Terror in Paris

[Wicky]

explosions and hostages. What a world we live in.

My sister-in-law and her family live in Paris. they are OK, but so many are not.

[Avola]

I just saw. Absolutely horrible. I hope your family is safe

[KathyK]

Sickening and very, very sad.

[chantal]

Prayers for all. I don't know what else to do right now. And the borders are closed. So many must be scared. Then again, I love seeing the "NOT AFRAID" pictures with the crowds. Go Paris!! Stand tall!

[awa]

So disheartening. My son-in-law was supposed to be there, but cut his trip short on Wednesday. I wish everyone could be safe.

[Chisamba]

Horrific, high death toll, from what i have heard, in multiple attacks. I would be frightened if i were there

[Code3]

Horrifying. Watching it unfold on TV.

[Rhianon]

Sickening.

[piedmontfields]

So sad. And such a reminder that the terror of the world belongs to all of us.

[PaulaO]

I am so sad. I was in Paris last month for the first time. I fell I love with it, and the people were so kind. Prayers being said for everyone.

[carpevita]

So horrible and so so sad.
The western world is reaping what its been sowing since we butted in to that region so long ago.
How long before this happens in NYC or LA?

And how can we help refugees when we cant tell who is one and who is an ISIS member?
I don't normally feel like there is no hope, but this morning I admit to it.

[WheresMyWhite]

The western world is reaping what its been sowing since we butted in to that region so long ago.

I feel that even if the western world had not 'butted in' many years ago, groups like ISIS would still exist and would still be trying to build their "empire". The US and other countries simply gave them a target to focus their rhetoric on.

[KathyK]

The western world is reaping what its been sowing since we butted in to that region so long ago.

I feel that even if the western world had not 'butted in' many years ago, groups like ISIS would still exist and would still be trying to build their "empire". The US and other countries simply gave them a target to focus their rhetoric on.

The earth might stop spinning in its axis, but I agree with you, WMW. Our butting in didn't help; in fact it may have hurried things along, but we are not entirely to blame. We have, however, made ourselves a good target.

[carpevita]

Good point--though I wonder-----would ISIS would be so strong now if the resources of that region hadn't been so used and abused by western businesses' and governments' interference for so many years?

Iow, if oil simply didn't exist there, so no big businesses or governments got to implement their agendas for said oil, what would that region be like now?

Of course Israel is yet another huge factor there.

[Rhianon]

Ya, if you take the long view of history the middle east has had it's fair share of wars of conquest, ideology, etc., just like the rest of us. Didn't need the west to create it for them.

The Siege of Vienna, in the mid-1500s was when the Ottoman Turks came close to over-running central Europe, for example. And you really need a database to figure out all the different Arab tribal groups' battles over the centuries. Long before economies relied on oil.

[Koolkat]

The US was instrumental in the formation of ISIS when we parachuted in to Iraq, sent the Iraq military/Bathist (Sunnis) home with their arms (and no jobs) and then put a Shite (Malaki) in power who was entrenched in religious sectarianism. They went to Syria to fight Assad/Iran (Shite). In broad brush strokes.

http://www.juancole.com/2014/08/mistake ... untry.html

[Alex]

ISIL was eventually coming down the pike regardless because of Western and Russian choices in the region, including the creation of Israel and our interference in and friction w/Muslim societies, it was simply a matter of when a group like ISIL would arrive w/its specific theological Caliphate craziness and which standard-bearers from among its adherents would force themselves into leadership positions. Their intention has never been world domination though, or at least not for a long, long time, but they wished for the elevation and reassertion of a nexus of Muslim power. Wouldn't it be funny if the Mahdi arrived, denied the idea of an Apocalypse being the be-all and end-all theological event on the Muslim calendar, and gave them a serious smackdown for their behavior?

[Figgy]

So horrible and so so sad.
The western world is reaping what its been sowing since we butted in to that region so long ago.
How long before this happens in NYC or LA?

And how can we help refugees when we cant tell who is one and who is an ISIS member?
I don't normally feel like there is no hope, but this morning I admit to it.

seriously?

