Interesting topic

[khall]

B

[Moutaineer]

As with many things, its a matter of balance and finesse really, though, isn't it? Don't block your horse, but don't let it run away with you.

[Chisamba]

I am a forward into contact woman. The implication that forward is rushing and that contact is heavy is ignorant bullshit.

However Baucher was not comparing his second method to other riders, but to his own first method. Initially as a trainer using his own first method he used so much strength to create balance his assistant would have to wrap his legs in soaked cloth he was in so much pain. So he created his second method. Which is leg without hand and hand without leg. His comparison was to himself.

With forward onto contact the horse should be taught not to go through the contact, just to the contact. If you add leg in any version, either for lateral or for energy, if your horse gets heavier in the hand, it went through the contact . So my whole test if balance, and I am talking about me, you do you, is I ad leg fir any reason and the horse should understand that the ideas is to adjust its balance, not get heavier. The release or lightness cones from the horse giving the correct response. Jmho

[Chisamba]

If I am driving from Florida to New Jersey and I get lost in DC, I don't want to go back to Florida to get to Jersey. So I tend to adjust my journey based on where I came from and where I am going, I don't really care to get involved in a thousand arguments about the hundred different ways to get from Florida to Jersey. OK, OK, I admit I might take several circuits in DC til I find my way to the end.

For the purpose of this metaphor, Florida is the green horse, DC is third level, and Jersey is Grand Prix,

[khall]

Chisamba it’s not just getting heavy but tension and brace in the bridle as well. I think this is similar to your musings on how to deal with the tension you were having in your training. Like our previous discussion you kept doing whatever movement ( my example was SI your was CC) until the horse softened relaxed in the movements. We don’t change our asking. Our aids stay the same. At least mine do until the horse accepts and softens in the movement.

In some training methods and in showing I do see where forward is at the expense of balance. Not saying that is your method at all. The method or path I follow addresses work in the bridle early on with wih and flexions. Not many training schools do this wih. So this explanation speaks to me. For example in the beginning training of lateral work Cedar has us slow the trot down to allow for better balance but as they become proficient in the movements add energy. Even to the point of pushing for mediums in the movements.

There was also a recent discussion here on transitions within the lateral movements. That is a good way to enhance the balance within the movements because it requires the hind leg to keep engaged within the transition or you lose the lateral exercise.

Again this explanation speaks to me. Thinking of the balance of the horse which is addressed depending on what we are feeling under our seats at the time.

Edited to add yes I’m aware of the two Baucher schools and how and why they differed.

I also want to say there is absolutely a time where forward is necessary to enhance the balance. Or should I say energy. One cannot have true collection without that energy. Why I see such a problem in the training of Bent Branderup if anyone knows who he is.

[exvet]

To me it seems to be that swinging pendulum with two vectors at play. Sometimes you have to push over the edge of one, to push past a resistance in the other and then bring them back to or offer the 'easier' happy medium of relaxation with power or seen another way, without losing power......so yes for a few moments you may be over tempo. I believe that if the rider recognizes it and uses it to help clarify a point or reach an end goal with a more black and white approach it isn't all bad. Of course, as we ride and train, we hope that the swing in the pendulum has lesser and lesser of an arc to one direction or the other, ie we maintain perfect balance through balancing our aids [perfectly], but we also must keep in mind that at the very bottom of that arc, if there is no energy there is no movement.

I too am a forward into contact person especially since I have often ridden horses with a genuinely (based on conformation from birth) short neck. I have to try very hard to not pull back or shorten the neck by taking the opposite approach. I have over achievers who have a tendency to take the request of forward and rush or run and become very tense through the back but then it's my responsibility to close that door and recycle the energy all the while using my seat, breath and metronome in my head to change the speed into simply power that amplifies the gait instead of allowing it to flatten and run like we're at the race track. so I guess the way I see it is that the onus is on me to properly ask for forward and use my seat aids to also prevent the all-out escape of energy and running from happening, sometimes I'm successful and sometimes no but I don't stop trying, For me forward is more power building than speed building. If I keep that in mind, I tend to be more successful at achieving what I want (still using hand and leg in the right proportions for the moment/time and horse).

The problem with this is that the horse never really catches his balance in the excessive forward, and instead becomes heavier and heavier in the contact, tense in the back, and short in the neck, resulting in excessive leg moving action and false frames that we tend to see a lot of in dressage rings.

I don't believe in no hand per se. My opinion is if there is absolutely no hand then the horse considers the no hand as a reward of heaviness or too much tension and the energy all ends up running out the front end. Instead, i use my fingers to have that conversation with the horse to lighten the feel on the bit but there are also times when I want more horse on the bit depending on the movement and especially what the next movement is going to be (as in I just asked for a half-halt).

I did try this approach of 'no hand' while working through the flying changes yesterday; but, it was after really working Junior through both reins at the canter and then keeping the gas pedal on as I asked for the change. Once he gave me a huge jump through which was clean though he was slightly above the bit in front I repeated the exercises with contact and request that he remain true to the bit and through and over the back. We did seem to have a bit of a light bulb moment in terms of what I wanted and his understanding of the same. I guess I'll know relatively soon if this was the correct approach but what I will say repeating the exercise in succession simply was developing a runaway horse who was getting too worried about the FC transition. Fortunately Junior and I have enough of an understanding that my verbal cues are enough to keep him from truly becoming panicked. So while I needed no hand for A MOMENT, the hand needed to be there within the next in order to keep the energy in the correct direction.

[blob]

I too am a forward into contact person and I too believe that the notion that this results in tension or being on the forehand is bullshit. Can it result in tension and being on the forehand? Of course, but so can throwing away your contact.

I don't think self-carriage = not being in the hand or in contact.

Most of the horses that are very light in front and not forward into the hand are, in my experience, not really through the back. They might be active behind and they might be 'round' in the neck, but the back is dropped and that is why they are broken up and very light/no contacty in the hand. This is not what i'm going for, I want to feel a cycle of energy from hind end up, up through the back, and into the hand.

[khall]

And I want to feel self carriage in that the horse releases to the bridle elevates out of the base of the neck and does not rely on the reins for their balance. I do not want equal weight in both reins but more in the outside rein which is the collecting rein. When the shoulders come up the hind legs have a place to go. Shorten the base of the horse but keep the top line long and not compressed and the hind legs active.

