staying slow in the medium trot

[blob]

I know we've had a lot of discussion in here around lengthening the trot. We've talked about the airplane analogy and doing lots of forward and back transitions as to not over do it.

I've found that training a proper medium or extended trot is a real weakness of mine. Yes I can get get length of stride and yes I can get lift and power, but I also get speed.

When I ride a horse who knows his/her job I can ride an extended trot that doesn't get quick. But I can't seem to teach it. Thoughts/tips/ideas?

[Ponichiwa]

I have a similar issue with my guy. I get too greedy for the stride length and end up paying for it with quicker tempo and the net benefit is bupkis: still stays more forehand-heavy or best case neutral vs. uphill balance.

What works:
- Very short pieces of medium, transitioning back to collected (or very collected/towards half-steps) the stride before the tempo would have gotten quick. This is, as you might imagine, a moving target.

- Medium to LY: start down a diagonal in medium trot. Before things get rushed, and this may be as early as the first quarterline, begin leg-yield but keeping the same stride length. You will end up swinging the haunches more than the shoulders by dint of the exercise (want to LY parallel to the wall, so you have to halt the shoulders and move the haunches), which helps re-install that step-under-but-don't-run message.

- Half-pirouette in the walk to medium to half-pirouette in walk. Key to this being successful is a very active marching walk in the TOH/pirouette, and very few walk steps between actively turning and medium trot (and vice versa). I like this one because you can choose to do as much or as little medium trot as makes sense for you and your horse at that moment.

In all: posting may or may not help your horse keep the tempo and balance. Some horses thrive with more external/obvious tempo regulation; some just dump all the energy on the forehand anyway. And some I've found do well with alternating posting: 2 strides L, change, 2 strides R, change, etc.

[khall]

I think it depends on what is causing the quickening. If you are having to manufacture the medium trot and the horse is not offering it do shorter mediums with emphasis on building the collection and power. I like the toh to medium or SI to medium across short diagonal or half steps to medium

For those like Gaila who overpower in the mediums:

SI on 20 m circle straighten on circle medium and back to SI. The circle helps maintain the balance a bit. Cedar had me just think a bit slower with my seat to control the medium a bit. But Gaila as I said on the power thread has found her mojo and turns it on in the medium. Much much easier to steady them up in the power than to have to manufacture it like I did with Rip. Gaila just wants to keep on doing medium trot! Gets strong in the hand and goes

I can also sit her mediums pretty easily Rip not so much!

[mari]

Oh gosh do I ever need this thread... Nothing useful to add, but I'm hoping for loads of advice too

[exvet]

I have a similar issue with my guy. I get too greedy for the stride length and end up paying for it with quicker tempo and the net benefit is bupkis: still stays more forehand-heavy or best case neutral vs. uphill balance.

What works:
- Very short pieces of medium, transitioning back to collected (or very collected/towards half-steps) the stride before the tempo would have gotten quick. This is, as you might imagine, a moving target.

- Medium to LY: start down a diagonal in medium trot. Before things get rushed, and this may be as early as the first quarterline, begin leg-yield but keeping the same stride length. You will end up swinging the haunches more than the shoulders by dint of the exercise (want to LY parallel to the wall, so you have to halt the shoulders and move the haunches), which helps re-install that step-under-but-don't-run message.

- Half-pirouette in the walk to medium to half-pirouette in walk. Key to this being successful is a very active marching walk in the TOH/pirouette, and very few walk steps between actively turning and medium trot (and vice versa). I like this one because you can choose to do as much or as little medium trot as makes sense for you and your horse at that moment.

In all: posting may or may not help your horse keep the tempo and balance. Some horses thrive with more external/obvious tempo regulation; some just dump all the energy on the forehand anyway. And some I've found do well with alternating posting: 2 strides L, change, 2 strides R, change, etc.

THIS and I will add that going from LY to medium trot also can help. I will LY to medium to LY sometimes to keep the tempo and the maneuverability in the shoulders which helps keep them up and in reality what I'm doing is also building strength in the hind end. I've mentioned before that this is one movement that I can train/teach and it does require that you DON"T let them run. The minute the tempo gets too quick I do something else even if it's come down to the walk immediately but preferably I'll go to very collected trot and ask for LY or half pass or SI - something that requires more carry and stay lifted in the front but anything other than running at the trot.

