Bob MacDonald SafeSport Ban

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Bob MacDonald SafeSport Ban

Postby Tarlo Farm » Fri Jun 12, 2020 2:54 am

Lifetime ban for sex with a minor. If this is true, I hope Debbie divorces him.

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Re: Bob MacDonald SafeSport Ban

Postby Ryeissa » Fri Jun 12, 2020 5:18 pm

Tarlo Farm wrote:Lifetime ban for sex with a minor. If this is true, I hope Debbie divorces him.


From what others are saying it's multiple offenses in many states. He apparently does hunters.

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Re: Bob MacDonald SafeSport Ban

Postby Tarlo Farm » Fri Jun 12, 2020 5:56 pm

Yes, he's in the hunter/jumper world. Also a hockey coach. No word from which arena (no pun...) this originates. Poor Debbie.

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Re: Bob MacDonald SafeSport Ban

Postby khall » Sat Jun 13, 2020 7:32 pm

I hope he faces criminal charges.

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Re: Bob MacDonald SafeSport Ban

Postby Tanga » Sat Jun 13, 2020 10:51 pm

He responds. I don't know how to respond to this. SO much like GM.

https://www.psdressage.com/bob-mcdonald ... safesport/

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Re: Bob MacDonald SafeSport Ban

Postby Hayburner » Sun Jun 14, 2020 1:36 am

If the allegation is from 47 years ago that is insane!

Others will probably not agree with me, but my opinion is if you stayed silent this long, let it go and move on.

I do not know what the exact allegations were brought against him, but 47 years ago things were different than today.

If you were so damaged by this why did you not speak up sooner? What part if any did the OP play in what occurred?

As for Debbie, I Feel very sorry for what she is now going thru. The embarrassment and humiliation must be breaking her heart.

I am not a public figure but I was destroyed and scarred emotionally by my stbx at our workplace. I was the last to know what was going on day after day. After I found out, They even had the audacity to flaunt their behavior in my face and belittle me.

I would not want to be in Debbie's shoes right now.

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Re: Bob MacDonald SafeSport Ban

Postby Tanga » Sun Jun 14, 2020 5:25 am

I hate responding to this at all, but it was more than one allegation. Again, SafeSport does pretty thorough investigations and it never rules based on one thing. I guess GM was two years, so I would imagine this was similar.

I get things have changed over time. I also get why people didn't speak up, because it was not OK to do so because things happened. I think with all of this coming out with other trainers, people are speaking now. There are many things I would never say to anyone unless it was to corroborate others.

stbx, Hayburner?

I can imagine it's all very hard for Debbie. Think about Roy Moore's wife (the creep in politics in Alabama who went after teenagers) who he met when she was 15. I guess sport has a higher standard than political leaders.

Without specifics to anyone, I think we need to go through this and grow and learn. It's going to be really hard on those who behaved in a certain way before things became known to everyone and unacceptable.

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Re: Bob MacDonald SafeSport Ban

Postby Hayburner » Sun Jun 14, 2020 12:38 pm

Tanga. Stbx =. Soon to be ex (spouse).

Tho we have been in that status for a good 8 years :roll:

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Re: Bob MacDonald SafeSport Ban

Postby Ponichiwa » Mon Jun 15, 2020 1:00 pm

The only party presenting the timeline of events as "one time 47 years ago" is the accused. Same move as Rob Gage and George Morris, actually. And then lo and behold it's not just one time 47 yrs ago, it's actually a pattern of predatory behavior.

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Re: Bob MacDonald SafeSport Ban

Postby Snork » Mon Jun 15, 2020 10:56 pm

SafeSport would not not issue a lifetime ban for a 47 year old one-time event any more than Santa can ban the Tooth Fairy.

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Re: Bob MacDonald SafeSport Ban

Postby LeoApp » Tue Jun 16, 2020 2:07 pm

Ponichiwa wrote:The only party presenting the timeline of events as "one time 47 years ago" is the accused. Same move as Rob Gage and George Morris, actually. And then lo and behold it's not just one time 47 yrs ago, it's actually a pattern of predatory behavior.


