Breakfast with Mama: The Final Chapter

Kathy Johnson
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Breakfast with Mama: The Final Chapter

Postby Kathy Johnson » Sun Oct 18, 2015 1:13 pm

Keep Her, Sell Her, Give Her Away or Euthanize Her?

Tough, tough, tough question. Mama is going to kill someone or she is going to kill herself. The other day I took a bucket of grain in the run to feed her. She caught a small piece of her halter on the side of the bucket. Giant explosion. She flung her head and reared straight in the air, almost impaling herself on the ceiling. The she ran backwards, her hind feed slipping in the mud, her legs doing out, almost falling, then leaping to catch her balance. No. After three years of the quietest, calmest handling, of slow, systematic desensitization, she still goes into panic even with the person she trusts the most. She still is not safe in civilization.

I took Mama to a friend’s pasture to see how she would do. Loading took about 6 hours. If I were in an emergency, she would not escape the fire. Loading her back up to bring her home took two days. How can it possibly take two days to load a horse? Day one consisted mostly of catching her. She still is not safe in civilization and we are not safe with her.

I rode her once. Been there, done that, got the picture. But in my gut, somehow I think I knew. Mama did not want to be ridden. My trainer friend Kim put in 30 rides on Mama. Gentle, easy, in the roundpen, quiet. Walking around the big arena.

And then one day, Kim asked the question. The question to which I now always know the correct answer, but did not at the time. Kim said, “Hey, I’m going to try to get on Mama and ride her bareback. Can you stay out here for a little while and watch?” The correct answer is not “yes” or “no.” The correct answer is “if you need me to stay out here to dial 911, just don’t do whatever it is you’re thinking of doing.”
Kim got on bareback. Then Mama took maybe two steps and swirled, bucked and dumped Kim in the dirt. Kim got up and shook the dust off. In a combination panic attack/adrenaline surge, I felt a tort coming on.

So, Kim started Mama all the way at the beginning again. Total do over, always the right thing to do when something bad happens. But something bad continued to happen. Mama had found her calling. Remember she was born and bred of bucking stock mustangs, rough stock, tough desert mustangs culled to go to rodeos as bucking horses. Boy, could she buck. Even after being started over, when Kim got on to ride, she bucked her off.
Kim wisely bowed out of training Mama. I knew I never wanted to ride her again. But there’s always another person ready to try. Enter Alida, natural horsewoman, athletic, young and brave as all get out. She started Mama over again, all the way back at the beginning again, always the right thing to do. Things went fine until the actual riding began. And one day, Mama bucked Alida off like this:

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Keep her:

Mama is still not safe in civilization and we are not safe with her. I called off all riding. Can I justify keeping Mama in a facility that was not safe for her? She can never be used in lessons, and only in a very few individual sessions. She does not earn her keep. She is difficult to worm, to trim her feet, to vaccinate or to work with a vet. A busy equine assisted psychotherapy facility with lots of children and volunteers was not the right place, given her continued violent behavior.

Sell her

You don’t want to sell a horse like this. Normally, I would raise the price above meat market prices. This ensures the horse won’t sell so low she ends back up on the feedlot. But putting any kind of price on her implies some sort of value. If it’s a free horse, well, its taker beware. I want to be absolutely truthful so that no one thinks they can actually ride her. But that’s tricky. Once a human’s ego is invoked, they can get really set on trying to do something to prove it can be done. But why die?

Give her away

I called all equine rescues and sanctuaries. Rescues were full. Mustang sanctuaries would not take her either because: A. She was a Navajo mustang, not a BLM mustang. B. We would have to pay a huge sponsorship fee, and it would be cheaper to keep her at home. As a 501c3, we try not to let our budget interfere with the care of the horses, but I do have to maintain fiscal responsibility for the whole place.
I could maybe find a pasture situation, but it’s going to be really hard to catch her in a field and harder still if she has to be trailered. And is she really “safe” in a pasture? If she gets hurt, no vet can touch her. If there’s evacuation, you can’t trailer her. And in the end, if I give her away or sell her, knowing what she is, there’s a chance she could end up on the feedlot, headed for slaughter again. No horse should have to be rescued twice. But is the alternative better?

