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So we pulled the hind shoes and my horse is doing really well without them.

The hoof wall at the heel is growing really, so well that at 3 weeks post-trim it is taller than the frog I guess and so was getting folded inward and essentially producing a tear in the hoof wall at that point. I called my farrier who came and rasped it and said is was crushed.

I am totally confused. I thought the point of taking him out of shoes was so that the heel hoof wall would NOT be crushed by the shoes. But they are still being crushed! He is finally growing heel hoof wall but it is getting crushed!

It's a no win scenario! WTF?

He moves perfectly without the shoes so there is no "problem" but I am just confused. Should his heel hoof wall be stronger???

Underslung heels are the hardest type of contraction to fix. They take time.
The hoof must be trimmed suitably to allow the heels to stand up as they grow in. It is hard. You must trim the bar, quarters, toe, etc, in the right ways, and get the heel buttress "back" as far as you can without losing too much of the nearly-non-existent heel height (vertical height)... It is a very fine balance and takes some skill.

The lever force of the long, underslung heel pulls new growth in the same direction, the loading is all pushing the heel wall forward, etc - tough cycle to break.

I think you're too focused on the idea of growing the heels longer, but that's not really the idea behind pulling the shoes. The idea is that by removing the shoes the entire hoof will be able to develop into a stronger hoof, and as that happens the heel structures (all of them) will become stronger, and therefore better able to support the horse's weight without bending or cracking.

So fixing the heels isn't about growing a longer hoof wall at the heels, but is about developing thicker, denser frogs, soles, digital cushions and walls, because developing a strong hoof is just as much about developing the supporting structures as it is about the walls.

silk wrote:Underslung heels are the hardest type of contraction to fix. They take time.
The hoof must be trimmed suitably to allow the heels to stand up as they grow in. It is hard. You must trim the bar, quarters, toe, etc, in the right ways, and get the heel buttress "back" as far as you can without losing too much of the nearly-non-existent heel height (vertical height)... It is a very fine balance and takes some skill.

The lever force of the long, underslung heel pulls new growth in the same direction, the loading is all pushing the heel wall forward, etc - tough cycle to break.

I am sorry I wasn't clear.

The hoof wall at the heel is growing straight down, not forward. That is why one side of one heel only (the one that is growing the most) is being bent towards the frog. It is not being bent towards the toe.

That's the best I can explain it. The tubules are not underslung. That's why they are being crushed and there was a small tear where the bent under part met the non-bent-under part. If it was underslung there would be no tear.

kande50 wrote:I think you're too focused on the idea of growing the heels longer, but that's not really the idea behind pulling the shoes. The idea is that by removing the shoes the entire hoof will be able to develop into a stronger hoof, and as that happens the heel structures (all of them) will become stronger, and therefore better able to support the horse's weight without bending or cracking.

So fixing the heels isn't about growing a longer hoof wall at the heels, but is about developing thicker, denser frogs, soles, digital cushions and walls, because developing a strong hoof is just as much about developing the supporting structures as it is about the walls.

Well I see horses with long, straight hoof wall at the heel and that is thought to be good as far as I know. My horse doesn't have that height of hoof wall at the heel and that is not ideal by comparison.

How much of the weight at the heel is supposed to be supported by heel hoof wall versus frog/digital cushion? Maybe this is matter of lack of strength in the hoof wall? Of maybe the digital cushion is compromised?

If I understand you, the other structures in my horse's feet are not healthy enough to support a longer straight heel hoof wall. At what point will I know that they will never do so?

I am not sure what was gained by removing the shoes other than saving some money. I expected more gain.

Tsavo wrote:
Well I see horses with long, straight hoof wall at the heel and that is thought to be good as far as I know. My horse doesn't have that height of hoof wall at the heel and that is not ideal by comparison.

Depends on the hoof. The coronary band at the heel is usually just slightly above ground level on a healthy bare hoof, because what provides the support and protection are short, thick hoof walls combined with dense frogs and soles.

How much of the weight at the heel is supposed to be supported by heel hoof wall versus frog/digital cushion? Maybe this is matter of lack of strength in the hoof wall? Of maybe the digital cushion is compromised?

If the horse had been shod chances are good that all the structures that make up the hoof are weak and now need to become thicker and denser. How long that takes varies. I have some horses that were shod year round for more than 10 years and bounced back to functional bare hooves in 6 months, and others who were only shod for a couple of years but took just as many years to develop a good bare hoof. So much depends on their genetics, the environments they're in, and how we want to ride them.

If I understand you, the other structures in my horse's feet are not healthy enough to support a longer straight heel hoof wall. At what point will I know that they will never do so?

A lot of whether barefoot works for you will depend on what kind of riding you want to do, and how motivated you are to make it work. Hooves are always changing and adapting to their environment, which means that if they're sufficiently challenged they'll continue to get stronger, but if they're not they'll either plateau or get weaker in response to less challenging conditions.

The reason so many use hoof boots is because they can't always control their horses' environments well enough to develop a hoof that is strong enough to hold up to the kind of riding they want to do. So they do what they can to support strong hoof development, and then use boots when their horse needs them.

We run into that problem here. Our horses spend a lot of time on soft, wet ground and then we want to ride them on the gravel roads, and their hooves just aren't hard and dry enough to withstand the stones. So we boot them when they need it.

I am not sure what was gained by removing the shoes other than saving some money. I expected more gain.

It can be a slow process, but IMO, the biggest initial gain from getting rid of the shoes is that the entire hoof starts to load instead of just the parts that are in contact with the shoes.

If you look at healthy hooves, the hoof wall at the heels is most often on the same level as the widest part of the frog and does not protrude past it. IOW, the goal is a stronger hoof wall, not a longer one.

Developing a better hoof takes time. It isn't just removing the shoes and then getting changes in one or two trim cycles. IF I understand what is going on now (heel wall collapsing over but not underrunning) it sounds more like your trim cycles are too long. How often is the horse trimmed? Is the frog touching the ground when farrier leaves?

Either way, you don't want to grow just a healthy "tall" heel wall...you want a healthy HEEL. Very different scenario. I have horses that have frogs so thick and healthy that they appear to have NO heel wall and those are the healthiest feet. The horses with tall hoof wall are normally ones with compromised frogs/digital cushions etc. They can't tolerate lowering heel wall because there is no integrity to the most important part of a heel. More often than not, that tall heel sits forward of the actual heel and puts pressure in all the wrong places.

Is there any possibility of you posting pictures of your horse's feet? Preferably a few angles - weight bearing (camera angle shot from ground level too), non weight bearing showing heel and a little part of toe etc? That way we can get a better idea of the health of the hoof.