Keeping calm and cantering on

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StraightForward
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Keeping calm and cantering on

Postby StraightForward » Sat Mar 12, 2022 4:45 pm

My coming 6 year old (16.3 Westphalian mare if any less frequent posters are reading this) is finally starting to find her canter. She has filled out a lot over winter, and also is figuring out that bending right and carrying weight on the outside legs feels much better than diving into the circle with her right shoulder. One thing that has been consistent with her is that she does not like her rider in a forward seat (I do get up in a half seat when she's cruising along, but if she gets sticky, sitting back and deep is what sends her forward again). She has a lot of natural shoulder reach, but also seems to get a little stuck over her front legs and I think that upsets her balance, then she wants to slam her feet into the ground and stop.

I just started cantering her again this spring a week or two ago and it is way better than where I left it in the fall. Yesterday she offered right lead canter on her own a few times, but then seemed to get a little stressed about her balance or just unsure that she wanted to be cantering. My approach in the moment was to just allow her to canter, and also allow her to go back to trot. We did do one right lead canter that I asked for, and went a full circle and trotted on my ask.

Left lead has been her easier lead, but yesterday she was also doing some odd things there, just flinging a leg sideways, thinking about stuffing her front legs into the ground to stop (I was able to keep my leg on and prevent any stops). So far nothing that is unseating me, and she can canter quietly on the lunge in this direction no problem. After we've cantered and taken a walk break, she gets a little dramatic when I pick up the reins (starts crab walking, flipping the reins, or her right front leg grows roots and we get stuck in place), so I think a lot is just anticipation.

This is probably the most drama I've encountered with getting a horse confirmed in canter. Just wondering what strategies others might use as far as how much to canter, what to do when canter is offered, strategies to keep her relaxed but forward. I wish we had access to a big track or something, but the big outdoor arena is about as large as anything else I could safely ride her in at this point. I think it's about 100'x200' so I'm not asking her to canter even a 20 m circle at this point.
Keep calm and canter on.

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Re: Keeping calm and cantering on

Postby khall » Sat Mar 12, 2022 5:12 pm

Have you tried spiral in on the circle and as you spiral out canter canter half to entire circle trot spiral back in to help her balance?

Another one is the canter circle trot just before cl small
Circle other direction the back to big circle and canter. Using the changing bend to help the balance.

I did not ride Rip in a light seat at canter for a very long time. He was not trustworthy enough to do that. Even when I did finally do so I only would when I knew it was a good day to.

Joplin I don’t canter light seat either not because she’s not trustworthy but because she needs me in a dressage seat to help her balance. She has such a a huge animated uphill canter she needs more strength before we go to light seat. I can stretch her but I need to stay in the saddle.

One of my horses that had a difficult canter I used SI straighten canter to help her. But it was the piaffe that helped her the most.

This is a good thread for Joplin and I! Canter is what we need to focus the most on. I think for her lots of transitions in and out and within the canter is what she needs.

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Re: Keeping calm and cantering on

Postby heddylamar » Sat Mar 12, 2022 9:16 pm

Maia gave a hard no to half seat. And sitting too deeply would either have her flying forward or slamming on the brakes. So I rode in knee patch breeches, and, on the advice of my trainer, sat lightly until she was better balanced.

Canter lengthenings and spiral in/out kept her moving forward, even when she started to break. Then I added in canter-trot transitions (you may recall, those were *not* appreciated) with a change of lead/direction that had Maia clamoring to canter again. And we did shallow counter canter loops down the long side (coming in 10-15 meters).

Once she was a bit less fiery about cantering — and we had reliable brakes — I took Maia out in our big field and let her open up. That was the real turning point.

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Re: Keeping calm and cantering on

Postby Chisamba » Sat Mar 12, 2022 10:17 pm

I have a client horse that balks, crab walks and gets stuck after every walk break.

Now I take you down memory lane for a long tale. When I started jumping I was pretty worthless but Dad had this way of having all these connections with to riders and he called a favor of Denton Sanders who was a to grand prix jumper in Zambia. So I was driven 3 hours to Lusaka for a real lesson. Sitting in the stands watching the previous lesson, there was a girl on her pony and every time it went past the out gate it would stop. Counter bend, barge the gate etc. Denton told her to leave the reins completely alone and kick and use the bat until the horse moved then once moving , touch the rein. Anyway. Hysterical rider, impatient instructor, pony winning on all counts. Denton yelled. MARION will you do what I say. Now listen, I was viewing nasty behavior, a horse I'd never ridden. I swallowed hard and nodded. He put me on the pony and said do notntouch the rein when she charges at the gate just keep her going, I don't care where. So I did exactly what he said. Looped the rein and kicked, gave back smack with the bat, and miracle of miracle, she resumed a sweet little trot, walk or canter. After the third time she didn't even offer to stop at the gate again.

I have since realized that it's the absolute demonstration of not wrestling with the neck, getting the back.legs moving and way any how. You know your horse and you know what you do, but would very simply kick her forward into a trot before gathering the reins. If she takes off galloping, gather the rein quickly lmao.

