Interesting topic

[Ponichiwa]

The feeling I'm chasing every ride is that elusive, fleeting moment when I can feel any aid going all the way through the horse. Chisamba calls it permeable. The electrical analogy would be no resistance, the fluid analogy is a hose without kinks. Energy can be created (i.e. going from halt to trot) and maintained (collected trot work) or amplified (passage, piaffe, extensions) throughout the entire body without "kinks" dulling the response to the aids (e.g. crookedness, etc.). The onus is on the rider to be as clear with aids as possible -- no flopping or collapsing or getting behind the motion or conflicting aids-- and expect that the horse hold up his/her side of the bargain by reacting to those aids honestly.

The contact forms the boundary. Horse, you go this far, but no further. But in order for it to work, you've got to be right at the edge of this-far-but-no-further, and the horse has to seek it. Otherwise, you're throwing the reins at your horse instead of getting a true stretch. Pushing the elbows forward should result in the horse seeking a longer (but not lower through the base) neck. Elbows back in, the whole horse compresses.

And that whole system only works if the power unit at the back is fired up and activated. Otherwise you get a fruit-rollup neck at the front when you try to compress, but no real change behind the saddle. Or a horse that's miles long in front and behind the saddle but not really compressible on either end.

And to make sure that neither of you are massively frustrated, that means you isolate your aids as much as possible so that you're not shouting STOP and also GO at the same time. If you close your leg, you've got to leave somewhere for that energy to go (upwards is an option that can be chosen for you if you don't give them anywhere else to go). And if your whole body is saying "go", you can't be hauling back on the reins for stop (although the typical mistake is the opposite: the leg says go but the seat/core/elbows say stop)-- that's just not fair to the horse. But it is fair to say "more" and "less" on different strides as you navigate towards "just right".

[khall]

Blob my interpretation is that you don’t use conflicting aids like ponichiwa is saying above. Not that the reins are thrown away. When you have the horse released to the bridle and you ask for more energy you get more brilliance.

Mark was actually more of a blend in the bridle work. But I think it was from the horses and riders he worked with. Most were not traditional serious dressage riders.


This is Lisa Maxwell a student of Racinet. A friend who happens to be my holistic vet saw her work under Jillian during a clinic and was very impressed with her and her horse. Said he even though he was an older Iberian with a previous injury was one of the cleanest as in not needing the acupuncture and chiro horses she had laid hands on. I think she is more closely Baucher than Mark was

https://youtu.be/G-zjXpurSao

Patrick King is another good resource for wih and the jaw releases. He also does video lessons

https://www.facebook.com/10000086155357 ... 60340/?d=n

[khall]

Jillian Kreinbring at JK Inspired is another good source for this work

Here is a link to Mark’s work. He was in the middle of revision of his book when he was killed. His wife finished it up with lots of help from his students
The video was also put together after his death from footage they had been accumulating for the project. His wife put so much work into keeping his teachings out there.

https://www.naturaldressage.com/shop/

The Valenca’s also have an online program. This is where I rode in Portugal

https://www.valencaequestrianacademy.com/

Lsp when you first introduce the standing flexions I do them pretty much every ride. Once the horse gets to the point of the lateral wih I tend to not do those flexions unless I find an issue the horse is having. I do lateral wih before every ride for the most part. Jillian suggests to do this work to engage the postural muscles before the global muscles are engaged. I do the rotations or moving tof and the counter rotations starting with big circles first and as the horse advances the circles get smaller and the angle steeper. The bigger circles is more SF SI on the circle and counter SI.

For me it is a dance of endless possibilities to string together the various lateral movements. I do this so I can watch what the horse is doing that diagnostics and when they are learning they are not having to contend with a rider as they learn.

[khall]

Very good summation here:

https://mariacooke.com/making-sense-of- ... -dressage/

I find it interesting and can see the benefit of both schools of training.

