I need help with a sale ad - UPDATE!

[KathyK]

My mare, purchased in August, and I are not "clicking" for many reasons. I'm going to sell her, and could use some help writing a sale ad for her. I feel too close emotionally to the situation to write a decent ad. Obviously, I want to highlight the good, and downplay the not-so-good. I have included all the "cons," but I don't know what, if any, has to go in an ad. I just don't wan't to give the impression that she is a sweet, pet-like horse, because she isn't. Any help will be greatly appreciated.

She's an eight year-old Dutch Warmblood, sticked at 16.3.

Pros:
Beautiful (really)
Well bred, by Jive Magic (son of Jazz) out of a Wolkenstein II mare
No soundness issues
Beautiful movement
Big gaits with a canter like riding on a cloud
Mostly all business under saddle
Schooling PSG, has done threes
Successful show record at 3rd level, scores ranging from 74.231 to 59.615 (with student rider)
Smart, and learns quickly
Recent comprehensive vetting
Good feet, barefoot behind
No rear, no bolt
Not hot
Polite with good ground manners

Cons:
Mareish with difficult cycles, but greatly helped with Regumate
Can be pushy
Not very friendly
Does not like other horses near her (solo turnout, no "squeezing by" in the aisle
Unregistered (seller promised to register, but has yet to do so)
Some spook in the new, scary indoor arena, but improving

Just info:
Had colic surgery (no resection) in June 2017. After providing my insurance carrier with the report from the vet clinic where the surgery was performed, I have no colic exclusion in my policy.

UPDATE
So, without firing a shot, so to speak, the horse is sold. My trainer is buying her! Trainer has always loved riding the mare, and last week told me she wanted to buy her. So, the angst over the ad was unnecessary. For me, the best part is that I don’t have to worry about where Judy will wind up. I know she will be in a safe, structured environment with great care. Trainer has been working patiently to desensitize Judy to the scary arena, and the progress has great. She is very excited about the future with Judy.

I may need one more bit of advice. I think trainer is going to ask for the documents from the PPE. She wrote in an email, “Once you receive the funds let me know and I’ll have a bill of sale to sign and will need any paperwork you have on her please.” I don’t know what other paperwork there would be. I paid $1468 for that PPE! Do I have any obligation to give the PPE documents to her?

[blob]

I think it's important to play up the fact that she is sound, has a good work ethic, learns quickly, and has great gaits. As well as highlighting her show record, though I wouldn't share the range and instead say 'scores up to 74.2% at 3rd level. If someone wants to look up or ask about the range, they can.

You say she has good work ethic and good manners but is mareish with a difficult cycle--when she is being mareish, where does that show up? That would change how I share this information.

From your cons, I don't think you need to share that she's not friendly or that she's pushy. But I would share that she had colic surgery and I would say she's on regumate (though depending on my question above the language around that would change).


So, for example:

8 year-old Dutch Warmblood by Jive Magic (son of Jazz) out of a Wolkenstein II mare (currently unregistered, but I have breeders information). 16.3hh schooling PSG. **name** has beautiful, big gaits, with an especially impressive and comfortable canter. She has a great work ethic and learns quickly. She has no rear, buck, or bolt, but can be a bit spooky at times, so goes best with a confident rider. She is sound with great feet and has recent vetting and xrays. She is currently on Regumate and had colic surgery in June 2017, but has been healthy since. **name** has lots of show experience with a variety of riders and has scores at third level up to 74.2%. She's already schooling threes and shows lots of talent for the upper levels. She would be a great match for an ambitious rider looking to get their bronze and/or gain experience training a horse through the upper levels. She loves to learn and truly stands out in the show ring.

[piedmontfields]

I'm so sorry you two are not clicking. As you know, it really can take time, and especially so with some horse characters. Often very good show horses have rather challenging characters.

Your description is extremely fair, but not what one would put in an ad. Blob gave lots of good ideas. You might also describe the kind of rider/person the mare needs (is it ambitious? experienced? calm? confident? unphased by an assertive mare? etc.) Will your trainer be handling the sale or you?

[PaulaO]

No advice on the ad, but I’m sorry you and she aren’t clicking. Is this Judy?