[Ryeissa]

My biggest takeaway after struggling: Half halt every 3 strides.

Some horses just never get a good lengthening and do much better when they start mediums (strangely this is my horse).

Ultimately it all depends on what your position is doing/not doing and your horses' balance- that seems simplistic but it's not a one size fits all answer.

[Chisamba]

I do shoulder in because of my belief that leg yield loads the front end, so start and finish with shoulder in. definitely change which shoulder you ride in. do S I in medium trot, go straight 2 or 3 strides in medium, do SI in collected. really sit. go straight for a few strides, SI to medium, .as soon as running happens, load the hind end. really really sit the horse down, then ask for the medium. it helps if you really know what a medium trot feels like.

[Ponichiwa]

I do shoulder in because of my belief that leg yield loads the front end, so start and finish with shoulder in. definitely change which shoulder you ride in. do S I in medium trot, go straight 2 or 3 strides in medium, do SI in collected. really sit. go straight for a few strides, SI to medium, .as soon as running happens, load the hind end. really really sit the horse down, then ask for the medium. it helps if you really know what a medium trot feels like.

I think we're on the same page. What I will say is (as everything) not all LY is created equal in how successfully it engages the hind. The old masters that didn't believe in LY as a gymnasticizing exercise also loved "plie", which is just a LY in SI positioning.

LY in medium gaits also helps link the concepts of really reaching with the shoulders, which my relatively shoulder-limited little dude needs. He can sit all day but still needs to work on extending that stride out from the elbow.

[exvet]

I do shoulder in because of my belief that leg yield loads the front end, so start and finish with shoulder in. definitely change which shoulder you ride in. do S I in medium trot, go straight 2 or 3 strides in medium, do SI in collected. really sit. go straight for a few strides, SI to medium, .as soon as running happens, load the hind end. really really sit the horse down, then ask for the medium. it helps if you really know what a medium trot feels like.

I think we're on the same page. What I will say is (as everything) not all LY is created equal in how successfully it engages the hind. The old masters that didn't believe in LY as a gymnasticizing exercise also loved "plie", which is just a LY in SI positioning.

LY in medium gaits also helps link the concepts of really reaching with the shoulders, which my relatively shoulder-limited little dude needs. He can sit all day but still needs to work on extending that stride out from the elbow.[/quote]


I am going to chime in again and say that this is how I view leg yield as well - there are gradations. I bolded the part that I found was most effective on a 13 hand welsh pony of cob type, aka stinker pony. I also had Axel Steiner have me do this with Monty who actually had fantastic medium paces (and at 23 still does) but could get 'balled' up and on the muscle. We would go back and forth between leg yield, SI, etc to free up his front end. I also would use the old Walter Zettl should-in entwickeln exercise to achieve the same...........I always found the key was/is to have the horse VERY forward and working (powering) into both reins equally ....... something that has become more challenging for me to achieve as a rider; but, when I succeed it's very useful for the brick shit house conformation types......

[Ponichiwa]

I should have caveated that my posts above are specific to the type of horse that Queso is: absolutely the bestest boy without question, but also somewhat limited in his shoulder mobility with a (slightly) downhill build.

I have a horse (now retired) who has an extravagant front-end. Exercises to improve her mediums were more along the lines of: SI to medium on a short diagonal, finishing in SI (rinse, repeat); half-steps to medium to half-steps; medium to stretchy trot to medium without changing tempo (she could get a bit tense); etc. Same problem (rushing in the mediums), different solutions.

[blob]

I should have caveated that my posts above are specific to the type of horse that Queso is: absolutely the bestest boy without question, but also somewhat limited in his shoulder mobility with a (slightly) downhill build.

MM also does not have a ton of shoulder mobility. She has an active hind end, she does not have a lot of shoulder lift.

I can do the lateral work to medium all day long and it improves the lateral work more than it improves the medium.

[khall]

Blob I would teach her passage to help with medium trot. Spanish walk helps as well. Now Cedar does have me push the trot in SI so they reach better in the outside shoulder.

