"Live" GP Freestyles in Florida

[Tanga]

https://gdf.coth.com/article/live-strea ... MOCKW-ljwU

A lot of spooky, naughty, not going to do it rides!

Almost done. Have to say, not liking most of the cut and paste music.

[Chisamba]

I see a big empty ring, must be late or between rides. Is there a start list with times somewhere?

[Tanga]

I see a big empty ring, must be late or between rides. Is there a start list with times somewhere?

You should be able to slide the time forward to the rides. Then you can skip the breaks and such.

[Chisamba]

I found the replay button, lol thx

[Chisamba]

I know it's easy to be critical and I am nor competing at that level but I honestly do not understand Ashley's score. ( havanna) . I felt that there were trot steps behind in the canter pirouette and they scored >7? And in the trot half pass the hind legs were quite distinctly out behind. I honestly have nothing against AH, but I did t understand the high scores for those moves

Edited to add it seems to be a trend to ignore errors and breaks if favor of best moments

[Tanga]

I like that you can watch these at any time.

Yeah. I will repeat my comment people often don't like. They score very high at the upper lever levels like this. I really liked some of the rides, but if I do some of that crap, I get 4's. I saw a lot of what you were talking about. The first three rides had a LOT of mistakes and I think they all scored kind of high, especially the judge at B, so maybe they felt they had to go WAY up to get it right. The one black horse was lovely, but completely not on t bit and dropped in the shoulder, there were some super bad, lateral walks that got 6.4's, and a lot of irregularities that got ignored. But, I also saw soe absolutely lovely movements I was scoring as 8 +'s , and they wergetting 7's.

I don't mind if they go with an "overall" view of things and ignore little things, but I everyone should be doing it, and they shouldn't be killing people at the lower levels for that.

[Chisamba]

An overall impression I had was that many riders get nice uphill connection in the trot work but the canter were quite downhill ( in the same horse) I also saw some fake collection, where the horse had an uphill neck and head but the hind legs were trailing.

In general what a very wide range of difference in canter pirouette. Must be particularly hard to score.

[demi]

Wow.

Obviously I’m not in a position to make a comment other than a personal opinion, but I am really starting to understand what Tanga has been saying all along. My overall impression of all of those rides was that the scores were too high. Embarrassingly high…..

I will say that I liked some of the music, though.

[Tanga]

Yeah, interesting, eh, demi? Now you know why my pirouette scores really confuse me.

I think there were a lot of factors in weird scoring including horses that were just not going to do it and a different set of judges. I'm looking at who the judges are now and I don't recognize any of them, except Cesar Torrente, who I think was just promoted. The one at B who was super high at the beginning was Colliander from Finland. Think about it, as a judge this is a pretty cush job because you can stay in Florida (which seems to be the promised land to many Europeans) for weeks on end and judge at the same place. So, of course you want to be asked back, and giving low scores won't do that.

It will be interesting to see how the scores go as the weeks progress. Think about it. The high score yesterday was %80. What will the scores be when the really "big" guns show up?

[Chisamba]

I thought the German's ride was the clear winner. But to many personal best scores for the quality of rides imho

[Tanga]

https://gdf.coth.com/article/live-strea ... z-txmTt7ks
Watching the GP now. OMG!!! Ahh. Apparently, you can do three shuffling steps of "piaffe" and get a 7! And 6 m "pirouette" falling on the forehand? 7! I was scribing last weekend and discussed this with the I judge. He said, yeah there is a big issue with the way the international panels score.

GP for today and the freestyles tomorrow if you want to watch some.

[Tanga]

The freestyles. https://gdf.coth.com/article/live-strea ... F5EQDI8TaM

[Tanga]

More live on through Sunday if you want to watch. https://gdf.coth.com/article/live-strea ... 2QcutsuhoY

I would be THRILLED to be judged at the standard of Wellington at my show on Sunday!

[Lipsmackerpony88]

Good luck on Sunday!! Let us know how it goes Tanga.

[demi]

Thanks for posting the links, Tanga. I plan on watching some later this afternoon.

And good luck Sunday! Im looking forward to watching your vids. You and the Q’s are my fav FEI stars!

[Tanga]

Thanks for posting the links, Tanga. I plan on watching some later this afternoon.

And good luck Sunday! Im looking forward to watching your vids. You and the Q’s are my fav FEI stars!

You're welcome! I do like I can watch it later, too, and I can scan through and watch what we want.

I will see if I can get vids. I'm on my own. We'll see how it goes. We've been improving a lot, and had lessons with Chelsey, who agreed, so hopefully it shows. I finally, mostly can get clean ones, and if I can get anything like the p/p I get at home, it will be great. New judge I know nothing about.

[goldhorse]

Tanga, I looked up your ride times. Those are brutal. Good luck. Maybe one of these days I can get down there and tape your rides for you.

[Chisamba]

Good luck Tanga

[Flight]

Good luck Tanga!

[Moutaineer]

Good luck, Tanga!

Sitting here watching the PSG from Thursday. The top rides got well deserved high scores, I think.

