Head tossing/head shaking

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Head tossing/head shaking

Postby Lipsmackerpony88 » Fri Apr 08, 2022 11:14 pm

So the last week Lynx has taken up tossing his head.

During my lesson, my trainer brought up the possibility that he's developed into a head shaker. Now, since it's only been a week, I'm not yet inclined to jump to that extreme. I'm hoping to explore some other reasons that this might be happening and I would love to brainstorm.

Now It is important to note that 5 years ago I had to put down a young horse due to trigeminal nerve pain. A bit of a headshaker but he also drug his head on the ground which is the more concerning thing. It actually didn't affect him riding so much as it did in his everyday life. We tried a lot of things over years and I will totally admit them on my trainer said that (I don't think she has a full idea of the history of this) there's definitely a little panic inside me. I honestly I'm not going to go down that rabbit hole yet until there is a more long-term pattern.

So he's started tossing his head. I've seen him do this a little bit in the halter. Basically it seems like if he's frustrated or seems like you're constricting him he will do it. And has done it for as long as I had him but never been a problem. Just a thing I've noticed on rare occasions. Now the first time I noticed and I think pretty noticeably is right before the canter. I think a week ago we had some really ugly transitions and I was not riding well. I think I worked through that but part of me is wondering if he is anticipating the canter. And maybe a little frustrated. Although I did see him do it with the trainer a little too.

Basically anytime I start to sit the trot he's doing it. Which makes me think one or two things. It kind of feels like he's anticipating the canter And almost getting excited/nervous. Once we are in the canter he feels great. He feels happy. He goes forward over his back blows out in that happy way that they do. So I'm wondering if this is a anticipation plus frustration thing. Other than that I guess my other concern would be that my sitting is causing pain. But I just had the chiropractic out last week and she thought he felt great... And he had a massage a month ago and no back soreness. Although I do wonder about the bridle/but combination. I'm not sure if he loves the bit I have him in so I'm going to try him and some others. I'm also going to borrow my friend's miklem bridle.

I really really hope that he's not a full-blown headshaker. I'm going to try the most reasonable things I can for going down that rabbit hole of medical stuff.

One interesting note is he started doing this few weeks after getting his teeth done. And finishing up the course of omeprazole...

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Re: Head tossing/head shaking

Postby Kyras_Mom » Sat Apr 09, 2022 2:38 am

Have you tried asking for canter from the walk? Alternatively, try posting into the canter. I am wondering if it is the sitting part that triggers it. Are you doing any sitting trot other than going into canter? It truly sounds more like an anticipation or tension issue. Sometimes, it takes awhile to establish a relaxed sitting trot. I know on Kyra, I can easily get hollow posturing upon sitting...since I haven't been able to sit in oh, forever (due to the tailbone issue). I go to baby trot (jog trot) and she seems to handle that pretty well. I honestly don't know how much sitting trot my sitter will take and I haven't been pushing it as it takes a lot of leg to get through the issue. They have to engage the hind end to canter. I think trot to canter is actually a hard transition. Maybe try the canter transitions a different way and see what happens.

Susan

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Re: Head tossing/head shaking

Postby heddylamar » Sat Apr 09, 2022 2:46 am

Does he toss his head on the lunge line?

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Re: Head tossing/head shaking

Postby Tanga » Sat Apr 09, 2022 4:39 am

LPS Quinn has done this forever. She does it when she's annoyed, frustrated, tension, anxiety, wants to be pushy kind of thing, in the saddle, loose, etc. I'm guessing it's his personality. She literally tosses her nose up, like the Arab thing.

I think head shakers are more actually shaking from side to side.

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Re: Head tossing/head shaking

Postby Lipsmackerpony88 » Sat Apr 09, 2022 1:22 pm

Kyras_Mom wrote:Have you tried asking for canter from the walk? Alternatively, try posting into the canter. I am wondering if it is the sitting part that triggers it. Are you doing any sitting trot other than going into canter? It truly sounds more like an anticipation or tension issue. Sometimes, it takes awhile to establish a relaxed sitting trot. I know on Kyra, I can easily get hollow posturing upon sitting...since I haven't been able to sit in oh, forever (due to the tailbone issue). I go to baby trot (jog trot) and she seems to handle that pretty well. I honestly don't know how much sitting trot my sitter will take and I haven't been pushing it as it takes a lot of leg to get through the issue. They have to engage the hind end to canter. I think trot to canter is actually a hard transition. Maybe try the canter transitions a different way and see what happens.