I struggled with Rip to build the power. What helped him was long lines out in the field ( though occasionally he also would get naughty!) the longer the line or up a slight rise the better

[tlkidding]

I should have caveated that my posts above are specific to the type of horse that Queso is: absolutely the bestest boy without question, but also somewhat limited in his shoulder mobility with a (slightly) downhill build.

MM also does not have a ton of shoulder mobility. She has an active hind end, she does not have a lot of shoulder lift.

I can do the lateral work to medium all day long and it improves the lateral work more than it improves the medium.

"Long trotting" up hill with a QH friend who had quite the fast trot helped my horse figure out how to rotate the scapula more and continue pushing from behind without pushing over the front legs. We have a nice long, not too steep hill and could just trot straight trying to keep up with the QH.

Doing a little bit of Spanish walk training and starting the passage/creating a passag-y trot really slowed down the extended trot for us. Going from a highly cadenced/bouncy trot to extended improved the tempo. At the beginning, we'd only get like 3 steps of good extended trot that felt like an airplane taking off before the balance flattened and we'd start speeding up. I also would put a big HH over X to completely rebalance for a step. Eventually you do a few steps, an imperceptible HH, few more steps, HH, etc. all the way across the diagonal.

[Tanga]

tkidding God advice. I've been too lazy to type anything out, but I do both of those.

I sort of taught Spanish walk to "up," so when I am riding I can say "up" and/or tap the shoulder and get that. When I ask for the med/ext. I do that so they think slower and up, not speedy. It has helped.

[blob]

I wish i had more access to hills I think it would help a lot!

re: passage and spanish walk: we have taught MM some passage and that has helped with cadence. I've been working to teach spanish walk on the ground but I can't really get her to strike out yet. She will lift her leg on cue, but it's more like lifting it to have her hoof picked--it's obedient but not quite what i'm looking for. We will keep working.

[Ponichiwa]

I wish i had more access to hills I think it would help a lot!

Same!! Unfortunately, I live in a very flat area-- pretty sure there's only 40something ft of elevation change (ignoring freeways) over 45+ mi. Really didn't think that move through re: the implications on my dressage goals!

[khall]

Blob Gaila took a bit to figure out how to reach with the Spanish walk. Two things worked. When tapping the foreleg for the lift lure the leg out with the whip so they have something to reach for or tap behind the leg as they lift up to encourage the lift. Mark would also ask the horse to step forward as they lifted to get the reach. Also works if they want to paw instead of Spanish walk.

The big thing that helped Gaila figure out medium trot with Cedar was to flick the reins at her so she opens that throat latch and pokes her nose out a bit. She also let the front legs fly better on the downhill. My arena has a 2% grade with a discernible slant end to end for drainage. Going down the grade helped Gaila to reach more with her front legs

[Chisamba]

If you bear with me for a moment and think of the horse as a train with three coaches . the neck is the supple whippy thing, let's inappropriately call it the steering coach the hind end is the engine, but between the two is the passenger car. ( yes, I know I am too metaphorical. ) so the passenger car can sadly be unevenly weighted , / rider balance, carry a moving load/ rider balance , painful / saddle fit , restricted/ girth fit or simply feel like it's carried sideways due to the engine power or hind end. so in the world of straightness, connection and gait expression the vast majority of discussion in training addresses the hind to front , or front to hind connection without individually addressing the middle. there is good reason for this because if you fix both ends the.middle, being connected to both, is also aligned.

having said all that, the shoulder is anatomically the most adjustable part of the horse.

so the question to ask yourself is, if I have the right energy. I have the hind end working. I do not want to change the shape of neck or placement of poll or jaw, if the only thing I want to change is the shoulder, how do I do that. right there, in that moment, mid stride. if you add leg, you change the engine. if you add rein, you change the steering, can you influence the middle coach without changing everything? should you be able to influence the ," middle coach " without changing everything.

some trainers say absolutely not. you should never attempt to influence only the middle. you should ride the hind to the front to achieve straightness.

some trainers say you can do it by work in hand . so you get off. take 6 months to 2vyears to teach a good Spanish walk or whatever. does that actually help you in that one moment where you would like to adjust the base of the neck and shoulder?

of course the much much talked about inside leg to outside rein is the common answer. even my earlier advice of S I to S I is accentuating inside leg to outside rein, as is leg yield, as is entwikkeling. of ten does. as Blib said, improve the lateral work but not the medium.