Euthanasia

This is where I lose sleep at night. Did I fail? Have I done enough? Is there hope? The horse is healthy not sick, injured or old. I consulted the AAEP Euthanasia Guidelines. These are the common reasons for euthanasia:
• Incurable, progressive disease
• Incurable, transmissible disease
• Chronic severe lameness
• Inoperable colic
• Foals born with serious defects
• Debilitation in old age
• Severe traumatic injury
• Dangerous behavioral traits
• Undue financial burden of caring for a sick or incapacitated horse
• Undue suffering for any reason

She does not qualify on any of the health issues. But she does have dangerous behavioral traits. The tricky part is she really doesn’t have dangerous behavior if you just leave her alone. She likes to be alone. She doesn’t really need or like people around. I hate to destroy a healthy, happy soul just because she doesn’t fit into our world. But I also don’t feel good turning her loose in the world knowing she could really hurt someone, or herself.
I talked to all my friends. Some said it was my duty to euthanize her to prevent her from ever suffering again. Some said she was my responsibility and I owed her a peaceful end. Some said that any chance was better than none. But no one I knew wanted to give her that chance, to take her, to promise her that forever home that does not exist for horses anymore.

And that was the end of my logical thinking, my flow charts, my data analysis. I had to go to my heart, my gut, my love, my horse. I had to go to Mama to find out what to do.

As I had in the beginning, I sat outside her run and observed her. She moved quietly around the pen, eating, listening, living her Mama life, leaving barefoot hoofprints in the dust, ringed arrowheads of strength and sorrow, timeless symbols, transient marks upon the land.

In the end, it wasn’t that hard to do. Her life wasn’t mine to take. I gave Mama another chance, a home at a ranch where she could stay with colts when the other horses were being worked. She would not be ridden. No one would mess with her. And at this juncture in our lives, I let Mama go. I do not control her fate. I may never know what happens to her. In the end, it will all be the same. Her spirit, the wild toss of windknotted mane, the flash of angry eyes, the drumming hoof, the startled snort, her spirit stays with me. Her life is hers.

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Re: Breakfast with Mama: The Final Chapter

Postby Amado » Sun Oct 18, 2015 2:14 pm

Wow. Beautifully written. Hope you are keeping all of your horse stories - they'd make a fantastic book. I rode a horse like that a few times when I was riding for an old racehorse trainer - every new thing, he would completely explode. Got so we could walk/trot/center on the lunge line, me riding, trainer directing, but if I touched him in a new place, or put my legs farther back than he was used to, it looked just like the photos you posted. Once, he launched me so high that I flew straight up and landed like a frog on his rump, and then was bucked off from there! They ended up selling him to a rodeo. Not sure what happened after that.

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Re: Breakfast with Mama: The Final Chapter

Postby carpevita » Sun Oct 18, 2015 2:33 pm

Very powerfully written, and those photos are alarming.
I hope she gets to live out her days as you set it up for her, but if not I would not hesitate to euthanize.
Mostly because I think quality of life is more important than quantity, and she could very well hurt someone and/or come to a bad end.
A heartbreaking place to be, I realize.

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Re: Breakfast with Mama: The Final Chapter

Postby Kathy Johnson » Sun Oct 18, 2015 2:42 pm

I actually explored the possibility of rodeo, just because I was exploring every opportunity. They said she was too small for the pro rodeos but might work for high school rodeos. I didn't go further, because I'm not a fan of rodeos and didn't want to take responsibility for hurting high school children.

Yes, quality of life v. quantity. Another tough one to gauge. How much quality is worth a bad end? That's a rhetorical question. I have no idea.

When my son was young and I was working a lot I explained the concept of quality and quantity time with him. He just looked up and said, "I want QUANTITY quality time."

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Re: Breakfast with Mama: The Final Chapter

Postby KathyK » Sun Oct 18, 2015 3:32 pm

Thank you for sharing the last chapter of yours and Mama's story. You did everything you could for her, right up to your last act of kindness.

