When do you consider a horse dangerous?

Lipsmackerpony88
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1354
Joined: Sat Apr 25, 2020 3:17 pm

When do you consider a horse dangerous?

Postby Lipsmackerpony88 » Mon Jan 25, 2021 8:32 pm

So I have a friend that has a horse that's definitely odd and can be difficult. Mostly on the ground, better behaved under saddle but also has not done much under saddle.

I'm wondering if he's crossing the line of dangerous. The owner is a former professional and thinks that it's just a matter of only extremely competent and experienced horse people handling him.

I've known him since a yearling. He's always been difficult. He has had always medical difficulties and still has various issues today. Obviously I think the medical issues are a big factor but she's literally doing everything she can to help him be comfortable. Ulcers are a huge problem among other things which obviously doesn't help a horses mood. I'm not sure what else there is to do though about that. She's trying everything and spending tons of money just on the ulcers alone.

As a yearling he was one you never turned your back on. And now full grown, I had a vet tell me the same thing. He's one you never let your guard down with. He bit me as a two year old. Has kicked people (He's just very guarded about his body.)

She's tactfully been asked to leave two barns because they didn't feel that they're barn staff was safe dealing with him.


I feel for her and I wonder if it's coming down to three options with him.

1. If he's not sound for work (she's still trying to get him comfortable for work) then try to retire him to pasture. He already lives out 24/7 now. The issue is if he needs to be given any meds or supplements he's not easy for barn staff to deal with.

2. If he is sound for work, maybe he needs to go to a trainer that specializes in complicated horses. But that's if the medical issues get under control.

3. Euthanize. He's very young and this obviously would be a last resort. I have not suggested this one. But I'm not going to lie I do fear that one day I'm going to get notified that she's got severely injured or that somebody else has gotten injured by him. It's gotten pretty close to that already as far as barn staff getting hurt. It's just been minor injuries so far.

I'm just curious what people categorize as a dangerous horse versus a horse that just needs to be carefully managed. Is it the unpredictability that makes people consider a horse dangerous? Or is it an inherit aggressiveness? What would you do with a horse like this? It seems so incredibly stressful to own a horse like this.

Sometimes I wonder if there is more medical issues lurking beneath the surface that have yet to be discovered and that is maybe a root to this behavior. Or a pain that they have not gotten under control and is causing an extreme case of ulcers as well.

Ryeissa
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 2349
Joined: Mon Oct 12, 2015 1:41 pm

Re: When do you consider a horse dangerous?

Postby Ryeissa » Mon Jan 25, 2021 9:22 pm

Its so hard to say, but there are a lot of red flags here..... As an owner who relies on boarding I can not risk getting sued. the horses that I knew who have had behavior issues related to medical issues were ulcer horses. This was obvious after treatment/more turnout/diet changes and the horses are much better now.
Has the horse been scoped?

Ryeissa
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 2349
Joined: Mon Oct 12, 2015 1:41 pm

Re: When do you consider a horse dangerous?

Postby Ryeissa » Mon Jan 25, 2021 9:25 pm

back to your question, I consider a horse dangerous that bites, kicked, bucks (regularly), and can not be led safely. I have a very very low tolerance though.

PaulaO
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 2174
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2015 4:16 pm
Location: Northern Illinois

Re: When do you consider a horse dangerous?

Postby PaulaO » Mon Jan 25, 2021 9:40 pm

He’s dangerous now. No waiting for a diagnosis. Biting, kicking, and you say you couldn’t turn your back on him as a youngster. I’m not experienced with doing a lot of diagnostics, but how far has the owner gone with scans, lameness exams? If his behavior is due to pain, the pain must be pretty severe and therefore fairly obvious. And since the horse has been like this since a youngster, IMHO it’s something other than physical.

Lipsmackerpony88
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1354
Joined: Sat Apr 25, 2020 3:17 pm

Re: When do you consider a horse dangerous?

Postby Lipsmackerpony88 » Mon Jan 25, 2021 9:42 pm

They know he has ulcers through scoping. There has been improvement but it doesn't take much for him to start getting ulcers. He has all kinds of issues... Allergies, OCD's, arthritis and such. He's pretty young and not worked much yet. He's by a well known stallion which I'm told isn't known for the easiest Temperament. So that complicates things too I'm sure.

He lives out 24/7, no grain, light workload (and lots of time off.)
I feel for because she's trying to address everything that is making him uncomfortable. She found a barn and she thought the management would be awesome for him but now she's getting kicked out. because the barn stuff is intimidated by him it doesn't feel safe.

Lipsmackerpony88
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1354
Joined: Sat Apr 25, 2020 3:17 pm

Re: When do you consider a horse dangerous?

Postby Lipsmackerpony88 » Mon Jan 25, 2021 9:45 pm

PaulaO wrote:He’s dangerous now. No waiting for a diagnosis. Biting, kicking, and you say you couldn’t turn your back on him as a youngster. I’m not experienced with doing a lot of diagnostics, but how far has the owner gone with scans, lameness exams? If his behavior is due to pain, the pain must be pretty severe and therefore fairly obvious. And since the horse has been like this since a youngster, IMHO it’s something other than physical.


I'm kind of thinking that too. Make something has always just been off with him. And slowly physical things are coming to light and honestly he's still young (5 or 6?)

She's done extensive x-rays and blood test. And of course scoping and treating ulcers. There have been findings on x-rays which they are trying to treat. The ulcers have been an uphill battle despite various treatments and different management / diets. No babe scan though.

I'm a little worried that she's a little in denial about the risk/liability.

acheyarcher
Herd Member
Posts: 169
Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2018 1:01 pm
Location: Puget Sound country

Re: When do you consider a horse dangerous?

