canter adjustability

[blob]

One of the things I am struggling with right now is having true adjustability and control in the canter with MM. Can I collect and extend? Yes. But when I collect MM I get a pirouette type canter--a lot of sit, but also a lot of jump in the shoulder. And that jump in her shoulder is not always under my control. A clincian mentioned that I needed to be able to make her canter small--not that I should always be riding a small canter, but that I should have the ability to do so. and I most definitely do not have the ability to make her canter small. Even in 'collection' it has a lot of jump, making it difficult to control.

So, what exercises do you have to help get that adjustability to make the canter as small or to change the amount of jump ?

[Flight]

Is it a climbing canter or a lot of jump? I'm always being told by competition riders, that I need more jump lol. Does it slow down too much? If you keep the tempo a little faster and not ask for too much does that make a difference? Or if you go shoulder fore does that lessen the jump?
Sorry not much help.
Have you got any video to share?

[blob]

It's not a climbing canter--it just has a jump. It's actually a GOOD canter, so that's not the issue. I don't want to lose the canter. It's more the fact that I do not have the adjustability to make the canter small/lessen the jump while still keeping a canter going and there are times when I need a smaller collected canter/or rather just have that adjustability. Right now she collects and she extends but when I ask for collection she gets very jumpy up front and I don't really have control over the level of jump. It's either a pirouette type canter or it's not a collected canter or it's not a canter at all.

[exvet]

This sounds more like a strength issue. Junior will also jump more when I reallllllllly collect him. The actual phase of stride is really good; but, I have no ability to consistently influence him with the outside rein/controlling the outside shoulder. I don't want to lose the jump but I do want him to become more supple so that I can move his shoulders/front end where ever I want which I can't really do yet. Is that more of what's going on? Right now my plan is to simply work more on cantering squares because I feel he is better able to grasp what I'm asking for with the outside rein and get more softening and not as much bracing through the shoulders - or at least so far I think I am getting a better feel and know it will help him with strength which I think is the real issue that is causing our problem.

[khall]

Blob is MM getting a bit stuck too up in the neck when she gets climby? I wonder if you take her just a bit deeper in the neck if that would help the adjustability of the canter. One thing Cedar has me do to help the quality of the canter is to be able to change the flexion to the outside but not change the bend. Helps keep that jaw supple in the canter. Karen R does this as well if you are a member of her video classroom

[blob]

This sounds more like a strength issue. Junior will also jump more when I reallllllllly collect him. The actual phase of stride is really good; but, I have no ability to consistently influence him with the outside rein/controlling the outside shoulder. I don't want to lose the jump but I do want him to become more supple so that I can move his shoulders/front end where ever I want which I can't really do yet. Is that more of what's going on? Right now my plan is to simply work more on cantering squares because I feel he is better able to grasp what I'm asking for with the outside rein and get more softening and not as much bracing through the shoulders - or at least so far I think I am getting a better feel and know it will help him with strength which I think is the real issue that is causing our problem.

yes, this sounds quite similar! And right now cantering a smaller square is REALLY REALLY hard/not very doable. She gets too leapy in the front and I just cannot contain the canter to get the right dimension. So, I think I need other exercises to help us get to the square.

Blob is MM getting a bit stuck too up in the neck when she gets climby? I wonder if you take her just a bit deeper in the neck if that would help the adjustability of the canter. One thing Cedar has me do to help the quality of the canter is to be able to change the flexion to the outside but not change the bend. Helps keep that jaw supple in the canter. Karen R does this as well if you are a member of her video classroom

I have more issues with her getting too deep (not curled behind contact, but low in the poll) here than the other way around. Changing her flexion/softening the jaw are usually pretty easy. It's other parts of her body that feel stuck--shoulder/loin

[Ryeissa]

I have more issues with her getting too deep (not curled behind contact, but low in the poll) here than the other way around. Changing her flexion/softening the jaw are usually pretty easy. It's other parts of her body that feel stuck--shoulder/loin

yes, I think we have the same horse- many things are exactly what I deal with in my smaller guy/same type.
Do you have a video of the canter? I'm having trouble suggesting things when I am not 100% sure I understand what you are experiencing.

One suggestion is to try canter poles on the ground set at various distances. I find it very helpful to help the horse adjust the balance and "keep coming forward" as the jumps are naturally interesting and engaging. You can shorten or lengthen as needed. It might help keep the horse forward and not so "hoppy" in front. Also, opening the back with the half seat if you use a jump saddle also can really help. I rode my horse exclusively in a jump saddle for 2 yrs and I thought it would negatively affect the collection, but in fact it was just the ticket. A bit of a roundabout way but for horses with short backs and necks this is so helpful. Its also fun and keeps it fresh. My horse can get quite tense in the canter sometimes.