I use a multitude of exercises to help me achieve these goals. Lateral work being one of the mainstays or cornerstones. Especially the lateral work where the horse is moving into the bend. I do not want bracing or tension in the contact. I want a mobile jaw and the ability to have supple flexion atlas/C1. That lifting of the sling allows for the hind legs to engage in the movements. I also want my horse to be willing and able to follow that rein down when allowed or depending on my seat to be able to uberstreiken on inside or both reins.

I also use the piaffe work to teach the posture of collection. The diagolization in the walk puts the horse in the proper posture of collection. Activate that diagolized walk for piaffe.

Other classic collecting exercises is transitions skipping a gait the almost walk but stay trotting and RB. I do have to admit this is all much easier on an Iberian than a WB. The WBs with their slower twitch muscles and coolness to the aids they just are not the most firey of horses. At least mine are not.

Mark taught the bridle work first and foremost to all the horses. That’s what I’ve been learning now for well over 10 years that stems from NO

I guess my question to those who use forward to the contact would be is forward always the answer when you have an issue? Or do you rebalance the horse in other ways? Btw I don’t consider leg without hand no contact but that the contact is not activated. The feel is there unless I’ve released the rein as a check. I want the horse to release to the rein so they can step in with the hind leg. If there is tension or brace the hind leg is blocked.

I was working Juliet in hand the other day. She was having issues in the right rein sticky in her jaw bulging in the right shoulder with the left hind unable to step under CM. Rather than address her left hind I addressed her right jaw. I held that rein until she released to it and lifted off that right shoulder then I kept the contact until that release went all the way to her feet. You could feel how she got lighter in her foot movement because she had elevated out of the base of the neck and stop the brace and block allowing the action of the rein all the way to her feet. This is a large mare who when asked to activate the hind legs bulls through the contact yet once she yielded to the rein the feet were able to be lighter and step more correctly. I corrected the issue with the rein only in the wih. If I had been on her I would have used a lateral movement probably renvere or HI to address the issue again requiring her to release to that right rein so that she could do the movement.

[Chisamba]

I went to visit the Cadre Noir on the late seventies in the same trip that I visited the Spanish Riding school. The Cadre Noir tremendously relies on L'Hotte who was a direct pupil and reputed to be even berrer than his ' master' Boucher. But he was not a circus trainer, but actually a military cavalry rider, so he blended what he knew from FRdlG and Boucher and made a method of forward, straight and calm. I found their riders superb, the horses impressed me and they were much more practical than the SRS where the poor horses live in a basement, and see the sun for two minutes crossing the city street into the hall. ( yes they have more appealing summer quarters). But I trail ride gallop do. Poles and an occasional jump so the French school appealed.

BUT, they do not put dowm forward.

They admire and use Francois Robichon La Guérinière who is also the forefather of the Spanish Riding school. And use his systematic training and shoulder in to develop balance.

And nowhere do you see high wide hands, over flexing, tiny circles and the horses are definitive on the contact.

So when I came to America and said I admired French training I had not yet been exposed to the French light, the endotapping, the double bridles on green horses and green riders doing endless over flexed tiny circles, the high headed dropped backs that I have seen with my own eyes and at clinics that pass as the American bastardized version of French riding.

I have not seen Cedar so I am not including her in my scathe. I use Andrea Velas who was the pupil of a trainer that I do not admire. So I do not include Cedar or Khall in my dismay at the examples of French riding I see in the USA. Le Hotte was better than Boucher, Andrea is better that Belasik (IMHO). And I hope for the sake of Khall that Cedar is better than her source.

Anyway. These ' interesting topics often become defensive. A discussion about why each of us is right and what is wrong with the other. This is not interesting to me. It's easier to compare yourself favorably with the worst of others. I feel like I want to be the best of myself. If I need a bit of French in my life I go to Le Hotte who understood that forward is not a swear word. And that calm and straight horses are a pleasure to ride. He didn't waste time putting others down, he included as much as he could and Damn he could do it well, the best of all influences.

I am mostly SRS because that was my source and grounding. But I gallop, jump, do poles and many things that are not SRS. Those are influenced by the Cadre Noir and Le Hotte. Mostly because he was perfectly OK with blended and moderate riding methods.

As always. My opinion. And while I'm about it, if I am not prepared to change my opinion from time to time, I am no longer open to learning.
And there are a thousand ways to get from Florida to New Jersey, and a thousand different vehicles to use on the journey. It even perfectly useful to decide half way through your trip that you want to stay in the Carolinas. If you are kind, methodical and happy, whatever vehicle you use and whatever road you take is part of your journey and ok.

[Ponichiwa]

One of these days I want to see the ideal self-carriage comparison picture executing an extended trot instead of piaffe. But no, they're always using good = piaffe (usually some Iberian horse), bad = Olympic passaging horse or extended trot (usually but not always a warmblood). I'll give the linked post above props that at least it wasn't a grainy picture of Olivera and was actually a woman this time.

/rant

For a driving metaphor, there's a benefit to not stomping on the accelerator when the parking brake is on (unless you're trying to execute a J-turn). And the horses do appreciate clear and not contradictory aids. However, you need to be able to say "Go-- but not that much go" or "halt-- but not that much halt" on a regular basis, which means you are using opposing aids. And that's how you get all the fun dressage work.

[khall]

I am not saying I am right I am saying what works for me. I agree with you on the legerte especially PK work. That is not what I’m going foror what I’ve been taught. For the record Mark did not like the work of PK for the same reason you spoke of the French samure training. Nor does this work come from Besalik but from NO. Mark was a stickler about riding with a long neck sometimes to the detriment of advancing but what he did do was the lateral work on bending lines that you do not see in many other training. Cedar learned from JP Giacomini who worked with NO. We do not do endotapping here at the clinics. Not my thing. We do work on in hand work including piaffe and SW and of course US. Cedar has a remarkable eye for both rider and horse. I feel very blessed to learn from her.