Postby acheyarcher » Mon Jan 25, 2021 9:56 pm

Sounds like a horse that was born defective and cannot function normally. Chronic health issues from yearling , if not before, tells me this is a non functional animal. Makes me wonder if there is brain circulation defect that makes him neurotic.

As a friend you are in a very unfortunate position where you might be called on to lend emotional support in a situation you feel at odds with.

I personally think there are worse things that euthanasia. I cannot imagine what the behavior is like and how dangerous the situation may be getting if she has been dismissed from 2 barns in 4-5 years . Unfortunately someone is probably going to have to be very severely injured in order for her to see the light. It is sad that , perhaps, no vet has had the gumption to say this horse is just not normal and perhaps she should put it down

Ponichiwa
500 post plus club
Posts: 850
Joined: Mon Oct 12, 2015 2:27 pm

Re: When do you consider a horse dangerous?

Postby Ponichiwa » Mon Jan 25, 2021 10:09 pm

Oof that's tough. On the one hand, your friend is right: this horse does need to only be handled by extremely competent and experienced professionals. On the other, those unicorns of horse handling have to exist everywhere this horse will ever be-- all vet staff, all barn staff, for his entire life-- and they also have to be alert all the time when handling or interacting with a horse like this.

That's a big ask. If it's your own horse on your own property without any other interaction... maybe you can control the environment and limit who comes in contact with this horse. But that's a big maybe. And the horse does not sound comfortable or happy (which are my criteria for euth) regardless.

I had a horse who was a handful, but not maliciously, on the ground. Would nip or paw and looked like those Rolex trot-up bloopers every time I tried to jog him in hand. But he was an absolute joy to ride and did not endanger barn staff (most of his naughtiness was reserved for grooming, not leading in/out). Not dangerous.

I also owned his opposite: very pleasant and cute on the ground, but absolutely unpredictable under saddle. That horse I would call dangerous-- can't ever trust that this won't be the time that you get tossed into the dirt after a benign and undramatic canter request. But not a euth candidate given the happy and comfortable criteria.

Young horses are a bit of a grey area-- they do need some time for brains to grow into their bodies, generally, and there's a strong let's-solve-this-problem-with-athleticism matched with not-a-whole-lot-of-patience that can lead to some dramatic moments. So. If it's young horse shenanigans, I tend to lean towards "handle with care" and not let any old yahoo move them around. But if it's a little more insidious than that and is not getting better with work/age, would be looking at other options.
Last edited by Ponichiwa on Mon Jan 25, 2021 10:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Lipsmackerpony88
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1354
Joined: Sat Apr 25, 2020 3:17 pm

Re: When do you consider a horse dangerous?

Postby Lipsmackerpony88 » Mon Jan 25, 2021 10:10 pm

acheyarcher wrote:Sounds like a horse that was born defective and cannot function normally. Chronic health issues from yearling , if not before, tells me this is a non functional animal. Makes me wonder if there is brain circulation defect that makes him neurotic.

As a friend you are in a very unfortunate position where you might be called on to lend emotional support in a situation you feel at odds with.

I personally think there are worse things that euthanasia. I cannot imagine what the behavior is like and how dangerous the situation may be getting if she has been dismissed from 2 barns in 4-5 years . Unfortunately someone is probably going to have to be very severely injured in order for her to see the light. It is sad that , perhaps, no vet has had the gumption to say this horse is just not normal and perhaps she should put it down


That's what I'm wondering. I know there was complications at birth. He had a rough few years of life. I know the thinking was because of his start, that's why he was defensive. But now medical issues coming to light... I do wonder if he was born just not right.

I agree that a vet needs to step up here. But I think some are seeing dollar signs. There is a lot to treat... although it's been unsuccessful at least past a few months of some improvement.

There was a severe neurological episode a few years ago. They never did figure it out but a high dose of Dex took care of it. I have no idea if there's any connection but I do find it very interesting given the situation what's going on.

Poor guy :( poor owner too. I know these situations are really hard. Although I do think reality needs to set in.

Moutaineer
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 2479
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2015 2:45 pm
Location: Utah

Re: When do you consider a horse dangerous?

Postby Moutaineer » Mon Jan 25, 2021 10:17 pm

My big old Appy can be like this. He's coming 25 and I've had him for 15 years. If he wasn't as stunning-looking as he is, he's have been euthanized years ago.

I've always had to tell people to treat him like a stallion, and over the years I've had to be very selective where I board him when I have had to--small, personal facilities with experienced handlers. In other situations things have got dicey a couple of times. He was quite difficult to keep in a pasture situation at home because he thought he was in charge and you couldn't ever pick a fight with him.

Because he's very attractive and personable, and a rockstar under saddle, people think I'm over-reacting, but he can turn nasty in a nanosecond. I mean it when I say no kids or inexperienced people handling him, keep his stall aisle window shut when there are people in the barn, don't go into his stall to try and do stuff like blanketing, take him out and put him on the cross-ties, don't turn him out with other horses. I've moved out of barns because people don't take him seriously.

He's actually much better and happier in a solid work program and in a facility with a rigid routine. But, I still don't let my guard down around him and insist that no-one else does either.

He'll never be able to retire peacefully to pasture. When he becomes unsound and/or our current boarding and leasing arrangement comes to an end, I can see myself having him euthanized.

With him, it's not a soundness or pain problem, it's a poorly socialized with horses and humans early in his life problem, when he was a stallion and was badly manhandled from what I have gleaned from his history. He doesn't read social situations well, so I have to think them through for him and not put him in situations he considers dangerous or worth fighting about.