So my suggestion is whatever aid you use to influence only the shoulders, really accentuate the acceptance of that aid. your medium will improve when you can directly influence shoulder positioning and base of the neck elevation. not poll elevation, base if the neck. most horses that get quick push their chest forward sometimes even forward and down. like a sprinter leaning for the finish line.

whatever aids you use to influence the base of the neck, go to that.

it helps to sing " it's all about Dat bass, about that bass, no treble" while you do. because, you know, tempo helps. lol

[mari]

So my suggestion is whatever aid you use to influence only the shoulders, really accentuate the acceptance of that aid. your medium will improve when you can directly influence shoulder positioning and base of the neck elevation. not poll elevation, base if the neck. most horses that get quick push their chest forward sometimes even forward and down. like a sprinter leaning for the finish line.

whatever aids you use to influence the base of the neck, go to that.

it helps to sing " it's all about Dat bass, about that bass, no treble" while you do. because, you know, tempo helps. lol

I really like this part of your post. Odin tends to lean (like a sprinter) and get quick. Leaning is his very very most favourite thing to do, so it's his most natural go-to. I find that a REALLY sitting SI to medium a few steps back to SITTING SI works, but after a repetition or two it is a giant fight to get that second SI.

So what we've also been practicing is collected SI to a few lengthened steps in SI back to collection. My instructor jogs next to us with the whip so she can touch the hocks when needed. But on days where he is really strong, a LY really helps to mobilise the engine in a way that doesn't just spill out the front end.

[blob]

Controlling the shoulder is a weak point in my work with MM. I mean there are many weak points--I remain a constant work in progress. But when her shoulder gets expressive in the canter---I don't have control over it, it does what it wants (see my post about collected canter). In the trot, I can get more suspension in a baby passage and I can get a bigger length of stride through the hind end. I cannot (not even really for a stride or two) get her to keep that power behind and then also get the shoulder to open up.

In the trot, some of this is a bit related to her way of going--in the field, I never see her open up her shoulder really in the trot (in the canter she can and will). But she has the the ability for the range of motion--it's just not something that comes naturally to her.

In both my horses I have come to realize that my focus on the hind end often means that I don't make sure that the shoulder is supple. RP sounds this alarm quicker (if he gets tight in the shoulder, he will get head tossy and behind the leg), he's also easier to fix the problem on. MM is both tolerant of my mistakes and also gets a bit stuck in 'this is how we go' and it's much harder to break up the pattern.

[exvet]

Control of the base of the neck is the key to unlocking the mystery and freeing up the flow of energy in a way that is desirable for dressage especially for those of us with 'coach-bred or very baroque-type' of horses. I can empathize with Blob's conundrum because so much of it sounds like (though in some ways the opposite swing of the pendulum for Junior) what I believe are simply strength and balance issues for Junior and myself (and very possibly MM). The problem is that Junior's just way too strong for me in many ways so I have to find other ways to address the issue or have the light bulb go off so to speak. It's easier for me to lengthen and slow the trot strides with Junior as compared to some of his predecessors because he seems to be more 'on my seat' when it comes to tempo in the TROT. I certainly don't want to lose this........but he does resort to using his chest and bottom of his neck for balance at the canter. Then when I really collect the canter he will start to climb or simply quit. I have managed to get him to understand that he must go forward even if I take more feel of the right rein and if I put leg on the stride is to get longer, not quicker......it's just building up his ability to carry himself in that way (he doesn't like it though). I am finding that lunging him with just the outside side rein on is helping with the concept of accepting the outside rein whichever that may be and moving forward if whip/leg/seat is applied..............while this is a thread about slowing the trot but keeping the longer stride of the medium gait.....this is an issue that at least I am having with the canter. I guess my point is that while all horses are born with their innate talents, it's still the darn building blocks and foundational pieces of dressage (or the holes in those pieces) that keeps us from 'nailing' it. I will also add though it may not seem pertinent to this topic but for me it is - Junior's walk is improving along with his canter. I had some recommend that I teach Brandon how to balance and carry himself in the walk.......I've taken that advice and have been applying it to Junior as well. This has really helped me try to train adjustability to the aids and thus get some more elasticity within Junior's gaits. I'm finding that if I can unlock the base of his neck, I can get through his back and as long as I don't lose the straightness I can channel the power that's coming through and RATE it. This is what gives me true medium, collected and extended gaits.