Here is Cedar riding a tricky Iberian I think he was still a stallion here

https://youtu.be/p3SY7JUGWlU

Super lovely horse that she felt was NQR physically. He scored well when he showed FEI. Love that sooty buckskin color! Like Saiph:)


The Valenca’s also worked with NO and Anja Beran her trainer worked with NO. The in hand work and jaw flexions are the foundation of this work. If you saw Cedar work piaffe she is a master at it. The timing of the aids the details of it and you see the horse transform in front of you. Yet she also stretches the horse after piaffe. Absolute elevation is not part of the work we do which is where you get the high hands and dropped sling. Chisamba I don’t know where you got the idea that we don’t stretch in our work. I think I shared a video of Joplin stretching in one of the latter clinics. Cedar stretches as did Mark WTC. What Cedar is better about than Mark is the more advanced work. She pushes that a bit more. Because she rides and trains several that are at FEI and GP.

If you sat and watched the Valenca’s you would see progression of this work up to the airs. Which you usually only see at one if the 4 ecoles

I have seen 3 of the 4 ecoleslive. The Cadre Noir is the only one I’ve never seen live. My initial introduction to dressage long ago was SRS and Rochavanski. The head rider under Podhaski (sp I’m sure is wrong). And I’ve been around competitive dressage for years. Being able to audit Reiner Klimke before his death and many other big names in the US dressage world. When I found the teachings of NO filtered through his students (with the exception of Bettina who I did not like) it felt like coming home. I ride for the details and relationship and knowledge and not for showing much anymore. At least not at recognized shows. And I’m a bit of a geek about dressage. Which is why I shared the article. I thought it was thought provoking. I’ve certainly been exposed to the side of dressage that this article spoke of. Crank and spank is another word for it and no I do not think those here on this board follow those methods. I never have. We may have differences in our approach but I think our ideal is very similar.

Ponichiwa CH and Uthopia to me had the best extended trot in the competition arena. Btw I do like CH work and how he develops his horses

https://www.carlhester.co.uk/horses/uthopia-at-stud/

I liked Fuego in 2010 WEG too. Super nice Iberian who could extend as well as the WBs.

[Lipsmackerpony88]

I think this is a great and interesting discussion. I don't personally see anyone directing anything to anyone on a personal level, Khall. I thought Chisamba's posts were well thought out. I don't see her saying you don't stretch?

I think you do a great job, better than others around my area. And I think Cedar is talented.

[khall]

Quote from Chisamba

BUT, they do not put dowm forward

I’m not sure if this was directed at the work I follow. I don’t always follow her posts very well. I just wanted to clarify stretching very much so is part of the work we do and was also referenced in the above article. I’ve seen PK in his early work with younger horses stretch and even with his WB stretch but then he goes back to what I consider to be absolute elevation. Which does drop the horse into the base of their neck. That is not the type of work we do. Though I have on occasion used the reins to help Rip understand how to elevate out of the base of the neck it was not done in a sustained manner. That was the only way he was able to understand piaffe work. Gaila and Joplin are very different. Gaila has no issue with meeting the bridle releasing to the bridle and elevating out of the base of the neck. For one she is not nearly as pushy of a horse as Rip. Neither is Joplin who takes the pressure of piaffe very easily and turns it into active piaffe steps with very little ask from me. She’s easier to motivate than the WBs are.

My philosophy on training horses is to keep it varied but to stay as true to correct biomechanics as one can. That is why I like to play with WE and I like to ride out in my fields. It reminds me of my eventing days. But I also wih on those small circles. I’m not afraid to ask that much from my horses in those rotations. Or being able to walk a small circle left while bent right and vice versa. Keeping on the track. Or counter SI to SI or HI on the circle of varying sizes. Or HI spiral in on the circle and SI spiral out. Or HI half circle to renvere half circle. Doing lateral work on bending lines is a big part of the training we do. Mark taught it and Cedar uses it. This work is found more in the work from NO than from the Germanic or SRS. I know some like MM do not agree with it. One of those roads to Rome we differ. But I strongly feel that the end results are very similar. A light harmonious horse to ride.

[Ponichiwa]

If you know me, you know I'm really big on context. Context is key in evaluating whether a training system is a fit for you and your horse.

Is your horse: Hot, with an upright neck and naturally quick tempo? Probably the "take the forward away from the equation if things get tense" school is a good fit for you, as your horse needs to learn to breathe and relax into the work. NB: maybe don't take all the forward away or you may create a powderkeg.

Is your horse: half-asleep most of the time, with a naturally consistent and/or slower tempo? May need to jazz that animal up to generate enough oomph to do the work. Taking the forward out of the equation may come with soporific effects. With a horse like this, lots of stretching may end up looking like a breed-show pleasure class.

And, naturally, most horses exist somewhere on the spectrum between those two bookends and benefit from borrowing out of each playbook (judiciously, to fit the problem at hand and the horse that came out of the crossties that day).

Again, though, my hackles always go up with the pictures involved. It's always an imbalanced discussion from the get-go. Always a piaffe photo (with loose reins, often without a helmet because #classical) on the side of Good, and one of the following for Bad:
- Horse in downbeat of the canter ("LOOK HOW DOWNHILL!")
- Horse clearly in warmup (see above)
- Current/recent international competition pairing in passage ("LOOK HOW OUT BEHIND THE HOCKS ARE!")
- Current/recent international competition pairing in extended trot ("LOOK HOW TIGHT THE REINS ARE")

I mean. That's not a very sporting comparison. We can at least all agree on that, right?

Hester is famously Germanic in his background (Bechtostheimer) and not particularly French- or Iberian-inspired. I do agree that he trains some nice horses that appear happy in their work.

[Tanga]

I'm just writing a response. I didn't read anything in detail, so this is just my overall observation. The hardest thing to do is truly ride forward into a correct contact. At the highest levels, that forward goes up (in the whither, neck, front end.) Everything is not fixed with forward, but it sure helps a lot.

Every time I think I "finally" got it, six months later I realize how little I knew. Lately, I have been all about forward, up, light round contact so the horses are coming up through the back and neck and sitting and flexing behind. And then I got to shows and just ask for quiet and steady and hope I get something in between!

In noticing the way showing is going lately (from watching the top of the top, Wellington, local shows, scribing and riding) it's all about quiet and no bobbles, and the true correct engagement is not there a lot. It's more slow and held together. I see more and more "top" horses doing very will with flat, dropped backs and flat, upright necks, even in "piaffe." I've had this discussion with several judges in the last year I was scribing for. I will use Isabel because she is easiest. ALL of her horses are like this. Osinski said, but she is super steady and has great transitions. I said, yeah, because she avoids the essence and difficulty of the movement by not having true collection. he didn't respond after that. Schmutz rolled his eyes and agreed with me and said the whole "international" judging is an issue.