Frankly, it's exhausting at times. He's safe where he is now, but I'm pretty clear-eyed about his future, and I think my vet would regretfully agree with me.

Lipsmackerpony88
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1354
Joined: Sat Apr 25, 2020 3:17 pm

Re: When do you consider a horse dangerous?

Postby Lipsmackerpony88 » Mon Jan 25, 2021 10:23 pm

[quote="Ponichiwa"]Oof that's tough. On the one hand, your friend is right: this horse does need to only be handled by extremely competent and experienced professionals. On the other, those unicorns of horse handling have to exist everywhere this horse will ever be-- all vet staff, all barn staff, for his entire life-- and they also have to be alert all the time when handling or interacting with a horse like this.

That's a big ask. If it's your own horse on your own property without any other interaction... maybe you can control the environment and limit who comes in contact with this horse. But that's a big maybe. And the horse does not sound comfortable or happy (which are my criteria for euth) regardless.

I had a horse who was a handful, but not maliciously, on the ground. Would nip or paw and looked like those Rolex trot-up bloopers every time I tried to jog him in hand. But he was an absolute joy to ride and did not endanger barn staff (most of his naughtiness was reserved for grooming, not leading in/out). Not dangerous.

I also owned his opposite: very pleasant and cute on the ground, but absolutely unpredictable under saddle. That horse I would call dangerous-- can't ever trust that this won't be the time that you get tossed into the dirt after a benign and undramatic canter request. But not a euth candidate given the happy and comfortable criteria.

Young horses are a bit of a grey area-- they do need some time for brains to grow into their bodies, generally, and there's a strong let's-solve-this-problem-with-athleticism matched with not-a-whole-lot-of-patience that can lead to some dramatic moments. So. If it's young horse shenanigans, I tend to lean towards "handle with care" and not let any old yahoo move them around. But if it's a little more insidious than that and is not getting better with work/age, would be looking at other options.[/quote

I told her I would look for a barn that maybe has experience handling stud horses. He's not a stud and in my opinion many can be very very well-behaved but we all know that they are for very experienced handlers. I worked at breeding barn in my early 20's.

I think the hardest part of him is there is a bit of unpredictability. There is no relaxing on the ground around him. If you make the wrong move and he gets defensive he will kick or bite. The two barns she's been asked to leave were professional programs with good trainers. And I know she did warn them that he's tricky. Although I'm not sure she's conveying how tricky he is. and I think it comes down to most boarding barns or even training barns are hesitant to deal with something like this day in and day out. at the last two barns she already had set it up where they had pretty minimal contact with him. since he lived outside 24/7 there was no turnout for instance mostly just feeding. In both barns decided that was too much. I haven't seen him in a year or so but with so many professionals waving the white flag, it's concerning imo.

I just think you can't look past all the discomfort on top of the behavior. I'm not really sure what she should do because she is done a lot at least medically/management wise.

so far he's been good under saddle and that really is a blessing. I wouldn't say he looks happy under saddle or that he's progressing but he's not dangerous under saddle if that makes sense.

It's just such a tough situation. I was so worried about my Wobblers horse accidentally falling or tripping on the barn staff. I can imagine worrying about my horse kicking somebody.

Lipsmackerpony88
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1354
Joined: Sat Apr 25, 2020 3:17 pm

Re: When do you consider a horse dangerous?

Postby Lipsmackerpony88 » Mon Jan 25, 2021 10:27 pm

You know I misspoke I guess it sounds like he is pretty predictable. I think what sounds like one of the trickiest things about him is he is defensive about his bodyand has a severe lack of respect for anybody's space. There definitely have been some close calls with people in his pen with him. Whether this lack of respect for the space could be managed with training or if it's just some sign that something is wrong I don't know.

Lipsmackerpony88
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1354
Joined: Sat Apr 25, 2020 3:17 pm

Re: When do you consider a horse dangerous?

Postby Lipsmackerpony88 » Mon Jan 25, 2021 10:30 pm

Mountaineer, that that does sound a bit similar. Because of her horses start in life I do wonder if there is a socialization aspect although she did the best she could to socialize and given the circumstance.

He's one that if he was completely sound I wonder if a more intense training schedule would help... But I don't think it sounds like he will ever be capable of anything other than lower level dressage/light riding. I don't think her vet has said that to her but that's just me knowing the history and it just really does not look good to me.

Kudos to you for doing it for 15 years! it does sound very exhausting and you sound like a very educated and realistic owner. He's extremely lucky to have you!

Moutaineer
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 2479
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2015 2:45 pm
Location: Utah

Re: When do you consider a horse dangerous?

Postby Moutaineer » Mon Jan 25, 2021 10:41 pm

24/7 turnout isn't actually ideal for this kind of horse in my opinion. They turn kind of feral and are far more dangerous to then deal with when you have to.

In many ways, he's been the joy of my life. Game for any adventure, safe as houses worker bee under saddle, teacher, clown. But, Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde.

If he was just a jerk, it would be easier in many ways.
Last edited by Moutaineer on Mon Jan 25, 2021 10:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Lipsmackerpony88
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1354
Joined: Sat Apr 25, 2020 3:17 pm

Re: When do you consider a horse dangerous?

Postby Lipsmackerpony88 » Mon Jan 25, 2021 10:43 pm

Mountaineer, I think she's doing that because of his soundness issues and ulcers. She's actually seen an improvement in his behavior the more space he has. But she's been the only one to directly handle him and does have to be there to handle him everyday. but the barn stuff was still feeding and that was an issue in itself. I can understand your point, I think she's kind of in between a rock and a hard place with this horse though.

