Dig out the winter gear and finish strong: November/December Goals and Progress

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demi
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Re: Dig out the winter gear and finish strong: November/December Goals and Progress

Postby demi » Wed Dec 01, 2021 3:11 am

Big difference Chisamba. He looks really good. Definitely filling out the muscling in the front, and the “loin to groin” also has more depth. I can’t remember exactly but I think Deb Bennet wrote about the loin to groin depth and that it is a real sign of good work.

I also just love how his coat has bloomed! Those dapples are beautiful. Good work!

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Re: Dig out the winter gear and finish strong: November/December Goals and Progress

Postby Kyras_Mom » Wed Dec 01, 2021 5:28 am

Chisamba, Caliburn looks great and yes, I would say his topline is much improved.

I want to work on that with Kyra. She has those funky camel hump withers then kind of a dippy back. She needs to develop a 'rounder' muscle over the loin. At this new barn she is on alfalfa. I was kind of hesitant but I will say, I think she looks better over the topline...not as angular and choppy. She also isn't nearly starving all the time. She got plenty of hay at the other barn but it never failed that between feedings she was hungry and was literally dragging me everywhere to try and get a bite in. She isn't doing that on the alfalfa. I do take her a pan of about 1 lb of timothy pellets to eat while I tack up but the alfalfa seems to keep her better satisfied.

Of course, regular work is what makes the muscle and this week has been hit and miss. One of my cats has been sick and ended up at the ER vet for 48hrs. :? :P $$$$$. Finally getting Mom's foot healed up. It is always something :lol: .

I did get in a ride tonight. She was a little tense since I didn't make it up there yesterday but was quite supple and gave me a nice ride. If I could ever get my back, SI and hip straightened out, I would like to do more canter work so that maybe we could entertain doing some FC work in the spring. I did get some canter in today and my back tolerated it although I all of a sudden have the sliding off to the left thing going again. Not badly but something I need to get straightened out before we try working on collecting exercises. For myself, for Christmas (before cat burned up my CC), I got a pair of Acavallo safety stirrups. They are so nice and I really like the wide tread. The new stable is really in what we call the foothills...still pretty 'natural' and deer abound. One of these days, especially in the winter, we are going to meet some. I want as many safety measures in effect just in case :D .

Susan

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Re: Dig out the winter gear and finish strong: November/December Goals and Progress

Postby Sue B » Wed Dec 01, 2021 5:20 pm

So just to prove my problem with fc's is just that--MY problem; galloping Rudy down a farm road the other day I thought "Gee, maybe I should have him change leads now" and poof, flying change! What the he**, why can't I do that in the arena????? :oops:

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Re: Dig out the winter gear and finish strong: November/December Goals and Progress

Postby demi » Wed Dec 01, 2021 7:24 pm

SueB, ok, after your rodeo bucking episode on Tio and now the galloping down the road fc’s on Rudy, here’s a thought: beneath that cultured, dressage riding, French horn playing exterior of yours, is an old fashioned cow girl! You really like to whoop and holler and your horses know it. They’re probably saying, “let’s get this out of her system first, and then she can focus on the dressage” :lol:

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Re: Dig out the winter gear and finish strong: November/December Goals and Progress

Postby Ponichiwa » Wed Dec 01, 2021 7:24 pm

Sue B wrote:So just to prove my problem with fc's is just that--MY problem; galloping Rudy down a farm road the other day I thought "Gee, maybe I should have him change leads now" and poof, flying change! What the he**, why can't I do that in the arena????? :oops:


Sue, I feel your pain. The only thing to fear is fear itself... and the only thing blocking my horses from clean changes is apparently me. Isn't that just the breaks.

Less facetiously-- there has to be a ton of jump in the hind legs for big clean straight changes. Easier to get that out of an arena if you can get a big long straightaway and a head of steam, for sure, but there's hope for bringing that energy into the little white fences too. I think there's a ton of training value in getting that feel for the work you want regardless of where you can get it, and then you'll have a better chance of replication in the sandbox later.

Next time you're galloping it out, just spend some conscious thought on how you're getting the nice clean change (where your body is, how his canter was feeling) and keep that image and muscle memory for your next arena workout.

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Re: Dig out the winter gear and finish strong: November/December Goals and Progress

Postby Sue B » Wed Dec 01, 2021 11:01 pm

SueB, ok, after your rodeo bucking episode on Tio and now the galloping down the road fc’s on Rudy, here’s a thought: beneath that cultured, dressage riding, French horn playing exterior of yours, is an old fashioned cow girl! You really like to whoop and holler and your horses know it. They’re probably saying, “let’s get this out of her system first, and then she can focus on the dressage” :lol:


I admit, somewhere deep inside this 60 year old body is a teenage girl screaming to get out! :lol: :lol: :lol:

Less facetiously-- there has to be a ton of jump in the hind legs for big clean straight changes. Easier to get that out of an arena if you can get a big long straightaway and a head of steam, for sure, but there's hope for bringing that energy into the little white fences too. I think there's a ton of training value in getting that feel for the work you want regardless of where you can get it, and then you'll have a better chance of replication in the sandbox later.

Next time you're galloping it out, just spend some conscious thought on how you're getting the nice clean change (where your body is, how his canter was feeling) and keep that image and muscle memory for your next arena workout.


It was a truly powerful fc, btw. I know that Rudy and I are over-thinking it in the arena. When he was still green he used to pop fc's all the time, his fav was going from cc to cc as I changed directions. Never once told him that wasn't what I wanted (I wanted to just go back to true canter but he was positive that once we were in a cc we should stay in cc!) but eventually he figured out he was making the exercise way harder than it needed to be. Very sensitive, type A personality stuck with an inaccurate klutz for a trainer. :P Thank you for your words of encouragement, Ponichiwa.

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Re: Dig out the winter gear and finish strong: November/December Goals and Progress

Postby khall » Wed Dec 01, 2021 11:38 pm

Well our weather in Georgia is being very unwinter like with temps into the 70’s this week. My poor hairy Rip! May have to do a bib clip and turn fans on to keep him from sweating. Btw his last scope was better. Still doubtful I’ll ride him again but I may play around with him at least in hand if not at liberty

My rides on Joplin as always are just a blast! I did scare deer out in the hay field one day and had a good spook from all the crashing in the trees next to the field. Thankfully though Joplin takes you with her when she spooks:). Today though no deer and was playing a bit of lateral work. Did the stair step exercise SI to HP to SI. Really nice exercise for her going left. Nice to have long straight lines to work it ( it’s a 10 acre flat field) The first time I’ve done that exercise with her. Such a ballerina!