[Ryeissa]

This is sort of like dating, no its exactly like dating....tell people enough to weed out the non-serious but I would say as little as possible and let the test ride be the time to cover more depth. Things can be so misunderstood in written words.

Marish can be different things to different people. I would avoid those descriptors. I prefer to make up my own mind sometimes, the owner can (sometime) have a different relationship with the horse than I would have as a rider, or their forward is not my forward. I like the focus on facts: size, age, breeding, scores, and a general description.

I would focus on professional quality and numerous photos and excellent videos. those are what people look at anyways...!

Sorry it's not working out- she really is beautiful!

[musical comedy]

Eight year-old Dutch Warmblood mare 16.3h.
By Jive Magic (son of Jazz) out of a Wolkenstein II mare
No soundness issues with recent comprehensive vetting
Schooling PSG with 3 tempis
Successful show record at 3rd level, scores as high as 74.231
Good feet, barefoot behind
No rear, no bolt
Well behaved, but not a pet
Ideal rider would be an ambitious AA or Pro.

A good video is worth a thousand words. Make it brief, but show what she can do.
Not sure if I would put in the colic surgery. Probably 'should', but not sure I would.
In the past, I have seen the 'not a pet' written in ads. I know what it means and so do most savvy shoppers.

[Imperini]

Sorry that you've not clicked with her. I like musical comedy's suggestion as far as ad content and as both she and Ryeissa mentioned good photos and video are probably more important than the words. I think since whoever purchases will need to know about the past colic surgery anyway it wouldn't be such a bad thing to include somewhere in the ad so that people who would immediately discount her as a possibility won't waste your time or theirs inquiring.

[KathyK]

No advice on the ad, but I’m sorry you and she aren’t clicking. Is this Judy?

Yes, unfortunately. Better to decide now than later, though.

[Ponichiwa]

Agreed with the above-- would also consider leading with "No vices" instead of "No rear, no buck", but ultimately up to you.

I prefer a more matter-of-fact approach to horse descriptions vs. flowery language. Good video and good pictures go a long way.

[KathyK]

Thank you all for great suggestions. Keep them coming! I do have video and will definitely say so in an ad.

[Xanthoria]

It took me a year to bond with the Decrepit OTTB... and he was never lovey-dovey to the end! I only learned that he really trusted me during one horrific event where he got stuck in a ditch.

I don't want to sway your decision, as it sounds made, but as I am currently going through horse shopping your mare sounds wonderful and the marishness/barginess and lack of bond seems like a small thing compared to her great attributes! And it could potentially be improved with some round pen work perhaps? Once a mare is on your side, they are incredible.

For an ad I would steer away from anything relating to bond/personality etc. Perhaps tell the seller after they have tried her that you two aren't a match. No need to color the seller who may form a wonderful bond w her, and should be able to see/decide on any behavioral things in person when they view her.

Best of luck whatever happens!

[Hayburner]

Sorry you two aren't clicking - she's a beautiful mare.
My mare is my first mare and I have to say it did take a fairly long time for her to really warm up to me and to trust me. It also took moving her to a barn that is quieter and with more turnout. She now wants to cuddle up and be loved on all the time. I can't leave her stall without her following me to the stall door.

As for the marish attitude - depending on what she does - I'd probably just mention what she does and that Regumate has helped. I'd probably leave out the colic surgery - but, would let a serious buyer now the facts.

[WheresMyWhite]

Sorry you aren't clicking.

Yes, blob had good suggestions

Pros:
Beautiful (really)
Well bred, by Jive Magic (son of Jazz) out of a Wolkenstein II mare
No soundness issues
Beautiful movement
Big gaits with a canter like riding on a cloud
Mostly all business under saddle
Schooling PSG, has done threes
Successful show record at 3rd level, scores ranging from 74.231 to 59.615 (with student rider)
Smart, and learns quickly
Recent comprehensive vetting
Good feet, barefoot behind
No rear, no bolt
Not hot
Polite with good ground manners

Cons:
Mareish with difficult cycles, but greatly helped with Regumate
Can be pushy
Not very friendly
Does not like other horses near her (solo turnout, no "squeezing by" in the aisle
Unregistered (seller promised to register, but has yet to do so)
Some spook in the new, scary indoor arena, but improving

Just info:
Had colic surgery (no resection) in June 2017. After providing my insurance carrier with the report from the vet clinic where the surgery was performed, I have no colic exclusion in my policy.