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Re: Breakfast with Mama: The Final Chapter

Postby PaulaO » Sun Oct 18, 2015 3:43 pm

Thank you for sharing this story. I would have no qualms about putting down a dangerous horse, and Mama is. Those pictures truly are terrifying. But you found a solution that works right for both of you. Kudos.

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Re: Breakfast with Mama: The Final Chapter

Postby bits » Sun Oct 18, 2015 5:14 pm

I would have no problems putting her down.

http://www.thehorse.com/articles/35816/ ... ick-humane

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Re: Breakfast with Mama: The Final Chapter

Postby Abby Kogler » Sun Oct 18, 2015 6:02 pm

Oy, Kathy. What a sad tale.

In the event of not having found that ranch home which might be a safe place for her, I would have had no problem euthanizing her. It is always sad, and I hate doing it, but a horse so clearly troubled and dangerous should be euthed for its *own* protection, not just that of people who might encounter it.

I am curious, just for the sake of curious. Were you guys ever able to do a work up? was she ever on any kind of whatever, joint lube, calming, Ace, bute, anything? as in experimenting with therapies, either drug or vet? the times I have seen or come across horses like this its usually been a pinched nerve or serious spinal arthritis, something that when they move in a sudden way, like her realizing she was attached to the bucket, or with a rider, and kaboom! into orbit they go.

I really credit your efforts, bless you for trying. If I threw all my usual things at her and she still did this kind of reaction I would put her down with a clean conscience.

Thanks for sharing that interesting story. You write so well.

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Re: Breakfast with Mama: The Final Chapter

Postby redsoxluvr » Sun Oct 18, 2015 6:07 pm

I would have put the horse down before rehoming her. Clearly, you feel a commitment to the mare which is admirable.
However, others may not have that same commitment. What happens when her management becomes a burden?
What if she colics, or needs vet care? Are you comfortable with the fact that another human would be in harm's way with this horse?

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Re: Breakfast with Mama: The Final Chapter

Postby TeresaB » Sun Oct 18, 2015 8:00 pm

Thanks for the story, I always enjoy reading about your horse adventures.

I see no fault if you had chosen euthanasia. In my mind, I would have peace knowing the end of the story.

You did what you thought was best for her and that is admirable.

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Re: Breakfast with Mama: The Final Chapter

Postby Kathy Johnson » Sun Oct 18, 2015 8:35 pm

I am curious, just for the sake of curious. Were you guys ever able to do a work up? was she ever on any kind of whatever, joint lube, calming, Ace, bute, anything? as in experimenting with therapies, either drug or vet? the times I have seen or come across horses like this its usually been a pinched nerve or serious spinal arthritis, something that when they move in a sudden way, like her realizing she was attached to the bucket, or with a rider, and kaboom! into orbit they go.


The vet was able to watch her go and we did some general neuro tests on her, but weren't able to do spinal taps or x rays or anything like that. She didn't see anything. I too have worked on horses with neurological issues, kissing spine, etc. and it this didn't seem the same. This mare had been traumatized and was very afraid of people. It's really hard to pull some of the older broodmares out of the wild and do much with them--very set in their ways.

What happens when her management becomes a burden?
She will be euthanized and buried in the field where she is. We are in the west and horses sometimes are born, live and die in the same fields, the same as the wild horses.

What if she colics, or needs vet care?
Ditto.

Are you comfortable with the fact that another human would be in harm's way with this horse?
The friends who took her knew her complete story, are very experienced horse people and helped with the final loading marathon. They are quite sure they will never move her again. But, if anything unforeseen happens that they can not keep her, I must trust them to do what's right. That's a hard stretch, to trust people to do what they say they will do, but that is out of my control.

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Re: Breakfast with Mama: The Final Chapter

Postby Josette » Sun Oct 18, 2015 9:03 pm

This mare has a wild soul. You invested the time and money trying to rehab her - nothing more can be done. It sounds like she is in a good place now.