The lessons with Cedar helped us firm up our piaffe in hand. Cedar had me setting the boundaries for Joplin (she wants to bounce around when adding energy) just that bit of boundaries helped Joplin to understand put the energy into piaffe not bouncing. Now we have easy steps of active piaffe:):). Will have to get some video to share. Canter is still coming along. It is all me (common theme this thread) and when I get it right there she is. So I’ll keep plugging away at my girls (Gaila is getting some time out on the WE course too in the hay field) having fun and enjoying the Georgia weather.

Jingles for me next week though. Mom has to have a tooth out. She has major anxiety about it and it’s difficult to explain to her with her dementia. She has a narrative she’s concocted in her mind that it should not come out. Sigh. Being the parent to your parent is no fun

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Re: Dig out the winter gear and finish strong: November/December Goals and Progress

Postby Srhorselady » Thu Dec 02, 2021 12:51 am

Minor YaHoo to add to the others on this thread…My pandemic pony, Gwen cantered under saddle for the first time today! (Not with me in the saddle. At 71 I don’t ride greenies :D ). Gwen is the half Welsh, 1/4 Dutch, 1/4 thoroughbred pony I got a year ago as a pandemic project. At eight years old (and not very pretty) we were able to halter and load her on a trailer. Now 15 months later she has great ground manners, a wonderful temperament, walks, trots, and now canters under saddle. Two different riders have been on her and I’m very proud of her. She is no longer pot bellied and is getting a decent top line. We hope to get her off the property on trail rides and maybe to a schooling show to look around in the next six months. We’re taking it slowly. She’s turned out to be a real sweetie.

Congratulations to everyone else with their training successes! Reading about all of the success on this thread encouraged me to take Gwen and see if we could turn her into a good citizen. She had been sitting in a pasture and then a small pen without attention for four to five years.

Keep up the good work!

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Re: Dig out the winter gear and finish strong: November/December Goals and Progress

Postby exvet » Thu Dec 02, 2021 2:14 am

That's great news Srhorselady! I think pictures are due ;)

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Re: Dig out the winter gear and finish strong: November/December Goals and Progress

Postby heddylamar » Thu Dec 02, 2021 3:40 am

Maia's officially back to work :D And, yes, much to my barn owner (and another boarder's amusement) I did get on her, and we had a most fabulous ride* ... even after the great big bucking and rearing tantrum in the barn aisle :roll:

*There was an underlying thread of "make me" that didn't stand a chance — she's too attuned to moving off my leg promptly, even if she doesn't want to :lol:

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Re: Dig out the winter gear and finish strong: November/December Goals and Progress

Postby Aleuronx » Fri Dec 03, 2021 1:08 am

Been following along in the background but very busy with some work travel and just general boring life things along with plugging along rides. Managed a couple good lessons with trainer before they all blipped off to Florida after Turkey day. Nothing world changing just hard work on my position and working the uphill and separated canter.

Since then it’s gotten proper cold and we’ve had our first snow. Some up and some down rides, better rides when we haul out to large full indoor rather than smaller indoor at home. Trying not to spiral about the tricky rides considering what happened last year at around this time. But saddle fitter comes Tuesday (scheduled from the summer visit) so I can at least sleep better after that.

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Re: Dig out the winter gear and finish strong: November/December Goals and Progress

Postby demi » Fri Dec 03, 2021 1:20 am

Nice post SrHorselady! I love it when people give horses a new life. Gwen sounds like she really deserves the chance you gave her. And, I agree with exvet…pics!

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Re: Dig out the winter gear and finish strong: November/December Goals and Progress

Postby blob » Fri Dec 03, 2021 2:05 am

great to read/hear about everyone's updates.

I'm in a bad pattern/slump with MM and am feeling awful about it. She has been stiff in her ribcage and behind the leg and I have not been able to work through it very productively--instead I've gotten into a nagging cycle, which only makes her shut down. I've gone into every recent ride saying 'ok, I will work on getting out of nagging and get her sharper on my aids again' and somehow that plan just falls apart. And currently she's more shut down to aids (including whip) than she's been in a very long time. I'm leaving every ride feeling very frustrated with myself for getting sloppy, for falling into a bad habit, for being unfair/inconsistent with her. I need to find a way to save us both from myself. I'm thinking I might need to stick to lunging and long lining for a bit until I can figure out a better plan for us out of this very bad cycle.

RP is doing well, I've been focused on building strength--lots of trot poles, transitions, and trotting up the tiny hill we have access to. With holidays and travel it's looking like it will be difficult to find time for any lessons this month. So, I'm making December a strength building month for RP.

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Re: Dig out the winter gear and finish strong: November/December Goals and Progress

Postby piedmontfields » Fri Dec 03, 2021 1:33 pm

Hey blob---we all know you are a skilled horseperson and have a lot of tools for MM. But I just wanted to say that I totally get that some horses can have a set of reactions/patterns that are their go-to and it is easy to fall into their rabbit hole and experience a lot of frustration.

I have had times with Emi that I ditched whip and spurs and only did super light aids or H U G E leg, just to make it super vivid to her. I've also done whip, no spurs and spurs no whip in various experiments (our usual is whip and no spurs). Another approach I've used when I'm trying to figure out if something is wrong with horse v. my approach is to warm the horse up on the lunge, then ride. This sounds like a tool you're considering, with long lining. Sometimes getting a horse in front of the leg on the lunge line is easier and you can do easier transfers to the under saddle work.

Finally, as I know you know, be open to something else going on for MM that is affecting her energy/motivation. Keep us posted!

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Re: Dig out the winter gear and finish strong: November/December Goals and Progress

Postby exvet » Fri Dec 03, 2021 2:59 pm

piedmontfields wrote:Hey blob---we all know you are a skilled horseperson and have a lot of tools for MM. But I just wanted to say that I totally get that some horses can have a set of reactions/patterns that are their go-to and it is easy to fall into their rabbit hole and experience a lot of frustration.