To sort of relate to the things I skimmed, I think we all have the right idea. Forward is not fast or out of control, but carrying and balanced more. What I see being rewarded is "balance" and steadiness over the correctness of taking the chance to true engagement and having a little unbalance, so I see a lot of "collection" that is really slow and not engaged. My thought is, if you can't do the opposite of what you are asking for pretty easily, you don't have it. So if you can't go from piaffe to ext. trot or opposite, the horse isn't truly engaged. If you can't go from pirouette to ext. canter or opposite, you're not truly engaged. I try to "test" myself with this all of the time and work on conditioning the horses to be able to do it easily. (Oh, and I have been trying to conscientiously put in more stretches after this correct work.)

[blob]

And I want to feel self carriage in that the horse releases to the bridle elevates out of the base of the neck and does not rely on the reins for their balance. I do not want equal weight in both reins but more in the outside rein which is the collecting rein. When the shoulders come up the hind legs have a place to go. Shorten the base of the horse but keep the top line long and not compressed and the hind legs active.

I don't think anyone who believes in forward into the hand expects that a horse should rely on the reins for balance unless the horse is very green and then I think the horse needing some help with balance is understandable. And sure, if I am on a bending line or doing lateral work, I do want more weight in the outside rein. And I do want ot be able to test that i can put my inside hand forward on a circle and maintain bend. But that does not mean I am not riding for forward into contact. I do not think riding forward into contact means you are holding the horse together with your hands. Also there are definitely times when I absolutely want equal pressure in my reins because i want my horse very straight--doing an extended trot across the diagonal, for example.

I guess my question to those who use forward to the contact would be is forward always the answer when you have an issue? Or do you rebalance the horse in other ways?

Foward into contact doesn't mean running the horse off its feet. It means creating a cycle of energy and that cycle means sometimes you are asking for more sit and wait and other times you are asking for more forward and and up and out. I think it is overly simplistic to say lack of forward is the root of all problems, but in some ways it is because forward is so foundational. And here I do really mean infront of the leg, not fast. If the horse is not in front of the leg, can he have correct bend? no. If he's not in front of the leg can have correct contact? No. If he's not in front of the leg can he be adjustable? no. If he's not infront of the leg can he have a correct and rebalancing half halt? No, not really. I think it's easy for people to equate forward into the hand with crank and spank. but I don't think that's what most of us really mean. I think we mean that when ask for energy, we are cycling that energy through contact rather than letting it go out an open door and into the wind.

[khall]

Tanga I really liked the last videos you shared of your rides and think you are successful in what you are trying to get in the show atmosphere.

I’ve not watched much dressage since the Olympics but having seen IW in person and badly wanting to yank her off her horse at tat time I’m not a fan. The reason I enjoy CH is because he came from an eventing background and regularly rides his horses out keeping the arena work to 4 days a week. He also is willing to ride the not so talented ones and do well with them. Plus his horses go out and live horsey lives. All I appreciate in an international rider. Same for Uta Graf. I also do not see the ego with CH that IW has. Or the huge drive of CD. CH seems to do so because he really enjoys the training process.

This is another rider that I enjoy watching. He has beautiful Iberian horses and is just pushing the envelope all the time!

https://www.facebook.com/10000647320374 ... 18853/?d=n

Blob the biggest difference between the training I’ve studied and what you are describing is that the bridle work when done correctly gives you a horse that is not blocked with tension or brace so that they become forward. That was invaluable with Rip who is large and not the most energetic of horses and did not take that confrontation of leg very well. SF has similar issues with Tesla. Yet the better they get in the bridle from the attention to the release of the jaw and release to the bridle the more willing they become. Straightness and balance also plays a part in the willingness to go forward.

Just a different way of approaching the work. And if you read my posts I do not think those on this board practice spank and crank nor do I propose riding with no contact.

[blob]

Khall, I looked at videos of the rider you posted that you enjoy watching and I have to admit that from my perspective he is absolutely riding forward into the hand:

https://www.facebook.com/10000647320374 ... 152244616/

to me throughout this video he is riding the horse into a consistent and steady contact. The horse is coming up and into the hand. Forward into the hand might look a bit different for an Iberian horse and a warmblood. But to me this very much looks like an example of froward into the hand. So, I'm curious if you/others see otherwise?

As for the Cedar video you posted in this thread, I must admit I found it very difficult to watch because the camera was moving so much. So I couldn't really focus on or see the riding or the horse clearly.

[khall]

https://www.facebook.com/10000647320374 ... 18853/?d=n

He’s not on the second horse at all.

https://www.facebook.com/10000647320374 ... 12431/?d=n

Still not riding


Please read my post as to why there is a difference

This is Zorro who is now one of the GP horses Cedar rides and did the training on under instruction by JP.

https://youtu.be/kFXPTgvGeeE

[blob]

As you can see from above, I did read your post and I am making an attempt to engage in a dialogue.

I realize he's not riding in some of the videos. But I purposely pulled a video where he was riding a single horse because when I see that video I see a rider who is riding forward into the hand. Do you see something different? If so, I would be curious to know what.

[khall]

Do you think he could do the two horses if he rode as you proposed? The emphasis for this training is on the bridle work so the horse is more willing to go forward not on forward driving aids.

I’ve said Al along that the end results are very similar for the riders on this board in what we want in our riding partners. Just the emphasis and details are different.

That is why I told of Juliet and the work in hand that I did that freed up her feet and lightened her front end so she could then engage with the left hind easier. Does it mean I never use the whip or leg aid? No. It does mean my diagnostics are a bit different.

[Lipsmackerpony88]

I think it's an interesting idea but I hate condemning one school/method over another which I think the original article is doing. I think it's an ugly, tired tactic. I think their is definitely merit to the more French or Iberian methods. But I also do not think that the more German school automatically means crank and spank or unbalanced horses. It happens! Just like there is some people practicing what they think is French classical dressage but it's just a hollow horse. There are always extremes and poor riding, no matter the method.