[blob]

Hmm...poles are an interesting suggestion. In general the poles tend to make her even more expressive in front, which is what i'm trying to curb. She isn't getting hoppy the way some horses do when they don't want to go forward--it's easy to open her up into a bigger stride and get her more forward. I just can't collect AND keep control over the shoulder. If she collects it's all big shoulder movements like a pirouette. But I can move her out of that canter with no problem, so she doesn't quite get stuck in it the way some horses do .

I don't have any video, but I will try to get some.

The jump saddle could be interesting, though I don't actually own one, ha. But that does make me ownder if trying this in two point will help. I wonder if i'm getting so much jump in front partly from sitting in the saddle and maybe trying to collect in two point will help!

[Ryeissa]

try setting the poles at different spacings- if the average canter is 4 strides between then collect to 5 strides then next time extend so you get 3 strides.
What exactly is she doing with the shoulder? Is it going up/down or is it falling either L/R or both? IT sounds like its really up/down? Isn't that what you want?
You don't need a jump saddle of course, but I happen to have one.

[Chisamba]

it sounds like she is going through the outside rein instead of to it. ( if I understand your description)

3 things I do.

1. adjust the canter not on the bit. if keep her up and nose ahead of the vertical and make her canter smaller and bigger

2. counter bend or zero bend. and make the canter bigger and smaller.

3. ride in canter behind someone doing a medium walk and do not catch up . care only about keeping the canter at walk speed.

once you have done all three.ypu will know what needs fixing

[blob]

Isn't that what you want?

Yes! It's a good quality stride. The problem is that I don't have the control in it of the shoulder. So, to anyone watching it looks like a lovely collected canter. But I do not have the ability to make the adjustments I need for the more advanced work. As the trainer said--it's not that I need to ride the small canter, but I need the ability to make the canter small.



Thanks, Chisamba--those are helpful ideas. I can anticipate that we will lose the canter in #3. But I am curious to try it to be sure!

[Ryeissa]

Isn't that what you want?

Yes! It's a good quality stride. The problem is that I don't have the control in it of the shoulder. So, to anyone watching it looks like a lovely collected canter. But I do not have the ability to make the adjustments I need for the more advanced work. As the trainer said--it's not that I need to ride the small canter, but I need the ability to make the canter small.



Thanks, Chisamba--those are helpful ideas. I can anticipate that we will lose the canter in #3. But I am curious to try it to be sure!

sure, I think that makes sense. Give it time~ sounds like good progress

[Tanga]

I know exactly what you're talking about. This was my issue with the ones. The canter was big, but the head is going up and down. The head can't go up and down. That is not collected. That was my lightbulb moment.

So, I worked on this this by going back and forth, all with a LOT of leg (I gave in and got a bigger spur instead of trying to be so minimalist.) So the forward is UP and UNDER from the HIND end really off the leg. The back is UP and UNDER from the HIND end really off the leg. Those first few coming backs can be pretty gnarly. They want to dive down, shorten, or flip the head up. I think of trying to get them to rear or levade--that much energy. It is ALL about strength. Depending on how strong they are depends on how long it takes to get it. Now I warm up both like that every single time.

I also do a circle (straight line works, too) pushing the haunches out, strong outside rein to keep straight, forcing the super collection on the inside hind. This is a really good test to see if they are actually collected. If you do it and they start jumping up and down and the head goes up and down, you're n collected. A steady, up head no matter what you're doing is the sign of being correct.

I'm looking for a video to show a good difference between good and bad, but can't find it right now.

[Chisamba]

well a collected canter is walk speed I tell my riders they need to walk at canter speed and canter at walk speed. that information us based in Spanish Riding School, so I guess it's training based not competition based, although the current top dressage rider( Jessica and Daleera) in the world has been training with SRS chief rider Andreas Hausberger for over a decade.

[blob]

well a collected canter is walk speed I tell my riders they need to walk at canter speed and canter at walk speed. that information us based in Spanish Riding School, so I guess it's training based not competition based, although the current top dressage rider( Jessica and Daleera) in the world has been training with SRS chief rider Andreas Hausberger for over a decade.

fully agree. The issue is truly that I don't have a true collected canter that is under my control. I can canter close to on the spot for a few strides, so the ability to come forward and back is there. but I do not have the adjustability to close up the stride to that degree and maintain.