My riding instructor often refers to these longer-term horse relationships not too unlike a marriage. We get into patterns of responses and each know where the buttons are - the relationship is a 2 directional medium. Not too surprising that the conversations, reactions and results often end up at the same point. This is why I will always seek eyes on the ground to assess and suggest what might need to be done differently. Sometimes I still come up with my own solutions but hearing what others observe of our communication patterns do shed a lot of light on what, "I'm not hearing or not seeing or not feeling, etc). Sometimes I do feel like my riding instructor is more a relationship therapist than someone who teaches me how to ride LOL.

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Re: Dig out the winter gear and finish strong: November/December Goals and Progress

Postby blob » Fri Dec 03, 2021 4:00 pm

thanks, Exvet and PF.

Every now and then I do have to have a ride with MM where I ask with a whisper and then get sharp with big aid if I don't get a fast response. But it's usually just an occasional reminder every few months or so. So when this first started, I thought we were just due for one of those days. But somehow we've gotten sucked into a vortex of mess. I'm really wishing schedules were lining up with my instructor this month because a lesson would def help or even having him get on her. Last weekend a friend and I trailered over to a nearby place for a trail ride. And she was forward and engaged and we did big gallop laps in a large field. So i do think some of this is likely a combination of long term relationship traps and some ring sourness. This weekend I will focus on ground work to give us both a break and then re-evaluate.

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Re: Dig out the winter gear and finish strong: November/December Goals and Progress

Postby Sue B » Fri Dec 03, 2021 5:01 pm

Days Rudy isn't "into it" we hit the roads, but not always just to play, I usually mix in some work too. Seems to really refresh the forward and suppleness. I think it also refreshes my brain and focus. But I get it, Blob. If I could work Rudy from the ground, I would. I think it's an excellent tool to have. Fear not, you guys will get back on track.

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Re: Dig out the winter gear and finish strong: November/December Goals and Progress

Postby Anne » Fri Dec 03, 2021 10:46 pm

Heaps of interesting discussion and progress here. No advice to add blob, just good luck and don't be too hard on yourself, you'll work it out!

SueB kudos to you staying with Tio's bucking and getting him back to work! I think we are living parallel horse lives - one sensitive TB (Connor, Rudy), and one prone-to-buck opinionated cheeky ratbag (Fergal, Tio) :-)

Fergal had 5 days off, without even being saddled. I got him in yesterday and threw the saddle on, with no issues (sounds simple I know, but his cold-backed / tension tendencies have been a major thing to overcome).

Connor and I had a short session in the arena, by ourselves, and out of sight of his herd mates. He was more spooky than normal, but didn't lose the plot. He took a while to settle, and we just focussed on 'round' circles (20m, with 10m at each circle point). The repeating pattern seems to help calm him, but we did get an unscheduled canter at one point.

Here's a couple of photos (I had the video camera on the mounting block, hence the slightly odd angles, and truncated rider!). I'm riding in my jumping saddle hence shorter stirrups, and awaiting the arrival of a 'new' (second-hand) dressage saddle hopefully next week. I quite like our balance in the trot, but ach, my left hand in the canter! I know I was trying to turn and he was getting exuberant.... ah well.

3.trot.jpg
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6.canter.jpg
6.canter.jpg (34.58 KiB) Viewed 5755 times

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Re: Dig out the winter gear and finish strong: November/December Goals and Progress

Postby Flight » Sun Dec 05, 2021 10:44 pm

Blob, I hate that feeling. I went through it for quite a while with Ding. He's not an energetic horse compared to Norsey. For ages I thought maybe I give up trying to do higher level dressage with him, maybe it's not fair to him etc. But I think what happened was he got stronger or used to the work and it's no longer a problem. I definitely have to do a bit of the wakeup sharp aids now and then and I work him in short sessions with lots of walk breaks on the buckle (no pressure whatsoever) and it keeps him happy.
I used to ride him occasionally with no bridle and just a cordeo/neck rope. He was really forward doing this, and it made me think of my contact and if I had too much 'handbrake' on unknowingly.
I like what exvet said about the relationship, sounds pretty right! I'm sure you'll get through it though.

Anne, at least you're not pulling just the inside rein there! You're doing a good job of controlling that outside shoulder in the turn and your seat looks really balanced!

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Re: Dig out the winter gear and finish strong: November/December Goals and Progress

Postby piedmontfields » Sun Dec 05, 2021 11:34 pm

I totally relate to the relationship description from exvet! After all, many of us are in it for the long haul, figuring out our horse partners and ourselves along the way.

Flight, the bridleless tip is a great reminder. I ride one handed in a bridle when I feel "blockage" that I'm not sorting out normally and it often goes away. But riding in the bitless bridle also helps us. I don't think that I'm a particularly "handsy" rider, but Emi has a "no noise" clause in her contract, I think!! :D

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Re: Dig out the winter gear and finish strong: November/December Goals and Progress

Postby blob » Mon Dec 06, 2021 3:57 pm

Anne--Connor looks lovely! I agree with Flight you look very balanced.

My christmas present to myself-- a PIVO--just arrived and so although i am stuck home today, I am hoping I can figure it out. i'm not always the most tech savvy! :lol:

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Re: Dig out the winter gear and finish strong: November/December Goals and Progress

Postby Ponichiwa » Mon Dec 06, 2021 7:54 pm

Blob, all I can say is that these things come in waves. I'm currently at a high-water mark with Queso: everything the last week or so has started to click and all I can see is blue skies ahead... forgetting all the struggles in Aug/Sept/Oct re-establishing connection and balance. Someone remind me of the good times when I start running into walls again.

It's also easy to forget that this work requires a lot of strength, and the fluency is the first thing to disappear when ramping up strength building work. It'll come back!

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Re: Dig out the winter gear and finish strong: November/December Goals and Progress

Postby Moutaineer » Tue Dec 07, 2021 2:28 am

An old trainer of mine called it "peeling the onion." Just when you think you've got it down, another layer of complexity rears it's head... (and I guess it can make you feel like crying, too.)

We are going through the same thing, I think.

Trainer: "Now you can do this, let's add this extra thing into the mix."