I try to incorporate what makes sense for my horse. I'm always open to new ideas. My experience with those who follow the French methods hasn't been great, But I think that might just be who I have access to locally. I don't condemn the method as a whole just from a few trainers that I didn't click with.

For me, a more German approach has worked best. But I don't work with anyone who is too extreme in one method or another. And I still have appreciation for other methods.

[khall]

Lsp I don’t think so. I think it is condemning poor training practices not one approach over the other. And more of a condemnation of what has happened in especially international dressage ( though we’ve seen a move away from the extreme RK to some degree) think of the blue tongue video or of EG at Aachen with the horse in a pretzel or what IW at WEG in 2010 ( I doubt her riding practices have changed too much) I truly do not think this article applies to any here on the board and how they train. I would not have posted it if I thought it targeted riders here though apparently others have thought differently.

I want to quote Mark from his original book and why the approach I’ve spent years learning is a bit different

“ relaxation of the horse starts at the front. The jaw is the key that unlocks the body and opens the mind to accept relaxation. “.

We always started in hand asking the jaw releases

[blob]

Do you think he could do the two horses if he rode as you proposed? The emphasis for this training is on the bridle work so the horse is more willing to go forward not on forward driving aids..

I must admit that I'm not sure I agree with this or understand it. People who come from a more German school of thought do in hand work all the time. Why does the fact that he's not riding the horse mean it's not being worked forward into the connection? The driving aid doesn't need to be leg, it doesn't even need to be strong. It's just that the goal is for the energy to be harnessed into contact. And I think that is being done even when the horse is being worked in hand. And so, yes, I do think he could do what he is doing if he rode as I proposed.

I hope this conversation is still an interesting topic for you. The internet is tricky and it's not always easy to read tone. But I am genuinely interested in the debate and the conversation. And I hope the same goes for you.

[khall]

Blob the in hand work done by German masters is very different than the in hand work like Mark and Cedar utilize.

I’ve audited AK and I really liked him but the in hand work done was so simplistic compared to what Mark Cedar and the Valenca’s do.

[Chisamba]

I agree with LSP about the tone of the first article.

When people quote incredibly common the mantra of "speed is the enemy of forward". What are they talking about?

I do not have the desire or energy to discuss a concept with someone who only reads to disagree. On the other hand I would like to share an understanding it has taken me a few decades to understand.

.. A) forward into contact is a goal that is rarely perfect.

B) Forward and impulsion relate to the activity of the hind end as it relates to the front end. It is proportionate. It describes length of stride behind, lowering of hips and pelvis, and how long the hind foot remains on the ground. It does not always look the same. It may differ from horse to horse and even on the same horse.

C) Contact describes the way the horse receives the activity of the hind end in front to complete the circle of energy in balance. There are too many things that reflect on contact to describe simply, but the goal is no increase in weight or tension with increased forward.

So finally The combination of forward into contact is a permeable balance.

When I say I ride forward into contact, this is the goal I am aspiring to. Permeable balance.

To demonstrate forward I used to demonstrate with Kea how to walk toward the base of a 4 foot jump, and jump it or not jump it but piaffe instead. The observer was supposed to guess which I was going to do. Of course often I would do the opposite as soon as they guessed lol. None of my current horses are there yet, but it is my goal for them to get there.

[Chisamba]

On an amusing side note, my working student taking a lesson on Kea made the mistake of walking up to a giant triple combination without bothering to tell her not to jump.

On a less amusing note, 4 foot jump is no longer in my vocabulary. Maybe a 2'6.

[blob]

Blob the in hand work done by German masters is very different than the in hand work like Mark and Cedar utilize.

I’ve audited AK and I really liked him but the in hand work done was so simplistic compared to what Mark Cedar and the Valenca’s do.

Maybe, but again I'm comparing not to Mark or Cedar but to the videos you shared and to me that work is absolutely about working the horse forward into contact

I also wouldn't consider the SRS in hand work simplistic as the horses do everything they do in hand that they do under saddle.

[piedmontfields]

[quote="Ponichiwa"]One of these days I want to see the ideal self-carriage comparison picture executing an extended trot instead of piaffe. But no, they're always using good = piaffe (usually some Iberian horse), bad = Olympic passaging horse or extended trot (usually but not always a warmblood). I'll give the linked post above props that at least it wasn't a grainy picture of Olivera and was actually a woman this time.
/rant

So true. Of course we know no one does this because (most) Iberian horses wouldn't look that compelling in an extended trot, just as the longer WB is (usually) less compelling in piaffe.

There are some thoughtful comments in this thread, but it also on the verge of a religious Racinet moment, so I'm not that inclined to dive deep give the limitations of reading and writing.

[khall]

I thought it might be interesting to have a discussion on the different roads to Rome. Obviously that has not happened here and the thread has become too contentious to continue with. That is ok. I’ll step back and let it die.

[Ponichiwa]

Will own that my tone is often too sharp for these conversations, especially given that training choices are very personal. I am sorry if I've come off too flippant for serious discussion.

I do think there have been great and substantive commentary above (not my contributions, obvs) but think that we are not speaking a common language re: what does "into the contact/hand" actually mean. I also confess to not knowing all the acronyms or backstory behind some of these posts-- is AK "Arthur Kottas"? And I'm definitely not familiar with the relative complexity of the in-hand work that you're referencing, Khall.

It's interesting to me how different my approach to training has to be to meet different horses where they are. A trainer I took a clinic with once said that he buys horses that he knows will work in his system (and he's been very successful with that). I tend to buy horses I like and then have to re-work my approach based on what works for the horse. My current guy is a trier, but not naturally self-propelled. Standing flexions do not translate well to the rest of the work. What does translate well is anything that gets his hind up underneath his centerline (i.e. turns on the haunches, lots of transitions, SI/HI on bended lines). A similar approach to my hot hot hot mare would have overcooked her and ended up lawn-darting me.

Just advocating for pragmatism.

[Chisamba]

I spent quite a bit of thought and effort on the phraseology and description of forward, contact and forward into contact.

Not even a question, a comment, a qualification? Anyone?

OK. I will ask questions.

What does a super ride feel like to you.

What are you appreciative of in your progress.

What makes you question yourself. Because IMHO if you don't ask yourself questions you probably are no longer learning.

