Give me some ideas to convince the old farts in town

[Chancellor]

I live in a lovely town called Princeton, Massachusetts. It really is very pretty and rural. When cable was making the rounds through the towns in the area, Princeton's utility poles were too short to accomodate cable as well as electricity and telephone. Back in the 80s the town made the decision to NOT have the town wired for cable.
Fast forward to today and the town has NO broadband. NONE. Approximately 20-30% of the homes have access to DSL but at 1-3 MBps it is not true broadband. MOST of the homes do not have access to it and Verizon has stated unequivocally that they will NOT expand DSL as it is dead technology.

My husband and I use cellular internet. So, we pay $200+ a month and we have a data cap of 40g a month. So, no streaming movies etc especially since DH works from home as do I periodically.

Our town has a had TWO broadband committees. The first committee met for several months and they went forward with a WiMax system which was an abysmal failure.
The second committee was formed to get fiber optic to the home. The problem? MANY of the older folks in town have said they do not want or need broadband. Our school is dying because no young families have moved it (would you if you had kids?).

DH is an expert in these technologies. We have three selectpeople on our board. One of them keeps bringing up the "risks" of doing fiber optic to the home. He keeps saying 5G cellular is coming (it is not currently in NYC so ya think it is moving to Princeton anytime soon?) He keeps talking about the failed WiMax system and how the guy is doing all sorts of things to improve it and that recent tests have shown great speed. Recent tests that were likely performed during winter when there are no leaves on the trees and was the least snowy winter in something like 20 years.

Doing a pretty decent analysis between an adjoining town and Princeton, it looks like homes will be worth 64k more if we were to get broadband into town. IF the fiber optic to the home project was an abysmal failure, it would add approximately $100 dollars/year to the yearly tax bill.

So, if you are one of the people who think, DSL is just fine for me (and doesn't give a damn about others who don't have that option). Or who think we don't need no stinking internet, what MIGHT convince you to support this?

[WheresMyWhite]

If I was someone who thought I didn't need no stinkin' internet, I'm not sure there is something that would convince me given that, big assumption here, these are mostly older, non-tech people who are not overly concerned about property resale value or technology.

I would be a bit surprised that a home would increase $64K if they had broadband over DSL but that's just me.

Do you have property taxes?

How would some type of upgraded broadband system be funded??

Never been in Princeton but have driven around in MA (and NH). In the older areas, lovely homes for sure I'd want to know that my home value wouldn't decrease with all the road construction and mess associated with laying some type of fiber.

Me? If I wanted high speed internet, I wouldn't be considering wi-fi/microwave... I want buried fiber

[Chancellor]

If I was someone who thought I didn't need no stinkin' internet, I'm not sure there is something that would convince me given that, big assumption here, these are mostly older, non-tech people who are not overly concerned about property resale value or technology.

I would be a bit surprised that a home would increase $64K if they had broadband over DSL but that's just me.

Do you have property taxes?

How would some type of upgraded broadband system be funded??

Never been in Princeton but have driven around in MA (and NH). In the older areas, lovely homes for sure I'd want to know that my home value wouldn't decrease with all the road construction and mess associated with laying some type of fiber.

Me? If I wanted high speed internet, I wouldn't be considering wi-fi/microwave... I want buried fiber

64k is the average! Of course, the comparison is to a neighboring town. Both towns are VERY VERY similar except that Princeton has no internet. Remember that the MAJORITY of homes in Princeton cannot get DSL. AND, if you SELL your house and you have DSL, there is no guarantee that the BUYER of your house can get DSL because there is a waiting list for it.

The fiber apparently is strung along the (now taller) utility poles. So, no road construction really to worry about.

You are correct in your assumption that these are older people who are not overly techy! EVENTUALLY, they may need to move out of town into a nursing home or assisted living facility. Princeton is um, rustic, at best. I can't imagine being 80 or 90 years old and still living in town.

I am looking for the needle in the haystack here. Hoping SOMEONE can come up with a different idea about why broadband would be good for the town aside from bringing in younger families, allowing work from home etc.

[WheresMyWhite]

How would fiber installation be funded???

Older people are usually very concerned about their cost of living increasing.

Will the one selectperson quantify what the "risks" are to bringing fiber to each home??? I'd tackle identifying the risks and concerns so you know where that needle is.

I think rather than focus on "why it's good" focus on why not doing it is bad (if that makes sense).