My takeaway, yet again, is that people throw away marks on technical things like the walk pirouettes.

[demi]

I watched PSG from Thu and also thought the top riders deserved the good scores they received. I was impressed with the top riders and horses and thoroughly enjoyed watching. Im still learning how to watch and look at the scores at the same time but in spite of that, my take away is dressage is definitely improving!

[Tanga]

I watched PSG from Thu and also thought the top riders deserved the good scores they received. I was impressed with the top riders and horses and thoroughly enjoyed watching. Im still learning how to watch and look at the scores at the same time but in spite of that, my take away is dressage is definitely improving!

Cool. I agree. As much as I'm all over the BS, I 100% agree dressage has improved dramatically. When people say "back then" it was more corect and classical, they clearly weren't around "back then."

[khall]

Tanga my back then was Klimke in ‘84 winning gold. Or Marzog or Keen. I know the horses did not move like the ones bred now but they did not roll them up into a pretzel until Nichole U and Remmi then Isabelle W and Gigilo. The beginning of RK.

We definitely went through some dark times during Anky and I’m still noe will I ever be a IW fan. There is good riding out there though. And it’s being rewarded now.

[Tanga]

khall I am back to about the same time. Yes, those horses were looser, but the quality was much lower. I remember seeing the WC in person in LA, and every single horse had major flaws somewhere. It's not like that now.

I disagree on Anky. She wasn't perfect, but she did a good job with her horses and they stayed sound. Back when CDS did amazing symposiums, she did one with Tinneke Bartles. It was great. She clearly explained her system and why she uses it and showed how it worked on every single horse, and they improved dramatically. She is tiny, maybe 100 lbs, so the idea she could crank anything in is ridiculous. And her horses stayed sound. IW, I admire for her longevity and work ethic, but her horses are not staying sound. You can see them degenerate over time, and the whole thing where all of them are not correct in p/P makes me crazy. And the thing is, if the judges beaned her on that, she could correct it! She used to never let out any neck in trot extentions. The judges started marking her down, and she fixed it! Grr.

But, I agree. SUCH amazing riding and horses now. I think the internet has really helped so much because we can see it and learn from it, as well as having horses that are so much easier to do it with.

[Flight]

I'm not sure the breeding is helping keep the soundness? Horses seem to have that hypermobility going on nowadays. I'd have to see if there was any true studies on how that correlates to soft tissue injury though.
I also think that society in general is pushing for perfection. To ride a whole dressage test without a bobble has made riders hold their horses so tightly together now. I don't think there is much true self carriage.
I cant ever agree with Rolkur. I know Anky is tiny but you leverage back on two bits of metal in horses mouth, I don't think horses have an option but to bend their necks like that. Horses nature is to try and do what we are asking, I think it's immoral.

[Chisamba]

Tangas implication that the judges drive the method is true. The riders ride to what is rewarded. The judges kind of lie when they claim they can. Only judge what they see. If they couldn't see the gait abnormalities and lack of lateral suppleness in the rollkur horses they shouldn't be judges.

I honestly could not and still cannot understand the adulation of Klimke's riding. Someone, tell me exactly what you like, compared with today's riders.

They are all better riders than I am, so let's just acknowledge that right away, but comparing them to each other, I wouldn't let Reiner, Anky or Gal ride my horse. Of course none of them would want to.

[khall]

I’m curious why not RK? I loved the fact he would ride in a snaffle in the warm up in the days prior to a show. I also appreciate that he was successful as an eventer and straight dressage like his daughter Ingrid ( I saw IK go cc at WEG 2010. Spectacular cc round)

Now yes I could understand Anky and EG. Mark did tell me that RK lost his piaffe on Ahlerich and went to NO to help him with it.

I just still remember watching him do the one time changes after winning gold in ‘84

https://youtu.be/UbLXpW5-DG0

Yes RK was very German but I also remember how upset he was about the RK that was creeping in at the time with NIchole U and Remmi.

I also remember the pas de deux with Marzog and Ahlerich and the pas de troix. Of course this was way before the kur was in competition. These were the best at the time horses and riders. Now of course the horses are bred for so much more movement though who knows if that is necessarily a good thing.

I also remember Matador and Kyra K. And the Bartels etc. long ago history!

[Tanga]

Oh, hypermobility is a HUGE discussion. And you know what? There is going to be little to no real research into it because that's not where the money is. You make a lot more money on breeding and selling horses that "naturally" doing dressage, even though the world literally means TRAINING! Argh. And when they don't last, the money is in vet care, products, and buying new horses.

Chisamba, I kind of agree with you about RK. I think the adulation is from the history of driving a quiet, happier ride back when versus German "crank and spank." When people say he is better than that what is happening now, they have no clue. I think it's more just sticking with the old gods must be admired. But, khall, the video of the one tempis reminds us of the good this to admire. There is no reason a horse with the talents for the ones shouldn't be able to do that.

If you look at a lot of those old rides, and I so remember the older ones, the level of difficulty just wasn't there. They did the movements, but didn't have the extra collection and engagement we see so much of now. Which brings me back to IW and her going "back" to that--skipping the extra collection and engagement like it used to be and being so highly rewarded.