Yes absolutely! These people are predators and they aren't one-time offenders. Especially if they get away with it once. They will do it over and over again until (hopefully) at some point the jig is up.

All I can say is ewww. Disgusting pig.

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Re: Bob MacDonald SafeSport Ban

Postby Tanga » Wed Jun 17, 2020 4:15 am


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Re: Bob MacDonald SafeSport Ban

Postby Sue B » Wed Jun 17, 2020 4:08 pm

I am biting my tongue so hard, I think it may fall off :lol: :lol: :lol:

Suffice it to say, this has been a long time coming and it is of no surprise that Debbie stands with him.

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Re: Bob MacDonald SafeSport Ban

Postby Hayburner » Thu Jun 18, 2020 1:53 am

In the Dressage News article it does make it sound like there is one person and one allegation.

I think he is doing the right thing by requesting an Independent Arbitrator especially if he is 100% innocent.

If I was accused of something I didn't do, I would stand my ground too.

I'm staying neutral on this until we hear more facts.

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Re: Bob MacDonald SafeSport Ban

Postby Chisamba » Thu Jun 18, 2020 10:31 am

Safe sport does not hand down a life time suspension without having conducted full investigation . The accused also knows that Safe Sport remains silent. So I do not believe the one incident decades ago lie. It's funny how its the same lie. Only the name and number of years changes.

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Re: Bob MacDonald SafeSport Ban

Postby Ponichiwa » Thu Jun 18, 2020 12:02 pm

Hayburner wrote:In the Dressage News article it does make it sound like there is one person and one allegation.

I think he is doing the right thing by requesting an Independent Arbitrator especially if he is 100% innocent.

If I was accused of something I didn't do, I would stand my ground too.

I'm staying neutral on this until we hear more facts.


The Dressage News article leans heavily on McDonald's text release of his innocence, which again is the source that mentions the single incident 40+ yrs ago.

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Re: Bob MacDonald SafeSport Ban

Postby Chisamba » Fri Jun 19, 2020 4:25 am

Perhaps not everyone know the story of Debbie at age 14 seeing a stranger beat her pony, ran for help into the arms of Bob Macdonald. That story always creeped me out.

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Re: Bob MacDonald SafeSport Ban

Postby Sue B » Fri Jun 19, 2020 4:09 pm

Yeah, there's a whole lot to be creeped out about with that whole deal.

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Re: Bob MacDonald SafeSport Ban

Postby Tarlo Farm » Fri Jun 19, 2020 5:18 pm

Ick.

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Re: Bob MacDonald SafeSport Ban

Postby Chisamba » Mon Jun 22, 2020 12:38 am

I see all the robert dover etc are all calling for safe sport overhaul and implying support for Bob Macdonald

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Re: Bob MacDonald SafeSport Ban

Postby blob » Mon Jun 22, 2020 2:44 am

Chisamba wrote:I see all the robert dover etc are all calling for safe sport overhaul and implying support for Bob Macdonald


Yes, I came here to see if there had been discussion of Dover's letter. It can be found here : https://www.psdressage.com/former-u-s-d ... -overhaul/

I'm not sure what to think, to be honest. I agree there are probably improvements to be made to the system. However, I do get the sense that many trainers think this is some kind of witch hunt, when really it doesn't seem that way to me. None of the high profile cases have involved things that were borderline or isolated instances

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Re: Bob MacDonald SafeSport Ban

Postby Chisamba » Mon Jun 22, 2020 10:44 am

Well first off it shows lack of intelligence. The USEF actually has nothing to do with Safe Sport which is federally supported and over all Olympic competition.