Susan


Well that's my thoughts right now too. I haven't been working on sitting the trot for awhile (I'm not sure why I just haven't.) So now I really do wonder if it's just a anticipatory thing. And I will say that I did really muck it up a few weeks ago and he is every right to be a little frustrated with me. We were trying a little tactic of sitting a little and then posting a little an alternating but every time I would start to sit he would test his head. But sometimes it would continue it into the posting trot But I think he was already anticipating. Like I could feel him wanting to just kind of barge off into the canter as soon as I sat...

Walk to canter is an idea although I'm not sure if he's strong enough. I probably will try posting into it first. I might even work on a lot of sitting trot and not even attempt to canter, I will save that for tomorrow.

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Re: Head tossing/head shaking

Postby Lipsmackerpony88 » Sat Apr 09, 2022 1:24 pm

heddylamar wrote:Does he toss his head on the lunge line?

Nope no head tossing on the lunge or in the pasture that I have seen.

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Re: Head tossing/head shaking

Postby Lipsmackerpony88 » Sat Apr 09, 2022 1:27 pm

Tanga wrote:LPS Quinn has done this forever. She does it when she's annoyed, frustrated, tension, anxiety, wants to be pushy kind of thing, in the saddle, loose, etc. I'm guessing it's his personality. She literally tosses her nose up, like the Arab thing.

I think head shakers are more actually shaking from side to side.

I've seen them too It kind of up and down but I do agree with you that I kind of think it's just his personality coming out a little more. I think he wants to go ahead and get to the canter but he's also expecting that I'm going to kind of block him into it and that frustrates him. Once he is cantering he feels so joyful. So I do wonder if this is just a lovely part of the 5-year-old year...

He did bite me after. Lol not badly but we were standing and talking to someone and he decided that he didn't want to stand anywhere and reached over to nip my arm. :x He can be very good and very sweet but he's definitely a teenager right now.

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Re: Head tossing/head shaking

Postby Lipsmackerpony88 » Sat Apr 09, 2022 1:29 pm

I am going to try a different bit today though. This is something about this bit that I'm not convinced about and it's easy enough to try out.

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Re: Head tossing/head shaking

Postby StraightForward » Sat Apr 09, 2022 2:30 pm

I'm sure you would have notice this, but could it be his hair? When Annabelle gets more bouncy and in a frame the front of her mane starts tickling her ears and she starts shaking her head. Since she tends to dump her bridle if I put her in a fly bonnet, she just has to deal with it.
Keep calm and canter on.

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Re: Head tossing/head shaking

Postby Lipsmackerpony88 » Sat Apr 09, 2022 2:42 pm

Straightforward, I don't think it's the case right now. He has a roach main although it's more of a mohawk right now but not really flopping over. And he really seemed to only do it when we were sitting the trot before cantering.

But I do know that last summer he got pretty sensitive about the bugs. I remember he was quite fussy in the contact for the trainer that he went to over the summer at first. It wasn't as much flinging of the head as it was just kind of being all over the place. But I got her a fly bonnet to use and the problem went away. So I might just try the fly bonnet again. Although I definitely would need to be careful that he doesn't lose the bridle/fly bonnet by shaking his head.

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Re: Head tossing/head shaking

Postby StraightForward » Sat Apr 09, 2022 3:21 pm

Yeah, I have one of those mesh hoods that goes over the bridle/whole head. There were more bugs at the place we took a lesson last week, and she was fussing about that too. I'm thinking I might end up putting her in the hood so at least it's not disrupting our lesson. At shows with braids it doesn't cause a problem.

Honestly if it's just this moment preparing to canter, I'd just focus on pushing him forward and expect that he'll get past it. I think your idea of sitting more when not asking for the canter is good. I also wonder about asking for canter over a small jump, or maybe right after a couple trot poles? That could help break up the pattern a little and think more about what's ahead. It could just be a symptom of a moment of stickiness/getting behind the leg. A does this too and jumping helps.
Keep calm and canter on.

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Re: Head tossing/head shaking

Postby Lipsmackerpony88 » Sat Apr 09, 2022 4:21 pm

Oh yeah I have one of those too but I have not used it yet. I got it last year but the fly bonnet seemed to do the trick so we didn't need it.

I definitely think we need to break it up. Right now I think he definitely feels a pattern of okay we're going to circle, she's going to sit and then we're going to canter. We just started doing trot poles again so we will definitely play with that too. And I think just asking out of a leg yield or some other different pattern would be good for him.