[Chancellor]

The plan is to fund most of it by subscribers. But if it is an absymal failure, then the town would be on the hook for it. Which would add around $100/year/household for I think 20 years.

Oh that selectman has quantified the risks. He keeps saying that 5G is coming and that would take away from the subscribers to the town service (see earlier post about WHEN that might come). He keeps touting the WiMax system as coming out with new and improved and that the testing of it has gone well (see earlier post about why that testing wasn't really testing at all).

[WheresMyWhite]

Hummmm...

Where are the other two selectpersons on broadband???

Can you find via GTS any other "issues" with that WiMax? Looks like it is microwave??? That, IMO, is problematic in "crappy" weather... either snow or rain. Plus potential line of sight concerns.

I personally as a techie would not consider WiMax as a viable internet connection mode. Give me DSL over that even.

Funding via subscribers, as you said, is an issue if it isn't successful. I realize that the $100/year doesn't seem like much until you are on a fixed income and don't care about internet... and even if these people are "old" and won't be living there in 20 years, they are living there now and don't necessarily see the value in increasing the value of their home.

I used to live in a county with a very low tax rate and many retired people and getting tax increases approved by the voters (required by law) was a b*tch and not usually successful.

Could the cost of the install be rolled into a "fee" (or something) that only subscribers would pay? Any way to get Cox, Comcast or other entertainment provider to help foot this bill by offering better entertainment services than DSL offers?

IMO, the "way" can't be a technical reason... it has to be something appealing to "everyone" (no, you will never get a single solution that appeals to everyone) and is cost effective regardless of why having broadband is a good technical thing... (i.e., try to solve this problem leaving the "technical" out of it...) Be "old" and "retired" and not caring of broadband or how much your resale value would go up and think of what would convince you...

I suspect I am overall not helping but hoping with a different perspective to see if some magic lightbulb goes on - short of moving... I can imagine your pain. I have, in the past when I've moved, always asked what my internet connection options are before buying. Yes, it does sound like many people are not considering your town in which to buy a home. Yes, resale is being impacted but until someone is actually going to sell their house, this is a non-issue. Does your town have a property tax?

[Wicky]

Can you have a tax break for retired people, or seniors over X (where X recedes by one year on my birthday because I refuse to be called a senior)? Mt parents live in a town where seniors get a tax break on real estate taxes.

[piedmontfields]

I'll be curious to hear the outcome. We use cellular internet, too, but we don't typically work from home more than a few hours at a time.

Would the entertainment factor (checking out videos from the digital catalogue or using streaming services or entertaining the grandkids or encouraging the adult children to visit because they can work when visiting) be of value to citizens?

[heddylamar]

Do they want the town to grow? Is there data showing the influx v. departure of tech, young professionals, families, etc?

Broadband is a necessity for us. WiMAX is a joke.

We passed up a larger, cheaper piece of property due to the lack of broadband in the area. The land we ended up buying is a compromise -- there's cable (Comcast), but no FIOS. Given our prior experience with Comcast, I hope that doesn't comeback and bite us in the ass.

Can you put together a petition for interested households? I wouldn't presume that all households will participate, and the project should be funded accordingly.

It's too bad you don't live in NH. There's some funky rule about providers having to provide the same service to every household, at no cost to the subscriber ... or something like that. It may have been specific to my parent's township, but their eventual provider had to come out, put in a pole and run cable at no cost to them.

[no.stirrups]

It sounds as though some "expert testimony" might be handy, to refute the "facts" being slung by the one selectperson. Several experts who agree with each other and support your position could really bolster your argument. The other stumbling block sounds like the cost. Perhaps you could find out how many subscribers would be needed and get them to sign a pledge in advance to subscribe? Or at least do a poll/survey of households to show intent to subscribe. You could maybe also invite some teachers to talk about how they would use the service to benefit students.

[WheresMyWhite]

I think the challenge for Chancellor is if there is a high % of older people, technology and the ability to have a high speed internet connection *or* impact of the sale price of their property aren't huge priorities.

These are all good, valid arguments if you want internet connection and if you are concerned about resale of your home.

If there is a high % of "old farts", none of these arguments will really work. That's why I was suggesting putting yourself in their shoes and see what you think might sway them. I know of older people who don't even want email because they're afraid of identity theft. Doesn't make a difference if that is true or not if that is what they are afraid of...