[Chisamba]

I'm putting this here in different comment because I think the thought has merit but distracts perhaps from the discussion.

I am a bit of seeker. I believe I need help and instruction but have not always found it. I too often find someone who wants me to change everything like it's a religion rather than point me in the right direction.

Anyway I have been to many clinics. Many. Riding mostly and auditing occasionally. There were only 3 where I got off my horse and left mid lesson and swore never to inflict that on myself or my horse again.

I have never needed to defend my horse in a clinic with Spanish Riding school clinician.

On one occasion the well respected classically trained bit manipulating in hand working fsbuloso maestro elevated my horses neck, she didn't chew enough I guess but suddenly they slammed all their weight into the reins forcefully sending the horse backwards. The horse went a few strides and stopped at which point the clinician started kicking her in the chest. The horse struck back, and the clinician told me to whip her. At this point I removed myself and my horse.

The other time was less traumatic but involved sore backs and over flexed lateral posture.

I do inhand work with ever horse every week. I even do some bit acceptance work in hand. I do not spend as many hours at it as those who are really good, like Khall and ( I am sorry the name evades me, but the person who uses Karen R technique). Why? Because I like riding and to me that once I have reached a certain point I can do more riding than in hand. That's my skill set.

I often though of I broke a hip or couldn't go astride anymore I'd probably take up driving.

So this comment is very personal. The most negative experiences I have had in my life of training were at the hands of pro lightness, " French" and " classical".

Even bad forward into contact was not as horrible as bad " classical".

[khall]

Thanks for your post ponichiwa I appreciate it. I knew though early on when I had two posters saying this is just BS it was not going to go well. Yes AK is Arthur Kottas. I really enjoyed auditing his clinic in Alpharetta. Lovely man and I liked his approach but would not pay the $300 to ride with him. His wih consisted of SRs caveson and lunge line to do some piaffe work. Extremely simplistic with none what I consider to be bridle work. Mark and Jillian Kreinbring have done the most bridle work for those who I’ve directly worked with. It is very detailed and diagnostic. Cedar’s wih is a bit different but also diagnostic and detailed re the horse’s balance.

Mark believed in working the horse front to back in that he used the bridle work to unblock the horse so the horse could more easily go forward and stay released aka soft in the contact. Cedar is more about the balance and addressing straightness specifically. Because if the horse is on his right shoulder for example it will block the horse from being able to step under. Straight before collection

Maybe I should have discussed the 4 ecoles and their differences. So far out of the ones I’ve seen live I preferred the Portuguese school. I do like the long rein demo from the SRS which is the closest work to the wih I’ve learned. It was interesting to watch the Valenca’s train the capriole. They did it a bit different than SRS using terre terre before the jump not piaffe. I did not get to see them work the courbette but they do have a horse that does it and showcased it at the Golega horse fair with Master Luis.

I did tell Cedar one day that Joplin could probably do one of the airs. I got her a bit balled up doing piaffe and she sank back on her HQs and kept in the air. Not to drag me around just to release that energy. She did a beautiful levade with Cedar the first time we pushed for piaffe rather than just diagnolizing.

[khall]

Chisamba my best rides is where my thought becomes my horse’s actions. Why I prefer a more sensitive horse and I try to train my less sensitive ones to be more sensitive. I do appreciate your pov. I’ve more than once have complimented you in the work you do with your horses. You know what you are doing and get good results but as you say we all are still learning. If we aren’t learning we are dead.

I miss the detail of the bridle work Mark did. Jillian is close. But she is very difficult to catch up with. While I had done a bit of wih before meeting Mark nothing compared to his mastery of the work. He was like a body worker when he put his hands on the horse. I will never have that feel partly because Mark put his hands on many many horses as he did his clinics and partly because he also studied Tai Chi and I don’t. The horses adored him and would gravitate towards him. The only other trainer I’ve seen that has that energy (and I adore Cedar. She does this because she loves horses) was Frédérique Pignon. Talk about an almost religious moment auditing him. He connected so deeply with the horses with such empathy. Amazing.

I took a leap to ride with Mark the first time. I usually prefer to audit first but I’m glad I took the chance. I had gotten burned out with the trainers I had worked with having similar experience of just wrongness. Aggressive training that was not making my horses or myself happy. I had even stepped away from dressage for awhile going down the NH trail for a bit but the complete lack of correct work in the NH world made me continue my search and is when Mark popped up. So I feel your pain on searching for instruction.

After Mark died I went looking for someone from the NO world. I also tried the Straightness Training on line and worked with the one instructor in the US. Not for me. I also audited Bettina and Col T the head instructor from Cadre Noir and worked with a long time Bettina student. Nothing felt quite right until I found Cedar. She’s got the details I crave and pushes me a bit harder than Mark did. To ge as young as she is she has a very good eye for horse and rider and is very humble. She does this because she loves horses and loves the training and connecting.

Ponichiwa I’m learning the type of horse I prefer to work with is very specific. Does not mean I can’t work with others but Joplin pretty much is my ideal horse:). Sensitive but sensible.

[Chisamba]

I really do want to say that I think we all love our horses. I think we are horsemen enough that our horses do not suffer at our hands or care. We are here because we love the horses love the rising of dressage and enjoy each other's success and commiserate with each others losses.

[Lipsmackerpony88]

I see a lot of great discussion. I'm enjoying and learning from all kinds of points of views.

Discussion doesn't have to always be total agreement. In fact I think discussion is the opposite of that.

Chisamba, my best rides feel like there is good flow to them. Horse is on my aids, coming through the back, to the contact but not hanging.
I question a lot. I tend to not always trust my own feel, unfortunately. I'm always seeking education from many sources.

[demi]

I like the forward into contact type of ride. It’s my goal because it feels good.

A super ride to me feels like I can feel his hind legs with my hands. Like the horse actually steps into my hands. NOT heavy, but that the horse is controlling the power from the hind legs, and if I just move my hands forward a little while I close my legs a little, the horse will lengthen his body and stride. In my mind, the super ride feels like the horse’s length is easily and smoothly adjustable, forward and back, in all the gaits.

I wish I could achieve this. It’s what I aim for. It’s what I saw in the Spanish Riding School. It’s what i see in riders like Kottas and the SRS trainer Lisa Wilcox worked with (can’t remember his name). It requires a lot of fitness from the rider, to be able to sit QUIETLY and still be able to direct the horse easily through the full range of motion.