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Re: Breakfast with Mama: The Final Chapter

Postby PNG_Pony » Sun Oct 18, 2015 9:15 pm

Thanks for sharing this story; I've been following it since the beginning like so many!

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Re: Breakfast with Mama: The Final Chapter

Postby Kathy Johnson » Sun Oct 18, 2015 9:42 pm

It was a hard story to end well, but I knew that from the beginning. For years, I've walked a fine line on euthanasia, for it, against, judging those who do it, who don't do it, ok for this horse, not for that. If nothing else, Mama taught me not to judge. Everyone is usually doing the best they can, faced with hard decisions. I find it interesting because for me it was about control.

Mama and I, our one ride.

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Re: Breakfast with Mama: The Final Chapter

Postby Tsuy » Sun Oct 18, 2015 9:56 pm

Beautifully written story
You will know what is the right thing to do when the time comes
but also know that you have given her more than most people would be able to
and whatever choice you make will be made with her best interests in mind

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Re: Breakfast with Mama: The Final Chapter

Postby Flight » Mon Oct 19, 2015 12:11 am

I think she was very fortunate to be with you and you've done as much as you could possibly do.
It is an amazing story, thankyou.

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Re: Breakfast with Mama: The Final Chapter

Postby bailey » Mon Oct 19, 2015 3:34 am

Thank you for the final chapter Kathy, I've also followed along and really enjoyed getting to know the whole story of Mama. I've learned a lot from Mama's story and love how you described your decision making process. It seems right to me that it came down to trusting your gut or your heart. In my mind much of riding and horses is from the gut or by feel. Mama was lucky to have you and I think she'll be ok in her new home.
ps you both look happy in the picture!

The calmer I am, the stronger I am.

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Re: Breakfast with Mama: The Final Chapter

Postby Rockabilly » Mon Oct 19, 2015 9:58 pm

It's hell being a grown-up sometimes and I think your decision is a very mature well thought out decision and certainly not that you need my "approval", but I do approve of your whole thought process in this situation. These are words I don't say too often in a horse situation because I went to the absolute ends of the earth for mine.

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Re: Breakfast with Mama: The Final Chapter

Postby M&M » Tue Oct 20, 2015 1:55 am

Obviously a very thoroughly thought out decision, and one I understand and respect. You are an amazing horsewoman, and a moving writer.
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Re: Breakfast with Mama: The Final Chapter

Postby Rhianon » Tue Oct 20, 2015 5:24 am

My farrier said to me one sad day "There are just some you can't fix."

You've given her one last chance. Peace to you and Mama.

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Re: Breakfast with Mama: The Final Chapter

Postby FlyingLily » Tue Oct 20, 2015 11:49 am

I've really enjoyed the entire Mama story, and I agree with the poster above who said this should be a book.

Of all the possible fates lined up for this horse in the multiverse, she lucked into the best one when she found you.

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Re: Breakfast with Mama: The Final Chapter

Postby piedmontfields » Tue Oct 20, 2015 2:12 pm

Peace to you.

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Re: Breakfast with Mama: The Final Chapter

Postby saltheart » Tue Oct 20, 2015 2:36 pm

"Obviously a very thoroughly thought out decision, and one I understand and respect. You are an amazing horsewoman, and a moving writer."
This ^^

Thank you for sharing with us. I think it took as much courage to find a willing home for her as it would have to euthanize her. I hope she's realizing a small bit of happiness now in her new situation.

Cheers,
Salty

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Re: Breakfast with Mama: The Final Chapter

Postby Kathy Johnson » Tue Oct 20, 2015 2:48 pm

Thanks, guys. At some point, when life calms down a bit, I will probably self publish. I am not looking for approval or disapproval, because I know how controversial the whole subject of euthanasia is.

I used to have a policy that if the horse could get up and down and eat, I would not euthanize. I was very condemning of people who put horses down for financial reasons. They could no longer afford to care for the aging or ill horse, so they would euthanize. But now I am a lot more understanding of the kind of financial and mental stress caring for such a horse can be. I always just thought it would be easy to find a home who could afford to care for the horse. But no longer. When the recession hit, forever homes disappeared.