IMO, it needs to have no financial impact to the old farts and depending on how broadband is funded, that will or won't be the case...

Yes, sigh...

[Tarlo Farm]

My HotSpot only costs $50/month. I could stream movies if I chose to pay twice that for the additional data. If streaming movies is your only issue, why not just NOT worry about streaming anything? Netflix mails me DVDs on demand, the local video store is well-stocked, there's the library...
Speaking of that, what does the library use? DSL too?

[clanter]

Can you have a tax break for retired people, or seniors over X (where X recedes by one year on my birthday because I refuse to be called a senior)? Mt parents live in a town where seniors get a tax break on real estate taxes.

The median age is 40 years less than 9% if Princeton is over 65

28.9% under the age of 18, 4.8% from 18 to 24, 27.8% from 25 to 44, 29.9% from 45 to 64, and 8.5% who were 65 years of age or older.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Princeton ... #Geography

my town 20% is over 65 and we have fiber but I do not remember us paying a cent for the service

[clanter]

I'd want to know that my home value wouldn't decrease with all the road construction and mess associated with laying some type of fiber.
... I want buried fiber

not a mess, mostly line bored with hydraulic rams ...

[clanter]

ok, solved by the Whitehouse

The ConnectED initiative will, within five years, connect 99 percent of America’s students, through next-generation broadband (at speeds no less than 100Mbps and with a target of 1Gbps) to, and high-speed wireless within, their schools and libraries. The President is calling on the Federal Communications Commission (FCC) to modernize and leverage the existing E-Rate program, and leverage the expertise of the National Telecommunications and Information Administration (NTIA) to deliver this connectivity to states, districts, and schools.

https://www.whitehouse.gov/sites/defaul ... _sheet.pdf

[WheresMyWhite]

I'd want to know that my home value wouldn't decrease with all the road construction and mess associated with laying some type of fiber.
... I want buried fiber

not a mess, mostly line bored with hydraulic rams ...

Guess we'd have to agree to disagree

Still have trucks that have to drive on the street easements, blocking traffic, the actual install machinery. I know it isn't trenching as might have used to have been done, so certainly less of a mess than old style but still a mess.

[Chancellor]

I'd want to know that my home value wouldn't decrease with all the road construction and mess associated with laying some type of fiber.
... I want buried fiber

not a mess, mostly line bored with hydraulic rams ...

Guess we'd have to agree to disagree

Still have trucks that have to drive on the street easements, blocking traffic, the actual install machinery. I know it isn't trenching as might have used to have been done, so certainly less of a mess than old style but still a mess.

Actually neither. It will be strung on poles. So, no mess. Little Fuss.

[WheresMyWhite]

I've been thinking more about this.

Is there some type of regular "social" event your target "audience" attends?? Bingo or similar?

The politicians are going to do what they think the voters want. I'd try to find out from the "old farts" (and I'm sure you meant this in humor but it still bugs me ) what their concerns are with having access to broadband and work from there. Like I said earlier... the "technical" responses are going to go over their heads so, IMO, best to approach it from their viewpoint.

I'd also disagree (although maybe not correctly having never seen Princeton but having seen many other small MA towns ) - no mess and little fuss is a bit of an understatement. What about all those pieces of heavy equipment needed to haul the rolls of cable around and the buckets to put workers to the poles to mount the cable? And more unsightly cable in the air and to the house. And what if some poles need to replaced due to age and wear and tear? Any solution (well other than the undesired microwave) is going to have some amount of PITA and mess so best to not completely blow it off. Rather find out what it will be so homeowners are prepared instead of getting annoyed at a mess they were told wouldn't happen.

[TeresaA]

When we were shopping for our farm it was a non-negotiable that there would be high speed internet access. There are still many communities that you can just get dial up.
So I would say that the ability to sell down the road would be key. Even if they are luddites they will appreciate that there will be value added to their home.

[Chancellor]

The biggest concern is that the town may have to foot the bill if this becomes an abysmal failure. The detractors of this would like to have someone ELSE foot the bill. Well, the problem is that the time for that is gone. If Princeton had done upgraded their utility poles back when cable was being strung we wouldn't be in this predicament now.

More unsightly cable? Really? What difference does one more wire on the poles make?

[Chancellor]

When we were shopping for our farm it was a non-negotiable that there would be high speed internet access. There are still many communities that you can just get dial up.
So I would say that the ability to sell down the road would be key. Even if they are luddites they will appreciate that there will be value added to their home.