I know for some people this is a sacrifice to be made for a beautiful performance horse. Unfortunately despite her every intentions for him to reach that upper levels I think it is obvious that he will not get close to what she intended when she bred her mare.

piedmontfields
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 2735
Joined: Mon Oct 19, 2015 4:41 pm
Location: E Tennessee USA

Re: When do you consider a horse dangerous?

Postby piedmontfields » Mon Jan 25, 2021 11:47 pm

I board at a barn that imports lots of very athletic young horses from Ireland. They can be a handful their first few months (flying like a kite while leading on cold days), but none are consistently dangerous (because they are selected carefully mostly for resale to amateurs

Your friend has a very different situation and euthanasia probably needs to enter into the option list. Even if she had her own barn, there would be serious management issues.

M., your description of Walker reminds me of how hard it is to communicate proper management in a new boarding situation. I do not have a horse like Walker, but Emi becomes a bit feral without consistent handling or when she is stressed. At various points during her stall rest, I had experienced horse people tell me "she cannot be caught in her stall" to have her wraps removed. I of course laughed at the mare and caught her, but I see what they mean---she can revert to panicky, hyper fearful horse when her routine is disrupted. It was actually a less experienced staffer who noticed "you just have to be even more quiet and slow with her now, so that she is not afraid." Horses---not always what we think they are!

Lipsmackerpony88
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1354
Joined: Sat Apr 25, 2020 3:17 pm

Re: When do you consider a horse dangerous?

Postby Lipsmackerpony88 » Mon Jan 25, 2021 11:50 pm

Piedmontfields, yeah the barn she's just been asked to leave gets a lot of young horse imports, so it sounds like they feel he's different :(

Josette
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1360
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2015 3:53 pm
Location: NJ

Re: When do you consider a horse dangerous?

Postby Josette » Mon Jan 25, 2021 11:59 pm

Honestly, if I were in this situation boarding a horse with ulcers, soundness issues, high medical costs plus dangerous to handle - option #3. Life is too short and humane euthanasia is not a horrible decision - sad yes. There are so many other horses to be found that could give her real pleasure.

I owned a PT/QH who was similar to the description of Mountaineer's older gelding. My guy was a stallion (as in breeding) then gelded at age 4. He was territorial in his stall - just like Mountaineer described. He required private turnout as food aggressive and could be rough with other horses. I learned his handling quirks but he did bite me a few times when I let my guard down. Wicked fast like a snake strike. Under saddle he was a Worker Bee - very focused and FUN in the ring and safe for trail riding.

Then he was dx with navicular and I retired him after spending a fortune trying to get him sound. Initially, I was boarding as my barn was being built and then moved him to our farm. If I had to board him as a retiree while unsound - I would have PTS. However, I continued to maintain an unsound cranky gelding for 13 years in my backyard. On hind sight - maybe not so smart because I let my emotions rule me.

User avatar
Chisamba
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 4454
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2015 10:33 pm
Location: New Jersey

Re: When do you consider a horse dangerous?

Postby Chisamba » Tue Jan 26, 2021 12:03 am

Moutaineer wrote:24/7 turnout isn't actually ideal for this kind of horse in my opinion. They turn kind of feral and are far more dangerous to then deal with when you have to.

In many ways, he's been the joy of my life. Game for any adventure, safe as houses worker bee under saddle, teacher, clown. But, Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde.

If he was just a jerk, it would be easier in many ways.


completely agree. this is the kind of horse that needs daily in, out, haltering, tying, leading . It's like Deneb. 24/7 turn out increases her anxiety and tendency to suddenly do something dangerous

User avatar
Chisamba
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 4454
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2015 10:33 pm
Location: New Jersey

Re: When do you consider a horse dangerous?

Postby Chisamba » Tue Jan 26, 2021 12:05 am

The weird thing about dangerous horses is the vets have a blind spot . if you have a dangerous dog that bites the vet will be prepared to put it to sleep.

if you have a dangerous horse that bites and kicks, they won't.

Lipsmackerpony88
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1354
Joined: Sat Apr 25, 2020 3:17 pm

Re: When do you consider a horse dangerous?

Postby Lipsmackerpony88 » Tue Jan 26, 2021 12:10 am

She handles him daily. It's the barns that refused to handle him anymore. Unfortunately some people think he's too much of a risk and liability. I can not say I blame them.

Although she said she saw a huge improvement from him being in pasture board so she's pretty upset that things aren't working out at this barn.

She's looking for a new place now, I think somewhere that's handled studs might be the next option.

Lipsmackerpony88
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1354
Joined: Sat Apr 25, 2020 3:17 pm

Re: When do you consider a horse dangerous?

Postby Lipsmackerpony88 » Tue Jan 26, 2021 12:12 am

Chisamba wrote:The weird thing about dangerous horses is the vets have a blind spot . if you have a dangerous dog that bites the vet will be prepared to put it to sleep.

if you have a dangerous horse that bites and kicks, they won't.



That is true. I wonder if it's because vets just automatically accept that there's more liability with horses? Where with dogs, we really expect that they are safe to be around at all times?

Sometimes I think you have to ask vets a very direct question to get answers for these kinds of things too. I'm not sure if that's a liability thing or what.

heddylamar
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1405
Joined: Wed Oct 14, 2015 3:04 pm
Location: Texas (o_O)

Re: When do you consider a horse dangerous?

Postby heddylamar » Tue Jan 26, 2021 12:21 am

Similar to Walker and Emi, my older mare Anzia thrives on quiet and routine. Put her in a big barn with kids, lessons, lots of dogs, and staff turnover, her anxiety takes over and my sweet, well-mannered mare becomes a fire breathing dragon who panic charges people in the pasture. We've been at my barn owner's farm for 12 years where one person handling everything on a regular schedule. Not once has Anzia charged, kicked, or otherwise lashed out. That's the mare I know and trust with my friend's shy kid.