So why is Dover writing to USEF? Because he wants USEF to stand with pedophiles? He doesn't understand why USEF isn't fighting for their athletes? I guess he wants the same ol same ol cover up and abuse. Its nauseating

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Re: Bob MacDonald SafeSport Ban

Postby Ryeissa » Mon Jun 22, 2020 12:35 pm

Chisamba wrote: I guess he wants the same ol same ol cover up and abuse. Its nauseating


I wouldn't assume that, if he thinks Bob is innocent that suggests he doesn't support a cover up. I have no idea what he knows/doesn't know about Bob or the alleged abuse. There is so much misunderstanding about SS that it's best to hold off on these sorts of projections.

The one concern I have with SS is there is no open trial, so we have no idea about the victims, evidence, etc. Not saying that we must, but it is hard to trust what we can't see. That is where it leaves the door open for these kinds of statements.

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Re: Bob MacDonald SafeSport Ban

Postby Ponichiwa » Mon Jun 22, 2020 6:37 pm

Predators like this know how to cover their tracks. That's why they're able to have multi-decade sexual abuse careers. So on the one hand, it's not surprising that their friends/family don't see the signs-- they're purposefully hidden! But we do a disservice to the survivors by asserting that because we didn't see them, it must not be true.

I imagine Dover is friends with the McDonalds (as he was/is with George Morris) and feels compelled to defend his friends. He really should recognize that he's too personally close to the cases and should not be commenting in any sort of official capacity, though. Glad he's no longer the technical advisor/chef d'equip of the Team.

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Re: Bob MacDonald SafeSport Ban

Postby Ryeissa » Mon Jun 22, 2020 7:19 pm

Ponichiwa wrote:Predators like this know how to cover their tracks. That's why they're able to have multi-decade sexual abuse careers. So on the one hand, it's not surprising that their friends/family don't see the signs-- they're purposefully hidden! But we do a disservice to the survivors by asserting that because we didn't see them, it must not be true.

I imagine Dover is friends with the McDonalds (as he was/is with George Morris) and feels compelled to defend his friends. He really should recognize that he's too personally close to the cases and should not be commenting in any sort of official capacity, though. Glad he's no longer the technical advisor/chef d'equip of the Team.


Yeah, I strongly support SS as a concept and I am not doubting they would not ban with out cause. However, there is a bit of a black hole about the victims and evidence. I think it's meant to protect the survivors, but that leaves the door open to suspicion.

I liked when Epstein and R Kelly's victims stood up and said NO MORE. It was powerful to hear. Not saying everyone must do this but its hard to deny! They are true heroes to me.

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Re: Bob MacDonald SafeSport Ban

Postby Ponichiwa » Mon Jun 22, 2020 7:25 pm

Rob Gage and George Morris' victims have stood up and said NO MORE in very public forums. They were numerous, and it's heartbreaking that they saw the need to make their stories known. That's the lifetime-SS-ban precedent: multiple decades of abuse.

I don't need to know anything more about McDonald's personal situation. These are not arbitrary bans.

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Re: Bob MacDonald SafeSport Ban

Postby Chisamba » Mon Jun 22, 2020 8:50 pm

Dover is just proving why we need safe sport and why it needs to be completely separate from the influence of the national governing sport organizations

It the " not my friend "
Or the " I never saw it do it didn't happen" and the power balance that the victims have to overcome.

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Re: Bob MacDonald SafeSport Ban

Postby heddylamar » Tue Jun 23, 2020 3:44 am

I see no reason for the victims to out themselves, or to be outted. They've suffered enough.

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Re: Bob MacDonald SafeSport Ban

Postby blob » Tue Jun 23, 2020 12:26 pm

Definitely agree that it's important there is an objective/separate party involved to avoid the 'I know them and they would NEVER' mentality that is so prone to happening.

I also don't think victims should have to out themselves. I agree it has been powerful when they have. I think a lot of the Robert Gage defenders stopped being so vocal when Anne Kursinski told her story. But she shouldn't have to.