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Re: Keeping calm and cantering on

Postby blob » Sat Mar 12, 2022 10:51 pm

I don't think half seat is a necessity. If she canters with you in the saddle, she is old enough to have that weight. Half seat can be confusing for some horses and a feeling they don't like.

Also, you mention she is fine when you lunge--are you lunging in side reins or without? I know not everyone here loves SRs. But in a case like this, I think it would be very valuable to put them on. Does she start balking with side reins on? In that case i think she needs to get more comfortable going forward into a connection and I would address that on the ground with SRs before doing it under saddle. If she's fine on the lunge with SRs then this is not about feeling something in the bit or about the lead, it's something either about rider aid or rider balance. That doesn't mean you're doing something wrong, but rather that she is not connecting the dots between what you're asking and the desired response. In which case, I would see if someone can lunge you on her at the canter--you can start as just a passenger but you have someone on the ground providing the cues she knows and responds to. and then you can start being the one to give the cues but the ground person is still there to help keep her forward by driving from the ground.

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Re: Keeping calm and cantering on

Postby StraightForward » Sun Mar 13, 2022 2:34 pm

Blob - I do occasionally lunge her in side reins, and also double lunge more frequently. She is actually stepping up to the bit pretty well, especially since I switched to the NovoContact. If she isn't stepping to the bit in trot, I don't bother asking for canter. She definitely wants me "there" with the contact when she is cantering. I did have my instructor and the BO help with encouragement from the ground last summer and I think sessions of that would have been OK, but the third one just pissed her off and we went backwards. I was thinking about having the teen trainer at the barn just sit up on her while I lunged - she is tough to lunge and I'm not sure she would listen to anyone but me.

Spiraling - I will give that a shot once this darn wind calms down. Yesterday it was warm, but pretty blustery and spooky, so we cantered a bit, but it wasn't a day to push the envelope. Last fall I could only get her into canter up the longside, but we can get into canter on a circle now, which opens up some options.

It's really not about getting her to canter any more, it's just more strategy for when we're cantering - i.e. let her roll for a few laps of the arena vs. doing T/C/T transitions more frequently, and whether to keep her cantering when she offers canter herself, but then will go back to trot after a quarter circle if it's her decision. It seems she is just getting excited and overthinking it. Behind all the recalcitrance, there is a perfectionist workaholic, so it's finding that balance (literally and figuratively). She does seem to be coming around to the idea that saddling up and working is just a daily part of life now, and the total stall outs from last year are getting to be pretty rare.
Keep calm and canter on.

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Re: Keeping calm and cantering on

Postby Chisamba » Sun Mar 13, 2022 3:24 pm

Let me rephrase all the story up above. Leg before rein, notvrein before leg

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Re: Keeping calm and cantering on

Postby StraightForward » Sun Mar 13, 2022 4:05 pm

Leg before rein is my usually philosophy, but I've kicked/spanked myself to exhaustion when her stalling out was at its worst. I found I had to keep her more on the bit, and often take the neck away a little to get her unrooted from the spot. Then it's one hand on the reins and a solid spank to get moving again. I definitely offer a little give on the reins when I think she is going to stop and I apply leg. Actually it is usually more of an arrête (sp?) because she starts to get over her front legs and dive down - the once the head comes back up, hands go forward and leg goes on.

It looks like the weather will be mellower tomorrow, so I'll try to get some video.
Keep calm and canter on.

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Re: Keeping calm and cantering on

Postby Chisamba » Tue Mar 15, 2022 4:03 pm

I wasn't t talking g about the canter, sorry. I was specifically referring to picking up the reins after walking. People are very habitual and begin to take up the reins. Horse gets crabby. I don't take up the reins, ask the horse to trot then take up the reins. I might cluck, squeeze, tap.

I usually help the horse find balance and really slow it before the canter transition rather than chasing into that transition.

I know this was a canter thread. Sorry about that.

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Re: Keeping calm and cantering on

Postby Chisamba » Tue Mar 15, 2022 4:20 pm

Things to try since it's long term problem.

Get the horse really really fit in the canter on the longe.

Make the walk forward, the trot hard work and the canter rewarding.

Get the horse as responsive off the leg as you can. Move the feet any time you want to. Not just for canter. I have in the past used a driving whip and touched the feet with a specific verbal cue. Maybe something as simple as " step". As basic as if I touch your cannon bone and say step you move that foot. Why? You would be surprised how often the horse will move every other foot but really plant the one you are touching. Since every horse that is alive is capable of lifting a foot, this shows me its not about pain balance or discomfort. Once the horse feels rewarded for moving its feet, relaxes, chews etc, you can translate it into transitions. Any transition.

One of the things I tell people all the time is this is the basic work that should be done long before it was time to get on. It's as basic as leading politely. You can teach it to a weanling , a yearling , a two year old, and it all applies to when you bring the horse to riding age.

But it really doesn't matter when you start, the most basic training step is simply moving a horses foot. If you have trouble stepping the horse into the canter, just keep the horse stepping until the canter seems like a reward. You do not have to be harsh, just relentless and consistent.

I know this is not " dressage". Per say, but it's horse.