Your friend's horse sounds like a disaster waiting to happen. If he can't be handled safely on the ground, and she's not riding him ... I'd strongly consider euthanizing.

Lipsmackerpony88
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1354
Joined: Sat Apr 25, 2020 3:17 pm

Re: When do you consider a horse dangerous?

Postby Lipsmackerpony88 » Tue Jan 26, 2021 12:31 am

Josette, I keep thinking about that too. I don't see much stacked in a positive direction here and then put board on top of it, it's just all so much. She's trying so hard and I know she does want the best for him. But sometimes I think our emotions block reality.

Heddylamar, it's gotten close to disaster although I think with a less experienced horse person. It's still really should never have happened but he needs to be handled by the most experienced, clear and aware horsemen.

She's lightly riding him but it's been very on and off due to his health issues.

Tanga
500 post plus club
Posts: 959
Joined: Sat Apr 13, 2019 2:32 am

Re: When do you consider a horse dangerous?

Postby Tanga » Tue Jan 26, 2021 1:34 am

I agree with everyone. I have handled and ridden some very dangerous horses that I was able to make safe. And I knew one that sounds just like this one. You never knew what she would do or why. I don't know what happened to her, but I would not have touched her for anything and suggested euthanasia.

If the owner can afford it, retirement where it is safe is an option. Any good trainer with difficult horses is not going to take a horse like this. Why would anyone competent endanger themselves? Unless he is some world class talent, why would anyone do that?

This is a more you know, the less you know, and the less you know, the more you think you can do situation. Anyone who thinks they can fix this doesn't know much.

I'm sorry for your friend.

Quinn CAN be a tough horse and I won't put just anyone on her. I will let people ride with supervision. But she never does anything dangerous because she disrespects you or wants to hurt you, but because she is super sensitive, tight, and big and strong. That's a huge difference.

heddylamar
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1405
Joined: Wed Oct 14, 2015 3:04 pm
Location: Texas (o_O)

Re: When do you consider a horse dangerous?

Postby heddylamar » Tue Jan 26, 2021 3:11 am

Tanga wrote:That I was able to make safe.


I'm cherry picking this extremely important point from Tanga's fabulous post. If after all this time friend hasn't been able to set this horse up to be it's best self, will she really be able to?

My mom is a very experienced horse person. She found a rescue mare who was anxious, a lot like Anzia. Except she was always anxious, and explosive. Mom ended up with broken ribs (one incident) and a broken wrist (second incident) just from groundwork.

Dad — who is NOT a horse person — insisted the mare was just misunderstood, and was horrified the two of us — and the vet — wanted to euthanize. He found someone to adopt the mare.

Days before the woman came to pick her up, the mare got cast and broke a leg. I've never been so horrified. And relieved. I still feel a bit guilty that I was so relieved dad didn't send this mare out into the world to injure another person.

khall
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 2515
Joined: Mon Oct 12, 2015 1:47 am

Re: When do you consider a horse dangerous?

Postby khall » Tue Jan 26, 2021 3:37 am

I own a semi dangerous horse and have handled very dangerous stallions as a professional stallion handler.

Rip’s dam Gallie can be pretty dangerous in certain situations. Mainly her stall but you also have to be careful handling her when she eats outside. She’s pretty good with me because I know how not to push her buttons that sets her off. Anyone else they put a halter on her or move her to another stall to clean. She’s 25 now. 26 later this year. I’ve had her since she was a weanling I’ve been bitten once badly by her and she got my mom once. She’s gone after others though not gotten them. She’s a wonderful horse to ride even for novice riders and if she is haltered easy to deal with. Neither Rip nor Gaila have any difficult temperament in this manner. Rip is a PIA but never ugly.

A couple of the stallions I handled were known problems one in particular was very dangerous I ended up with a busted lip after her went for my face after handling him for collecting.

I boarded one German import that I could not turn out with another horse. He was fine with humans and handling but wanted to kill other horses.

Gallie has personal space issues that mean she is defensive if you go in expecting her to be ok with you in her space. I just make sure she’s eating and busy while I’m cleaning and just click if I need her to move don’t touch. I can groom her carefully while she’s eating but also respect if she says enough.

I feel lucky to have my own farm so I can make the decisions as to how I ha for my horses. Biggest issue is finding someone to care for them when I need to go off. The one person I relied on for years absolutely hated Gallie. She while having owned and handled horses for years had little tolerance for Gallie’s special handling issues.

Quelah
Herd Member
Posts: 420
Joined: Mon Oct 12, 2015 12:38 am

Re: When do you consider a horse dangerous?

Postby Quelah » Tue Jan 26, 2021 5:22 am

Lipsmackerpony88 wrote:
Chisamba wrote:The weird thing about dangerous horses is the vets have a blind spot . if you have a dangerous dog that bites the vet will be prepared to put it to sleep.

if you have a dangerous horse that bites and kicks, they won't.



That is true. I wonder if it's because vets just automatically accept that there's more liability with horses? Where with dogs, we really expect that they are safe to be around at all times?

Sometimes I think you have to ask vets a very direct question to get answers for these kinds of things too. I'm not sure if that's a liability thing or what.


The law sees it differently too. Horses do bite people, drawing blood etc, it does happen. I have yet to hear of a horse (neither has any animal control officer that I've ever talked to) that was either quarantined for rabies after a bite, or labeled as a "dangerous/potentially dangerous" animal with legal signage and restrictions placed on it.

Lipsmackerpony88
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1354
Joined: Sat Apr 25, 2020 3:17 pm

Re: When do you consider a horse dangerous?