The stuff I bolded (as I couldn't find an overstrike) I would put in the ad. The rest maybe not as many are your "opinion" rather than "fact".

You want to be honest and up front but you also don't want a prospective buyer to either read your description and think she's a horse they don't want to mess with or that she's a dream when, for them, she may or may not be what you said.

I would mention the colic surgery. That may stop some buyers cold but I'd also be more than pissed if I bought a horse and then found out they'd had colic surgery.

Don't forget *good* photos and video. Show her conformation, show her big gaits, do something that shows a pleasant temperament

If asked during the seller conversations, don't lie. During the initial (ie, the ad) contact IMO you want a prospective buyer to make contact and talk to you. You can then get a read if your mare is a good fit for the buyer.

[KathyK]

I understand that some people have great mares and it took a lot of time to get to a good place with them. However, I'm 70.5 years old and realistically have a limited number of riding years left, so I'm not willing to take the chance that in a year or two this horse and I will be a good match. So please, while I appreciate the good intentions, let's just accept that I'm not happy and want to sell this horse.

[Bip]

This is sort of like dating, no its exactly like dating

So Kathy should use a pic from 10 years ago?

[KathyK]

Sorry you aren't clicking.

Thanks, it's been very sad for me.

I would mention the colic surgery. That may stop some buyers cold but I'd also be more than pissed if I bought a horse and then found out they'd had colic surgery.

I agree 100% and would never sell her without telling a prospective buyer about it. Fortunately, the records from the very well-known surgical clinic give her a clean bill of health.

[KathyK]

This is sort of like dating, no its exactly like dating

So Kathy should use a pic from 10 years ago?

Going by my past experience, it's more like 15.

[blob]

Thank you all for great suggestions. Keep them coming! I do have video and will definitely say so in an ad.

I would include the video in the ad if you can. I know a lot of people prefer not to do this. But it's usually the video that makes someone like a horse and the right person may not even ask for the video, but would contact you if they see it. I also know people who have been 'casually' looking so they won't ask for a video necessarily, but if they see a video that shows promise they have gone through with sales. When I was shopping recently, I also found myself getting tired of asking for videos and often just passed ads that didn't have pictures and video included.

[KathyK]

Great suggestion, blob. Thanks.

[Ryeissa]

This is sort of like dating, no its exactly like dating

So Kathy should use a pic from 10 years ago?

Going by my past experience, it's more like 15.

hahahhhah....yeah!

[musical comedy]

I would mention the colic surgery. That may stop some buyers cold but I'd also be more than pissed if I bought a horse and then found out they'd had colic surgery.

I meant not to mention it in the ad, but certainly tell a prospective client if they call with interest. I do think that colic surgery (resection or not) would turn many people off. It would me, as I have written about recently. Often times an ad will sound great, and then you call and find out the deal breaker stuff that wasn't in the ad. That's frustrating, but many people do it. The thinking probably is that once someone is interested enough to call, they may decide to overlook something bad that maybe would have prevented them from calling.

Often times I see an ad for a nice horse priced low because it has an issue. Seller usually says something like "price is greatly reduced due to horse having "x".

I do want to say, Kathy, that I commend you on making a decision that a horse isn't a good fit. Darn how I wish I had done that in the past a few times. So many of us just don't want to admit it and keep trying to make it work.

[KathyK]

Thanks, mc. It was a tough decision.

[Josette]

Any chance her previous seller could help you re-home her?

[KathyK]

Unlikely.

[LeoApp]

I am so sorry to hear of your tough decision but good for you. Best of luck selling her!! I often ride my friend's palomino gelding. He is the most aloof horse I have ever encountered. I think I have been riding him 6 years now. Two years ago something finally clicked and now he is a lot more affectionate and tuned in to me. But he isn't my horse so I didn't care all that much, and he is a good ride. If he were mine I am not sure I would have kept him.

[piedmontfields]

I agree with the point that it is best to sell earlier than later when you know it is not the right match.