I've never believed in slaughter houses. What, you make maybe $300 if your horse sells at auction? I feel that if a home can not be found, the horse should be euthanized rather than sent to auction. It only costs $300 to have your horse euthanized and the body disposed of. If you can't afford that, you can't afford a horse.

And that's when it dawned on me that it's not individuals causing the unwanted horse population explosion. An individual can afford $300. It's the big breeders, the ones who breed 50 or more horses a year, the big QH, TB, Arab, paint/pinto breeders. And mustangs are at risk because they are so cheap. But those big breeders can't afford to euthanize their unwanted horses, because it might cost $6000 a year versus $6000 a year they can make selling them at auction.

So I no longer judge back yard breeders. Most back yard breeders are breeding 1 horse a year, and the foal already has a home.

I watched this phenomena happen at an Andalusian ranch. And I saw first hand how it goes. I would never have thought that Andalusians would need to be rescued in America. But this farm had an auction with 50 mares and foals for sale, the older horses, the young ones, the yearlings. No horse sold for above $1600. So, it's happening here in America same as it does in Europe. Papers are not available and bloodlines are lots.

We got this filly for $150. Never been touched except to be roped to be branded and haltered. Full of worms, with upward fixating patellas. The girls in our addiction program named her Esperanza but I call her Squishy.

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And guess what. Five days after the ranch auction, Andalusians with the same brand and horses I saw at the auction ended up at the Centennial Livestock Auction, our local kill auction. Rescues had to step in again to help. Sad.

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Re: Breakfast with Mama: The Final Chapter

Postby Alex » Tue Oct 20, 2015 5:55 pm

Livestock is a very ethically iffy business to attempt to make money if you're not intending to sell meat animals. Heck, even selling geese, hogs or beef for meat you can lose your shirt if the conditions are right. Horses and dogs are no different. They're treated as COMMODITIES when they're really NOT.

I'm sorry Mama surprised you w/several episodes of explosive behavior. i'm sure Mama experienced terrifying episodes in the mustang capture process and then in the mustang holding pens that fried her brain and branded her nerves w/the explosive triggers that you couldn't decipher. That's a tough history to overcome and it takes virtually no mistakes at all to add those events in domesticated life to her mental list of death threats to herself. You found a wonderful solution for her to live out her life...

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Re: Breakfast with Mama: The Final Chapter

Postby heronponie » Tue Oct 20, 2015 6:24 pm

Kathy, you're a class act.

Loved following your story with Mama (and many others!) and totally agree with your last post. I hope you can get Esperenza turned around smoothly.

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Re: Breakfast with Mama: The Final Chapter

Postby M&M » Wed Oct 21, 2015 1:36 am

Kathy said I could post this photo of her other mustang, Rosa. I love this photo.

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Re: Breakfast with Mama: The Final Chapter

Postby Lammont » Wed Oct 21, 2015 12:20 pm

I believe you did the best that anyone could do for Mama. She is as close to being a wild horse again as she could be - and I think that is a true gift for her. Bless you for doing all you did for her. Thank you for sharing her story with us.

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Re: Breakfast with Mama: The Final Chapter

Postby Don Giovanni » Wed Oct 21, 2015 2:49 pm

Beautiful story, beautifully written, and with the best possible ending. Thanks for sharing.

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Re: Breakfast with Mama: The Final Chapter

Postby heddylamar » Wed Oct 21, 2015 7:11 pm

Mama was lucky to find such a compassionate and sensible person in you, Kathy. That's a tough decision, and not something to be taken lightly.

We had a very similar situation with a mare who was rescued from horrifying circumstances.

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Re: Breakfast with Mama: The Final Chapter

Postby M&M » Thu Oct 22, 2015 10:57 pm

Lammont wrote:I believe you did the best that anyone could do for Mama. She is as close to being a wild horse again as she could be - and I think that is a true gift for her. Bless you for doing all you did for her. Thank you for sharing her story with us.