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Re: Keeping calm and cantering on

Postby blob » Tue Mar 15, 2022 4:32 pm

StraightForward wrote:Blob - I do occasionally lunge her in side reins, and also double lunge more frequently. She is actually stepping up to the bit pretty well, especially since I switched to the NovoContact. If she isn't stepping to the bit in trot, I don't bother asking for canter. She definitely wants me "there" with the contact when she is cantering. I did have my instructor and the BO help with encouragement from the ground last summer and I think sessions of that would have been OK, but the third one just pissed her off and we went backwards. I was thinking about having the teen trainer at the barn just sit up on her while I lunged - she is tough to lunge and I'm not sure she would listen to anyone but me.


I think it would be valuable for you to lunge the trainer on her or even have her ride her without the lunge so you can also see what is happening. I find watching watching another capable rider deal with something I am struggling with to be very useful, whether they are more successful than I am or not.

I don't know how safe you feel getting Tesla out of the arena, but if you do, another option would be finding grass, preferably a slight hill to canter her on. Most horses are more forward out of the arena and having a slight incline also helps things from feeling too wild or out of control (in my opinion) and great for strength. I know finding space out of an arena can be tough, but even if you can ride her in a pasture it might help. A friend of mine has a gelding who can be very sticky and balky. She found that if she warmed up out of the arena and then came back into the arena usually he was good to go.

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Re: Keeping calm and cantering on

Postby Sue B » Tue Mar 15, 2022 5:51 pm

I feel your frustration, SF, as I have btdt with Tio. The only difference between him and Tesla is that Tio prefers cantering on the circle instead of straight lines!?! In addition to always tending to be behind the leg, I think these horses are very sensitive about loss of balance and react by shutting down instead of plowing on. I also have no idea why, some random days, he flings his hind quarters to the right when cantering left lead. All I can say is, the problem goes away if I return to trot and "make" him do si on a 20m circle in addition to half way down the long side. Then we do some lengthenings and some leg yields. Step back into canter and, presto(!), canter is "normal" and he can carry me down the long sides and on circles. Right lead canter he tends to be a little high-headed and sucked back, which I 100% ignore because it goes away within one full circle, then he settles into a quite nice canter which actually has more reach and fluidity than left. Bottom line, is that I gave up asking "why?" and just stick with "keep on keepin' on". After a walk break, if he's acting up in the walk then it's lateral work in the walk and if he's acting up in the trot then it's lateral work in the trot with lengthenings mixed in. I rarely bother with the whip except to keep his haunches in line with his shoulders. He has seemingly figured out now that the quicker he "gets with the program" the sooner I'll take him down the road or hop over some low fences or take him through a bounce. Those are the rewards he seeks, that and "Yes, Tio...Good Boy" I especially use the "Yes, Tio" in right lead canter to encourage him to move on, don't give up.

These are really tough horses to figure out.

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Re: Keeping calm and cantering on

Postby StraightForward » Wed Mar 16, 2022 3:55 am

Here is a video from yesterday, though she didn't do anything very funky. I don't think it's as bad as some are imagining, I can just feel her hesitancy and I'm trying to decide if generally longer stretches of cantering to just let her get in the groove, or shorter sets so she doesn't think it's a whole big thing every time, would be better. Right now I'm leaning towards shorter canters on the right side, where she struggles more, and longer canters on the left lead, where I can ask for more forward. She is already not getting so excited after we canter, but I've started just breaking it down to a forward trot, changing directions and cantering off again, rather than giving a walk break before trying the other lead.
https://youtu.be/3QmyZZYmyn0
Keep calm and canter on.

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Re: Keeping calm and cantering on

Postby Chisamba » Wed Mar 16, 2022 1:52 pm

Not bad at all. You are well on your way to developing. My general assessment is that she is just a heavy horse with a heavy horse canter that will take some time. Do you think that's it?

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Re: Keeping calm and cantering on

Postby StraightForward » Wed Mar 16, 2022 2:29 pm

She has definitely gotten heavier over the past year, but canter has always been a challenge, especially right lead. I keep hoping that she'll come up a little in front - she's about level, not as uphill as some WBs. It's more mental with her. She can really get in her head about things and then we go backwards. Now I have her in a good spot and don't want to screw up and have her regress again because I pushed too much or not enough.
Keep calm and canter on.

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Re: Keeping calm and cantering on

Postby khall » Wed Mar 16, 2022 11:24 pm

SF that’s great you are getting this much cantering with Tesla. I think you will walk a fine line with her on pushing/not pushing. I do believe that fitness will play a part. It did with Rip for sure. Strength and engagement did with Gaila more than fitness.

I would be inclined to do both work on longer canters but also work on her strength and engagement and suppleness.

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Re: Keeping calm and cantering on

Postby piedmontfields » Thu Mar 17, 2022 12:49 pm

I agree that this looks like good development for a big horse along the way to a solid canter. You will know your horse on this---whether she can find the "motor" in canter and just roll on lap 2 or 3 or not at this point. FWIW, I've found using a big oval (rather than the entire arena) helpful for horses developing in canter. It provides enough structure that we stay more between the aids and more aligned, but not as much as a 20 m circle.