I think the most common complaint I've heard against SS is the lack of transparency. And while they do need to protect the victims. I wonder if having more informatin about what their investigation process entails (generally speaking, not in a case by case basis), would help.

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Re: Bob MacDonald SafeSport Ban

Postby Ryeissa » Tue Jun 23, 2020 4:05 pm

heddylamar wrote:I see no reason for the victims to out themselves, or to be outted. They've suffered enough.


Let me clarify, I didn't say they MUST out themselves. However, the fact there are not "faces to the crimes" does impact the general trust factor in SS.
I was just pondering why there is push back, and I believe now it's a bit "I believe it when I see it". In criminal cases that are televised we clearly see the evidence, victims, etc. It's harder to ignore.

I fully support SS but it's clear there are many who do not, I was just pondering why that might be the case.

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Re: Bob MacDonald SafeSport Ban

Postby heddylamar » Tue Jun 23, 2020 5:15 pm

If the past 4 years have taught us nothing else, it's pretty clear people don't "believe it when [they] see it."

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Re: Bob MacDonald SafeSport Ban

Postby Ryeissa » Tue Jun 23, 2020 6:55 pm

heddylamar wrote:If the past 4 years have taught us nothing else, it's pretty clear people don't "believe it when [they] see it."


But my point is they don't believe because they do NOT see it . safe sport is quite secretive. I am not for or against it but there is a huge problem when they are not naming names, etc. Easier to deny its true....

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Re: Bob MacDonald SafeSport Ban

Postby Ponichiwa » Tue Jun 23, 2020 7:24 pm

Ryeissa wrote:
heddylamar wrote:If the past 4 years have taught us nothing else, it's pretty clear people don't "believe it when [they] see it."


But my point is they don't believe because they do NOT see it . safe sport is quite secretive. I am not for or against it but there is a huge problem when they are not naming names, etc. Easier to deny its true....


Think of it like a company HR department. You don't need to know why Mike M. Bezzler was fired.

And with cases of criminal conduct involving minors, there are protections against releasing names.

This isn't a conspiracy.

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Re: Bob MacDonald SafeSport Ban

Postby heddylamar » Tue Jun 23, 2020 7:27 pm

Ryeissa wrote:
heddylamar wrote:If the past 4 years have taught us nothing else, it's pretty clear people don't "believe it when [they] see it."


But my point is they don't believe because they do NOT see it . safe sport is quite secretive. I am not for or against it but there is a huge problem when they are not naming names, etc. Easier to deny its true....


And my point is that even when there's AV evidence, someone will still claim it's not true.

People will believe what they will; that's their problem. Safe Sport is right to protect the victims.

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Re: Bob MacDonald SafeSport Ban

Postby KathyK » Wed Jun 24, 2020 2:09 am

Ryeissa wrote:The one concern I have with SS is there is no open trial, so we have no idea about the victims, evidence, etc. Not saying that we must, but it is hard to trust what we can't see. That is where it leaves the door open for these kinds of statements.


Well, there is no "open trial" because there is no trial at all. An organization mandated by Congress to investigate complaints brought to it does so, and then decides whether there is enough evidence to say that the person against whom the complaint or complaints were brought cannot participate in sanctioned events. No one is found guilty, no one is sentenced to prison, no one is fined. But you get kicked out of the club.

My understanding is that these decisions are not made lightly or without very solid evidence. This is as is should be when reputations can be ruined and lives changed forever.

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Re: Bob MacDonald SafeSport Ban

Postby Ryeissa » Wed Jun 24, 2020 3:13 pm

KathyK wrote:
Ryeissa wrote:The one concern I have with SS is there is no open trial, so we have no idea about the victims, evidence, etc. Not saying that we must, but it is hard to trust what we can't see. That is where it leaves the door open for these kinds of statements.


Well, there is no "open trial" because there is no trial at all. An organization mandated by Congress to investigate complaints brought to it does so, and then decides whether there is enough evidence to say that the person against whom the complaint or complaints were brought cannot participate in sanctioned events. No one is found guilty, no one is sentenced to prison, no one is fined. But you get kicked out of the club.