Potters: "But that wasn't part of the bargain she so willingly struck last week! I was quite willing to put forth that much effort for her, but I'm not so sure I care to work this hard!"

Me: "Please don't kill me."

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Re: Dig out the winter gear and finish strong: November/December Goals and Progress

Postby Chisamba » Tue Dec 07, 2021 4:46 am

I think it is cyclical. Let's say, fir example, your horse is a rusher. or gets stuck and slows down. finally you managed to get your desired tempi, you can do simple transitions, circles sometimes diagonals and you have nailed the tempo and connection. then you begin leg yield, shoulder in, suddenly the stuck in molasses returns.

you work away and finally your horse is so relaxed at the lateral work you even forget it was ever lazy. til you start half pass. then it's flying changes, then it's pirouette or passage.

everytime you challenge the horse, whichever it's habit was, it returns.

that's my experience anyway

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Re: Dig out the winter gear and finish strong: November/December Goals and Progress

Postby khall » Tue Dec 07, 2021 5:53 am

I don’t know. I’ve had a 180 flip with Gaila. The one who preferred watching the other horses work now is a motoring fool. I’m having to use steep lateral work and small circles just so I’m somewhat in a controlled tempo. She’s not being spooky or dangerous just literally leaning on the bridle and vroom. She’s making me work hard so that I’m not stuck on Mr Toads wild ride the entire session. It’s really taken me aback. Could the saddle be the cause? Dynamic from a Vinici? She’s definitely stronger in her work compared to earlier this year.

I do know with Rip long straight lines helped keep him
more forward thinking.

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Re: Dig out the winter gear and finish strong: November/December Goals and Progress

Postby piedmontfields » Tue Dec 07, 2021 11:15 am

I tend to think of both being sluggy/behind the leg and rushing as the same evasion: speed. But it's true that we go through Jekyll and Hyde experiences to refuse and re-shape these evasions!

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Re: Dig out the winter gear and finish strong: November/December Goals and Progress

Postby khall » Tue Dec 07, 2021 12:56 pm

Piedmont it’s a completely different feel to it. I know what SF is saying when she says Tesla holds her breath in her refusal to go forward to the aid. Gaila was the same. Like she tightened her whole body against the leg aid. That is not there now. She is willingly going forward she’s just wanting me to hold her up so she can zoom off. Never had this issue before. It’s even in the walk where we struggled with a free forward walk. Now she just swings along.

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Re: Dig out the winter gear and finish strong: November/December Goals and Progress

Postby exvet » Tue Dec 07, 2021 1:10 pm

I find it to be cyclical like Chisamba though what that cycle is tends to vary with the horse. Brandon is automatically a more fluid, Loosey goosey type who even though we go back and forth between being behind the leg and then racing trying to find THE tempo that is desired......hitting the wall for him each time I introduce something hard or new tends to be bracing in the jaw and neck and resistance to lateral bend in the rib cage....though he does a hell of a leg yield ;) Junior on the other hand is simply put a tight compact powder keg. He braces and holds himself throughout his entire body especially his back and topline. We go through the same thing each time something new or hard is introduced. He too will go back and forth behind the leg or like a sewing machine until we find THE tempo that's right for him; but his resistance to something he isn't all that too keen on is to tighten and hold himself longitudinally more so than laterally (which is more Brandon). Their builds and overall conformation/muscling are rather predictive of where those issues are too.

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Re: Dig out the winter gear and finish strong: November/December Goals and Progress

Postby Ryeissa » Tue Dec 07, 2021 4:18 pm

so how do you know when its behavior or physical (or some mix)? whenever i had this major resistance my horse had some physical issue to address.....
I am guilty of going too slow/cautions, but in my experience when I took a pause to fix things the collection then came super easy and we made progress very fast. JMHO as a lowly ammy.

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Re: Dig out the winter gear and finish strong: November/December Goals and Progress

Postby mari » Wed Dec 08, 2021 6:24 am

khall wrote:I don’t know. I’ve had a 180 flip with Gaila. The one who preferred watching the other horses work now is a motoring fool. I’m having to use steep lateral work and small circles just so I’m somewhat in a controlled tempo. She’s not being spooky or dangerous just literally leaning on the bridle and vroom. She’s making me work hard so that I’m not stuck on Mr Toads wild ride the entire session. It’s really taken me aback. Could the saddle be the cause? Dynamic from a Vinici? She’s definitely stronger in her work compared to earlier this year.

I do know with Rip long straight lines helped keep him
more forward thinking.


I was never actually galloped off with (Odin is waaaaaay too lazy for that), but I was definitely run away with at a leany trot for an embarrassingly long time. A hundred transitions a ride is your friend. Barring discomfort issues, she's found some kind of engine that is currently just driven by momentum. So I would break up the momentum. For Odin, once he'd found some forward, the rule was that we couldn't do a 20m circle without 3 transitions in it. Between gaits, within the gait, whatever.
The aim of argument or of discussion should not be victory, but progress. ~ Joseph Joubert

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Re: Dig out the winter gear and finish strong: November/December Goals and Progress

Postby mari » Wed Dec 08, 2021 6:30 am

We've given up on serious progress for the year. I've got this week and next week left before I go on holiday for 3 weeks. We're playing with changes and transitions and some harder canter lateral work. And having 2 jumping lessons a week (or trying to, it's raining a LOT).

Here is a video of us doing a line with some bounces and oxers yesterday. Last week's jumping was a little on the exuberant side :lol: , I was so pleased with his focus and keenness yesterday.

https://youtu.be/6ogch7EO3HU
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Re: Dig out the winter gear and finish strong: November/December Goals and Progress

Postby Flight » Wed Dec 08, 2021 10:58 am

You would be getting the La Nina affect with more rainfall too, Mari?? I'm so glad we are no longer in drought here in Australia, but I"m not used to having to delay when I'm riding due to rain!

He's like a rubber ball bouncing through that. Awesome!

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Re: Dig out the winter gear and finish strong: November/December Goals and Progress

Postby exvet » Wed Dec 08, 2021 1:06 pm

Ryeissa wrote:so how do you know when its behavior or physical (or some mix)? whenever i had this major resistance my horse had some physical issue to address.....
I am guilty of going too slow/cautions, but in my experience when I took a pause to fix things the collection then came super easy and we made progress very fast. JMHO as a lowly ammy.