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Re: Head tossing/head shaking

Postby Moutaineer » Sat Apr 09, 2022 4:46 pm

Its interesting to me how horses have such different attitudes towards repetitive exercises. Some, like Lynx, apparently, get all anticipatory and frustrated/anxious about the whole thing, and others, like Potters, settle into the groove and find it soothing, where repeated rapid fire changing up of stuff will turn him into a basket case. I wonder if its an age and experience thing?

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Re: Head tossing/head shaking

Postby Lipsmackerpony88 » Sat Apr 09, 2022 5:29 pm

Mountaineer, definitely interesting! I think it depends for Lynx. Sometimes it seems like he really likes figuring out the pattern and it can make him feel confident. But at the same time I think he can get bored quickly too.

I think I'm a part of it too. I really think he was anticipating and a few weeks ago I was blocking him because I wanted a perfect transition instead. I've had to let go of that just go with him.

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Re: Head tossing/head shaking

Postby blob » Sat Apr 09, 2022 8:40 pm

Is it a shake--side to side like he's trying to get a bug off--or is it a toss--up and down? If it's up and down how big is the range of motion? Like a nodding or a big up and down?

I ask because all of these things would potentially make me think different things.

One question--is he still on allergy meds? I ask because some horses shake or nod because of allergies. If he's gotten off the allergy meds you might want to try putting him back on for a few days and see if the shaking reduces. My friend's TB will have periodic episodes of head tossing/nodding and every time it's from allergies.

The other thing I wanted to share is that RP can be head tosser under saddle and by tosser I mean up and down in a pretty big range of motion. But his head tossing actually has nothing to do with his head, neck, or mouth. It's how he expresses discomfort. If he does a few times in the middle of a ride it means he's getting tight in the back or behind. If he comes out doing it from the beginning of a ride it might mean that he's sore somewhere or feeling gassy. For a long time I thought his head tossing was a more literal thing--something wrong up front. But now I've come to find that when something is not right in his world, he tosses his head.

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Re: Head tossing/head shaking

Postby Lipsmackerpony88 » Sat Apr 09, 2022 8:51 pm

Up and down and can be pretty dramatic. He has been off allergy meds for a few weeks and just recently got off the ulcer meds (but he's on a preventive supplement.) I definitely have thought about putting them back on but part of me wonders if he doesn't like the bit/Cavesson we are in. But it really seems linked to the canter transition, and I'm having a hard time not thinking that I caused this.

Like I mentioned in another thread his stifle has been a little extra sticky after having a few light weeks of work so I wonder about that too... Although it feels like he wants to canter. I have seen him do it previously at a frustration on the ground so that's where I'm leaning towards but I might try the Zyrtec again as well.

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Re: Head tossing/head shaking

Postby blob » Sat Apr 09, 2022 9:17 pm

Lipsmackerpony88 wrote: but I might try the Zyrtec again as well.


I would try this for a few days first if I were you! It's harmless and fairly cost effective, esp compared to some other diagnostics or even a new bit and cavesson.

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Re: Head tossing/head shaking

Postby Lipsmackerpony88 » Sat Apr 09, 2022 10:09 pm

Blob, I have a couple bits on hand that I can try so that part is easy but I definitely don't want to go spending hundreds of dollars on a new bridle unless I need to do that for sure. Although I do want to borrow my sister-in-law's Micklem first before buying anything since I can try it for free!

But the Zyrtec is out there and easy enough to try.

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Re: Head tossing/head shaking

Postby Lipsmackerpony88 » Sun Apr 10, 2022 7:56 pm

Okay today we had to ride inside (terribly windy right now) and the head testing definitely is linked to him thinking we are going to canter. We were able to work on sitting trot I'm kind of worked through that first moments of relaxation. We've done a lot of suppling to get him to relax and stay soft. And of course a big focus on my position at all times.

The Eventer trainer thanks that it is just a frustration / anticipation thing. So him just being a little bit of a 5-year-old. But it's up to me in a really be conscious about my position and be very clear to him. We are working on just kind of going with him and not looking at any perfection or worrying about what his head is doing right now. Just when I asked a canter, we canter.

I did buy a slightly different bit that is similar to what I'm using now but different enough to see if there's a difference. Right now he's in a full cheek double jointed happy mouth. And I'm picking up a d-ring single jointed snaffle happy mouth. I thought it was easy enough to try first. And I have a couple other bits have different variations to try as well.
But right now I'm not thinking it is head shaking at all and it's more behavior. Now there might be a physical issue causing the behavior but I don't think it's nerve related.