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Re: Keeping calm and cantering on

Postby StraightForward » Thu Mar 17, 2022 2:25 pm

Khall - yes, a fine line! It's taken a lot of work to get to this point and I really don't want to screw it up. She can trot for days and doesn't seem to get very winded, but she did get sore in the stifles after a few days in a row of this kind of work, so I think building the balance and muscle strength will help. She is definitely more on the tight-muscled end of the spectrum.

Piedmont, thanks, I do usually do big ovals, and then maybe one circle. I should probably try to take her off the long side earlier and develop the bend a little more gradually though. I will play with that today. We are definitely working on controlling that big right shoulder, and it tends to fall in and need correcting when I ride more of a corner.
Keep calm and canter on.

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Re: Keeping calm and cantering on

Postby blob » Thu Mar 17, 2022 3:36 pm

What's interesting to me about this is that you say she has no problem cantering on the lunge. I'm not comparing the riding video to the lunging video, but it sounds to me like what you see when she lunges does not add up to what you feel on the right? Is that accurate?

If so, then it seems like either something about the ridden work is blocking her, confusing her, or more difficult for her. Or that she might have a better understanding/respect of a forward aid on the ground than under saddle. I don't mean any of this is a criticism to you--you're a lovely, soft, and quiet rider with enviable position and a great seat. I mean this more as an investigative thing--what is different? and what is harder?

I agree with the others that she looks good in the video and like she is on the right track. But having heard you describe the issue those are the things that stand out.

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Re: Keeping calm and cantering on

Postby khall » Thu Mar 17, 2022 3:55 pm

Blob SF has said previously even lunging the right lead was difficult. It’s always been the more difficult lead it is just better now and the lunging helped. If I remember correctly it was the double lunging that made the biggest difference

SF does Tesla have a high low issue in the front?

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Re: Keeping calm and cantering on

Postby StraightForward » Thu Mar 17, 2022 4:10 pm

khall wrote:SF does Tesla have a high low issue in the front?


Possibly a very slight tendency for her right to be high. She has always stood with the RF more back, though recently she keeps it more upright. I think the work and the SureFoot pads have helped with that.

Blob, it took a LONG time to get her cantering both directions on the lunge. I would say if anything, the SR's help to keep her in a channel, so more that she doesn't struggle with stepping forward into that constraint. We have had some knock-down drag out fights over going forward on the lunge over the past few years, but I have to double lunge or use SRs periodically to maintain her belief that she needs to comply and go forward.
Keep calm and canter on.

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Re: Keeping calm and cantering on

Postby StraightForward » Thu Mar 17, 2022 4:26 pm

I will admit that I might be bracing a little because a) I am not used to such big movers and b) last summer/fall she would slam her fronts into the ground and stop, so I'm still on guard for getting shot over her ears. I think I'm getting better about having more belief in both of us.
Keep calm and canter on.

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Re: Keeping calm and cantering on

Postby Sue B » Thu Mar 17, 2022 5:30 pm

Just to offer more hope to you, SF. My friend has a 17.2hh draft-cross mare that she has been riding regularly since she was a 3yr old. She has taken this mare out and about since the beginning and has done ground-pole type horse trials with her since her 4th year. So lots of "work" outside of an arena, up and down hills and over little jumps. This winter, however, is the first time she's been able to take the mare through a bounce without feeling like she was going to fall over the last cavalletti, and this is the first winter she feels (and looks) like she can actually canter forward and maybe even gallop a bit. The mare is coming 6. It has simply taken that long for her to grow into herself and develop the carrying strength necessary to do the things she was purchased to do. Mare has a heart of gold, packs beginners when needed, always willing to try, and so friend has been just messing around with her and keeping her fit hoping she would improve. Finally looks like it's paying off. All this to say that, this is Tesla's year too! :D

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Re: Keeping calm and cantering on

Postby heddylamar » Thu Mar 17, 2022 5:31 pm

For the shoulder, have you tried counter bend?

Maia and I had a similar issue — fairly balanced on the lunge, then really struggling with opening up the left shoulder. When we canter right, I'd put her in a counter bend, then straight, then bend. It took forever, and I did this alongside canter lengthenings and cantering out in the big field, but she finally started using that shoulder equally.

I was in physical therapy for much of that time, working on repairing the left hip. So when I was finally able to really use that outside leg, everything clicked. For some reason, even at its worse, it was effective enough as an inside leg ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Now that she's more trustworthy, would asking Tesla to open up and lengthen or even gallop help break you out of this cautious cycle?

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Re: Keeping calm and cantering on

Postby demi » Thu Mar 17, 2022 9:59 pm

Just wanted to add that I thought Tesla looked good. She’s a lot of horse and I applaud SF’s training!

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Re: Keeping calm and cantering on

Postby Chisamba » Fri Mar 18, 2022 10:28 am

I remember a long medical discussion about her. Did you rule out PSSM?

It's when lunging and when the horse stops that it is most helpful to keep the feet moving. Even if she is ready to have a knockhl down drag out argument if you keep touching the cannon bone and getting her to lift a foot over and over, even if she stomps or kicks, they are moving their feet and as such you are still in charge.