Nodding in agreement. "she is as close to being a wild horse again..." that's what I have been wanting to say, so thank you, Lammont, for putting it into the words I couldn't find.
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Re: Breakfast with Mama: The Final Chapter

Postby onetrickpony » Fri Oct 23, 2015 1:29 am

Yes, what Lammont said. Thank you for sharing Mama's final chapter.

I look forward to more Rosa updates.

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Re: Breakfast with Mama: The Final Chapter

Postby orono » Fri Oct 23, 2015 2:47 pm

That's a great pic of Rosa, I like how the rails of the X makes her look like a rocking horse. :)

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Re: Breakfast with Mama: The Final Chapter

Postby M&M » Sat Oct 24, 2015 12:59 am

LOL, yes they do!
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Re: Breakfast with Mama: The Final Chapter

Postby Figgy » Mon Oct 26, 2015 12:07 pm

I had a mare like Mama. Got a diagnosis from a lovely vet chiro with a kind soul, he showed me the pain scenarios - turned out my mare couldn't carry weight. No matter how light. Like your mama things would set her off and she wouldn't stop the explosion until things got hurt, her, humans, other horses. I had tried doing my mare over several times over the six years I had her. I learned a lot with her, because of her I discovered behavioural training and natural horse training. Because of her I found myself starting several aged breeding stallions under saddle and they were a lot easier to deal with than my girl.

My girl was a gifted bucker, she actually was a sweet soul, its just so many things in the world hurt her and she had to over react to that pain, uneven ground, saddles, weight on the back, backing up.

I put my girl in the ground after six years, huge anxiety leading up to the day, huge relief once it was done. Sometimes I still have nightmares that it wasn't done and she is still alive and I didn't care for her.

Imagine my heartbreak when the same vet said during a routine vet check of my juvenile delinquent before I was to send him off to be started - Lisa, I had to tell you this, but this baby has worse pain scenarios than the mare. While he was a cool horse in longreins, he couldn't pull weight, he couldn't carry weight without exploding, it hurt him a lot, in the end he went off his food and because of pain (injury related) he started losing weight and wouldn't gain it. Put him down as well.

Then when the OTTB kamikazied through some fences and went smack down onto cement from a gallop, I knew. I knew when he couldn't back up, when he had to buck to change from a walk to trot, buck to change from a trot to a canter. Two separate vets said - problem in the pelvis and it ain't good. People thought I'd pulled the plug too early, but they hadn't walked in my shoes.

I won't give the unsound and insane away. They hurt, they are in pain. I have no qualms about putting a seemingly sound animal down. Hell, the meat industries do it everyday, they put young healthy animals down and we eat them. So why should I risk a horse suffering from neglect or getting greater pain scenarios because I don't want to do the deed? Better a day or a year too early than a day too late.

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Re: Breakfast with Mama: The Final Chapter

Postby Chisamba » Mon Oct 26, 2015 1:59 pm

Figgy wrote:I had a mare like Mama. Got a diagnosis from a lovely vet chiro with a kind soul, he showed me the pain scenarios - turned out my mare couldn't carry weight. No matter how light. Like your mama things would set her off and she wouldn't stop the explosion until things got hurt, her, humans, other horses. I had tried doing my mare over several times over the six years I had her. I learned a lot with her, because of her I discovered behavioural training and natural horse training. Because of her I found myself starting several aged breeding stallions under saddle and they were a lot easier to deal with than my girl.

My girl was a gifted bucker, she actually was a sweet soul, its just so many things in the world hurt her and she had to over react to that pain, uneven ground, saddles, weight on the back, backing up.

I put my girl in the ground after six years, huge anxiety leading up to the day, huge relief once it was done. Sometimes I still have nightmares that it wasn't done and she is still alive and I didn't care for her.

Imagine my heartbreak when the same vet said during a routine vet check of my juvenile delinquent before I was to send him off to be started - Lisa, I had to tell you this, but this baby has worse pain scenarios than the mare. While he was a cool horse in longreins, he couldn't pull weight, he couldn't carry weight without exploding, it hurt him a lot, in the end he went off his food and because of pain (injury related) he started losing weight and wouldn't gain it. Put him down as well.