Well, I do a physical exam and assessment of soundness frequently. If I feel like I'm getting repeated resistances to the same thing no matter how I approach it, I will always do a PE. I check the usual - lameness issues? No. Teeth issues? No - or time to float. etc. I look at muscle development very closely to tell me if the training is correct and if so, and the PE doesn't identify an issue and I'm still having resistance issues I'll break things down in my training into even smaller chunks that allow me to work through it safely. I like a lot of others have the benefit of time, experience of many before the ones I have now. I owe so much to horses in my past like Monty who will be 24 this year and is still giving lessons to those who want to learn how to ride the flying changes. He is sound (now with light maintenance - q 6-month hock injections), healthy and just as cheeky as always. I had many resistance issues I had to negotiate while working and learning up through the levels in dressage with him. I'm grateful to all my others as well.

I'll also put it out there that through all my 'struggles' with Junior which included finding a saddle that does fit well (took some time), keeping on top of his teeth (he has had some manageable issues) which included finding the appropriate bit - easier done than with Brandon though that finally was sorted out, and observing the little booger at liberty..........his preferences and resistances are all natural predilections specific to the individual. His ability to play, flex, take small buildings (Ace and Brandon or the barrels in his turn out) in a single bound keep my head and perspective right where they need to be so that I'm not chasing down imagined rabbit holes. I just watched him last night, stand on two legs (diagonal pair) as he reached all the way under his barrel through to his groin with his head to pull off a piece of plant/sticker that was bothering him and this was to the right. He had his right hind hiked up in the air and his left fore just off the ground. I've seen similar gymnastics in the other direction (recently) as well. His flexibility without weight seems quite adept as is his balance. His elasticity at liberty also seems reasonably good. So for this one example I feel that his resistances are a combination of physical and behavioral but nothing that would medically or ethically prevent us from humanely finding a way to work through these resistances to improve strength, engagement, gaits, etc all in the form of or through the guidance of dressage.

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Re: Dig out the winter gear and finish strong: November/December Goals and Progress

Postby mari » Wed Dec 08, 2021 2:11 pm

Flight wrote:You would be getting the La Nina affect with more rainfall too, Mari?? I'm so glad we are no longer in drought here in Australia, but I"m not used to having to delay when I'm riding due to rain!

He's like a rubber ball bouncing through that. Awesome!


I'm not sure if we're feeling La Nina. Here in Gauteng we have heavy thunderstorms and rain a few evenings a week, right through summer and sometimes into early autumn. It feels pretty normal for summer currently :D
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Re: Dig out the winter gear and finish strong: November/December Goals and Progress

Postby Ryeissa » Wed Dec 08, 2021 4:35 pm

exvet wrote:
Ryeissa wrote:so how do you know when its behavior or physical (or some mix)? whenever i had this major resistance my horse had some physical issue to address.....
I am guilty of going too slow/cautions, but in my experience when I took a pause to fix things the collection then came super easy and we made progress very fast. JMHO as a lowly ammy.


Well, I do a physical exam and assessment of soundness frequently. If I feel like I'm getting repeated resistances to the same thing no matter how I approach it, I will always do a PE. I check the usual - lameness issues? No. Teeth issues? No - or time to float. etc. I look at muscle development very closely to tell me if the training is correct and if so, and the PE doesn't identify an issue and I'm still having resistance issues I'll break things down in my training into even smaller chunks that allow me to work through it safely. I like a lot of others have the benefit of time, experience of many before the ones I have now. I owe so much to horses in my past like Monty who will be 24 this year and is still giving lessons to those who want to learn how to ride the flying changes. He is sound (now with light maintenance - q 6-month hock injections), healthy and just as cheeky as always. I had many resistance issues I had to negotiate while working and learning up through the levels in dressage with him. I'm grateful to all my others as well.

I'll also put it out there that through all my 'struggles' with Junior which included finding a saddle that does fit well (took some time), keeping on top of his teeth (he has had some manageable issues) which included finding the appropriate bit - easier done than with Brandon though that finally was sorted out, and observing the little booger at liberty..........his preferences and resistances are all natural predilections specific to the individual. His ability to play, flex, take small buildings (Ace and Brandon or the barrels in his turn out) in a single bound keep my head and perspective right where they need to be so that I'm not chasing down imagined rabbit holes. I just watched him last night, stand on two legs (diagonal pair) as he reached all the way under his barrel through to his groin with his head to pull off a piece of plant/sticker that was bothering him and this was to the right. He had his right hind hiked up in the air and his left fore just off the ground. I've seen similar gymnastics in the other direction (recently) as well. His flexibility without weight seems quite adept as is his balance. His elasticity at liberty also seems reasonably good. So for this one example I feel that his resistances are a combination of physical and behavioral but nothing that would medically or ethically prevent us from humanely finding a way to work through these resistances to improve strength, engagement, gaits, etc all in the form of or through the guidance of dressage.


thanks for the reply! Yes, horses are a mix of their issues and our issues (Asymmetries, etc)!
Interesting that my horse needed chiro for c5 even though he could reach around verrrrry far to stretch. Go figure. They are so weird sometimes.

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Re: Dig out the winter gear and finish strong: November/December Goals and Progress

Postby piedmontfields » Wed Dec 08, 2021 5:46 pm

[quote="khall"]Piedmont it’s a completely different feel to it. /quote]

Yes, it feels different. But it is, in my view, just different sides of a speed evasion! Kind of like being unable to bend and too bendy are different sides of a crookedness evasion.

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Re: Dig out the winter gear and finish strong: November/December Goals and Progress

Postby khall » Wed Dec 08, 2021 6:25 pm

Piedmont what I feel from Gaila right now is that she has found this new power and is reveling in it and it has thrown her balance off. I had a friend watch her go yesterday who’s seen her in her bob bon phase and she kept remarking how much higher her carriage is. Up out of the sling yet not quite strong enough to carry the power consistently up so leans and runs because of that power. I truly don’t link the two issues at all other than out of balance can also make them not want to go forward. Where as out of balance is now making her want to run with the new power.

The small circles, half halt up and quick changes of direction is definitely helping me to control that power plus I need to feel more comfortable allowing her to go a bit. She’s opened up her stride considerably in all 3 gaits now she needs to learn to balance it and all the techniques I mentioned helps her to balance better.