I don't suppose I explain it well enough. But move the horses feet, don't let the horse move your feet. So stand still and keep her feet moving until she goes out on the longe line and goes forward. It sounds as if you have the solution in place but I thought I'd give you the handy tip again. It helps when you get to piaffe too

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Re: Keeping calm and cantering on

Postby StraightForward » Fri Mar 18, 2022 2:08 pm

Thanks Sue, I hope it's Tesla's year too! She has always been pretty handy about trotting through cavaletti, but gets offended about being asked to jump, so I haven't gone there under saddle yet

Heddy - I haven't tried counterbend in canter yet, but I definitely use it in the walk and trot, but we're probably more at the point where I can start playing with it in canter. She used to want to throw her haunches left, and from the recent videos I can see she is a lot straighter now, so I think that might have something to do with the sort of labored feeling - she is just adjusting from her natural way of going.

Chisamba - I never had my gelding tested, but suspect he has EPSSM, which started when he was four. I don't see the same things with her, but something to keep in mind. She was on a grain free diet until I switched her to a couple pounds of Strategy last year, and didn't really notice a difference in behavior. I've been using some of Tristan Tucker's methods to move the feet out and over from the ground before each ride the last week and I think it does make a difference for when we get stuck. For awhile I was resorting to waving my arms around and acting crazy to get her out of my space because she would dive in on the lunge line and then double barrel if I tried to drive her out with the whip. I ended up using a hog sorter AND a whip for a few weeks to keep her away from me when I was lunging. Now she is way more obedient.
Keep calm and canter on.

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Re: Keeping calm and cantering on

Postby StraightForward » Sat Mar 19, 2022 2:49 pm

Last night our ride went really well! I'm sure it helped that there was no wind, no other riders or spooky things going on. I tried riding more of an egg shape around the arena, beginning in the trot. She was getting sticky at the top of the egg (our outdoor is sloped probably 2%), and I kept Chisamba's advice in mind and went after her a little harder about continuing to move the feet. One hand on the rein and a whack if she doesn't move forward from my leg. She did swap leads in back twice cantering to the right, but fixed it in one trot stride and kept going without histrionics or popping onto the left lead. So I think we are in a good spot, and I'm going to just keep it at this level for a few weeks before asking new questions in the canter. Hopefully my instructor will come up by then as well. She's always been spot on with her advice on this horse, so I've been a bit anxious not having that oversight for several months.
Keep calm and canter on.

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Re: Keeping calm and cantering on

Postby khall » Tue Mar 29, 2022 2:04 pm

So cantering with Joplin working on her uphill balance and my equitation. She gets so up in the transition she stalls out a bit and will break if my seat and leg are not there to support her. This is new for me. Never had one with this ability

https://youtu.be/sykT9uoONsw

https://youtu.be/6SrXMmhTaFw

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid ... 590&type=3

And we started some slight CC and HI at the canter. Joplin needs a bit more forward canter in this work/exercises to be able to keep the canter.

Also worked on HI to canter especially left because she wants to throw her right hip out. She’s such an accommodating horse though and just tries what you put in front of her. So refreshing after riding my challenging WBs

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Re: Keeping calm and cantering on

Postby StraightForward » Tue Apr 05, 2022 4:28 am

Khall, I think we have the opposite problem - I watched video from yesterday and Tesla is getting a little buried in her poll and over striding with her hind legs, so I think she can't lift up into the canter from there. The last video was apparently our high water mark, and now we've regressed a bit once again. I'll be working on getting the poll up while keeping the energy through. I did get her in SI left and get the poll up to where I thought she might lift into canter, but it didn't quite happen. We did manage to get one canter to the right yesterday, and it's a good demonstration of the bit of chaos that can ensue. Please pay no mind to the other rider: https://youtu.be/DkVXhEVHu_Q
Keep calm and canter on.

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Re: Keeping calm and cantering on

Postby khall » Tue Apr 05, 2022 2:10 pm

SF Tesla just looks like a tough ride. I know it can and will get better. Rip certainly did. It’s not an easy road to go down. There were definitely times when I wanted to explain to Rip if you would just cooperate we would be done! There were times that I could get on and get done in 20 minutes. These difficult horses definitely challenge our horsemanship skills. You do a good job of just keeping on with Tesla regardless of her shenanigans. I don’t miss riding that challenge!

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Re: Keeping calm and cantering on

Postby piedmontfields » Thu Apr 07, 2022 5:31 pm

Khall, FWIW, Emi had a very similar canter in earlier stages to your lovely mare. It really taught me to sit quietly on my butt (no leaning forward the way thoroughbreds like it) and just get grounded. In general with this kind of build, the hind end is eager for the job, but they have to learn to get the front end to reach and to canter all of the way through the body.

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Re: Keeping calm and cantering on

Postby khall » Thu Apr 07, 2022 7:11 pm

Piedmont yeah I’ve got to sit more upright otherwise I mess up her balance. I’ve also got to keep my legs on rather than soft like I do with my WBs to keep her pushing through. That much uphill balance takes more strength than she can carry long. I did find doing T C T transitions on the circle were very beneficial to Joplin now to do them on long straight lines out in the field.

These Iberians have such different movement then my WBs. She can get climby like most of them can.

