posted does not open for me

http://www.usdf.org/EduDocs/Training/In ... 01_May.pdf

[Chisamba]

thank you musical comedy, excellent article.

[Brydie]

Yes I read that article when it was posted thanks I guess I'm just looking for more of a "through the riders eyes" explanation and not a birds eye view diagram. It's OK though

[kande50]

I read the article, which clarified some of my questions, so went out yesterday to try again. I get distracted easily though, so only remembered to make one attempt to do the shallow loop. Last time I tried it I tried to go all the way to X, which didn't work at all because I couldn't fit the other half of the loop in before the corner. So this time I planned it a little better and made it back toward the wall far enough to be able to get around the corner: https://youtu.be/ZbKy_pU2-us

Same loop, from the front: https://youtu.be/N30hPSP5-fs

What I like best about this project is that it has inspired me to canter more, which has been fun.

Suggestions welcome.

[Moutaineer]

I should have read that article before my ride today, instead of waiting until I got home!

In fairness, we've got it down going in one direction. The other is more perplexing for us both. We practice on....

Lesson tomorrow. I think I know what we need to spend some time working on with supervision!

[demi]

I should have read that article before my ride today, instead of waiting until I got home!

Ha ha! If it's any consolation, I thoroughly read and studied the article and STILL had some problems. I had the one side better issue(left lead)at first, but then it switched to the right side being better. Things improved but now the weather is interfering....we really needed the rain, though.

Thanks for your update.