Okay - something like 16 million muslims live in Europe and have done so for millennia. Around a million refugees (not all of them muslim, many were Christians) have entered Europe this year seeking asylum from the madman claiming to be ISIS and Assad and all the other nutjob militant groups from the region and 2 of them were murderous bastards. That's the stats.

What I love about the anti muslim crap that I'm seeing from the right is the total obliteration of recent European history. You conveniently forget about the 'ethnic cleansing' in Yugoslavia in the 90's when thousands of muslims where slaughtered by their Christian neighbours. You conveniently forget about the horrors of world war 2 when many good Christians happily slaughtered their Jewish neighbours, you forget about the millennia of Christian pograms against the jews, the slaughter of different Christian groups, you white wash Christian history where militant Christians happily slaughter non believers. Christianity has traditionally been the religion of violence, that is the historical norm despite what the right wing Christian lobbiests would tell us when they happily whitewash their own history. Ultimately, any religion or political thought that preaches hate and death has no place in a civilised world.

In the modern world what happened in Paris can happen anywhere. What we do know is that young people who do not feel that they belong to their society are more vunerable to these predators, we know that recruiters for terrorism use social media and religion in the same way that a sexual predator/paedophile will to groom young people to do their bad work. Its okay for the predators, the kids are the ones doing the dying, not them.

There are a lot of people out there doing great work and research into how to prevent young people from being enthralled by terrorists. That said, that's a discussion for the political forum.

Perhaps this thread should remain one about what a tragedy this is and how very sorry we feel for all the victims and their families. How sorry we feel for the communities affected by this event.

[Spiritpaws]

It occurred to me last night that the US would probably experience even more violence than we do now from gangs, and mentally unstable youth if we didn't have athletics. I don't watch football except for the Super Bowl. But imagine if we didn't have football or basketball or hockey: where would all that male testosterone go? These sports are an outlet, give men a focus, a purpose.

All these young men in the middle east...disenfranchised, hopeless for a future. Pick up a gun and relieve the tension. Join ISIS and have a purpose.

There was an interesting documentary on RT this weekend on the Kurds in Syria, and how the women, young women in their teens, are joining the female ranks that are protecting the towns. These young women see this not only to help their communities, but as a way to bring about change so that they can choose their future, not (as one woman put it) "be jailed by marriage for the rest of my life". They see the freedoms that women in the west enjoy, and they want those freedoms too.

Bombing the hell out of ISIS may make the western democracies feel good....but there will always be another terror group until all people have homes, food, jobs, opportunities and dare I say it: sports and activities: a way up.

[Chancellor]

The western world is reaping what its been sowing since we butted in to that region so long ago.

I feel that even if the western world had not 'butted in' many years ago, groups like ISIS would still exist and would still be trying to build their "empire". The US and other countries simply gave them a target to focus their rhetoric on.

The earth might stop spinning in its axis, but I agree with you, WMW. Our butting in didn't help; in fact it may have hurried things along, but we are not entirely to blame. We have, however, made ourselves a good target.

Oh man. The world WILL stop spinning because I agree with KathyK .

[KathyK]

Let's all hold hands and sing Kumbaya.

[WheresMyWhite]

Let's all hold hands and sing Kumbaya.

I'm humming it now

[WheresMyWhite]

It occurred to me last night that the US would probably experience even more violence than we do now from gangs, and mentally unstable youth if we didn't have athletics. I don't watch football except for the Super Bowl. But imagine if we didn't have football or basketball or hockey: where would all that male testosterone go? These sports are an outlet, give men a focus, a purpose.

So it's testosterone's fault??

Athletics... I'm not buying it. Too many steroids and other drugs in "play" in most sports and not just the "pro" level. There are plenty of men in the population who play no team sports and are not 'violent'. There are less "aggressive" sports such as biking, running, golf, tennis. If young men are 'mentally unstable' they, IMO, shouldn't be playing aggressive team sports. After all, what did men do to give themselves 'focus' and 'purpose' before there were the sports listed above???