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Re: Keeping calm and cantering on

Postby piedmontfields » Fri Apr 08, 2022 1:53 am

Trot-canter-trot-canter is harder than it seems and very helpful for releasing the back of these Iberian sorts. If you can keep her through doing these transitions, you are getting somewhere. Yes, it is different than some other types.

Also, many horses with this build act like they are ready for 3rd-4th+ level movements before they have the strength to truly do them. It's our job to notice that and develop the strength.

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Re: Keeping calm and cantering on

Postby khall » Fri Apr 08, 2022 2:07 am

Piedmont I do think I have an advantage with Joplin that most Iberians don’t have. She has the back of a WB where the movement goes through so well. Her dam was very much the same (Han/TB).

Yes she stays nicely through in the TCT transitions. They really help both of us with the upward transitions especially. Gets her sharper off the aid.

Joplin is 8 now and has carefully been worked with gradually increasing the difficulty of her training. She was started lightly at 4. Everything comes pretty easy except the canter work which has been much slower to develop so I’m very cautious about not over working her. Breaking our training up with both field rides and WE days. Sometimes we just do in hand work. We started piaffe work in hand last year with diagonalization of the walk first then gradually adding the energy to now she easily gets 15 steps of forward piaffe in hand. Longevity is my goal with Joplin.

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Re: Keeping calm and cantering on

Postby Chisamba » Fri Apr 08, 2022 3:51 am

StraightForward wrote:Khall, I think we have the opposite problem - I watched video from yesterday and Tesla is getting a little buried in her poll and over striding with her hind legs, so I think she can't lift up into the canter from there. The last video was apparently our high water mark, and now we've regressed a bit once again. I'll be working on getting the poll up while keeping the energy through. I did get her in SI left and get the poll up to where I thought she might lift into canter, but it didn't quite happen. We did manage to get one canter to the right yesterday, and it's a good demonstration of the bit of chaos that can ensue. Please pay no mind to the other rider: https://youtu.be/DkVXhEVHu_Q


It's really interesting looking at this video. It looks like getting her up to get the canter transition works, but then she really pushes her right shoulder right, tossing her head left, and unbalanced herself.

But.... The leg stamping and that head toss immediately reminded me of a horse a friend owned. I know everyone has given you tons of advice health wise but have you tried high dose vitamin E and melatonin? Also riding in a mask or horse sunglasses. https://equizoneonline.com/products/evy ... 5440351413

Is she better on cloudy days and worse in bright sun?

Look up photic head shaking. You are definitely a keen enough horse woman to notice if any of the symptoms add up

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Re: Keeping calm and cantering on

Postby StraightForward » Fri Apr 08, 2022 1:58 pm

Thanks Chisamba, interesting thought. I don't think so, but will keep it in mind. Yesterday was very sunny and she was quite good except for the canter. Eventually she got going on the right lead and I kept her cruising for about 2.5 circuits of the arena. I felt like she had switched in back, but asked someone who was standing by and she said she was more like 4-beating, then I put my outside leg back to try to keep her haunches from drifting out, and she did switch in back, but fixed it in one trot stride and kept going. She has always really thrown herself onto her right shoulder; when I first started her, it was all I could do to not end up pivoting around in the middle of the arena as she would fall in so badly. Yesterday in my lesson with A, she had us doing lots of "sloppy" leg yields, just leading with the shoulder. I've done this before, but haven't used it in a while. Anyway, I tried it out on T and it seemed to help her stand up over that left front, and stay more through trotting with right bend. I'm starting to ride her for longer sessions, so I'm hoping the increased work will get her a little more fit and supple and things will start getting easier.
Keep calm and canter on.

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Re: Keeping calm and cantering on

Postby khall » Fri Apr 08, 2022 2:28 pm

SF you might want to try opening the outside rein in the right canter to yield her HQs instead of the leg. Cedar suggested this for Joplin in our left lead where she wants to throw her HQs to the right. Helps them stand up better

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Re: Keeping calm and cantering on

Postby exvet » Fri Apr 08, 2022 4:42 pm

I think you're managing the challenges of strength (her need for more) & balance with such a good-sized mount quite well. Most of what I see are balance and straightness issues in a horse who is very strong (but still needing more ability to carry in the hind which she won't develop without being able to travel straight in the canter). I think she resists and/or reacts to your requests to straighten because it's not in her comfort zone and like most horses uses her size to try to demand that it's her way/preference. I would first try khall's suggestion and if this doesn't work, I would try a feel of renver when cantering right. This helped Junior tremendously with his canter left which looked a lot like what you have going on to the right. I still have to make absolutely sure I have him straight in his body at the trot then when I ask for the canter depart I not only have him moving from inside leg to outside hand but I ride the very next few strides with my inside leg ever so slightly back once he takes the correct depart so that I can keep his haunches 'out, but really I'm riding them straight' and thus maintain the proper connection on the outside rein. If I don't he rolls over the right shoulder, tries to be overbent to the inside (even if I drop the inside rein) and definitely avoids carrying his weight evenly.