My understanding is that these decisions are not made lightly or without very solid evidence. This is as is should be when reputations can be ruined and lives changed forever.


yes, I have been though SS training. Its just not clear what the evidence is, and that means less validity when these bans come into place.
Although this is more of a code of conduct issue there is definitely a "trail by media" when they play out.
But assuming the evidence is sound, well. they shouldn't do this if they didn't want the fall out.

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Re: Bob MacDonald SafeSport Ban

Postby blob » Wed Jun 24, 2020 5:16 pm

SS has a lot of rules that could potentially end up in a gray area: texting a minor outside of a group chat, traveling alone with a minor, etc. However, these aren't the violations that get you banned.

All of the violations that have result in someone being banned have involved sexual relations with a minor. I don't need to know the details of that to know it's bad enough. And in many cases these men are getting off easy, not facing criminal charges

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Re: Bob MacDonald SafeSport Ban

Postby Ryeissa » Wed Jun 24, 2020 5:40 pm

blob wrote:SS has a lot of rules that could potentially end up in a gray area: texting a minor outside of a group chat, traveling alone with a minor, etc. However, these aren't the violations that get you banned.

All of the violations that have result in someone being banned have involved sexual relations with a minor. I don't need to know the details of that to know it's bad enough. And in many cases these men are getting off easy, not facing criminal charges


I know, we know what SS is...I said I took the training and I am in support....... In a court case we know about the "discovery"- DNA evidence, documents, dates/times, etc. I am just pointing out that we don't know ANY of that in SS, personally I don't care but this leaves SS open to "45 years ago" ideas. They can say whatever they want to minimize, so it's harder to get people like Robert Dover "on board". This is why it's hard it's not a criminal trial. They have to show their hand. I am saying this weakens SS's position- there are consequences.

Just like when in the early 90s one of the victims of the R. Kelly rape cases refused to go to the trial and they let him go. Totally their right to now come forward (I am not saying the NEED to!) but the strength of Epstein's victims is they put faces and stories to the trauma, it was very compelling.

SS doesn't do that, for better or worse.

Maybe even with that people won't believe the victims who knows.

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Re: Bob MacDonald SafeSport Ban

Postby KathyK » Wed Jun 24, 2020 7:18 pm

There's no point in continuing to compare SS's procedures to court procedures. Open court can be absolutely devastating for the victims, but without their testimony, there's no case. Fortunately, SS can look at the evidence and make a decision without compelling the victims to out themselves.

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Re: Bob MacDonald SafeSport Ban

Postby Ryeissa » Wed Jun 24, 2020 8:43 pm

KathyK wrote: Fortunately, SS can look at the evidence and make a decision without compelling the victims to out themselves.


yeah, that is my point. Dover can't possibly believe it, he doesn't see any evidence.

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Re: Bob MacDonald SafeSport Ban

Postby Chisamba » Wed Jun 24, 2020 9:18 pm

He chooses not to believe it like some people choose to believe the moon landing was faked. There are literally millions of evidences we believe that we don't see.

Why. Because people who have seen the evidence say so.

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Re: Bob MacDonald SafeSport Ban

Postby Hot4Spots » Thu Jun 25, 2020 12:26 am

SS has authority in these issues over ALL Olympic/international sports. Other sports have accepted this and are policing their sports and supporting SS. Only the equestrians are fighting it so much. Why? I'd bet most SS administrators didn't know GM from Larry Bird. But Dover, e.g. et al. are all, " Oh, no, he's my friend! It can't be true! " etc.

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Re: Bob MacDonald SafeSport Ban

Postby KathyK » Thu Jun 25, 2020 12:35 am

I was wondering whether there's been as much wailing and carrying on in other sports as there's been in ours.