Postby Lipsmackerpony88 » Tue Jan 26, 2021 5:24 am

Quelah that's a good point.

blob
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1752
Joined: Wed Oct 17, 2018 9:37 pm

Re: When do you consider a horse dangerous?

Postby blob » Tue Jan 26, 2021 1:12 pm

There are two questions here, imo.

A horse is dangerous when he/she consistently shows behavior that can hurt someone. That include a grumpy horse who pins ears and nips when people go to pet him. So, that question has been answered about this particular horse. He does behavior regularly that can hurt people, therefore he is currently dangerous.

However, dangerous =/= not fixable, not trainable. A currently dangerous horse does not have to stay a dangerous horse. So, the other question is, when is a horse very high risk and one that is perhaps not worth trying to re-train, or not re-trainable. Imo, this kind of horse fits one (or more) of the following:

*A horse that is unpredictable: there is no easily identifiable trigger for the dangerous behavior. There might BE a trigger, but it is very hard to find/identify. This is hard to re-train/fix because if you don't know what sets it off, you don't know how to change the trigger point.

*A horse that is acting purely out of instinct, rather than making a choice: some horses who kick or bite or rear or buck are doing so because they are making a clear choice. They don't like something, they don't want to do something they act a certain way. If they are making a choice, it's not that difficult to train them to make different choices. I've had a lot of success re-training horses that are dangerous, but calculated in their dangerous behavior. However, when a horse is very reactive and does the dangerous behavior instinctively/impulsively, it is much much harder to change/train. I should also act that if the behavior is linked to pain it usually falls in this instinct/impulse category. So these horses do deserve a thorough examination for causes/sources of pain.

*A horse that that will hurt him or herself in the process: most living things have a self-preservation instinct. They do not want to hurt or endanger themselves. This means there is some kind of limit to what they will and won't do. The most dangerous horses, imo, are the ones that do not seem to have this limit or it is over-ridden by something else. This makes them inherently unpredictable because even if you know the trigger, the reaction to the trigger might be very extreme. The worst horse accident I've had (knock on wood) involved a sweet, but very anxious young horse who got SO scared that he lost all sense of preservation and galloped head first into a metal gate. There was nothing I could have done because his panic had blinded him to such an extreme he couldn't even see or didn't even care.

Lipsmackerpony88
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1354
Joined: Sat Apr 25, 2020 3:17 pm

Re: When do you consider a horse dangerous?

Postby Lipsmackerpony88 » Tue Jan 26, 2021 2:09 pm

Blob, I do agree there are different types of dangerous horses. I've dealt with different types too.

I haven't seen this horse in person in awhile. I just took care of him when he was a youngster. I'm trying to remember but I don't think he was "grumpy." In fact I don't remember him pinning his ears. If he did, it was while he was going for you, but not in any type of warning before he escalated.

Since there is known medical issues, I think it really complicates things. I'm not saying nothing can his behavior but I think him being uncomfortable makes it really difficult. But on top of that, his bloodlines are not known to be easy either.

I hope something changes for him. She's trying really hard... I just hope no one gets seriously hurt.

PaulaO
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 2174
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2015 4:16 pm
Location: Northern Illinois

Re: When do you consider a horse dangerous?

Postby PaulaO » Tue Jan 26, 2021 6:12 pm

It’s not an if somebody gets hurt. The horse is a time bomb and I guarantee the solution of what to do will only happen when someone gets a serious injury.Retirement seems like passing the buck unless the current owner retires him to a place where only she handles him. I say put him down.

Lipsmackerpony88
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1354
Joined: Sat Apr 25, 2020 3:17 pm

Re: When do you consider a horse dangerous?

Postby Lipsmackerpony88 » Tue Jan 26, 2021 6:22 pm

PaulaO I don't disagree...I just unfortunately don't think the owner is thinking that way yet at all...

tlkidding
Herd Member
Posts: 152
Joined: Tue Nov 03, 2015 5:41 pm

Re: When do you consider a horse dangerous?

Postby tlkidding » Wed Jan 27, 2021 5:31 pm

Just wondering, is this horse in 24/7 turnout in a pen or in a several acre pasture with a herd?

Because if he's defensive about his space and his "pen" is his home, I can see why he'd still be defensive. But if he's got several acres and a herd with a good leader, there would be plenty of space for him for find "his space" when someone enters the pasture to feed, etc. He'd be one I'd look to move to a facility with full turnout in a group with a really good herd leader. If he so unsocial he can't be in group turnout, attacks people in a large pasture situation, or ends up needing medical treatment for something and is dangerous, then euthanize.

If she does try sending him to a place with experience handling stallions, see if they can turn him out in the mature broodmare band - they are often the toughest on badly mannered horses.

Ryeissa
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 2349
Joined: Mon Oct 12, 2015 1:41 pm

Re: When do you consider a horse dangerous?

Postby Ryeissa » Wed Jan 27, 2021 6:26 pm

If she keeps him get some serious insurance. Yes, I have had friends sued because the horse hurt someone. I had my neuro horse in a vet hospital for a month in part because I board and didn't want anyone getting injured.

Lipsmackerpony88
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1354
Joined: Sat Apr 25, 2020 3:17 pm

Re: When do you consider a horse dangerous?

Postby Lipsmackerpony88 » Wed Jan 27, 2021 6:35 pm

Tlkidding, he's lived in three different situations as far as I know. Stall with outdoor run and turnout with a few other horses (no real issues in turnout, my horse was with him too.) Then to pen/dry lot paddock with one other horse. Then the last barn was full pasture (huge amount of acreage) with a few other horses. It doesn't sound like he has ever been overly aggressive to other horses though. Just people.