I just got done riding Brandon. His canter is coming along but I am finding that even though he has a lot of natural balance and athletic ability which has allowed me to develop very nice canter departs from the trot (and the walk at times) he has two main issues - lack of strength and utter dislike for bending through the rib cage and accepting moving into the outside rein. I personally am grateful that he isn't any larger or in any way built like Junior (but taller) because I'm not sure I would have the strength (in my core) to help him use himself properly. The greatest difference in training Brandon vs. Junior is that Brandon is a bully. His reaction to anything that pushes him outside of his comfort zone is to try to take over which I am 'on' in a very black and white manner. To get the improvement I've made on Brandon I had to tackle the canter in short spurts and gradually build him up to being able to canter longer without losing his marbles. I am lucky in that I can canter him on the trails which has in some ways let him realize that cantering can be fun. Now don't get me wrong, he likes the gait. He just doesn't like for ANYONE to micromanage his preferences.

Good luck though I feel that you're on the verge of getting your mare to the point where she will be more comfortable in her body with you on board 'micro-managing' her overall mass.

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Re: Keeping calm and cantering on

Postby StraightForward » Sat Apr 09, 2022 2:41 pm

Thanks Khall and Exvet. I think I do tend to bring my left hand in too much in an attempt to maintain contact when she is counterbending and bulging her right shoulder. Using the sloppy leg yield seems to be helping because I know I have to create space for her left shoulder, and it gets her into that rein a little more.

Exvet, I'm a little confused about your suggestion of renvers on the right, since it seems like that would just reinforce her tendency to fall on the inside shoulder and throw the haunches out, or am I not envisioning that correctly? I do sometimes try for a feeling of travers, but we don't have many lateral work buttons yet.

Yesterday we had a quite good ride. I used some counter SI both directions since the wall is helpful for maintaining the position, and then got her a little more pulled together with the poll up in the trot. After that she thought she might like to canter, and while we still had some chaos, it felt like she got her shoulders up in front and started to lift into it - grunting all the way :lol: Things are getting better, just not following the pattern I'm used to, so I have to make sure to focus on what is better - like she is taking contact, and she didn't stall out on me, and only needed one correction when she started blocking out my trot aid.

She got her WN/Enc. vacc last night, so she'll get the weekend off and we'll see how things percolate.
Keep calm and canter on.

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Re: Keeping calm and cantering on

Postby khall » Sat Apr 09, 2022 3:06 pm

SF opening the outside rein does allow for the shoulders to shift out but you also want to feel that outside hind yield to the inside almost HI. Getting the horse to yield to the rein all the way to the feet is very helpful especially when they are resisting and blocking the leg aid.

Cedar and JP use this yielding to the rein a good bit in their training. You can feel it lighten the horse’s feet helps to get them unstuck

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Re: Keeping calm and cantering on

Postby MsM » Sat Apr 09, 2022 3:11 pm

Exvet, your description of Brandon's attitude made me laugh. It is so much like my Morgan's "bully" behavior!

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Re: Keeping calm and cantering on

Postby StraightForward » Sat Apr 09, 2022 3:15 pm

Yeah, I am thinking Exvet meant travers not renvers, but I'm interested to read her clarification. The sloppy LY is doing pretty much what I think you are describing. We just aren't quite at the point where she can process asking for HI and canter simultaneously. She does seem to try to figure it out, but seems to get frustrated easily. I can ask for one then the other, and hope the canter aid goes through, but if not, then we can either cowboy into it, or regroup and start over.
Keep calm and canter on.

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Re: Keeping calm and cantering on

Postby blob » Sat Apr 09, 2022 8:30 pm

StraightForward wrote: The sloppy LY is doing pretty much what I think you are describing.


My trainer often has us use a sloppy LY. Well, he doesn't call it that. He calls it a 'rein yield', but the idea being that it's kind of not so great LY in that you're really leading with the shoulder to get it into that outside rein. He would sometimes have me do it on a circle so that you're rein-yielding out--that was much harder than on or off the rail!

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Re: Keeping calm and cantering on

Postby exvet » Sat Apr 09, 2022 11:14 pm

SF I apologize for the confusion and my mistake in choice of words so I'll try again. When I watched your last video that you posted it appeared to me that your horse was leaning on the right shoulder (falling over it) and keeping her left hind out/not engaging her left hind. It also appears that she won't yield to your right leg and step into the outside rein when going to the right. So yes if on the right rein I would try for a feeling of traver; however, on the left rein she fails to fill up the right rein. She again appears to be leaning on your inside leg instead of moving away from it and into the outside rein. If she's just avoiding filling up the outside rein then I have found taking a FEEL of renver in that direction can help (when going to the left). I didn't really see her avoid stepping under so much with either hind when on the left lead canter. The FEEL is just for a moment/stride and then go back to asking for the correct bend and ask her to continue stepping into the outside hand.