Nope. That is NOT key at all. I know. Can you believe it?

[WheresMyWhite]

Where does the town get their revenue? Property taxes? (I am pretty clueless on how "taxachusetts" works )

And yes, I can believe that for an older person, future resale value isn't a big concern...

[Chancellor]

Every possible tax they can get!
I cannot imagine NOT being concerned about future resales. I mean, let's face it, eventually you are going to want to move out of a town where they only sand the streets AFTER the snow has stopped falling (so they don't plow it back up).

[WheresMyWhite]

I know Taxachusetts earned it's name

Just trying to get some 'out of the box' thinking

Why do *you* care about the value of your home for resale? Most likely to help pay for your next residence. I'm wondering if many of the owners figure their next residence is 6' under. At that point, resale value really only affects the estate/inheritance.

Since your town taxes "everything" then jack up the %s to cover broadband.

Out of curiosity, have you talked to a possible broadband provider or two to see what it would cost to bring broadband to the town? Cost difference buried vs overhead? Incentives to get the provider to foot the install costs?

FWIW, I spent 6 years as a member of my former county's Citizen Budget Oversight Committee. County level broadband was never an issue due to geographic limitations but funding/expenses was always a challenge for a tax-constrained county. Sometimes, creativity is required to make things happen. Part of that creativity is really trying to understand the blocks and how to work around them or remove them.

[Chancellor]

Yes, I am guessing the people are thinking their next home is 6' under. But wouldn't you want to be able to sell your house in case you needed to move to assisted living? Or what about their heirs? Eventually Princeton will become a town of open space and crack houses!

Yes, we have tried getting cable companies to come in. No one is interested. The AVERAGE driveway in Princeton is 100 yards long (that's the AVERAGE) and the cable companies are no longer stringing cable. This bringing broadband to Princeton project has been going on since we moved to town it seems (maybe 1-2 years less than that).

The broadband cost as designed right now will be $100/month. If we get 600 homes to sign up, it will pay for the installation. BUT, if it fails absymally, the tax payer will be on the stick for it.

[lorilu]

Is satellite an option?

[WheresMyWhite]

You may never get acceptable broadband in Princeton.

Could you raise property taxes with a sunset provision so the town can pay for cable install and spread the install costs over everyone and not just people who want it?

Have you actually asked any of the old farts to see if they are concerned about resale value of their property?

Are there any other similar towns in MA with similar, older neighborhoods where cable/fiber didn't exist as part of the town infrastructure that were successful in getting a cable company in or some other acceptable broadband in???

[Chancellor]

You may never get acceptable broadband in Princeton.

Could you raise property taxes with a sunset provision so the town can pay for cable install and spread the install costs over everyone and not just people who want it?

Have you actually asked any of the old farts to see if they are concerned about resale value of their property?

Are there any other similar towns in MA with similar, older neighborhoods where cable/fiber didn't exist as part of the town infrastructure that were successful in getting a cable company in or some other acceptable broadband in???

Yes. A small town in the western part of the state has successfully brought in broadband as part of the municipality. In other words, the town brought it in and paid for it. And they have I think 85% buy in by the town.

[WheresMyWhite]

Yes. A small town in the western part of the state has successfully brought in broadband as part of the municipality. In other words, the town brought it in and paid for it. And they have I think 85% buy in by the town.

And IMO therein lies the key then. The town paid for it (yes, ignoring for the moment the 85% buy-in).

As I'm still not sure if Princeton has a property/real estate tax, if they do - I would float some type of increase to pay a provider for the infrastructure with a sunset clause on the tax increase. I would also ensure the tax increase revenue must go to a "restricted" fund (not sure what your town would call it) such that any revenue must be spent only on the broadband infrastructure. Subscribers must pay for the run from the street to the house.

Bottom line for most people is what is it going to cost me. Tax increases are not always palatable but with the sunset proviso along with restricting how the revenue is to be spent, might have a chance of getting it to fly.

If your town has a senior center bingo night... go Talk to the people who aren't interested. Ask them why they don't care about resale (maybe they do and the "convincing arguments" are all in the wrong direction). Ask them what would help them say yes. Maybe have an open Q&A or round table at the senior center. Sometimes talking to the politicians will just drive you nuts (as you have already found out) and may also be giving you incorrect or misleading information.