Now I compare how it feels to ride Joplin (Sunday I had one of those pinch myself rides:). Joplin has the power but also has the balance as long as my position is there to support her. It is all about being as correct in my seat and clear with my aids and there she is. Very schoolmasterish for such a young mare who is really just learning all this work now. Sunday I had the ride where she was powering up from the canter work with incredible elevation yet maintaining the balance back into trot in that power. As long as I sit there with a supportive seat she’s happy to work. So even though my mares are on a similar path right now they ride very different. Thankfully they both are fun and safe to ride with Joplin leaving me grinning every time I work with her.

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Re: Dig out the winter gear and finish strong: November/December Goals and Progress

Postby exvet » Thu Dec 09, 2021 4:06 am

Ryeissa wrote:
exvet wrote:
Ryeissa wrote:so how do you know when its behavior or physical (or some mix)? whenever i had this major resistance my horse had some physical issue to address.....
I am guilty of going too slow/cautions, but in my experience when I took a pause to fix things the collection then came super easy and we made progress very fast. JMHO as a lowly ammy.


Well, I do a physical exam and assessment of soundness frequently. If I feel like I'm getting repeated resistances to the same thing no matter how I approach it, I will always do a PE. I check the usual - lameness issues? No. Teeth issues? No - or time to float. etc. I look at muscle development very closely to tell me if the training is correct and if so, and the PE doesn't identify an issue and I'm still having resistance issues I'll break things down in my training into even smaller chunks that allow me to work through it safely. I like a lot of others have the benefit of time, experience of many before the ones I have now. I owe so much to horses in my past like Monty who will be 24 this year and is still giving lessons to those who want to learn how to ride the flying changes. He is sound (now with light maintenance - q 6-month hock injections), healthy and just as cheeky as always. I had many resistance issues I had to negotiate while working and learning up through the levels in dressage with him. I'm grateful to all my others as well.

I'll also put it out there that through all my 'struggles' with Junior which included finding a saddle that does fit well (took some time), keeping on top of his teeth (he has had some manageable issues) which included finding the appropriate bit - easier done than with Brandon though that finally was sorted out, and observing the little booger at liberty..........his preferences and resistances are all natural predilections specific to the individual. His ability to play, flex, take small buildings (Ace and Brandon or the barrels in his turn out) in a single bound keep my head and perspective right where they need to be so that I'm not chasing down imagined rabbit holes. I just watched him last night, stand on two legs (diagonal pair) as he reached all the way under his barrel through to his groin with his head to pull off a piece of plant/sticker that was bothering him and this was to the right. He had his right hind hiked up in the air and his left fore just off the ground. I've seen similar gymnastics in the other direction (recently) as well. His flexibility without weight seems quite adept as is his balance. His elasticity at liberty also seems reasonably good. So for this one example I feel that his resistances are a combination of physical and behavioral but nothing that would medically or ethically prevent us from humanely finding a way to work through these resistances to improve strength, engagement, gaits, etc all in the form of or through the guidance of dressage.


thanks for the reply! Yes, horses are a mix of their issues and our issues (Asymmetries, etc)!
Interesting that my horse needed chiro for c5 even though he could reach around verrrrry far to stretch. Go figure. They are so weird sometimes.


Glad you figured out what your horse needed and got it. My point is that I do my best to do the same. Fortunately my horses don't need anything like that, at least not yet. I had one who for one full year received acupuncture every 4 weeks because that is what helped; but his problem was progressive - his resistances were medical in nature and he got the best treatment available. Junior does need to have his teeth done more frequently than others and that's what he gets. You do what you have to do but not every resistance is a medical issue. Some are, some aren't. We all do the best we can for our horses. We all use what expertise we have available to us to navigate that path.

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Re: Dig out the winter gear and finish strong: November/December Goals and Progress

Postby Kyras_Mom » Thu Dec 09, 2021 6:05 am

Everyone is making so much progress. Mari...that looks like fun. Maybe 30 years ago I would have tried that :? .

Kyra continues to do well at the new stable. I am still being pretty amazed as it was a major change of management and food (changed to alfalfa). She did finally meet her other next door neighbor (a gelding) nose to nose. He is majorly prone to thrush so in the winter when it is wet, he normally stays in his stall. It was a bit drier and his owner turned him out in the run-in to get a few rays for a couple hours. Kyra of course, proceeded to squeal and kick a lot and of course she kicked the very stout steel pipe fence. Yesterday her right hind leg was quite fat. She was tender but sound so I just did a walk workout. Last week we had a spa day...I did a bib clip on her so she wouldn't get so hot and sweaty and I washed and bagged her tail. Ready for winter now.

I have been having good rides but still basically working on fitness and suppleness. The last couple rides have included lots of wildlife action. Man, there are tons of deer in the area so she might as well get used to them. Two rides ago, a lovely 6 point buck and one of his harem went bounding up the hillside at the end of the arena. She was a ways away and was interested but just stood there and watched them go up the hill. I was even more impressed as the other horse being ridden was having a meltdown over said deer. Yesterday, while I was lunging her to check for soundness, she caught sight of one over by the driveway about 60 yards away. That was very snort worthy as it was partially hidden behind some trees. I finally got her attention back then I look up and here comes 3 yearlings. I just envisioned being drug off to parts unknown. As soon as she could see them unobstructed, she went oh, OK. All three shimmied under the arena fence and strolled across the arena and under the other side and we tagged along behind them. Not so much as one snort. However, she was sure concerned about the creek that is lined with willows. That is where the deer disappeared and she was sure they might be coming back. Another reason to keep things at a walk. I chose to work on shoulder-in and it was funny...lovely shoulder-in left with her right ear glued to the creek.

We are still having above average temps which is great for riding, especially with no indoor. We will do what we can do. If it ever does get cold, we will be back to walking. The arenas are salted so hopefully, unless it gets really cold (less than 20F), we can still get some work done. I am not used to riding this much :lol: . It is really nice to not have so much time dedicated to non-riding activities.

Happy riding all.