[Flight]

I'm playing with medium out of/with a passage trot with my little friesian cross. I should add some vid but it looks pretty messy, might send some privately! He's getting the lift (and that through the base of the neck which is important) but then it's a weird fake looking lengthening.
He doesn't have a hugely active hind leg, so maybe that's whats making it look strange.

[tlkidding]

blob, can you get the baby passage and then hold the bounce and add leg and get like 2-3 strides of a "huge" passage?

Also, don't get too hung up on the speed of the medium - we always definitely sped up but still got 7s for them at Third+, with a horse that's a 7-7.5 in gaits generally. Really I think the judges just want to see a big, bouncy trot without the rider holding back. Do you let the frame lengthen in the medium - the poll can lower a bit even and still receive a good score.

After seeing you mention the canter challenges again, I really wonder if you could find some "hills," even if you have to trailer somewhere. Trotting big up the hill into your hand and cantering down the hill may help show MM how to use her shoulders differently without you having to create it all.

I'm lucky to have a great hay field with gently rolling hills I'm comfortable trotting and cantering in addition to the long big hill. On the long hill, I could get my horse to open his trot and keep it going and then start pushing on my hand for a bit of help. In the rolling hills, we could open the trot or canter and push on the hand, then HH and collect over the top and sit and hold going down, which would set us up to push and open up again going up the next hill. They are maybe 10 strides up and 10 strides down with no flat part. And they are not steep - I cannot stomach cantering down a hill steep enough to change the balance of the horse to actually feel downhill.

[piedmontfields]

Wow, this is such a smart thread. Thank you all!

I'm of the shoulder-in is the entrance into medium out of medium and in between crowd, but it is totally due to the horse I ride I find that if I think about shoulder control/shoulder management, I've dealt with the base of the neck....

[blob]

blob, can you get the baby passage and then hold the bounce and add leg and get like 2-3 strides of a "huge" passage?

Also, don't get too hung up on the speed of the medium - we always definitely sped up but still got 7s for them at Third+, with a horse that's a 7-7.5 in gaits generally. Really I think the judges just want to see a big, bouncy trot without the rider holding back. Do you let the frame lengthen in the medium - the poll can lower a bit even and still receive a good score.

After seeing you mention the canter challenges again, I really wonder if you could find some "hills," even if you have to trailer somewhere. Trotting big up the hill into your hand and cantering down the hill may help show MM how to use her shoulders differently without you having to create it all.

I'm lucky to have a great hay field with gently rolling hills I'm comfortable trotting and cantering in addition to the long big hill. On the long hill, I could get my horse to open his trot and keep it going and then start pushing on my hand for a bit of help. In the rolling hills, we could open the trot or canter and push on the hand, then HH and collect over the top and sit and hold going down, which would set us up to push and open up again going up the next hill. They are maybe 10 strides up and 10 strides down with no flat part. And they are not steep - I cannot stomach cantering down a hill steep enough to change the balance of the horse to actually feel downhill.

no, that's the issue is that I can either get baby passage or I can get length of stride. If i could get even 1 or 2 strides of big passage then I could build on it slowly. But alas it is a trade off right now.

My comments on tests are almost always that she gets too quick and sometimes that she's not up enough (so I am actively trying not to let her frame lengthen too much), so I do think speed is holding us back. Not that it's entirely dependent on tempo. I think if we got more suspension, the quickness would be more forgiveable.

Hills are hard because not only do we not have them, I also don't have a trailer atm. So i can get ot them on rare occasion when someone else wants to go trail ride and I can catch a ride, but it's not something I can count on sadly.

[blob]

Wow, this is such a smart thread. Thank you all!

I'm of the shoulder-in is the entrance into medium out of medium and in between crowd, but it is totally due to the horse I ride I find that if I think about shoulder control/shoulder management, I've dealt with the base of the neck....