Gangs??? Easy $$ and easy to recruit for the lifestyle with promises of a fancier lifestyle than what the individual currently has.

[boots-aregard]

One thing we can all do: get away from using oil.

Saudi Arabia is (some feel) just as bad as Isis/Daesh. They kill all kinds of "not-good-enough-for-us" Muslims as well as non-muslims. They bomb their neighbors indiscriminately. But the U.S. makes nice with Saudi Arabia (and other questionable states) because we need the oil.

Can we PLEASE wean ourselves from oil?

I sit on the freeway in rush hour traffic near tears at the # of gas-powered vehicles containing one person. And at the same time, I _get_ the problems with alternatives. Electric cars can't get me to SF and back on one charge for nannying. (though mass transit can, if I'm willing to walk at the endpoints). Tiny Smart cars can't manage child seats. Some of us still need tow vehicles for horse trailers. I get that.

But we _can_ try harder than we do. Solar panels. Geothermal heat. Hybrid cars AT LEAST, and if you must have a tow vehicle, only use it when you tow. Drive something *else* the rest of the time. Walk more.

In some counties in California (including my county, YAY!) the county has allowed a lending company to loan money to homeowners at 3% to make energy improvements in their homes. The homeowner picks what, but for me it will be solar panels (since I've already done insulation and gray water recycling). The loan is added as a Mello Roos tax to the tax bill and paid back as a part of property taxes over time. How sweet is that? I get the benefit as long as I live here, and when I move out, the person buying gets the benefit (and pays the remainder of the bill). This looks like a real creative step to me.

If we can cut our consumption by even 1/4 -- not cold turkey 100% but merely 25% which should be EASY in most cases -- we are less beholding to the questionable regimes that add fuel to the fires in the mideast.

Sure, you can respond with all the reasons why you _can't_ do this. And some people really can't. But many of us CAN. For many of us, this is a decision not an inability. Let's DECIDE.

[Chisamba]

The US was instrumental in the formation of ISIS when we parachuted in to Iraq, sent the Iraq military/Bathist (Sunnis) home with their arms (and no jobs) and then put a Shite (Malaki) in power who was entrenched in religious sectarianism. They went to Syria to fight Assad/Iran (Shite). In broad brush strokes.

http://www.juancole.com/2014/08/mistake ... untry.html

such a bizarre pov. radical islamic has been alive and well since before i was born, and I am fifty four. My grandfather and grandmother, from Lebanon, had to leave Lebanon to get married because she was of the Christian ( catholic) french lebanese, and he was not. he converted to christianity to marry her, and had to flee on a ship south. she waited for him for five years, and when he had made sufficient money to send for her, he did. My granny made trips to Lebanon to be with her family often but Grandpa did not. We never really thought about why, until it was found that he had changed his name when moving to Southern Africa, and had had to escape radical islamic people who wanted to kill him for becoming christian.

He spoke of the Brotherhood, organized by Al Banna ( look him up) who developed a very strong social brotherhood to provide services that were not being provided by the secular government. Unfortunately for him, the more radical of his group killed Al Nukrashi , and he was later assassinated, but the jihad inspired radical part of his organization lived on. Saudi Arabia is a big proponent of islamic radicalism, but the influence of Al Banna has led to croppings of jihad inspired radical islam in Russia, Lebanon, Africa, and of course Pakistan, Afghanistan etc.

So, radical islam has existed since the fourties, ( but historically it has probably been around forever, since the Moors were kicked out of spain) but the current generation has been active since the fourties. It was what toppled the empire of the Shah of Persia, ( now Iran) and inspires the Palestinians, and the Hezbollah in Lebanon, who , in case anyone forgot, the American captives in Lebanon ( remember Terry Anderson, anyone).

the bombing of the trade centers, which of course preceded the invasion of Bagdad, was a jihadi move. okay, al queda and ISIL only pledged allegiance to each other after the invasion but they preexisted it. ISIS itself began, or was recognised by the west in 1999, two years before 9/11. The first world trade center bombing, in 1993 is a pretty clear indication that organized fundamentalism was alive and well long before the Wests intelligence caught up with their organizations.