Junior would stop/stomp much like your mare the ONE time my instructor got on him to ride him when I was having trouble with developing the counter canter. It was his way of refusing to move into the outside (right rein) when cantering on the left in true canter and she was trying to insist that he move off her inside leg and bend and accept the contact of the outside rein. She's stronger than I am and he took a bit of offense. He hasn't really done that with me (because I have the paresis on that side) until just lately. He is starting to suck back a bit at the canter because I have finally successfully insisted that he be through and round so this is another attempt at evasions since I've upped the ante. He prefers to be a hunter pony and not a true, through the back at the canter dressage pony. He uses his mass against me and is currently refusing to move off my inside leg into the outside rein at the canter either direction............trot he's really good and he can canter with a really good jump but when he's into his ponytude it's much like he's trying to stomp snakes with his front end as a resistance to coming through and move FORWARD into the contact. It's ironic because our simple changes have really become quite good when I am so focused to keep him forward, round and coming through.....but now that he's working much harder he's not liking it. To be honest it seems that at the canter we can't do longitudinal suppleness and lateral suppleness at the same time.....though our canter half passes do happen and aren't too shabby.

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Re: Keeping calm and cantering on

Postby Chisamba » Sun Apr 10, 2022 12:43 pm

To be honest it seems that at the canter we can't do longitudinal suppleness and lateral suppleness at the same time...

This is, for me, the key to progress. Why? What do I have to fix to be able to? What is the plan to achieving this. Once you slice this type of problem everything becomes better

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Re: Keeping calm and cantering on

Postby Chisamba » Sun Apr 10, 2022 1:06 pm

As a person who used to be impressed by a lofty trot, it took struggling through fourth and PSG to work out that what you want when buying a horse is a good canter. I mean from thirds to grand prix the terror is almost the same. Add piaffe and passage and everything everything else is no more comicated than third level. The true challenges for the upper levels in the canter work. If you want to take an average horse all the way, get the canter, work on the canter. You have a downhill monster who has an earthbound trot? If you can get the canter works you can still do the FEI levels because passage is a taught gait and once you have passage you can do ' small passage' for your medium and extended gaits if you can nail the canter work. OK you won't win but you can get qualifying scores.
In hindsight why did my angling Ayan take me FEI. Probably because as an ex eventer he cantered everywhere.

I think exvet had a monster downhill pony she took FEI. How was his canter work?

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Re: Keeping calm and cantering on

Postby StraightForward » Sun Apr 10, 2022 2:54 pm

Thanks for clarifying ExVet. We are starting to be a little more successful with some baby lateral work and counterbending, so I think it will be a more accessible tool moving forward. I do wish I'd gotten video of our last ride because I asked for a touch of counterbend in the left lead canter and it did feel like she straightened and began to bound forward more.

Chisamba, I've heard that a lot about the canter, and I wish this horse had a better one naturally. However, she came in a trade that I feel I got the better end of. The little appy I had for a few years couldn't even canter in the pasture when I got her as 3 year old, and ended up with a pretty cute little canter by the time I sold her. I know canter can't really be "produced" like trot can, but I am a believer that it can be improved. Of course, Annabelle is the most advanced horse I've ever trained, and I haven't show much, so I have plenty to learn, and I'm sure there's plenty that I don't know that I don't know yet. I think jumping would be great for her - I might give it a try once A and I get back to jumping a little more this spring.
Keep calm and canter on.

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Re: Keeping calm and cantering on

Postby exvet » Sun Apr 10, 2022 3:06 pm

SF, I do think you can improve the canter, at least make is stronger and more engaged, though you have all my admiration for taking on a horse that is rather large; so, my suspicion is that you'll be one way or another developing a true six pack, LOL, in order to do so. Trust me, working on the canter is 80% of what we do and that doesn't equate to just doing laps around the arena. Leg yield at the canter and baby half passes is what fixed our (Junior) counter canter issue. I have been fortunate in that all of my welsh cobs, save one (Thornlea Wabash Cannonball, my he RIP) had a decent canter. Prior to Junior, the stinker pony probably had/has the best hind leg. Junior has a fantastic canter. It's still the issue of getting him to move and accept the contact into the right rein; so, we're still a work in progress. Like so many I get three steps forward and two steps back. Right now, I'm in two steps back mode but we do have a plan. I just don't think I'll be able to pull it together in time for the show next weekend; so, my trot work will have to shine and carry us through most of it to offset the low scores I will get for the flying changes especially if he continues his current resistance to being 'micromanaged'.............hopefully he'll eventually (maybe sooner) learn if he relaxes enough to roll over his back when cantering (to the left especially) and give me true straightness without tension the micromanaging would stop ;) I also need to develop more strength in my upper legs so that I can get him to bend instead of throw his rib cage back into my leg as, yes again, another resistance. Maybe I need to look into that contraption Suzanne Somers used to market :lol: :roll:

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Re: Keeping calm and cantering on

Postby khall » Sun Apr 10, 2022 3:20 pm

For me piaffe and the lateral work is what helps the canter. The exercises used to straighten and strengthen the horse helps develop the canter. I’ve had one very large WB who did not have a good canter but had a lovely piaffe. The more we worked on piaffe and SI to canter the better her canter got.

Gaila’s canter has developed lovely sit now. Why she could handle the CC fairly easily both short sides the first time we even tried it. Gaila has all of her lateral work well established and working on piaffe. Especially those large bodied WBs they are not the most supple of horses laterally.

I do agree with chisamba that a good canter is better than the flashy trot but I also know you can improve the canter just maybe not as much as you can the trot.


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