Then when the OTTB kamikazied through some fences and went smack down onto cement from a gallop, I knew. I knew when he couldn't back up, when he had to buck to change from a walk to trot, buck to change from a trot to a canter. Two separate vets said - problem in the pelvis and it ain't good. People thought I'd pulled the plug too early, but they hadn't walked in my shoes.

I won't give the unsound and insane away. They hurt, they are in pain. I have no qualms about putting a seemingly sound animal down. Hell, the meat industries do it everyday, they put young healthy animals down and we eat them. So why should I risk a horse suffering from neglect or getting greater pain scenarios because I don't want to do the deed? Better a day or a year too early than a day too late.


I just want to say I agree. i had two experiences, one where i stepped up to the plate and put the horse down, and the other where i found it a home, the first scenario was definitely the best. i will not place an unsound or unhappy/dangerous horse, if i cannot keep them safely, i would rather end their life myself, in a manner that is swift and kind.

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Re: Breakfast with Mama: The Final Chapter

Postby Kathy Johnson » Mon Oct 26, 2015 3:05 pm

I totally respect your experience, Figgy. It is a very personal decision. Thank you for sharing yours. I know how hard it is. We've had a couple of very old horses who could not hold weight, no matter how much they ate. And also a few who stopped eating. Usually the horse can't metabolize feed properly any more. At that point, I have euthanized as well. I can't really compare my horses to the meat industry, that goes too far for me. I've never believed in sending them to meat auctions. They were very common when I was growing up and the usual way to dispose of any unwanted horse. I don't know if closing the slaughter houses in the US did very much to change the unwanted horse problem in either direction. Hopefully more people euthanize, because I also feel that is much kinder.

Same, Chisamba. I respect your experiences. I am surprised you've only had two of these situations in your lifetime of horses. We don't run into true rogues very often. These are the horses who don't want to be ridden, no matter the reason. I think we see a lot more of these horses in the rescue business.

I met one when I was 15, daughter of Naborr, a beautiful Arabian. I was asked to train and show her, but my father said I could not ride her again unless I started her over from the beginning. No thanks. Her default was to rear and fall over. My dad showed up after day one to pick me and she had reared and fallen 6 times, and when my dad got there, she was lying on her side and I was sitting on her head to keep her down with a bloody nose, something I had read in a book.

Another mare, Stormy, belonged to a client. She was a healthy mare with excellent ground manners. We were able to donate her to the breeding program at CSU, where she served as a surrogate mother. They LOVED her, said she was their best. She was good on the ground. Unfortunately they now lease their surrogate mares from big farms and don't accept donations.

Another 5 year old colt had great ground manners but bucked like a banshee. My friend who took him said he never would ride him or have anyone try to ride him. They get along great. He lives out his live in leisure at the farm in Washington and provides company for the older gentleman. I keep track of him and trust my friend and his wife to euthanize him if anything happens that they need to. He's had seven years of a very nice life serving as a therapy horse for my friend with PTSD.

I worked with a couple of horses eventually diagnosed with neurological issues, one with kissing pines, another with stenosis in the neck. The belonged to clients and I recommended and supported their decision to euthanize. I do not like neurological issues very much. They are degenerative and despite recent claims by some French masters that you can fix them with dressage physical therapy, you can't permanently fix something that is degenerative. It will rear its ugly head again.

Then Mama.

Right now, I can't talk about the number of old, dying and permanently injured horses I've had to euthanize. Too many rescues.

It is very, very hard to make these decisions. It is sometimes possible to find the right situation for the rogue horses, but it can be exhausting and impossible. Then I go back to these two policies.

• Undue financial burden of caring for a sick or incapacitated horse
• Undue suffering for any reason

I think the suffering can apply to the owner and family too.

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Re: Breakfast with Mama: The Final Chapter

Postby Mao2 » Mon Oct 26, 2015 3:47 pm

Fwiw, I think you made the right decision for Mama. Mustangs have plenty of self-preservation skills. I bet she'll do just fine as a benignly neglected, semi-feral pasture pet.