America, Britain, and of course france have made themselves targets, but it is only the arrogant narcissism of americans that think everything is about them that would feed this stupid idea that any American caused ISIS to form. we simply gave them another enemy.

[snftrs2]

Amen, Boots. I'm just in the midst of more home repairs and fixing. Can you tell me the name of the loan program that helps with energy efficiency changes? I just looked at PGE's program and was surprised to see their loans coming in at 6.5%. I'd only heard of Berkeley doing the Mello Roos loans and am glad to hear that it's spreading. It's a long haul to get this house renovated back into the 21st century but I finally see glimmers of hope.

[WheresMyWhite]

There are also solar panel companies that can give you information.

I am currently waiting for my local power company to replace the meter. I have solar panels on the rood based on a 20 year "lease" which covers a fixed cost per month plus small annual incremental cost (or you can purchase outright). You may end up paying a small amount to the utility company but I am expecting much less than what I paid this summer.

Excess power feeds back into the grid and results in credits with the utility company that then get drawn down when I use more electricity than the panels provide.

[boots-aregard]

Amen, Boots. I'm just in the midst of more home repairs and fixing. Can you tell me the name of the loan program that helps with energy efficiency changes? I just looked at PGE's program and was surprised to see their loans coming in at 6.5%. I'd only heard of Berkeley doing the Mello Roos loans and am glad to hear that it's spreading. It's a long haul to get this house renovated back into the 21st century but I finally see glimmers of hope.

Not sure how widespread this is, yet, since once I heard my county, I didn't bother recording any of the others...

Ygrene Energy Fund

[Koolkat]

Islamic "radical" fundamentalism and ISL are not synonyms. ISL is a subset of radical fundamentalism and actively seeks (declares) to establish a caliph/caliphate and "end times".

"In November, the Islamic State released an infomercial-like video tracing its origins to bin Laden. It acknowledged Abu Musa’b al Zarqawi, the brutal head of al‑Qaeda in Iraq from roughly 2003 until his killing in 2006, as a more immediate progenitor, followed sequentially by two other guerrilla leaders before Baghdadi, the caliph."

Interesting reading for anyone so inclined:
http://www.theatlantic.com/features/arc ... ts/384980/

[Spiritpaws]

WMW: you totally missed my point. The genetics of human kind include a period of high testosterone in men. When we were hunters and gatherers that energy was spent hunting for food and trying to survive. Move forward to the formation of towns, and all that male energy went into protecting the town, growing the food. Then of course there is the thousands of years of warfare...and the get drunk and screw.

Why do so many countries throughout the world have sports? Its a way for both players and spectators to let off steam. For boys it is a channel for that testosterone. Wouldn't you rather have people involved in sports than killing each other? If you are a disenfranchised youth in the US: you get a gun and shoot people. If you are a disenfranchised Muslim youth, you join ISIS or Al Shabob, or Al Quida.

Bombing is not going to solve the problem. The problem is youth who see no future. This is what needs to be addressed.

And yes, I do think it is past time that women started running things all over the world.

[carpevita]

SpiritPaws you give me room for thought here. I've never been a fan of organized sports and the endless funds poured into them--I see your point though and have rethought my position on the subject.
THANKS!!

[emmalou]

Interesting point that I haven't thought of before Spiritpaws. Society and our life styles are so different than they were even 100 years ago. Not only do sports give kids a physical outlet but also a sense of belonging, roll models, goals and teach respect, determination and hard work.

[Chancellor]

Interesting point that I haven't thought of before Spiritpaws. Society and our life styles are so different than they were even 100 years ago. Not only do sports give kids a physical outlet but also a sense of belonging, roll models, goals and teach respect, determination and hard work.

I wish the NFL would realize that we do get role models from sports....It's a damned shame that people like Michael Vick are playing in the NFL still.

[emmalou]

Yes. I was more thinking of youth coaches than actual professional players.

[Don Giovanni]

All these young men in the middle east...disenfranchised, hopeless for a future. Pick up a gun and relieve the tension. Join ISIS and have a purpose.