Susan

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Re: Dig out the winter gear and finish strong: November/December Goals and Progress

Postby Chisamba » Thu Dec 09, 2021 10:57 am

first if all , and very important, every "behaviour" is a non verbal communication. to work out what a non verbal is attempting to communicate by a behavior the best was is to do ABC documentation.

A, antecedent. what was the setting , what was the trigger .
B. behavior
C. consequence

there us no such thing as a behavior or a physical issue. a behavior may be an attempt to communicate a physical issue but all behavior is communication.. to really understand an individual you need to recognize positive behaviors as well as non compliant behavior.

I hope this helps some one.

oh , also, often on many many occasions even the animal ( or person) acting out may not know why.

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Re: Dig out the winter gear and finish strong: November/December Goals and Progress

Postby Ryeissa » Thu Dec 09, 2021 2:11 pm

Chisamba wrote:first if all , and very important, every "behaviour" is a non verbal communication. to work out what a non verbal is attempting to communicate by a behavior the best was is to do ABC documentation.

A, antecedent. what was the setting , what was the trigger .
B. behavior
C. consequence

there us no such thing as a behavior or a physical issue. a behavior may be an attempt to communicate a physical issue but all behavior is communication.. to really understand an individual you need to recognize positive behaviors as well as non compliant behavior.

I hope this helps some one.

oh , also, often on many many occasions even the animal ( or person) acting out may not know why.


I don't know what you mean by there is no such thing as a behavior of physical issue. I'm talking about the causes of things like being unable to bend one way/take a rein, resistance in collection, tooth grinding, etc.

Every time I have encountered a resistance in my clients or my horses it can trace back to something stuck in the body (beyond what can be released in dressage training in muscles), arthritis, soft tissue, or muscle. Sometimes it takes awhile to diagnose and sometimes the part of the body that is sore is not the part that has the behavior (ie-holding jaw because neck needs work)

Fix that through PEMF, chiro, massage, etc and the horse reduced the behaviors and there were no significant resistances.

My horse is a lot like Junior and its the same as we see in the last clinic series of the canter. I'm not talking about huge reactions like bucking or rearing. More common things. Its not fun for me to ride through that, so I check the horse over then fix and get back at it. JMHO

So no, I think its more like 75% physical origin and 25% old patterns/rider symmetry when you get the horse beyond say training level. you can do what works for you. The training definitely helps on top of the work, we all have body patterns. I just don't think training is enough to counteract.

Again, these are not things I would call a vet for- they are not a lameness or injury (most times). It's just like golfers to get therapy after the workout- I'm not sure why people don't do more of this. All the horses I know competing get at least something every other week to make them feel their best (1st level-PSG)

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Re: Dig out the winter gear and finish strong: November/December Goals and Progress

Postby Chisamba » Thu Dec 09, 2021 2:25 pm

behavior OR physical issue.

if physical.issue causes a behavior it is a communication.

if a stress issues causes a behavior it is communication.

if remembered fear causes a behavior, it's communication.

it is not either/ or. it is always communication

I'm not out to win any prizes. if I say something it is because it might be helpful for someone, or myself.

like I already said, behavior is communication, whether attempting to communicate a physical issue, a stress issue, a challenge to.leadership or something even they do not understand. non verbal behavior is always communication.

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Re: Dig out the winter gear and finish strong: November/December Goals and Progress

Postby exvet » Thu Dec 09, 2021 3:20 pm

I guess I agree and I don't. I realize that 'resistance' in terms of not wanting to give to the right rein can certainly be due to a persistent posture, even a preference. While chiro, massage, et al can assist in addressing this, in my opinion so can appropriate exercises - not at all unlike physical therapy. I've had chiro done on some of my horses in the past as well as massage and I'm afraid I didn't (nor did the horse) appreciate any significant difference. I guess my choice is PT in the form of dressage to work through the issue. I do think it's finally starting to improve but Junior will always have the preference of not wanting to go into the right rein unless it is made clear that it is required. So the physical and behavioral observations are definitely all forms of communication.

I don't agree with 'there is no such thing as a physical vs. behavior issue'. In my line of work, I must often get down to determining if specific 'communication' has a root cause regarding what most of us term as behavioral reasons (anxiety or fear of something) vs. physical (physical pain or malfunctioning body systems). I'm not an expert in body language but I do think I have a decent handle on it for the species I deal with the most.

Case in point I had a young Australian Shepherd who was in for an exam. The owner stated that she knew her dog was riddled with various anxiety issues but was concerned that some of his 'resistances and unwanted behavior' may be due to physical pain. By the end of the day and after two teams failed miserably to work with the dog in a positive way to get the samples needed, I grabbed a technician who is very adept at reading dog body language and she and I worked with the dog. In less than 30 minutes we were able to, without resistance or stress, obtain all the information needed to determine that the dog was not suffering from any recent or past injury and exhibited no true physical pain response that could be associated with the owner's concerns. We also were able to without resistance, panic, stress or even a vocalization trim his nails and conduct a full hands-on physical including obtaining blood samples. My conclusion was that the body language exhibited by the other staff ramped up the dog's anxiety and fear of being hurt/threatened. I'll leave it at that since I can get on a real soap box about fear free training. Suffice it to say that the dog clearly loves my one technician and doesn't think I'm so bad either. The dog's behavior, however, by the others lead some to believe that he was an unruly, nasty, unsocialized dog (absolutely not the case) OR 'definitely is painful in the hind end' - again I'm confident that is not the case.

Getting back to the issues of training that I've had with my horse and what I believe may be Ryeissa's frustration in my preference not to have a chiro or massage therapist work on him (more so than just me spend the time to apply the typical cool down routine I was taught at the track). I believe my horse continues to let me know his preference in how to carry his body. I do not think he is in extreme pain but to do what I ask is not comfortable (term it stiffness et al). I believe he also is clearly communicating that he is stronger than I am. As a result I feel I need to chip away and approach the resistance in a way that invites and encourages him to do what I want whether it takes me 2 weeks or 2 years. Hopefully if my approach is successful he will become more comfortable and accepting of working and using his body in the way that I wish. For me that is what dressage is all about.