[khall]

Strategies for better engagement of the canter

HI at the canter
Renvere in CC
Straightening the neck more so the energy does not escape the outside shoulder
Counterbending and yielding the haunches
Canter in hand
Piaffe-canter
RB-canter
Think about grounding the outside hind with the outside leg. Step into that outside stirrup. I like to think outside leg back and down

[Ryeissa]

well a collected canter is walk speed I tell my riders they need to walk at canter speed and canter at walk speed. that information us based in Spanish Riding School, so I guess it's training based not competition based, although the current top dressage rider( Jessica and Daleera) in the world has been training with SRS chief rider Andreas Hausberger for over a decade.

speed? Like beats per min across the ground? Rate of going? Or distance traveled? I don't really use the word speed in my work but I assume you mean tempo (rate of travel).

I have a different view. I have found that my canter work has to be a much quicker tempo than I was doing. I was always way way too slow in the collection in all gaits and there is actually quite a lot of power in it, its just up and down not out/back. My horse tends to stall behind, so it could also depend on what your problem areas are.

In my experience horses have a good beats per min that shouldn't change just because they are doing a collected gait vs extended gait.

[Tanga]

There is a massive difference between collected canter in preparation for the pirouette and the collected canter at 4th and above in general and into things like the tempis. No way is the latter walk speed. In general the collected canter is lot more forward, gaining ground than it used to be few decades ago. If you do temp changes at walk speed it's a mess. I can show you videos.

The tempo "should" be the same in collected and extended. That doesn't mean it is. And I agree, most horses go far too slow in the tempo in collected and can stall out. It is much harder to keep the tempo up in super collected and pirouette. I see a lot of of horses having a problem with it, and then having to do the slow, huge pirouette. it is harder to do it in quicker tempo, but much more correct and controllable. I have been working a lot on that. Last show I think I got 12 steps in it with Koch and she gave me a 7.5. (She always counts them, and that is a high score for her.)

[Ryeissa]

There is a massive difference between collected canter in preparation for the pirouette and the collected canter at 4th and above in general and into things like the tempis. No way is the latter walk speed. In general the collected canter is lot more forward, gaining ground than it used to be few decades ago. If you do temp changes at walk speed it's a mess. I can show you videos.

The tempo "should" be the same in collected and extended. That doesn't mean it is. And I agree, most horses go far too slow in the tempo in collected and can stall out. It is much harder to keep the tempo up in super collected and pirouette. I see a lot of of horses having a problem with it, and then having to do the slow, huge pirouette. it is harder to do it in quicker tempo, but much more correct and controllable. I have been working a lot on that. Last show I think I got 12 steps in it with Koch and she gave me a 7.5. (She always counts them, and that is a high score for her.)

I'm talking about 2nd/3rd level collected canter as that is where Blob and I are schooling....Thanks for the post!

[khall]

I agree with tanga telling collected canter. There should be several gears in that collection depending on what movement you are doing with the canter before pirouette being the highest collection

[Chisamba]

I knew that would get the boo birds booing.
In a clinic with Anders Lindgren. non SRS. he was brought in by the USDF to improve quality of instruction in the USA.. He taught me a lot,, lesson plans , tone of voice,, just tons of stuff.. But we had to ride too.. We did the clinic in the same place, same riders, three consecutive years.
in the third year he expected us to be 4th level ready. He had us eight riders on a 20 m circle. and had us walk alternate, in other words, first horse walk second canter, 3rd walk etc etc, a full circle then he would have us transition . eight horses, one connemara, one 18hh OTTB and a few walmbloods, my Anglo Arab,. that is how well he expected us to rate the collected. and no. speed is not tempo, it is simply speed. each horse could have a different tempo and travel the same speed based on stride length, jump etc.

this is for training. adjustability. collection without losing rhythm. when the SRS does the long.lines the human rarely changes speed. ok. he obviously slows down for piaffe lol.

make sure you hang around long enough to watch the tempi

https://youtu.be/4ZX3IKvYW0Y

[Ryeissa]

I knew that would get the boo birds booing.
In a clinic with Anders Lindgren. non SRS. he was brought in by the USDF to improve quality of instruction in the USA.. He taught me a lot,, lesson plans , tone of voice,, just tons of stuff.. But we had to ride too.. We did the clinic in the same place, same riders, three consecutive years.
in the third year he expected us to be 4th level ready. He had us eight riders on a 20 m circle. and had us walk alternate, in other words, first horse walk second canter, 3rd walk etc etc, a full circle then he would have us transition . eight horses, one connemara, one 18hh OTTB and a few walmbloods, my Anglo Arab,. that is how well he expected us to rate the collected. and no. speed is not tempo, it is simply speed. each horse could have a different tempo and travel the same speed based on stride length, jump etc.