For me, the two methods of the original post are both valid when done well, but the end result is different, and the difference (in my opinion) is in the contact. It’s like the difference between the contact of the partners in a Tango or a Waltz. Forward into contact is like a tango. (And yes, I know the SRS music is a lot of waltz, but the contact between horse and rider is full and like a tango, to my eyes.

[Ponichiwa]

I accidentally got a levade yesterday thanks to the barn dog popping out of the brush in front of Queso. Would not recommend as a training technique. Although in my mind we both looked very impressive. Like this old shot of Sabine Schut-Kery, but less vertical and more palomino and also very round (both horse and rider, if I'm honest):


There's certainly a place for groundwork, and good groundwork done well can circumvent under-saddle problems before they even become problems. It's also great for diagnosing issues that you can feel but not necessarily see under saddle.

Khall-- can you be a bit more explicit? What do you mean by "bridle work"?

[Chisamba]

I did not say what you do is bullshit. I very clearly said that the criticism of MY TRAINING was bullshit. Just as I never said a thing about stretching. Not even by implication.

I just do not understand the need to create an argument where none existed. Perhaps if you, Khall will explain this, I might feel more, ' pragmatic' in discussion

[Sue B]

Great discussion, you guys!

What makes a great ride? Similar to someone above...it's when I feel like I only have to think what I want the horse to do and he does it. Being able (on my part) to sit so still and so in tune with the horse that he can hear me whisper. I loooove that feeling. In those moments, I don't really think about how much weight is in my hands or how much pressure is required from my legs, or is my seat deep or light. I simply trust that both horse and I are totally in sync, that's enough for me.

Regarding clinicians...I too have had to leave mid-lesson in order to protect my horse. Rudy has always been the trickiest to clinic with because he is so easily offended by those who don't recocgnise his awesomeness (lol) and can progress from shut down to outright aggression. Only one clinician experienced his ramping up to full bore stallion aggression when she failed to listen to me and went too far with her attempts at ground work. I quickly stepped in and he immediately calmed down and I finished the lesson in the saddle. The other more recent event was more because the clinician was yelling, belittling and thoroughly obnoxious. It will be a very cold day in h*** before I ever show or ride under it again. It's funny the way those things go. Another BNT kinda made fun of Rudy when he first walked into the arena (his conformation is unique) but was open to giving productive instruction. They were amazed at the way he transformed over the course of the clinic and many complements were given by the end.

Folks on this board, know their horses very well, are always seeking to learn more/do better, and brave enough to be advocates for their mounts. I have never thought of dressage (or even horse training in general) to be wholly didactic and so I tend to pick up as many tidbits as I can from a variety of trainers and create my own mishmash of training theory. That's why I love these discussions.

[Chisamba]

To me the contact is how I best am able to listen to the horse for input and reply. Therefore, in the way that you would not be able to lead a blindfolded person. through obstacles with a slack line, the contact is reciprocal but not slack.

The bit work that I do is to lift the bit off the bars of the mouth toward the poll and release when the horse raises its neck in a relaxed forward arch and moves its tongue.

I also teach the horse to lower its head if I put my hand on the poll and apply weight.

I will bend the horse while gently holding contact in the right rein. No past the point of the chest. This way the horse learns to bend to the inside rein and accept contact in the outside rein. I may progress do this to stretching or elevated, and I may progress it til the horse brings its shoulder toward the inside of the bend without pushing its haunches out. Obviously I do this in both directions. That is probably the total of in hand bridle work I do.

I enjoy watching people do more.

Once the horse indrstsnds that and has gained a bit of muscle and begun to become equilateral by lunging, I probably do the rest under saddle. Except with Deneb. I only work her in hand.

Respectfully, I think the main difference between me and Khall is that I attempt to involve the whole horse and Khall prefers to address relaxing the mouth and jaw before addressing the whole.

Khall by all means correct me if I misunderstand your process.

[Moutaineer]

The best ride for me is that one where you get that truly elastic contact that feels attached to the power of the hind legs coming up underneath you. You've got a sweet place to sit, and you and the horse are sufficiently in tune that you are in complete control of the forward and back, and sideways, through minute changes in your own body.

That's the rush I strive for

[khall]

I know that chisamba.I did not think the article criticized your training at all. In fact I said if I thought it applied to anyone here on the board I would not have posted it. But I posted what I thought was an interesting article and you and blob called it BS. I knew the thread would not go well.

https://www.facebook.com/10000086155357 ... 60340/?d=n

This is Patrick King who worked with Mark some and goes to the Valenca’s as well. This is similar what Mark would do with every horse.

[blob]

I'm sorry you think this has become contentious, Khall, because I have found this an interesting and civil discussion. All of my posts have come with a genuine desire to engage and to understandd. I have asked questions not because I am trying to trap but because I do truly want to understand why you see that in-hand work differently than I do. If i do not try to understand different perspectives, how will I learn?

To be clear, Chisamba and I did not call the article or anything you said BS. Chisamba said "The implication that forward is rushing and that contact is heavy is ignorant bullshit." and I agreed that the notion that forward = heaviness or rushing is BS because I don't think that it is correct forward. I think heavy and rushing can happen when someone attempts forward into the hand incorrectly. But it's not what should happen or is normally does happen.

[Ryeissa]

This is why I stopped posting and made that comment in the last thread. This is exactly what is not worth it anymore.

Sad to see this getting worse. Many of us have "known" each other for 15 yrs now, and I had hoped this could develop into what the old forum was as far as education.

Khall- We know you lost your trainer Mark and it leaves a very emotional response. Please try to see through that. thanks

[Chisamba]

The best ride for me is that one where you get that truly elastic contact that feels attached to the power of the hind legs coming up underneath you. You've got a sweet place to sit, and you and the horse are sufficiently in tune that you are in complete control of the forward and back, and sideways, through minute changes in your own body.

That's the rush I strive for

This is what I meant when I asked how it feels. I meant literally not emotionally. Can you suddenly actually sit the trot, if you close your eyes can you feel by the contact where you are in space like trusting someone to lead you blindfolded. Do you become aware that the ring is quieter because the horse is so elastic the footfall sounds quieter. If you change the angle of your pelvis does the horse change the angle of its back. These are at actual physical changes I feel. And yes my muscles become tired because of the minute engagement to maintain the sympathetic contact, and balance and step of the hind leg.