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Re: Dig out the winter gear and finish strong: November/December Goals and Progress

Postby Chisamba » Thu Dec 09, 2021 3:55 pm

.
Last edited by Chisamba on Thu Dec 09, 2021 4:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Dig out the winter gear and finish strong: November/December Goals and Progress

Postby Chisamba » Thu Dec 09, 2021 4:03 pm

I guess I am.not skilled at communication maybe I should throw a tantrum. lol

if a horse resists bend because of pain, it is a behavior.
if it resists bend because it's afraid, it is a behavior
if it resists bend because it's stronger than you it is a behavior.

there is no difference if the cause is physical, alpha or pain, they are all behaviors. to differentiate between pain ability or anxiety saying one us a behavior and one is not is technically incorrect. we are very strongly reminded of this in training .

response to pain IS a behavior and attempt to communicate. behavior is not limited to " being bad" " reading body language" or " taking advantage" any.phyisical response or lack.of response is a behavior

flinching is a behavior
smiling is a behavior
tug of war is a behavior
aggression is a behavior
acquiescence is a behavior
every single non verbal communication is a behavior.

if a person or animal cannot express itself in your language it communicates with behavior. ok I'm done. I'll just fuck off and not share my training in non verbal communication. obviously I'm the only one who cares and why waste the effort.

I remember sitting in an ISP meeting where a parent leaped up and said "my child has no behaviors" . there was some silence. the individual was non verbal. " How do you know when he is happy, ? " asked the clinical psychologist . He smiles and laughs, was the response . that is a behavior, replied the.CP. ok how do.you know when he is hungry? he.points and gestures. that is a behavior.

my point has nothing to do with what causes a response, my.point is that it is all an attempt at communicative behavior.

I am going to edit and close by saying I did nor argue a single thing, I didn't agree or disagree with pain versus anxiety versus learned behavior, i simply pointed out that behavior is communication. if you understand that it is all attempt a communication you can often train more positive methods of communication rather simply attempt behavior modification. ok i really am done
this means a lot to me, it applies to.both my horse life and.my.professional life.. I guess it's stupid of me to think anyone wants to.care about it. i wasn't agreeing or disagreeing I was just opening the door to.other options.

I should just delete it all.

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Re: Dig out the winter gear and finish strong: November/December Goals and Progress

Postby Lipsmackerpony88 » Thu Dec 09, 2021 4:17 pm

I get what you are saying Chisamba. And I'm not sure that exvet is saying much different in reality.

Ryeissa, I also get your point and I'm one to always make sure that there's no physical issues. Some would say I'm a little overzealous and having the vet out or body workers. But for me the peace of mind is worth it. That being said not every resistance would have me worried especially when trying to break into real third level work! Either way mentally and physically it is a big step up for any horse. Some more than others and certainly yes if there's physical issues you are definitely going to see it then too. But I think even for the able-bodied horse it is a big step up.

Like Exvet, I too have never really seen any earth shattering results from body work. That being said I still do get it fairly regularly for my horse although I certainly would never be able to afford every week or even every month. But at least every few months I try and do a massage or something. If anything it just makes me feel better. This last time with the magna Wave was the first time I actually saw any results that I felt were tangible. He had a little bit of a dip by his SI area and it really did seem to make that less noticeable right then and there. I think body work can be extremely good tool I just don't think it's a cure for a lot of things. Just a tool along with other veterinary medicine and like Exvet said good PT which is what dressage should be. I do try to do a really thorough grooming and a little of my own massage and carrot stretches to check in.
Last edited by Lipsmackerpony88 on Thu Dec 09, 2021 4:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Dig out the winter gear and finish strong: November/December Goals and Progress

Postby Lipsmackerpony88 » Thu Dec 09, 2021 4:23 pm

And I think Exvet has been very clear that she has some of her own physical obstacles. Like most of us in one way or the other but there's no way around it that it does affect the horse to some extent.

I actually called my bodyworker out because for a few weeks, sometimes Lynx would give me the wrong lead in one direction. My automatically assumed that it was something physical so I wanted to have her out right away. Well the week before she came, I pretty much discovered that the problem is actually me and not so much Lynx. So fix me and no more issues. Still glad I had her out as he enjoyed it and I do think she helped one area but nothing was really found of concern. I just needed to ride a little better ;)

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Re: Dig out the winter gear and finish strong: November/December Goals and Progress

Postby Aleuronx » Thu Dec 09, 2021 4:47 pm

Just mirroring LSP. I don't think Ryeissa/Exvet/Chisamba are wrong.

We have to listen to our horses and to me dressage is physical therapy for the horse if done with a sensitive understanding the horse underneath you that day.

There are phenomenal vets and physios as well as some less so. There are also riders who can be so effective in their position and riding as to alleviate and mitigate issues. I'm sure we've all seen it.

To me listening to the horse has never steered me wrong, however it is done.

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Re: Dig out the winter gear and finish strong: November/December Goals and Progress

Postby khall » Thu Dec 09, 2021 5:12 pm

Chisamba excellent discussion re behavior. Definitely worthy of keeping that thought process in the forefront as we deal with our animals who cannot be disingenuous in their behavior

I will say that I absolutely have seen chiro work wonders in a pretty extreme case but that the dressage work when done correctly develops the horse positively. My good friend is a DVM and does both chiro and acupuncture. We were doing a symposium with her and Mark Russell showing why we did the work we did biomechanically. We had an older horse come in as a demo who was extremely dropped in his back from improper work. The vet worked on him bringing his back up by 4 inches. His owner was able with more correct work to keep his back up beyond just the symposium.

I do use chiro and acupuncture about every 3 months or so. No massage simply because there is none available in my area that I would use. It’s good for me to have a trusted person have their hands on my horses checking behind my work

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Re: Dig out the winter gear and finish strong: November/December Goals and Progress

Postby Sue B » Thu Dec 09, 2021 6:12 pm

first if all , and very important, every "behaviour" is a non verbal communication. to work out what a non verbal is attempting to communicate by a behavior the best was is to do ABC documentation.

A, antecedent. what was the setting , what was the trigger .
B. behavior
C. consequence

there us no such thing as a behavior or a physical issue. a behavior may be an attempt to communicate a physical issue but all behavior is communication.. to really understand an individual you need to recognize positive behaviors as well as non compliant behavior.

I hope this helps some one.

oh , also, often on many many occasions even the animal ( or person) acting out may not know why.


I think this is an excellent distillation of how to interpret non-verbal communication. Great job Chisamba!


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