KathyK, I have seen ads that indicate "pricing reflects past history; details available to phone inquiries" or some such (as a way to reference the past colic). Providing details initially by phone gets people out of recreational shopping/social media blasting mode.

I also agree with the point that providing a good video up front indicates that this is a serious sale of a very nice horse. Good luck!

[blob]

I haven't seen video of your mare, but based on what you've shared I feel confident you will find a good home for her. Depending on where someone is in their dressage journey/what their goals are a horse that isn't especially friendly doesn't matter at all as long as that horse works well (which it sounds like she does).

I can imagine someone who is newer on the professional scene really wanting a horse that learns quickly and is a nice mover to be able to move up the levels while they make a name for themselves. And in that case the 'fun' will come not so much from the bonding and more from the rideability. She could also potentially work well for a trainer who constantly has students who need a horse to lease and show. My old trainer always had ambitious and talented teens who needed horses to lease either to do jr/yrs or just to work towards their bronze. A more aloof horse might be perfect for a situation where she has different rider every couple years or so.

All the above really just to say that I think some of the things that worry you most won't be negatives to a lot of people/situations.

[Tarlo Farm]

Great insight Blob!

[KathyK]

Bump for update!

[heddylamar]

If you really need to keep a copy of the PPE, I'd keep an electronic version and hand off the original.

[KathyK]

So if you bought a horse, you would expect the seller to give you the PPE from when they bought the horse?

[PaulaO]

Congratulations on the easy sale. You’ll be able to keep track of Judy’s progress. Re: paperwork. Legally you have no obligation to turn over the PPE. I would give the trainer the paperwork, but build a clause into the bill of sale words to the effect of the PPE you did is no guarantee of future health/soundness.

[khall]

Wow that is pretty presumptuous of your trainer to ask for the PPE results that you paid for. Now if she offered $ for them to help reimburse you for your output, sure. But just to assume because she is purchasing the mare with fairly recent PPE that she is entitled to them is IMO beyond the pale. I hope this is not a sticking point in the sale and I guess you have to look at it if you want to mess the sale up by refusing to make the PPE results available. Aack, sticky situation. Can you talk to your trainer openly about this?

[heddylamar]

Since she's your trainer, I think the lines are blurred. In my case, I'd hand it over and agree with Paula's addendum.

[KathyK]

Well, it hasn't happened yet, and she didn't specify what "paperwork," so I might be getting myself worked up over nothing. I wanted to get a feel, however, for the way these things usually go. I haven't sold a horse in more than 30 years so I'm an idiot when it comes to sale protocol.

Can I talk to her? I don't know. She needs to control everything, and doesn't have much respect for what other people think. When I read about her providing the bill of sale, I wrote back that as the seller, I would draw up the bill of sale. Her reply was, "I have a standard bill of sale we can use." That's not a big deal in itself, but I think it demonstrates a lack of respect.

[Hayburner]

Obligated? I don't think so. But, imho you are unloading a horse you don't click with, she's going to a good home, and you really have no use for the PPE documents. I would just give them to her, they were really only good for the day they were taken.

[KathyK]

You're right -- the more I think about it, why would she even want the PPE info? It's pretty much meaningless now. I wonder whether she has other paperwork in mind. I have the report from New Bolton re: the colic surgery. She's welcome to that.

[blob]

When i hear paperwork, I assume any coggins, registration papers/breeding info, usef/usd registrations, etc.

My guess is she means anything like that you have. I'd give her that kind of stuff unless she mentions anything else by name.

Glad she's found a good home!

[WheresMyWhite]

Given how much you paid for the PPE I am assuming a fair amount of pro-active diagnostics were done (assuming x-rays). PPEs are supposed to give a prospective buyer an opinion from the examining vet on the horse's suitability to perform a specific job on the day in question.

Yes, provide all the colic information you have.

If your trainer wants the PPE you paid for when you bought the mare, I'd ask exactly what she's looking for? Maybe just an "inexpensive" (for the trainer) way to get a set of recent baseline x-rays in the event there is a future problem. If I did provide your PPE, I would absolutely make sure that your bill of sale does include verbiage about future suitability/soundness/etc. Maybe just offer to provide any x-rays taken but not the vet's opinion on findings or suitability?

Sounds like the trainer is just used to getting what she wants...