From a slightly different perspective but leading, I think, to the same idea...I read Malala Yousafzai's book and before I even got to the part where she was shot, just from reading the description of the area and the lifestyle and the circumstances, my recurring thought was "no wonder there is so much trouble in that part of the world". There seems to be endless frustration and resentment and lack of opportunity and outlet. There is awful corruption and nepotism. there seems to be too much "it's always been done like that so we wont/can't change", even if the "it" isn't working out so well anymore.
It was really quite eye opening ...

[Rhianon]

Access to the arts also gives people an outlet. Under the Taliban it was illegal to even sing folk music in your own home. I heard a heartbreaking interview with a young man who cobbled together a traditional instrument--can't remember the name, kind of like a mandolin--from bits he had in the house. His father was horrified because they could have been arrested for it. His great thrill when he managed to reach the west was to be able to play and listen to music. And we're not talking heavy metal--just the traditional music of his own culture.

[Figgy]

The US has problems as well. Follow the Guardian articles on America's poorest towns, life expectancy, crime and poverty are on a par with third world countries.

Look at the US statistics for gun deaths and the cynic in me wonders why Americans are getting on a tizz about Paris when the same number of deaths and injuries from gun violence on a typical weekday night appear to be the same as the Paris attacks. Seriously, you don't need to worry about ISIS, you've got the NRA achieving the same level of carnage and no one it batting an eyelid.

ISIS are a bunch of crazies and they don't represent mainstream Islam, just like the Klu Klux Klan don't represent mainstream America. Tarring everyone with the same brush doesn't help the situation, prejudice and ignorance adds to it.

[Ganas]

Lol, I would hardly say we're not batting an eyelid.

Anyway, I found this to be the best explanation of why we're so upset about Paris rather than some of the other things going on in the world.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/mon ... t-attacks/

[Spiritpaws]

I agree with you Figgy. The US has its own home-grown terrorists that don't belong to ISIS.

Rhiannon, you bring up an excellent point: the arts are another important outlet and expression. So many of those programs cut from schools. Art, music, dance, theatre are just as important as history and mathematics.

[Ganas]

I think that the US is currently fostering an idealogical and religious division that continues to widen and make us more like the Middle East every day. I don't feel that on the whole we're dismissing the violence, IMO either side is so passionate that they're blindly screaming past the other.

[BlueMayPop]

The western world is reaping what its been sowing since we butted in to that region so long ago.

I feel that even if the western world had not 'butted in' many years ago, groups like ISIS would still exist and would still be trying to build their "empire". The US and other countries simply gave them a target to focus their rhetoric on.

The earth might stop spinning in its axis, but I agree with you, WMW. Our butting in didn't help; in fact it may have hurried things along, but we are not entirely to blame. We have, however, made ourselves a good target.

Uh oh. I'm with you KathyK. And somewhat with WMW? Hath hell frozen over??

[BlueMayPop]

Ya, if you take the long view of history the middle east has had it's fair share of wars of conquest, ideology, etc., just like the rest of us. Didn't need the west to create it for them.

The Siege of Vienna, in the mid-1500s was when the Ottoman Turks came close to over-running central Europe, for example. And you really need a database to figure out all the different Arab tribal groups' battles over the centuries. Long before economies relied on oil.

Not to mention that the Arabs made it as far as Tours, France back in the 700's ad. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Tours

[BlueMayPop]

It occurred to me last night that the US would probably experience even more violence than we do now from gangs, and mentally unstable youth if we didn't have athletics. I don't watch football except for the Super Bowl. But imagine if we didn't have football or basketball or hockey: where would all that male testosterone go? These sports are an outlet, give men a focus, a purpose.

All these young men in the middle east...disenfranchised, hopeless for a future. Pick up a gun and relieve the tension. Join ISIS and have a purpose.

Necessary, but not sufficient. And you think they don't have sports in Syria and other Muslim countries? It takes way more than excess testosterone.

[BlueMayPop]

Islamic "radical" fundamentalism and ISL are not synonyms. ISL is a subset of radical fundamentalism and actively seeks (declares) to establish a caliph/caliphate and "end times".