Mark was definitely a blend of the two. While we did focus on the bridle work and wih we also moved forward in our work. Now that may be more because of Rip and Gaila not being the most energetic of horses. He also was a stickler on length of neck

I also think Cedar is a blend with a bit more emphasis on uphill posture and balance.

[Ponichiwa]

Very good summation here:

https://mariacooke.com/making-sense-of- ... -dressage/

I find it interesting and can see the benefit of both schools of training.

Interesting article. There's an implication about 2/3 of the way down in the discussion of contact and connection that balance can be thought of as static in the Baucherist method. How does that work for the green or developing horse?

Specific quote:

Unlike Baucher, who left the balance (once established) virtually unchanged, Steinbrecht frequently shifted the balance of the horse, and seems to have used a consistent contact in part to facilitate this.

[Lipsmackerpony88]

Khall- thanks for sharing the Maria Cooke link. I Don't have time to read the whole thing right now but definitely looks interesting.

Lisa Maxwell work doesn't appeal to me at all- but the others are worth a watch I think. I don't think that style of riding is for me or Lynx at all but I do wonder about some of the very basic flexions/releases and in hand work as part of our ground work. Even if I don't think it's for me, doesn't mean I can't learn or *carefully* explore a bit (with trainer guiding too.)

[khall]

Ponichiwa and lsp I do think you can blend the two. As I said when I edited my post above Mark and Cedar are a blend of the two schools. I’m like you ponichiwa the young horse I don’t think should be ridden or expected to carry the frame of collection but I also believe and use lateral work earlier than what the steinbrect school I think does. I know Anja B uses the lateral work early on as well to address the imbalance of the horse. I of course start in hand. Joplin as a 4 year old was doing SI and HI fairly quickly in hand. Counter SI is where I tend to start US. We would do the serpentines with advance the haunch and advance the shoulder ie SI and counter SI in the serpentines to keep the asking if the movements short.

For me the biggest jump in the training of the horse is when you can change flexion bend and mobilization of shoulders and haunches. So the going from HI to renvere. Again this is all a progressive training. I don’t expect a horse first US to be able to do this work US but I ask in hand much earlier.

When we get to where Joplin is now I should be able to move from movement to movement easily SI HI renvere counter SI having just a few strides in each. I also see value in the piaffe wih. The Lisa M video shows the diagnalization in the walk well. This is what Cedar uses and it is amazing how that work puts the horse in the correct posture for piaffe. We don’t drill it of course but do use it just a few minutes almost each ride. Actually Joplin now understands the energizing so she has moved passed the diagonalization to piaffe. She will be 8 in a few days. I know chisamba feels that the horse should not start piaffe work until 10. Yet I’ve read from some trainers they start it in hand as early as 5. We started Joplin last year at 7. I believe as Anja B does. Piaffe is one of the best gymnastic exercises to strengthen the horse.

I also do lateral work on bending lines as a normal training approach and I believe in doing lateral slowly so the horse can articulate and understand the exercise before adding in energy. Being a Pilates student has really cemented this for me. I can take the time to feel everything when slow. I need to have that muscle memory well established before adding quickness.

[Chisamba]

Re piaffe work. I think you must have me confused with some one else. I have no problem with piaffe being introduced early. The early beginnings even before under saddle work is started.

I definitely am pro muscle development and letting the back mature before upper level work but I honestly do not ever remember saying, or believing that piaffe work cannot be started early especially in hand.

[khall]

From June 2021 chisamba

.. ask for collected work, in 3rd and 4th level before 7. I don't know if I am right or wrong. it means my horses are all about 10 before they start piaffe, passage, pirouette etc. that is simply my choice. Kea was 20 when I did PSG. I see others doing all the upper level work before 7. I am.probably ...

That’s where I got you felt piaffe should not be started before 10. At least that is how I took it because that is what you do

Anyway neither here nor there. Some start early ( at the Valenca’s they start them very early ) some start later. Me I’m leaning more towards early. Especially how Cedar trains it. Using diagonalization of the walk.