this is for training. adjustability. collection without losing rhythm. when the SRS does the long.lines the human rarely changes speed. ok. he obviously slows down for piaffe lol.

make sure you hang around London enough to watch the tempi

https://youtu.be/4ZX3IKvYW0Y

I'm not booing, I'm just not understanding. I think you are talking about speed here, I'm talking about collection. I don't think these are the same concepts. I have times that I slow the walk but that is more when my horse was green and figuring out symmetry and balance. Now the walk has to have power as I build collection. Different stages of work. I was in a clinic with GP rider and I got told over and over I was too damn slow at all gaits. Wake up and get going! Collection is animalted and powerful. JMHO.

[khall]

Chisamba would you go through an entire test in that highly collected canter? I definitely see the benefits of using this canter for training but not for an entire test. You need more gears to get better scores.

https://fb.watch/7W961vmiBn/

Same horse

https://fb.watch/7W9d2KCRdQ/

We all have seen those big ground covering one time changes that get such high scores. Very different than the SRS long rein demo. I can appreciate both

[Tanga]

Oh man. I keep responding and then forgetting to click submit on the post. I guess my first post didn't understand chisamba. I wasn't taking anything as an insult, but it is???

I did a couple of riding seminars with Anders Lindgren! He has great exercises. But he was pretty old and grumpy by the second one.

I don't understand comparing SRS to competitive dressage. They're not the same thing. It's all fine, but those tempi changes lack throughness and straightness. The horse starts really coming together behind. And if that is "classical" and "classical" dressage is all about not getting behind the vertical and low in the poll, that horse is in a snaffle and light contact. It is a good demonstration about how horses can "rolkur" themselves.

But, it's an exercise. It's all good. If you want to work on more on the spot, cool. It's not where you would want to be in the ring. I have done those pretty on the spot one tempis (before I figured things out and she got stronger) and I got beaned by everyone. But, at the time, 15 one tempis in 15 feet was what I could do.

Good video, khall. Exactly the point. And, yes, where the "collected" gaits are in competitive dressage now is way more forward. It's what used to be medium. It may be a bit too forward sometimes, but in general I think it's better.

[Ryeissa]

what about Blob? How about the horses like mine and hers that are starting collected canter? Not finished SRS or GP horses?

[Ponichiwa]

Not sure I fully understand the canter issue, but this is the Internet and when has lack of knowledge stopped anybody from opining? Strap in, and here we go.

If the shoulders are really coming up, it's possible that the hind end is getting left behind. Inversely, it's possible that the hind is too far under for the current level of balance/strength.

For the first issue, consider trying exercises like:
- Walk pirouette to canter pirouette to walk pirouette. Repeat 2-3x and then reward and get out of there. Helps shorten the "wheelbase" between inside hind and outside shoulder, and has the benefits of starting the sitting and turning in the walk, where those things are typically more achievable, and then allowing the horse to connect the dots in the canter.
- Quick walk/canter/walk transitions with no more than 4 strides of each. Best executed in SI positioning, but you can put them on circles or serpentines or wherever you feel gets at the shoulder that's escaping and the hind that's lagging.
- Square: quarter turn on the haunches in walk, trot out of it, repeat. Sharpens hind end engagement but keeps the shoulders respectful of the outside aids.

For the second issue, diagnose where the break in connection is occurring.
If at the base of the neck (neck is high, brisket is low):
- Consciously vary the tempo at the canter. Explore where the connection starts to fray-- very slow or very quick?-- and wherever that is, spend some time there in a variety of take-care-of-your-own-balance positions (SI, HI, etc.).
- Canter 'zig zag' half pass 3 steps, straight (SI) 3 steps, leg yield 3 steps. Keeps the hind end jumping underneath but crucially keeps you in motion and not stuck on the spot.

This has gotten kind of long. There are other exercises that can help connect the rear and the shoulders, or make sure both shoulders are equally loaded, or improve straightness, but you get the general idea.

[blob]

I think I agree with all of the above. I agree that the SRS canter is likely not what I want to ride my whole test in for the show ring. But I also agree that there is value in the exercise and I do think I want to feel the adjustability that i CAN get that kind of canter when/if I were to need it. And the answer might be 'you won't really need it often' but it's about fine tuning the dial so that I have more options.

Ponchiwa--thanks for the exercises. I think I oscillate between the two issues actually. So having a bunch of tools/options will be helpful!