"In November, the Islamic State released an infomercial-like video tracing its origins to bin Laden. It acknowledged Abu Musa’b al Zarqawi, the brutal head of al‑Qaeda in Iraq from roughly 2003 until his killing in 2006, as a more immediate progenitor, followed sequentially by two other guerrilla leaders before Baghdadi, the caliph."

Interesting reading for anyone so inclined:
http://www.theatlantic.com/features/arc ... ts/384980/

Uh huh, but the progenitor was Muhammed himself. He started Islam and it's always been a warrior religion. These radicals are, yes, going back to the "roots" (that's what radical means) but Islam has never had a reformation and it's been long overdue. But when anyone who disrespects the prophet or wants to leave the religion is taking their life into their hands, well then, that kind of makes it hard for anything to change. There are many, many ex-Muslims or even still Muslims who are calling for a reformation and risking their lives. Ali A. Rizvi and Maagid Nawaz are two. Google them.

[BlueMayPop]

Bombing is not going to solve the problem. The problem is youth who see no future. This is what needs to be addressed.

I disagree--that's way too simplistic. Religious ideology can make a huge difference in how youthful energy is directed. Islam has never been a religion of peace and never modified its basic beliefs since the time of Muhammed. That needs to change.

[KathyK]

Bombing is not going to solve the problem. The problem is youth who see no future. This is what needs to be addressed.

I disagree--that's way too simplistic. Religious ideology can make a huge difference in how youthful energy is directed. Islam has never been a religion of peace and never modified its basic beliefs since the time of Muhammed. That needs to change.

But disaffected youth, those who see no way to be a part of the society on whose edges they live, are easy fodder for gangs, cults, and fanatical religious groups, all of which welcome them and make them feel loved and accepted.

[BlueMayPop]

Plenty of the members of Islamist terrorist groups have been grown men with graduate degrees. It's just not that simple when it comes to a religious ideology.

[KathyK]

Plenty of the members of Islamist terrorist groups have been grown men with graduate degrees. It's just not that simple when it comes to a religious ideology.

And many of them also feel unwelcome and unable to practice their religion in the "West," and have come to hate us. Ever since 911, for which so many Americans blamed all Muslims, and then our invasion of Afghanistan, Muslims have very few places in the world to feel safe and welcome. Even people with graduate degrees can hate the West if they feel western hatred towards them, and see unwarranted retaliation toward innocent Muslims.

[BlueMayPop]

Plenty of the members of Islamist terrorist groups have been grown men with graduate degrees. It's just not that simple when it comes to a religious ideology.

And many of them also feel unwelcome and unable to practice their religion in the "West," and have come to hate us. Ever since 911, for which so many Americans blamed all Muslims, and then our invasion of Afghanistan, Muslims have very few places in the world to feel safe and welcome. Even people with graduate degrees can hate the West if they feel western hatred towards them, and see unwarranted retaliation toward innocent Muslims.

They're safer in the US and Europe to practice their religion than they are in much of the middle east. But that's far astray from my point. These "radicals" are just reverting to their original conquering, warrior religion. They'll kill anyone (including tens of thousands of Muslims) who are "wrong": wrong religion, wrong Islamic sect, wrong country, etc. Wrong sexual orientation, wrong sex, got raped, disrespected Islam in any way. etc. This is how Muhammed operated--they are simply emulating him. They have a seventh-century mentality.

Again, my point is this: don't try to simplify this--there are many factors involved, only one of which is hatred of the West. And much of that hatred is also injured pride: Islam was supposed to be the ascendant civilization and they failed.

[KathyK]

They're safer in the US and Europe to practice their religion than they are in much of the middle east.

I don't know that that is true. Can you provide some backup for that statement? Muslims are not very safe here, and haven't been since 911. There have been numerous accounts of people killed, mosques desecrated/destroyed, lots of hatred directed at Muslims. Think about it: one of the claims about Obama intended to do the most damage to his campaigns was (and to some, still is) that he's Muslim. The horror!