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Re: Head tossing/head shaking

Postby Lipsmackerpony88 » Wed Apr 13, 2022 1:54 pm

Lol very rude comment but whatever

Tanga, just to be clear I'm not talking about a harsher bit just a single jointed instead of the double jointed(And I'm not saying that you thought I was meaning that either.) There are a few things I don't love about this particular bit which I think could be influencing it here, although certainly not everything.

Definitely doing more before the canter like leg yield I think will! help. I definitely will try a few things and variations!

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Re: Head tossing/head shaking

Postby Lipsmackerpony88 » Wed Apr 13, 2022 3:18 pm

I probably shouldn't bother to respond, but I sincerely hope that things are okay for you Westisbest. And my experience when people post stuff like that it is usually not a good sign for what is going on in someone's life.

I am absolutely a mediocre rider. I have been riding for over 20 years and still I am no superstar. I am typically inspired by most of the riders in this forum. Most here are truly gifted and above all kind and supportive. Maybe they all were always talented but I think a lot have gotten to where they are by the virtue of hard work. Which is exactly but I hope to do.

I have worked hard over the years. I have taken lunge lessons, read tons of books, watched videos, audited/ridden in clinics, been a working student, ridden schoolmasters and have been lucky to ride many different horses not only just my own but for many other people. My horse and I have had one hard week. I totally accepted my responsibility in it and am actively working on it. The typical response for people watching me ride my horse for the last year, has been how happy he looks. So I'm not going to just throw away a whole partnership because of one tough week.

I'm human. I'm learning and I can't always be perfect. But I'm always trying. And my horse would be really honored to be called a sport horse and not the average moving "hony" that he is! But he is a very good boy and he tries hard. But he too has feelings and opinions and that is okay.

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Re: Head tossing/head shaking

Postby Tanga » Wed Apr 13, 2022 5:56 pm

LPS--I didn't think you were talking about harsher. I'm sure you'll sort it out.

You don't need to explain yourself to anyone. I was wondering if the account was hacked, but then saw pictures posted. If it is the real person, I agree with you. Something seems wrong.

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Re: Head tossing/head shaking

Postby Lipsmackerpony88 » Wed Apr 13, 2022 6:16 pm

Tanga wrote:LPS--I didn't think you were talking about harsher. I'm sure you'll sort it out.

You don't need to explain yourself to anyone. I was wondering if the account was hacked, but then saw pictures posted. If it is the real person, I agree with you. Something seems wrong.


It certainly seems out of character from the other posts I've seen from them from looking up the history. I hope they are okay.

And absolutely we will get it figured out! I've got lots of good advice and each ride has been a little better already :)

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Re: Head tossing/head shaking

Postby Chisamba » Wed Apr 13, 2022 10:05 pm

LSP, I think head tossing is complicated. First I try to make sure they're isn't anything wrong. I know you are careful about that but some horses have a very sensitive crown, some have sensitive ears. So check bridle fit.

I have also found that at about five to six horses seem to develop in the wither. Suddenly every time they pick up the canter the saddle pinches the either and a huge head toss happens, it can particularly be in one direction too. I will slide my fingers in under the pommel and all for the canter and see if my fingers get pinched.

Neither of those things being a problem I would address the connection in the transition.


I too think it's an unusually harsh comment from W , do not fret.

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Re: Head tossing/head shaking

Postby Lipsmackerpony88 » Wed Apr 13, 2022 10:47 pm

Chisamba, yeah I'm definitely taking note of my tack. I do just get the feeling he isn't in love with something such as the bridle or bit. But like you said it probably was a combination of a few things too.

The bit seems like it's in the edge of being too small to me. Both trainers thought that it was okay but they did agree it was kind of on the edge of whether I should move up a size or not. And my bridle needs upgraded. I think a monocrown would be more comfy.

The saddle fitter is coming May to recheck things but I'll take a look /have my trainer check too.

It kind of feels like he wants to really be zoom into the canter and if I don't let him, he's frustrated. But I have all kinds of "feelings" that might not be accurate ha ha.

I will definitely be experimenting with my tack and different exercises too.

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Re: Head tossing/head shaking

Postby Chancellor » Thu Apr 14, 2022 1:13 pm

I have removed the offending post and issued a warning. Kindly refrain from personal attacks to the best of your ability. Goodness knows this world we are living in is fraught with frustrations! I know I am living with FAR TOO MANY right now.