[khall]

Ok deep breath. I did not start this thread to criticize ANY of our poster’s training here. If anyone has taken it that way I’m sorry it was not meant to be critical. I just wanted to open up a discussion about the leg without hand hand without leg training. Hell I’m riding the forward and heavy work with Gaila right now. Refer back to how to deal with new found power thread I started. Not something I’m used to especially with the former energy conservationist Gaila.

As for what kind of ride I strive for is that I can use minimal aids just a whisper to be effective. For example to get a half pass just kneel into the inside knee or for a halt pressure onto the stirrups or a RB that the horse comes up to the bridle yields to the bridle and allows the aid all the way to their feet into the back up. Sometimes if it’s perfect it is literally just a thought but obviously that thought is enough to affect my body that the horse feels the aid. It’s why I like Iberians and TBs. They are so sensitive. WBs not as much. I do not feel tired being able to ride this way. The horse’s energy and willingness is such that I don’t have to exert myself like when riding the not so giving ones. Where you have to create the energy first.

Chisamba yes pretty much how I operate. I address the bridle work first. Is the jaw supple will they release to the inside rein. Will they release inward downward. Will they release to the inside filling out the outside rein. How is the occiput/C1 joint? Is that fluid. Can they change that flexion left and right smoothly. Can they extend the neck out and down in that perfect stretch? Can they release to the bridle and into their feet? Can I change their flexion? Can I change their flexion and bend. Can I move their shoulders when they yield to the rein. Then one starts with lateral work. Mark always started with the yielding to the inside rein and the shift off the inside shoulder first and have the horse move away in a SF on big circle starting the focus of inside hind leg stepping under midline. He targeted the inside elbow with the whip so the horse would shift their weight to the outside shoulder and yield away from the handler. The very beginning of lateral work.

This is so the horse has an understanding of the rein aids and how the bridle works before getting on or when it’s remedial it’s fixing the problems like if a horse tilts or is locked on one side of the jaw. Mark and Jillian also used it as diagnostics for the rest of the horse. Mark’s feel was such he could tell if the SI was locked or a hind leg needed addressing. He would often get in there like Manola M and massage or manipulate the leg. He had also been a master farrier and it was not unusual for him to grab a file and address a foot imbalance. There was just so much detail and feel.

Cedar does the wih with an eye towards the performance of the horse. The straightness and balance and the evolution of the posture. She’s extremely good with the timing of the aids to be effective in what she wants to accomplish. She is a very good compliment to continue my learning after the years I worked with Mark.

What we always say about the in hand work is that the posture and aids in hand are just like US. It’s also a bit of a work out for the handler. Especially if you do trot or canter work.

I like knowing if I don’t have all the time to ride I can go wih for 20 minutes and feel like I’ve accomplished something. One summer I spent a good bit of it doing wih in my barn aisle because it was so hot and I don’t have a covered arena. I was surprised at how well Rip went back US with just having in hand work.

[blob]

MM is a horse that naturally wants to be light in the bridle. If she ever feels stiff in the bridle, she usually needs a bump with my leg and then she typically will choose to get lighter, rather than come more into the hand. I admit that right now I am focused on trying to get her to respond to my leg aid differently--come into the hand, rather than lighter. I'm making this change because, like Mountaineer, I think the feeling I am always striving for is feeling the hind end in my hands (not heavily), but that everything is connected. And also because I think sometimes MM evades using her full body by getting lighter rather than through. This is not to say that you cannot have throughness with lightness, but rather that she has learned to trick me.

But Khall, as I think you have also suggested, not every type or breed is going to work and feel the same way. MM's is never going to feel hind end in the hand the way a lot of warmbloods i've ridden might. And I cannot get quality forward by chasing her, the way you can get more forward out of some. With her, I do think you could do some leg without hand work and be effective, but I think hand without leg wouldn't really work unless you were mobilizing at the halt--doing standing flexions.

RP rides like a more traditional sport horse, though he is not a warmblood. He does give that hind in the hands feeling without much effort or work. All I really have to do is pick up the reins and follow with whatever gait (on a good day, at least, lol). With him, leg without hand would not really work at least at this stage, he would get anxious and unbalanced--he is actively look for somewhere to go, even if that contact is light, he craves the consistency of a steady contact even with frame changes he wants the reins to feel the same. But In theory one could do hand without leg maybe.

I think a lot of my questions and comments stem from wondering:
What does leg without hand really look like? Does it mean there is no contact (like bridle-less work?) or does it mean that the two aids are not working in service of each other--hand is working for one thing while leg is working for another?

and what does hand without leg really look like? I understand this in the context of standing flexions and even what you describe above, Khall where you talk about addressing bridle work first. But beyond that, what does it look like in w,t,c? Does it mean that seat is primarily the one giving upwards/forwards aids or does it mean that what are considered driving aids (seat, leg, whip, etc) are not involved?

[Lipsmackerpony88]

"I address the bridle work first. Is the jaw supple will they release to the inside rein. Will they release inward downward. Will they release to the inside filling out the outside rein. How is the occiput/C1 joint? Is that fluid. Can they change that flexion left and right smoothly. Can they extend the neck out and down in that perfect stretch? Can they release to the bridle and into their feet? Can I change their flexion? Can I change their flexion and bend. Can I move their shoulders when they yield to the rein. Then one starts with lateral work. Mark always started with the yielding to the inside rein and the shift off the inside shoulder first and have the horse move away in a SF on big circle starting the focus of inside hind leg stepping under midline. He targeted the inside elbow with the whip so the horse would shift their weight to the outside shoulder and yield away from the handler. The very beginning of lateral work."

Question: does anyone have a good reference of a video of this type of work? I would just type it into Google but we all know that everybody that puts up a video is correct

I think laterally and suppleness wise, this could benefit Lynx. But it would be more adding in to our otherwise normal routine which is more of a ride into the contact (but not heavy.) He also is one that you have to watch doesn't get too light or BTV. So I would use the stuff in a specific way.

Khall, is this something you do before every ride? Or weekly?
And do you think it can integrated into a routine using different methods (German perhaps?)
Thank you