And I would let any of them ride my horses! It would be fascinating. I don't think a single one would hurt the horse (though if they tried to crank and spank Quinn, she might hurt them!)

It's a very interesting discussion as to the true nature of dressage. Has it just become about breeding? Robert Dover did a Zoom interview for CDS and they asked him my question about it being OK to push horses to the highest level so quickly be because they do it naturally negating the true time it really takes to condition and train the horse to the work. He masterfully sort of danced around it saying the horses were really nice, and that the genie is never going back in the bottle, so it is what it is.

[Chisamba]

RK was a very pushy rider in the crank and spank tradition. He yanked upward with his hands often, his horse dropped on the forehand in all collected work (obviously why he kept yanking up) there was no sit behind.

Yes that is why the quiet relaxed sit in the next generation of winners was so attractive. But in the way that pendulums swing they lost something too.

In the ' old days' the pirouette was not actually a collected move, it was more of a spin on the haunches as one might use to get out of trouble. Whether you prefer the six strides of pirouette done now, or not, RK could neither pirouette or piaffe on Ahlrech and won anyway.

Now the pendulum swings again to where quiet obedience is shunned and mistakes are forgiven for sparkle and named riders back to the RK generation

[blob]

I don't know that I agree that IW's horses break down. Bella Rose was 18 in this past olympics and looked as good and sound as she ever has. And Weihegold is 18 now and ranked #4 globally--so while I haven't seen him go recently, I doubt he is unsound with that ranking.

[Tanga]

Chisamba I saw RK IN LA Riding Biotop. He got WAY overscored for a horse that he could not take on the bit. Apparently the horse was super sensitive and would blow. When I mentioned it to some Europeans in a discussion, they were all a huffy. I think at the top levels some basic incorrectness is forgiven, but in all, I think the trend is all towards quiet obedience versus actually doing the work in correct engagement is the trend.

Blob--Disagree. Bella Rose has been off and irregular for a long time. I have never seen her really sound. Look up any video, and there is always something at least unlevel and weird going on behind. On all of the comments about that horse, the Europeans constantly complain the horse is lame. Weihegold is a mare is is "sound," but never really engages, so it's hard to say if she's sound when she doesn't sit in p/p and flings her head up and down in pirouettes. The Europeans aways comment about her horses being like a "bathtub." Took me awhile to figure out they mean they are all dropped in the back. And, yes, horses can be at the top globally d be unsound. I remember watching Rusty get the gold in the Olympics in Spain, I believe, and the horse was clearly lame throughout, unlevel. The problem at the very top is that the people at the very top will win no matter what if they are "supposed to."

[Moutaineer]

I'm stuck at home not feeling well with time on my hands, so I've been watching quite a lot of last week's show.

I'm not a big fan of freestyles, I must admit. I dont really understand the scoring, and they've got to be Charlotte level good to grab my attention, so I've mostly been watching the other stuff, and I still have more to go...

The scoring hasn't been that high, I dont think, for this week at any rate. Mostly in the 6 and 7 range, with very few 8s that I've seen, but a fair sprinkling in the 2 to 5 range, mostly for obviously muffed movements.

What stands out to me are the movements that are consistently poorly scored. Collected walk garners more 5s than any other score, it would seem, across all the FEI levels. Walk pirouettes are seldom correct and are rightfully dinged. Rein backs are pretty universally horrible. Halts are iffy.

When you look at how tightly grouped the scores are at the winning end of these classes, you'd think it would be worth spending some time and effort to get these movements to at least 7 status.

Beats me.

[Tanga]

Mountaineer--I think you're right on. I haven't been watching much, but I see it in general in judging. It seems like they won't give 8's unless you're the top of the world, and I see this at ALL levels at all shows. I don't like this. I think most horses have 8's in them, and many have 9's, and the judges don't seem to want to give them anymore. I don't like that at all.

And I agree on the halts and backs, esp. at GP! From personal exp. the halt can be rough to get if the horse anticipates, but the halt and back is a lot easier. WHY people don't work on that I don't get. But I also horses not halting and backing braced and mouth open still getting 6's, so why should they bother to work a lot?

I have been working on those little "throwaway" scores to bump this up. there are quite a few single flying changes where most judges will give a 7 (never 8, though) most of the time. So I work on making sure they are as forward and up as I can.

It will be interesting to see what Steffen looks like. I think he will be showing there soon. He says he's got Suppenkaspar's p/p pretty straight now. He and Adrienne and Sabine are revving up for the WC, so might be fun.

[demi]

Ive been watching last weeks shows, too. It’s nice to see the individual scoring while it’s happening. I think it’s a good way to develop the eye. Plus it’s pretty entertaining to watch from the comfort of my couch with a dog and cat or two curled up next to me.

[Moutaineer]

I'm halfway through the short World Cup GP class at the moment. Interesting.

[Tanga]

https://horsesdaily.com/article/adrienn ... I3MY5RJC9g
Adrienne Lyle