The broodmares band is an interesting idea that I wonder if it would help. He certainly hasn't been exposed to anything like that.

Ryeissa, I agree on the insurance!

PaulaO
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 2174
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2015 4:16 pm
Location: Northern Illinois

Re: When do you consider a horse dangerous?

Postby PaulaO » Wed Jan 27, 2021 6:42 pm

I've always said about @sshole horses "put 'em in with the mares. They'll straighten him out." LOL

texsuze
500 post plus club
Posts: 669
Joined: Mon Oct 12, 2015 4:50 pm
Location: Texas, The Lone Star State!

Re: When do you consider a horse dangerous?

Postby texsuze » Wed Jan 27, 2021 7:21 pm

The last horse I owned before stepping away from riding was predictably unpredictable. Rodeo on the lunge line every time, kicked me in the chest, stomped on my feet, could dump you in a nanosecond for no reason, always had the 'stink eye' look, tried to bite my BHS trainer during in-hand work, and nearly killed us both when attempting to load him (he would NOT load into a trailer). The more I had to recruit DH in loading, the more worried I became that DH would get hurt. I, like your friend, had spent lots of money on veterinary bills and farrier fixes towards tackling what I felt were issues that were causing him to be such a brat. I'm not a wienie when dealing with these guys, but I lost so much weight due to the stress of trying to manage him that folks, behind my back, thought I had a terminal illness.

Family life issues were the core deciding factor in my deciding to re-home this gelding, but in my heart of hearts I knew he had to go. I truly felt he was salvageable and perhaps needed a different job and a different person. He went to a gal who rode Western, and a month after she had him, I got some very nice pics of the two of them, in their show finery, blue ribbons and all mushy smiles! I was so happy he seemed to have found a rider/situation he clicked with, since it obviously was not me. Although he didn't have the always extreme personality and behavior of your friend's horse, my horse was lazy and smart and unpredictable, which proved an unsafe combination for my situation.

I deeply feel the pain your friend must be experiencing. My guy was an unsafe (and getting worse) brat who I believed was salvageable--hers would not appear to be. There is a limit to veterinary, farrier, environment, training attempts, etc. and sadly, some horses are just not capable of responding to the best intentions and care. And it just goes against our grain to consider humane euthanasia for a horse who can still be ridden. Re-homing your friend's horse, IMHO, would simply put another group of folks in the line of fire, with no guarantees that the poor horse would get the benefit of second, third, fourth chances after any mishaps or crisis. I hope she can come to a resolution swiftly; time seems to be of the essence here.

tlkidding
Herd Member
Posts: 152
Joined: Tue Nov 03, 2015 5:41 pm

Re: When do you consider a horse dangerous?

Postby tlkidding » Wed Jan 27, 2021 8:48 pm

PaulaO wrote:I've always said about @sshole horses "put 'em in with the mares. They'll straighten him out." LOL


I honestly believe the only reason my 17.2h gelding never put up much of a fight with me is he always thought I was like one of the broodmares he was turned out with for a few years. They'd get fed out in the pasture in feed pans, and one of the mares would get done and go over to his pan and he'd just walk away (far away) and start grazing. They never even had to make an ugly face at him to get him to move.

Good herd leaders teach a horse a lot about body language, personal space, how to invite play and grooming, how to share food, and how to integrate and interact with others. Bad herd leaders just keep everyone scared and flighty.

Kelo1
Novice
Posts: 51
Joined: Mon Nov 16, 2020 8:13 pm
Location: Texas

Re: When do you consider a horse dangerous?

Postby Kelo1 » Fri Jan 29, 2021 3:34 pm

Man, maybe I'm an old sourpuss, but life is too short and there are too many good horses out there to invest so much in a dangerous animal.

I empathize with the horse, if he just got the crap lottery of dominant temperament plus physical issues that result in being dangerous. But the fact remains that you have a 1,000 lb animal more than willing to do things that would injure 100 lb humans.

And I empathize with your friend. It would be different if the horse was kept on her private property and she was willing to risk her personal safety. But what about the barn workers, the other boarders, the vet, the farrier? They didn't ask for this. Why are they going to be forced to risk injury or death on this animal?

It's been about 25 years, but I still remember the one time I was boarding and had to go out to the pasture to get my horse and almost got seriously injured by another boarder's a-hole mare who was running at me/striking/kicking and meant business. It ended up that I was OK, just scared out of my mind, but she did break my friend's leg (kicked her) in another incident shortly after my experience. And, yes, my horse was moved immediately after that incident - but that didn't help my friend. So remembering that situation, it probably biases my answer.

That said, reading over the situation as it's been presented, I just don't have sympathy for it. Obviously she can try to find a medical diagnosis or put the horse with a very, very skilled trainer of problem horses to see if that would help, and that would exhaust all the potential solutions, but frankly there are lots of sweet horses out there that could use a devoted home, and it seems to me she is being selfish in endangering other people with this one. After the above options are sorted through I'd just put the horse down for everyone's safety and find another horse.

Lipsmackerpony88
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1354
Joined: Sat Apr 25, 2020 3:17 pm

Re: When do you consider a horse dangerous?

Postby Lipsmackerpony88 » Fri Jan 29, 2021 3:52 pm

Kelo1 I totally agree.

It really makes me thankful that I have worked with a team of vets that are real clear cut with me. I've had to euthanize two young horses so I really am empathetic about how hard it is to do. But each time I had vets be very clear with me about what was actually fair/realistic to the horse comfort wise. And maybe even more importantly the risk that each horse posed to barn staff. I knew I couldn't live with myself if somebody had gotten hurt with one of my horses. More neurological in nature, but still a great risk.