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Re: Head tossing/head shaking

Postby exvet » Thu Apr 14, 2022 2:37 pm

I read a couple of articles and watched videos regarding horses with tongue issues by Anja Beran. I found one particular horse that she took on very interesting because he had been demonstrating chronic tongue/contact/bit problems (or so everyone thought) and this went on for years. It appears that she is very strong in her opinion that tongue issues are directly linked to failure of working through the back - due to pain, discomfort, improper training/riding. She had this horse turned around and working properly in less than a year. Saddle fit can obviously contribute to this. I know that Brandon was and is far fussier in the mouth when I am riding in a saddle that does not fit him. His mouth issues were leading to head tossing. For him the bit, bridle and saddle all have to fit the princess pretty close to perfect. Also, not to be overlooked, and as those who've watched my latest video of him have noted he's 'expanded' significantly. While he still has more strength to build, he's definitely stronger than he was which I think also has made a difference.

My stinker pony is another who would often lick, chew but occasionally stick his tongue out. It didn't seem like a mouth/bit/contact evasion because contact was rarely an issue with him; however, I did retire him because of kissing spine. I never did have/find a saddle that fit him properly. I always made do with close fits because quite honestly, I couldn't afford a custom saddle or even regularly 'refitted' saddle for everyone, and he was someone else's castaway. I feel guilty because the little stinker did perform all the way through PSG but in the end the saddle fit issues and work (perhaps some of the previous work prior to me too) caught up with him. I now have to wonder if the saddle issues which didn't really seem so bad at the time were really what contributed to him sticking his tongue out (straight down not off to the side). What I suspect now were his underlying issues did not lead to head tossing so his example may not really apply here.

The only other horse I ever had any head tossing with was my son's first mare, a petite heavily bred Crabbet mare. Her issues were most definitely saddle related. Once we had that sorted out, she never, ever tossed her head while in tack again................now when she was in heat and doing her pole dancing moves, there was some pretty wild head tossing but that was always in turn out and usually directed towards one of my stallions.

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Re: Head tossing/head shaking

Postby Lipsmackerpony88 » Thu Apr 14, 2022 2:59 pm

Thanks Chancellor. I agree that the world is a tough place already right now.

Exvet, I definitely feel like there is some discomfort going on. He has never been a head tosser before so the fact that it's a new thing makes me take note of that.

I lunged him last night (I really wanted to ride but I had a horrible migraine.) He had Tuesday off but a training ride Monday. He was in the bridle, no saddle and going into the canter I did notice he tossed his head although a little less exuberant as under saddle. To me it looks like his stifle is stickier and as I said in another post he has slipped a few times when ridden although it's not every ride.

I'm going to use the equiband and focus on pole work More intensely right now. I'm still going to be looking at my tack especially the bridle. I am wondering if we need to try some estrone or something. But I'm going to wait a little bit and be a little more attentive in a stifle rehab way. Hopefully the winds die down and we can ride outside more on straightaways too.

Babies

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Re: Head tossing/head shaking

Postby Chancellor » Thu Apr 14, 2022 4:49 pm

And thanks to those of you who reported the post. Self-policing like that is welcome.

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Re: Head tossing/head shaking

Postby Tanga » Thu Apr 14, 2022 5:31 pm

Thanks, Chancellor.

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Re: Head tossing/head shaking

Postby Chisamba » Fri Apr 15, 2022 10:58 am

I have mentioned this before in another thread but I will mention it again. Look up photic head shaking. I say this because you mentioned it in sorting which is where horses with this show it. I have had two horses worth this in the past decade. The first one no one knew what it was, it didn't seem to be a known diagnosis yet and nothing we did helped. The moment the current horse developed it, I was able to identify it and started him on a sun visor and night turnout and he had dramatically improved. We also use vitamin e and melatonin.

You can also look up photic sneezing in humans.

If nothing matches Lynx the only thing you waited is time

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Re: Head tossing/head shaking

Postby Ryeissa » Fri Apr 15, 2022 2:33 pm

in actual headshaking syndrome I have seen improvements in moving to a less stressful barn, treating pain and ulcers, and working on neck restrictions. PS not my horse! but close friends and clients

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Re: Head tossing/head shaking

Postby Lipsmackerpony88 » Sat Apr 16, 2022 4:01 pm

I had to euthanize a horse for head shaking although the actual cause besides just trigeminal nerve pain was never found.

Anyways this last week I think it's been determined it's not head shaking. I think it's a behavior, due to some discomfort. Whether that's from tack or just something uncomfortable in his body, I'm not totally sure yet. Although the trainer said she didn't really notice any headshaking when she rode him on Monday.

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Re: Head tossing/head shaking

Postby khall » Sat Apr 16, 2022 8:34 pm

Exvet could you share the Anja B video? Mouthy ness is something I deal with some with Joplin. The myler and mickelman have helped tremendously. I still see it when she is worried.


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