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Re: Bob MacDonald SafeSport Ban

Postby Sue B » Thu Jun 25, 2020 4:37 pm

Figure skating is even more vocal than the equestrian world. I'll bet there's quite a bit of "wailing" in the world of gymnastics too. Probably not so much is "lesser" sports like shooting and boating. I recall a movie from the 80's starring Mariel Hemingway in which sexual abuse of a young female track star by her much older coach was the main theme of the movie. This has been going on forever.

lest you forget, however, women are often just as guilty of predatory behavior...straight, bi and hetero. Recently, in our rural state we've had several cases of female teachers in the mid-twenties to mid-thirties preying on their high school age students. I graduated HS in the late 70's and even then we had a predatory female teacher who use to drape her breast over the guys' shoulders. She was summarily dismissed but never subject to legal ramifications. Had one like that in college as well. Given that some of those male students were married or monogamous relationships, those guys did not appreciate being treated that way. She too was eventually asked to leave, no different from her male counterparts preying on female students.

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Re: Bob MacDonald SafeSport Ban

Postby Ryeissa » Fri Jun 26, 2020 3:34 pm

Sue B wrote:lest you forget, however, women are often just as guilty of predatory behavior...straight, bi and hetero.


yes, totally agree. I think that is the next wave of MeToo that needs to hit. Men or women victims from women predators.

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Re: Bob MacDonald SafeSport Ban

Postby Ryeissa » Sat Jun 27, 2020 5:33 pm

Athlete A was a great show, I suggest everyone watch it in Netflix. It's really alarming how out of hand it got. I don't really follow gynmnastics /news so I didn't realize a lot of what went on.

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Re: Bob MacDonald SafeSport Ban

Postby Snork » Tue Jul 07, 2020 12:33 am

The USAG "permanently ineligible" list is a mile long, and growing. Athlete A, horrifying as it is, barely scratches the surface of what went on with Nassar and the associated creeps. Nassar was, and is, a monster but he could have never gotten away with what he did if it hadn't been for deniers like Kathy Klages and John Geddert, something Athlete A doesn't really cover much. These are the people who "couldn't believe" their friend would do something like that. They wanted to know more details before determining if the abuse was bad enough to be considered abuse. They just wanted to silence the girls and keep their idols intact, clay legs and all.

I am a relatively recent USAG judge (although I do not judge artistic gymnastics). I don't know the "this is just the way things are" because i didn't grow up in the system. Gymnastics was never my sport - I came to the sport as a mom of an athlete, and in many ways I look at things as a mom. The mental and physical cruelty is still, unfortunately, prevalent but the sexual abuse isn't even a line in the sand - it is a flaming, burning river of oil that none should cross. Judges are mandatory reporters and the training was clear and unequivocal - see something, say something, IMMEDIATELY. Don't ask for details. Don't pry. Don't try to corroborate or find evidence to the contrary. Don't try to determine if anything untoward has occurred, just report it. It's not for the judge/trainer/buddy to figure out what happened, let SafeSport sort it out. I can't tell you have many times that was emphasized in the initial training, the reporting obligations were a large part of the test, and, then again, yearly refresher. "Not for you to judge, not for you to question - if you hear it, you have to report it." Maybe I've been lucky, or maybe i hang around with good people, but i don't hear a lot of bellyaching about the SafeSport bans in USAG.

From where I stand, Dover et al look like Kathy Klages to me. It's not a good look on anyone, and I wish they'd look in the mirror.

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Re: Bob MacDonald SafeSport Ban

Postby Ryeissa » Fri Aug 21, 2020 4:57 pm


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Re: Bob MacDonald SafeSport Ban

Postby Sue B » Fri Aug 21, 2020 5:40 pm

Figures....

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Re: Bob MacDonald SafeSport Ban

Postby Ryeissa » Fri Aug 21, 2020 5:56 pm

Sue B wrote:Figures....

? why? Do you know anything specific about this? I have no idea beyond what I read. Never met either of them personally


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