Agree, a very smart thread--thank you everyone!

The SI strategy is one that will likely work with RP--but it's just not the ticket for MM, not where we are now. I think if she was trying to run with me that would help. Butt it's more that i am having to chase her.

[Anne]

I'll throw this out there, though I'm not at the point of training medium gaits, and don't know if it might work or not : have you tried poles? obviously with correct spacing for MM's stride length at medium trot. I'm thinking of some solid (fence-post sized?) poles might help her get the lift, but stay a bit slower, in that she might have to think just a bit about placing her feet. Like I said, just an 'out there' idea, to add to the many far more experienced voices posting here!

[Chisamba]

I'll throw this out there, though I'm not at the point of training medium gaits, and don't know if it might work or not : have you tried poles? obviously with correct spacing for MM's stride length at medium trot. I'm thinking of some solid (fence-post sized?) poles might help her get the lift, but stay a bit slower, in that she might have to think just a bit about placing her feet. Like I said, just an 'out there' idea, to add to the many far more experienced voices posting here!

it is interesting, Ann because the first time I had a horse come up the levels that did not have flashy gaits everyone recommended poles and raised cavaletti to improve gaits but never in my whole life could I get the horse to understand to carry that scope over once the poles were no longer in front of it. same applies to trotting in long grass, trotting in water on the beach etc. excellent exercises to gain strength and supple but I, for one could never get the horse to use itself the same way . it took the training and aids to do that.

[blob]

I've had the same experience as Chisamba with poles! I use them a lot. MM likes them, I like them. I'll keep doing them they definitely have benefit. But they don't seem to translate. I'll also say that while poles help with suspension, they do make her go up and down more then up and out in front

[khall]

Blob the only thing that worked with Rip who was the same as in I had to manufacture the energy was long straight lines in a big field. The slight incline helped too.

I’ve seen another exercise to teach the horse to open up their stride used by a trainer I worked with for a bit named Kenneth Dyrby he had the rider round the corners in the arena and just push the horse keep pushing until the horse just lets loose a bit and lengthens the stride. This is where asking for the nose to poke out a bit helps as well

[blob]

I’ve seen another exercise to teach the horse to open up their stride used by a trainer I worked with for a bit named Kenneth Dyrby he had the rider round the corners in the arena and just push the horse keep pushing until the horse just lets loose a bit and lengthens the stride. This is where asking for the nose to poke out a bit helps as well

Yes, this is what we do and we do get a true lengthening of the stride, the problem is that it's also quick!

[khall]

Blob do you post it and try to help slow and lengthen the stride with your posting?

[lorilu]

I do shoulder in because of my belief that leg yield loads the front end, so start and finish with shoulder in. definitely change which shoulder you ride in. do S I in medium trot, go straight 2 or 3 strides in medium, do SI in collected. really sit. go straight for a few strides, SI to medium, .as soon as running happens, load the hind end. really really sit the horse down, then ask for the medium. it helps if you really know what a medium trot feels like.

When you say "go straight 2 or 3 strides" do you mean straighten and go along the long side, or follow the shoulder in angle and go a bit across a diagonal?

[Chisamba]

I usually follow the shoulder in angle and go a few strides across the diagonal.

[chantal]

I should have read this thread before I posted my goals, great info here! Interestingly I'm working on med trot with Sylvester and poles with Bear. Sylvester speeds up and drops in the base of his neck and goes a bit on the forehead, so lots of suggestions here to help with that. Bear's go-to is: he does not like to stay forward over poles, throws his head up and drops the base of his neck over poles. If I keep the base of his neck up by keeping him forward, slowing his front end, and feeling both sides of his mouth, he is delightful. We do a set of poles on a 20m circle for him but finally got the diagonal lines as well. If I forget anything he reverts to his go-to. I'll also leg yield him in the turns. Sylvester had a bad pasture injury to his shoulder and doesn't jump any more, he was an eventer in a previous life. I will trot him over single poles and leg yield in turns. I'll have to see what his owner thinks about adding pole work in.

Wind up the spring and then follow is one of my new mantras. Granted, it's a lot more complicated than that. I've been pushing horses for too long. I'm too old and too weak to push them now