And the fact is that I think some horses pose a risk to anybody no matter how experienced. We are all human and anybody can make a tiny mistake. And for some horses that can't happen...

khall
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 2515
Joined: Mon Oct 12, 2015 1:47 am

Re: When do you consider a horse dangerous?

Postby khall » Fri Jan 29, 2021 4:49 pm

Does anyone remember from udbb the long history of one poster who bred a dangerous WB mare I believe and she did end up putting that horse down after exhausting a long difficult time trying to get that mare safe.

Some I agree just are not worth the effort. I’m lucky that my mare was. She was a fun horse (now retired) to ride and her quirks are fairly easy to deal with.

Koolkat
500 post plus club
Posts: 691
Joined: Mon Oct 12, 2015 2:15 am
Location: Cascade foothills

Re: When do you consider a horse dangerous?

Postby Koolkat » Fri Jan 29, 2021 6:17 pm

khall wrote:Does anyone remember from udbb the long history of one poster who bred a dangerous WB mare I believe and she did end up putting that horse down after exhausting a long difficult time trying to get that mare safe.


I posted a long reply to this thread but took it down. I mentioned that ^^^^ mare (Tessa), as I had a ~3/4 sibling, a gelding, to the horse. I recommended the breeding (Feiner Stern/Trapper line) when my gelding was still on his dam. I, at least, had the advantage of being able to geld my horse. I also had the advantage of being able to keep him at home. He was never sound enough to start (he had a "minor" angular deformity that made it impossible to balance his right front and he developed navicular at 3). He remained relatively pasture sound on previcox until he was 12 and then had to put him down when his navicular went south overnight. He was not a horse you wanted to start a fight with (0-60 in a nanosecond), he did not take corrections well, 17.2 hands of trouble. We finally worked out an agreement, clicker training was a life saver (probably for me, LOL). Regardless, he was a crazy smart, funny, charming horse when his "issues" weren't on the front burner and was the most beautiful pasture ornament ever. I learned a lot from him and loved him.

There were plenty of red flags in the OP, not the least of which was the neuro issue treated with anti-inflammatories. Unfortunately, I think that we are some what hardwired to become more attached to our "children" which require the most care/nurturing. It can be a difficult circle. Personally, I think this horse (w/o a suitable home) in the context of what is written here is probably a strong candidate for euthanasia. His owner has my sympathies.

khall
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 2515
Joined: Mon Oct 12, 2015 1:47 am

Re: When do you consider a horse dangerous?

Postby khall » Fri Jan 29, 2021 6:33 pm

Koolkat that is interesting. I liked Feiner Stern. Would have to go looking at bloodlines to see what his background was. Those F/W lines could be tricky.

My WB lines I have now go back to Gixibar who was well known in the SE and Paparazzo who stood here in Georgia. Paparazzo was by Pilot who could throw difficult temperaments. Gixibar too known for difficult temperaments. My gelding Rip has a challenging yet not dangerous in this sense temperament. Rip and Gaila love people love to hang around people.

LeoApp
Herd Member
Posts: 399
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2015 12:41 pm
Location: Long Island, NY

Re: When do you consider a horse dangerous?

Postby LeoApp » Wed Feb 03, 2021 7:39 pm

Who would want to keep a horse like this? It has nothing to recommend it. It is dangerous, unfriendly, has health issues and is not even rideable? Just looking at this from an objective person's perspective, I would not waste one more cent on this horse. Can you imagine a non-horsey person reading this? I would put the horse to sleep. She owner has done more than a lot of other people would have. I give her credit.

Canyon
500 post plus club
Posts: 650
Joined: Mon Oct 12, 2015 6:29 pm
Location: W CO

Re: When do you consider a horse dangerous?

Postby Canyon » Thu Feb 04, 2021 12:37 am

I wonder how much she is blinded by having bred this horse herself. It sounds like she had such high hopes for him as a performance horse. It can be so hard to let go of those dreams, plus perhaps the guilt of being responsible for his being on this earth, ugghh. But I agree, I would put him to sleep.

Lipsmackerpony88
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1354
Joined: Sat Apr 25, 2020 3:17 pm

Re: When do you consider a horse dangerous?

Postby Lipsmackerpony88 » Thu Feb 04, 2021 5:26 am

Canyon wrote:I wonder how much she is blinded by having bred this horse herself. It sounds like she had such high hopes for him as a performance horse. It can be so hard to let go of those dreams, plus perhaps the guilt of being responsible for his being on this earth, ugghh. But I agree, I would put him to sleep.

Absolutely. Also, I think there is some denial going on too. Emotions can be tough to see through!

Tarlo Farm
500 post plus club
Posts: 866
Joined: Mon Oct 12, 2015 5:20 pm
Location: NW Michigan

Re: When do you consider a horse dangerous?

Postby Tarlo Farm » Mon Feb 22, 2021 9:21 pm

LeoApp wrote:Who would want to keep a horse like this? It has nothing to recommend it. It is dangerous, unfriendly, has health issues and is not even rideable? Just looking at this from an objective person's perspective, I would not waste one more cent on this horse. Can you imagine a non-horsey person reading this? I would put the horse to sleep. She owner has done more than a lot of other people would have. I give her credit.


This. It sounds to me like a bit of a genetic issue as well. There was a local guy breeding some Paints to his SOB of a Paint stallion. Almost every damn one of the offspring picked up that attitude. The guy finally gelded the stud after our one local vet refused to work on him any more.

She'll put him down when he seriously hurts her or someone else. Hope no one gets permanently maimed or killed before that.


Return to “The Observation Lounge/ Cookbook Forum even Hot Topics”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 69 guests