Glad you sold the mare so easily as well as, at least for the time being, keeping an eye on her.

[musical comedy]

Congratulations on the quick sale! Are you going to buy again, or did this ordeal give you cold feet?

[Josette]

Yes - Congratulations on this quick sale. I totally agree with Hayburner's comments. I would be thankful for the quick sale and try to make the transaction happen with minimal fuss over papers.

[KathyK]

Congratulations on the quick sale! Are you going to buy again, or did this ordeal give you cold feet?

LOL, no cold feet, but I'll probably wait until spring. And I'll listen to my gut. My gut told me not to buy this mare, but I listened to my trainer, who I believe had every reason to think it would be a good purchase. I actually rode the horse very well. The main problems were behavioral.

Twice under saddle she stopped, backed up, and tried to kick another horse in the ring. I was completely unprepared for that the first time, and we came perilously close the other horse. The second time, I was able to nip it in the bud pretty quickly. Trainer knows about it, and the mare tried it a few times while trainer was riding, too.

I want a horse I can have fun with. I want to feel comfortable taking a horse into the warmup arena at a show. I like trail riding with friends. My horse doesn't have to adore me, but I want one that doesn't makes threatening gestures if I'm standing in her stall -- after giving her a bunch of carrots in her feed tub. In other words, no more chestnut mares! I know, I know, there are many lovely chestnut mares, but right now, a nice bay gelding sounds pretty good.

Oh, and I won't be staying with this trainer. I had been on the fence about it until right after we shook hands on the deal she showed me a video of another one she thought I should look at. The horse looked pretty small, so I said so. Trainer said it was 14.2hh. I said I didn't want a pony. I said it FIVE TIMES before she stopped pushing me to go look at something I don't want. That was the final straw (after a 15-year relationship ).

[Josette]

LOL! IF you can forward me the video of the pony your trainer mentioned. I'm always curious since I have a knack for liking the ones the furthest away from NJ! I recently retired and who knows what I may do with some extra time.

[KathyK]

I think I know who owns the pony and I sent her an email. I'll let you know if anything comes of it. It's showing nicely at 2nd level.

[piedmontfields]

I would assume that the trainer-buyer wants the PPEs so that they can turn around and sell the horse "with recent PPE and x-rays" to another buyer. Call me...cynical.

Your call, KathyK, on whether you think the price you and the trainer agreed upon includes any of this paperwork. It is not typical to include high dollar records unless it is explicitly part of the deal. This is different from passing on vet records about a past incident or concern.

[Ponichiwa]

I wouldn't have even thought of that, Piedmontfields. Pollyanna over here, thinking quietly to myself that PPE results are essentially worth nothing to me once I've had the horse for a while, and certainly worth $0 if I sell the horse, so I wouldn't be especially put off by a request to see them.

That said, it really is all about the request. Given that the trainer isn't giving KathyK the best vibes anyway, it's also perfectly OK (and industry standard) to not pass on the PPE gratis.

[KathyK]

LOL! IF you can forward me the video of the pony your trainer mentioned. I'm always curious since I have a knack for liking the ones the furthest away from NJ! I recently retired and who knows what I may do with some extra time.

It's not the pony I thought it might be. I'll ask my trainer when I see her.

[PaulaO]

Bay geldings are nice.

[piedmontfields]

I wouldn't have even thought of that, Piedmontfields. Pollyanna over here, thinking quietly to myself that PPE results are essentially worth nothing to me once I've had the horse for a while, and certainly worth $0 if I sell the horse, so I wouldn't be especially put off by a request to see them.

I've seen this behavior repeatedly by trainer-buyers.

Selling directly to an amateur/long-term owner I would think more like you do Ponichiwa-Pollyanna

[KathyK]

Trainer seems genuinely excited to have the horse. Shortly after I decided to sell her, Jan Ebeling came to our barn for a clinic, as he's been doing twice a year for a long time. Trainer rode the mare for him to see whether he might know of a buyer, and he encouraged her to buy the horse for herself. What I didn't know until last week is that trainer had been looking for a horse for herself, and had gone as far as doing PPE on one, but it didn't pass the PPE. I'm not saying it wouldn't happen, but I don't think the plan is to turn around and sell the mare.