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Re: Breakfast with Mama: The Final Chapter

Postby bascar » Mon Oct 26, 2015 11:05 pm

I've only met one true rogue, but I was young and immortal, so I was lucky.

All we can ask of ourselves is that we do the best we can. And you do.

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Re: Breakfast with Mama: The Final Chapter

Postby M&M » Tue Oct 27, 2015 1:46 am

bascar wrote:
All we can ask of ourselves is that we do the best we can. And you do.


Well said, Bascar.
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Re: Breakfast with Mama: The Final Chapter

Postby Pippigirl » Tue Oct 27, 2015 6:30 am

Mao2 wrote:Fwiw, I think you made the right decision for Mama. Mustangs have plenty of self-preservation skills. I bet she'll do just fine as a benignly neglected, semi-feral pasture pet.


Agreed!

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Re: Breakfast with Mama: The Final Chapter

Postby Josette » Tue Oct 27, 2015 12:24 pm

Ditto!!

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Re: Breakfast with Mama: The Final Chapter

Postby khall » Tue Oct 27, 2015 8:07 pm

I think we can only do the best we can do with the choices we have. Sometime euthanasia is the correct choice, sometimes rehoming is (I have done both over the years for different reasons). If we can rehome with the as much certainty as we can, then yes rehome (I did twice because of difficult horses, one I would have kept forever except she got aggressive in the pasture with the other horses, rehomed and they love her) the other was very young (4) and she went to a pro home best option and I knew the pro pretty well, his type of horse EXTREMELY challenging, she was born that way. Sounds like Mama got the best option for her, glad you were able to come to peace with this KJ.

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Chisamba
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Re: Breakfast with Mama: The Final Chapter

Postby Chisamba » Wed Oct 28, 2015 2:31 pm

Without any criticism for others making decisions, i do want to explain why I feel the way I do, and will act the way I act, if i am ever faced with a similar decision again.

There are a number of routine things you have to do for your horses. they are not wild horses, so it is not okay to put them in a field with sufficiet food and water, and never touch them again. some of the issues are simply maintenance. Is a horse safe for the farrier, for the dentist, for the vet, for all of these routine things? If the horse sustains a non life threatening injury that needs stitching? like a cut on her leg, can they treat it or does it run around the field until it heals on its own? Or will it endanger the life of the vet called in to treat? what about teeth, or when the teeth get sharp and jagged does the horse just get to lose weight and get raw gums because it is dangerous to handle? Is the person you have homed her with fully able to deal with any of these situations if they arise, or, if not, prepared to pull the trigger when you were unwilling to. When i sat down and faced all of these questions, and was honestly with myself able to say that any of them could and would put some one else at risk, then it made the choices i faced limited.

if the horse is genuinely feral, and running on range, then it is understandable to leave the animal to live or die in absence of routine maintenance. If the horse is owned, and even semi domesticated, it is not. there is the quandry.

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Re: Breakfast with Mama: The Final Chapter

Postby Kathy Johnson » Fri Oct 30, 2015 1:23 pm

Is a horse safe for the farrier, for the dentist, for the vet, for all of these routine things? If the horse sustains a non life threatening injury that needs stitching? like a cut on her leg, can they treat it or does it run around the field until it heals on its own? Or will it endanger the life of the vet called in to treat? what about teeth, or when the teeth get sharp and jagged does the horse just get to lose weight and get raw gums because it is dangerous to handle?


Yes, I spent three years trying to make Mama safe in domesticity and I failed. I had never really planned on having her be a riding horse. I felt it was my duty, once she had been pulled off the range, to make her safe among humans by training her to do all these things and I could not. She was safer on the range. Had she been an older horse or in pain in any way, or I could not find a suitable home, which took a year, I would have euthanized her.

If I was dealing with a domestic horse, I would have sought a very different home, or euthanized. But I think if she had been domesticated, there would not have been the same issues. That is indeed the quandry.

When faced with euthanizing a horse, for me it's either clear cut or I face a big existential crisis. The clear cut cases are not easy, but they are clear. The ones where I am not sure whether someone else can give the horse a better life than I can, those are the hardest.


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