[Moutaineer]

I think we also need to remember that collected work requires a significant amount of strength that needs to be built carefully over time.

It's always that delicate balance between moving forward in the training and moving forward in the physical development!

[piedmontfields]

An interesting thread and good suggestions for exercises!

Per Blob: " The issue is truly that I don't have a true collected canter that is under my control. I can canter close to on the spot for a few strides, so the ability to come forward and back is there. but I do not have the adjustability to close up the stride to that degree and maintain."

I do get this, although I kind of have the reverse (tons of control of shoulders and hinds at collected canter, less control extended). I especially like Ponichiwa's list of exercises, but also totally appreciate Chisamba's (which is similar to my education and training approach---hence hearing something else probably struck me!).

p.s. Emi is still pretty weak for this work, but for fun we collected canter behind a good walk and a slow trot the other day. It is actually helpful to have that outside view for reference! As in ride behind another (trained) horse.

[Chisamba]

Chisamba would you go through an entire test in that highly collected canter? I definitely see the benefits of using this canter for training but not for an entire test. You need more gears to get better scores.

https://fb.watch/7W961vmiBn/

Same horse

https://fb.watch/7W9d2KCRdQ/

We all have seen those big ground covering one time changes that get such high scores. Very different than the SRS long rein demo. I can appreciate both

nope. I probably never show in a true collected canter, probably never have and probably never will. I feel fairly certain, but I am too tired to.look, that every time I mentioned it I said something to the effect of " this is for training".

I also.posted the video to show that tempi can be done at walk speed.

the current show ring " collected" trot is a kind of half passage and the collected canter is a half medium canter. just my perception, except people are actually beginning to talk about show trot and show canter. and honestly some of the horses move like they have weighted shoes.

[khall]

Chisamba I guess I don’t understand why you were saying we were boo birds booing. I think we all agree that training in that extreme collection or school
canter is an appropriate tool. I just agreed with tanga that more gears in the canter are needed when showing.

I’m trying to figure out exactly what MM is doing if she gets big up front but can drop behind and curl in the collection. And not being maneuverable in the shoulders and hips/loin. Blob I would think she’s losing that push from the hind legs? Not staying totally connected? Sounds like a strength issue.

Anyway good discussion on canter strategies

[Ryeissa]

Chisamba would you go through an entire test in that highly collected canter? I definitely see the benefits of using this canter for training but not for an entire test. You need more gears to get better scores.

https://fb.watch/7W961vmiBn/

Same horse

https://fb.watch/7W9d2KCRdQ/

We all have seen those big ground covering one time changes that get such high scores. Very different than the SRS long rein demo. I can appreciate both

nope. I probably never show in a true collected canter, probably never have and probably never will. I feel fairly certain, but I am too tired to.look, that every time I mentioned it I said something to the effect of " this is for training".

I also.posted the video to show that tempi can be done at walk speed.

the current show ring " collected" trot is a kind of half passage and the collected canter is a half medium canter. just my perception, except people are actually beginning to talk about show trot and show canter. and honestly some of the horses move like they have weighted shoes.

what people?
what horses? all levels?
I'm getting a bit lost in your posts this week....sorry.

[Flight]

I agree with Chisamba, that competition trot and canter isn't collected anymore. It's the 'second trot' thing which I was taught, by one of our top riders is to add passage to your trot and them make it as big as you can! So it's really like a high medium trot. Same with half passes. They are meant to be done in collected trot, but being taught to ride them in medium. Canter is the same, get the jump as much as you can and then ride it as impulsive as you can. My horses just can't do it, and I hate the angst of trying to make them. The flexible warmbloods can do it better. Maybe not biomechanically correct but it's what the judges like.

[Chisamba]

Show trot also = second trot. There was a second trot thread on thus forum. you participated in it.

I haven't heard it called second canter, just show canter.

every level that expects collection. I see 4 and 5 year old horses passaging around the arena. sorry second trotting aka show trotting.

[khall]

This was way before the show trot was ever talked about but these are ground covering big changes

https://youtu.be/UbLXpW5-DG0

You certainly would not be walking next to them.

The 15 ones is a long diagnol. You really need to take up a good portion of the diagnol for it to look best. But this is showing different fromSRS

[Ryeissa]

Show trot also = second trot. There was a second trot thread on thus forum. you participated in it.

I haven't heard it called second canter, just show canter.

every level that expects collection. I see 4 and 5 year old horses passaging around the arena. sorry second trotting aka show trotting.

ok. thanks.

[demi]

Enjoying this thread, too!